Trusses vs Conventional Framing: When?
Hi,
I am trying to find out if there is a rule of thumb for using roof trusses instead of convention framing. Is there a break even point?
I will be managing a job that is a 15X30 one story ell addition coming off the back of a house, so there will be valleys, etc. There is a 13X30 one story ell there already, so we will be stripping off the existing roof and adding to the width. The old exterior walls will be kept, so there may be a bearing wall in place already. (I’ve never been to the site, which I deem a mistake on my employer’s part, and no one else has the gumption to go into the crawl space under the existing ell to see to what extent the existing has rot, that’s why I say “may be”.)
The in-house designer is calling for trusses, and I am wondering if this is really the best way to go. Considering every truss package we order comes through will some type of foul-up, I can’t see there is a time benefit.
So there’s the question. When does conventionally framing the roof make sense, and when do trusses make sense? It’s 23 pairs of rafters plus the tie in.
Thanks
Replies
When the in-house designer says so.
I'm trying to reply to everyone.
First, just because the "in house designer" says so is not a good idea in this case. The guy was a lot of things before he started at the the company I'm at. To put it kindly, there's a good reason why he's working an hour and a half away from where he lives! Anyone who works in the trades know that stories spread fast, and his stories aren't good. Too bad management didn't check his references!
Anyway, he's also the one who goes round and round with the truss orders, sometimes for 3-4 weeks, and there is always something wrong, as I said in my previous post.The trusses have never been there on time for any job, either. Another job is so fouled up it's three weeks behind schedule now, and the crane keeps leaving and coming back, and we are already into our freeze-thaw mud season on dirt roads in New England.
So that's enough cranking.
I can use very experienced framers, or not, depending on what my boss has to say. I know who I'd like to use...
I guess this is a play it by ear type of situation, who gets the framing contract, etc. We only manage, with no hands on people on payroll. (It kills me sometimes)I know the trusses, when ordered correctly, are a huge time saver. I have never ordered them, and know that I will have to go take "truss lessons" from someone else if I get into that part of the management. Isn't there a class for certification? I'll check out the pics from work at lunch time. I have wicked slow dialup here, so if I tried to view now I'd get to work about 3:00pm!Thanks for the information, and please, keep it coming!
Trusses must save enormous net money or else they wouldn't be so widely used. Seldom do you see new construction stick-framed up my way, whether that be a modest addition or a new build. Trusses are king. But there's much more risk of having something go wrong that substantially delays framing if you go with trusses rather than stick framing, just by virtue of the fact that a third party is involved whose only connection with the job is via drawings.
If it were my job, I'd have the trusses sitting on the site, checked and correct, before tearing into someone's house to do a remodel/addition. To do otherwise just puts the job at too much risk of a single-point failure leading to massive delays that throw the whole job off schedule and lead to the existing house being left open to the elements much longer than necessary. Case in point: folks down the street had their home with the roof structure torn off and a tarp thrown over it for about eight weeks. Yeah, somebody screwed up big time in project management, likely doing the tear-in before the trusses had even been ordered, but that wasn't the worst of it. The house was sheathed, roofed, then later roofing and sheathing torn back off to fix something. No idea what exactly that was, obviously something serious, but there's now a truss laying on the front lawn, along with a huge pile of wasted sheathing.
I don't do a lot of building so I don't cannot comment on the cause of problems you have with trusses but ...Any small shop that splits it's roof work into part trusses and part stick framed is foolish. It gets second rate treatment from both the lumberyard and the truss builder. (It also makes it more difficult for the in house people to do a correct job.)In the construction business you want to see the same suppliers on every job you do. And you want the suppliers to know they are important to you.
Heck, I'm a truss guy and I might even stick frame that.
(-:
But trusses would be hard to resist too. The roof would go on faster that way.
If you do go with trusses, I'd suggest ordering them as soon as you sign a contract, and have then sitting there before you begin framing anything. Otherwise if the delivery gets screwed up (as they often do) you'd be left holding the bag.
If you're worried about the trusses coming out wrong, tell them you want to approve shop drawings BEFORE they build them. If they end up being screwed up, you can always go back to stick framing.
.
One more suggestion you may not have thought of - When I do trusses for additions, I always run the overhangs long. That way you can field trip them to line up the fascia if ya need to.
"One more suggestion you may not have thought of - When I do trusses for additions, I always run the overhangs long. That way you can field trip them to line up the fascia if ya need to."Boss,When doing a truss roof for an addition and the top of the truss has to be exactly the same height as the top of the existing rafters because the existing roof will plane straight through with the top of the new addition truss roof. Who goes out to the field and measures the HAP cut height on the existing roof? Also will the exact length of the rafter from the outside plate of the existing house to the ridge be measured to ensure that the truss is the same exact same length and height be measured? Sometimes when I rip the roof off the existing house the existing rafters birdsmouth is cut where the seatcut is 7-8" long and the HAP cut is 3-4" high and the rafter is a 2x6 and I'n using 2x10's or 2x12's and the top of the new rafters have to be even on top with the old as I've described above because it's a continuous roof. So we have to lower the wall height on the new addition and the new addition and existing house will be cathedral.Joe Carola
Edited 2/16/2006 2:14 pm ET by Framer
Man, I HATE measuring trusses that have to line up exactly. Everyone seems to think I have some magic method of measuring things so that the will make the trusses line up perfectly. Some people have even refused to tear off old fascia material or let me into the attic to measure existing stuff. One jerk a couple of weeks ago thought I should bring my own ladders and get up on the roof myself - He didn't want to lift a finger. But to address your question - Around here, the truss salesman generally measures the existing house to try to match things up. But at other plants I've worked at, they refuse to do so - They didn't want the responsability. To get things measured up I prefer to get into the attic first. And I measure from the ceiling up to the ridge to get the overall height. Sometimes if the roof is steep you can worm your way out to the edge of the roof to measure the heel height. (Or HAP, as you called it) But most of the time I have to get outside and have them tear off some fascia material so it can be checked. The span and overhang lengths are generally pretty easy. I also make it a point to ask if they're framing the walls on the addition the same height as the existing house. I've never tried to measure the slope length of the roof. There's generally no way to get an accurate number. The drip edge is in the way at the low end, and it's hard to find the exact center of the ridge cap. I always tell customers that the trusses will NEVER line up perfectly. The rafters may be bowed up or down, or the peak a little off center. I akways suggest setting the first truss 2' away from the addition to allow as much room as possible for the transition. Any dips or bows will have to be feathered in.I've had guys lay a smart level on the roof and tell me to just use that number for the pitch. But I don't think that's anywhere near accurate enough. So I've always refused. (It's not bad to use as a double-check, though).Honestly - I think if we're going to measure stuff like that we should charge for it. But the company I work for doesn't. If we're taking the risk of measuring something wrong, why shouldn't we get paid for it?So is that more than you wanted to know?(-:
I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day but I couldn't find any.
"So is that more than you wanted to know?"Boss,That's exactly what I wanted to here because all of this has to be taken into consideration when trying to match an existing roof. The sagging of the existing roof is another story but when framing new addition rafters to match the existing rafters we have to set the new ridge at the same height and the rafter length from the outside plate to the ridge has to be the same as the existing rafters and what I do is run the overhang long and then set a temporary rafter in place and then scribe the existing plumbcut and level cut onto the new rafter so that the overhangs are exact.I've been on jobs that were stick framed and I was called in to fix what the bozo framers did before me and said that they couldn't get the overhangs to to match which is a bunch a bull because you can always get them to match exactly if you take the time to to it right.Like you said that you'll send the trusses with the overhangs longer which makes perfect sense for an addition. The other companies that you worked for who didn't want the responsibility to take all those measurements, did they want the GC to do all that?One thing that I can think of as far as cathedral trusses are concerned is when you have an existing clipped ceiling (half cathedral and half level ceiling) where the existing setcut is 3-1/2" and the bottom of the rafter is flush to the inside of the 2x4 wall and that's the cathedral and sheetrocked part that will go up to the level part.If you make a truss for that it will be a scissor truss and the top of that scissor truss will be flush with the top of the existing rafters but the bottom part of the scissor truss will have another pitch, I think you said one time about 2-3 pitches different. Taking that into concideration that would throw off the angle of the existing rafters and therefore the existing rafters would have to be furred down to match the lower pitch of the scissor truss. Does that make sense to you?So if that's the case if I were to bid a job like that where the scissor trusses were specked I would have to plan on bidding the framing of the existing rafters to match the new scissor truss lower pitch.Joe Carola
Edited 2/16/2006 3:54 pm ET by Framer
I've never tried to match scissor trusses to an existing vaulted ceiling. But you're right - You'd either have to match the outside or the inside - You couldn't do both.
Sometimes you have to look reality in the eye and deny it. [Garrison Keillor]
Trusses are a beautiful thing. I had to do a number of them in statics with the aid of a calculator. Most of the trusses were designed long ago....before calculators..they used slipsticks..er..slide rules..my hat is off to those engineers. Boss probably uses some "puter program" that spits out how to make them..(not sayin Boss couldnt do it longhand) Trusses just allow us to span distances that otherwise wouldnt be possible. And you can frame a roof in a very short time .
"I had to do a number of them in statics with the aid of a calculator."
Actually, they aren't designed like that anymore. They've come up with ways of making it more and more complicated all the time.
"Boss probably uses some "puter program" that spits out how to make them"
Yup.
"(not sayin Boss couldnt do it longhand)"
I can't. Don't have a clue how to. You'd have to be one heck of a mathemitician to understand how they do it now.
If you're good, you will be assigned all the work.
If you're really good, you will get out of it.
Boss,
Id have to agree with just about every one of your posts in this thread.
Framer, I dont think there is any way to match a truss to a cathedral ceiling like you are talking. In that case I'd just match what the existing framing is. Insulaiton is key in these type of frames, not that that has anything to do with framing.
As for the original post, Id have to ssay that if I had time to order the trusses and get them on the job, with a roof like that id do it in a heartbeat. 15ft span? 2 guys would finish that in no time at all. Stack 'em, flip 'em, sheet 'em. Now dont get me wrong, in my opinion the only "fun" part of framing is figuring out a nice custom chopped up roof and everything that goes along with it, but with a simple gable like this one its a no brainer.
Thats all
Matt
"Framer, I dont think there is any way to match a truss to a cathedral ceiling like you are talking. In that case I'd just match what the existing framing is. Insulaiton is key in these type of frames, not that that has anything to do with framing."But what do you do if the plans call for a truss in my situation. The truss can't match the existing rafter at the bottom just at the top which is the steeper pitch of the truss and also the pitch of the existing roof. Therefore you would have to do as I said which is the opposite of what you said.You will have to reframe the existing cathedral ceiling down even with the bottom of the lower pitched section of the scissor truss because the bottom of the scissor truss can't match the existing frame because it's already lower by 2-3 pitches.That would cause big problems if the existing room is a kitchen with coffered ceiling or some kind of decorative beams. You would have to ruin the whole section of the existing house. This is a situation where you can't use trusses unless you redue everything else which makes no sense at all.Joe Carola
Joe,
i completely agree with you.
Why not discuss with the architect your problem, and even the HO, because noone wants to teardowwn ceilings if they dont have to.
It would be cheaper for all involved if you mirrored your new framing to the way the old framing is.
Matt
Boss,I worked for a guy in IL who used a Smart Level to order some trusses. Of course, the design required the roof to plane perfectly.The rafters had a slight sag and the pitch was about 4.5/12. When the Smart Level read 4/12 near the exterior wall all was thought to be good. Unfortunately, when the trusses arrived we found out differently.Lots of furring to fix that one.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Boss, I don't blame your for not wanting the responsibility.
As a framer, I don't want you measuring the existing roof either. I want to do it.
I have done a few remods for a fellow in recent years. Since we know were going to do the carpentry, we go do the heel measurements for him. The one he masured himself, he screwed up. Luckily he screwed up low and we just had to laminate the tops with a 2x4 on the flat. Since then, he calls us and lets us measure.
One other time, the garage roof didn't tie in to anything. The trusses were there when we got there. They were short by eight inches! The truss company had the new set out there the next day.
blue
Joe,Often we run up on situations like you described. Usually there is a beam or some other break that allows us to not have to match both the ceiling and the roof. When figuring the stud length I'll just measure the HAP of the trusses and work backwards.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"Often we run up on situations like you described. Usually there is a beam or some other break that allows us to not have to match both the ceiling and the roof. When figuring the stud length I'll just measure the HAP of the trusses and work backwards."Jon,What happens when you run into the situation like I've described with no beam or break? I've done many additions like this where I think trusses will add a lot more work in this situation because they will not match the existing rafters on the bottom.I never use trusses but I think that they are limited when it comes to additions and tying into an existing roof. Or you just have more work to do to get them right.Joe Carola
Edited 2/16/2006 6:05 pm ET by Framer
"Considering every truss package we order comes through will some type of foul-up"
Whose fault is that?
I never have gotten a truss package without first getting a submittal of drawings from the truss engineer. I read and check everything on the drawings, and if I don't see all the information I need, I ask for more. I try to catch and correct every single error.
Unless we are talking about absolute simplicity, this step cannot be skipped. Otherwise, it's foul up time.
Foul ups for me at truss erection time are too expensive and too much of a headache for me to let them happen. It is exacting work to clear all questions and issues to get a complex truss job right when it goes into shop fabrication, but it is worth it.
The last roof system we did included 56 different truss types. The submittal and approval go 'round took two weeks and probably 20 emails, each with .pdf drawings attached, but the job went without a hitch.
"...getting a submittal of drawings from the truss engineer."
I don't like to hear people use the term "truss engineer." Trusses aren't designed by engineers the vast majority of the time.
Truss designers are most often just rednecks like me - Hired for their looks, not what they know.
(-:
Do not argue with whomever is packing your parachute.
Full attic space would be one reason, cathedral ceiling to conform with the slope of the roof, cathedral ceiling with dormers.
Theres no rule of thumb but a careful consideration of the various reasons for using trusses, or using conventional needs to be done.
"Considering every truss package we order comes through will some type of foul-up"
If your trusses are showing up consistently with errors, either start supplying better information, start checking the drawings more carefully before running production, or find another truss supplier.
Perhaps the people ordering and installing your trusses aren't familiar enough with them and don't supply the right parameters or the onsite guys don't know how to accomodate the trusses once their shipped. I've only built a handful of fully conventional roof systems in 30 years and that means I've handled a lot of trusses. Occasionally we have problems but the key to dealing with truss problems is to identify the problems before the walls are built, before the header are installed and before the overhangs are buit. Once you identify a problem, you can tweak your frame to accomodate the trusses, not the other way around. If tweaking is impossible, the truss company will send out a replacement in two days.
Obviously a set of ordinary gable trusses on a 15 x 30 isn't going to take any extraordinary amount of engineering. The critical element is wall height and heel height. If you dictate those wrong, the trusses will be built "wrong" and you'll be complaining again.
I'd order trusses.
blue
I'm a stick framing guy. I love every step of the process, so my answer is totally biased :-)
For us, there aren't many roofs that it makes sense to use trusses. Basically for us the lengths have to be longer than 26' to switch to trusses and that doesn't happen very often. We have a frame coming up that will have 32' rafters and we'll use the Trusjoist product for those.
Since we stick frame almost everything, and I have invested a lot of my own time learning how and because we typically vault quite a bit and frame ceilings to differentiate our product from the competitors, have forklifts w/platforms, the pros far out weigh the cons.
For simple gable roofs, we gang cut the rafters in no time. For an addition like the one you mentioned, we could cut that roof pretty quickly.
Another factor to consider is that the more cut up a roof is, the more overframing you'll have to do.
What kind of stick framing experience do you or your guys have? I'll take lots of pics when we use the TrusJoist product. Here are some pics of the roofs and ceilings we did in the last year.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/96465276.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/96465534.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/127782311.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/99842022.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/108749475.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4541023/118330358.jpg
we typically vault quite a bit and frame ceilings to differentiate our product from the competitors
Tim, just about every truss job we do has vaulted ceiling, trays, studios, cathedrals and sometimes a combination of all of the above!
I would shoot myself if I had to install I joist for rafters. We had to do that on one big job (a 12 unit townhouse) and the amount of wasted time is unbearable and a huge waste of precious labor dollars compared to how a simple trussed roof wouldhave went in.
Your lack of experience with trusses leads you to believe that they aren't as effiecient as what you and your crew does, but if you ever were up against a crew that knew how to use them and you were building the same house, you'd quickly see how inefficient the conventional roof system really is.
It's also nice to eliminate all those interior bearing points and bearing walls.
blue
You are correct about my lack of experience with trusses. But what you don't appreciate is my experience with stick framing. I posted a pic of this roof before http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/129589162.jpg That took us 1 day to cut and stack the flexibility afforded us the ability to frame this ceiling http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/127782311.jpg Guess what? This house sold 2 days after the ceiling was framed. The buyers brother came out who is in the trades commercially and told Jasen that is the finest framing he's ever seen.
I bet you could have rolled hip trusses and sheathed in a day. Am I close? This roof took 1 day for 4 guys to stack and one day for 2 guys to sheathe. So what is the $ difference between that roof stick framed and trussed? What is the added benefit we gained by differentiating that house from the competition? What is the difference in labor and materials? What will we save on call backs here in the PacNW regarding drywall settling and cracks?
Trusses with vaults cost more right? We have the room to build that ceiling and didn't have to pay for ceiling joists for that room. With trusses, you'd pay for the vault and then I'd have to frame that ceiling if that's what the boss or customer wanted.
You are right though, I don't have much truss experience and as I said earlier, I'm biased
Edit: We aren't going to be using I-joists for rafters.
Edited 2/15/2006 11:47 pm ET by Timuhler
Tim, that particular roof looks to be something like 26' x 22' including the overhangs.
A truss guy would build that pan ceiling right into the trusses.
We'd have a hip set package on both ends. The top of the hipset would be about 10' or so. That means we'd have about six jacks to nail on to prep the hipset. It would take about 30 minutes per end including the breakdown of the truss package.
So, in about an hour, I'd have the package ready to set. 1 hour
There would be approximately 12 trusses to set. We do them two at a time and on a small set I could easily set it myself if I was receiving, but I'll concede that I'm much lazier than in the past and would let a guy help me. It takes about 3 to 5 minutes for the crane to cycle.
That roof set would have eight cycles of five minutes. That's a total of 40 minutes with three guys. I'll figure another hour for three guys. 3 hours
After the roof was set, we'd have to fill in the hipset package on the ends. Since its so small, I'll figure a half hour per corner for one man. Thats two hours. 2 hours
The hipset will need to be extended over the stepped down trusses on each end. Again, since it's small, I'll figure a half hour each end for one guy. Some truss companys send a truss to lay over the step downs, but some don't. We can build them on the deck but it's just as easy to do in in place. I'll figure another hour 1 hour
The pan ceiliing will require some finishing on the corners and on the interior sidewall of that room. Judging from the complxity of what you've done, I'll estimate that it would take me 3 hours working alone to do the fill-in. I don't work so fast anymore or I'd be thinking closer to two hours. 3 hours.
I've never had to bird block in between the trusses so I can't offer an estimate of that aspect of the framing.
I would have no problem bidding that roof at 12 hours since my estimate totals only 11. Our $65 per hours includes the use of our crane and skytrack to make our installation as easy as possible.
I don't know how fast we'd sheath that roof. In my 30's I would have bet the family jewels that I would do that alone in one 8 hour shift. Sometimes I had to beg for my jewels back because I was always an optimistic soul. Instead of the eight, it might have taken me ten. The guys nowadays don't have any clue what the word hustle means. I'm thinking that it would take a conservative 16 hours to sheath it. Since all our framing on trusses is 24"oc, we would be using clips.
So, that roof, framed and sheathed and the interior done would take approximately 28 hours total with trusses.
Oh yeah, I better add a couple of hours for those useless hurricane clips....I keep forgetting because I've built so many houses without them.
30 hours, that's my bid but I really think it could be done in 24. I know for a fact that my old framing buddy Forest and I would "gitter dun"! Neither of us carried cellphones though....
The important thing to note that there isn't any separation from the pack. The vaulted ceiling is routine for truss designers.
This picture shows a low pitched hipset, that is ready to send up, that spans a great room of about 24' wide or so. It doesn't have the step in it like your panset does, but it would be easily added if the plans called for it.
blue
Edited 2/16/2006 10:34 pm ET by blueeyeddevil
Blue,
Thanks for the post. It is interesting to see how you bid.
By the way, that building was 26' front to back excluding overhangs and it was 38' long excluding overhangs. There could be another room up there and if it was my house, I'd have done it. It was an 8-12 by the way, or 33.69° :-)
Interesting threadd...
When my shop was repaired twice.. ...both times new scissor trusses had to be made to match the outside 8/12 slope....and the inside 4/12 slope.....
Teh truss company came out....measured the HAP...took exact measurements of the existing trusses.....and both times they were matched perfectly. I had used a different contractor the second time on my shop due to availability....and he used a different truss company.
I was very impressed how both the roof and ceiling lines planed in right on.
Stan
"Teh truss company came out....measured the HAP...took exact measurements of the existing trusses.....and both times they were matched perfectly. "
Trusses are generally easy to match up with. They're generally made to a specific pitch. And heel heights are pretty well standardized.
An invisible man marries an invisible woman. The kids were nothing to look at either.
Tim, we must be talking about different roofs. The roof I'm talking about is this one:
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/129589162.jpg
I derived my dimensions but counting your rafters. On the long side, I counted 19 rafters. I just assumed that you put your rafters on 16" oc.
If the building is indeed 40 feet, then I'd have to add 7 more crane lifts. That would be three lifts, because when we're swinging in the last group, we would send the third and just lean it while we dealt with the others, unless they were large or unwieldy. +.75 hour
The hipsets would takes slightly longer because there would be an extra jack or two. Add ten more minutes each side. +.3 hour
Add another ten for the upper framing to cover the stepdowns. Of course there's extra plywood to deal with. +.3hour
Actually that particular roof now looks like a money maker. I wouldn't be too excited about that little 26 x 22, but a 40 by 28 walkable roof is a true money maker.
Too bad everyone can get them done fast....they take all the profit out of it and bid it below cost, "just to get their foot in the door".
By the way Tim, I don't bid that way. 99% of my "bids" are done by flipping through the plans. In most cases, the houses are routine and I know what it will cost.
Incidently, we don't bid on houses that require us to do the conventional framing. We know from experience that the builders that use that system are very cheap. We know that we will be 40 to 100% more than the builder is willing to pay, so we don't even bother looking at the plans. That's just a North Detroit area thing.
blue
Edited 2/17/2006 10:12 pm ET by blueeyeddevil
I just assumed that you put your rafters on 16" oc.
As I would say on the jobsite to one of the guys "Heck no baby doll, those be 24" oc" :-)
I'll do some checking around, but about 7 or 8 years ago I was told that for stick framing, the going rate in our area (very local, I don't know about the rest of the state) was $1.50 or $2.00 a sq ft on top of the avg rate which is I think about $5 a foot right now for a house like that pic.
I'll see some guys tomorrow who would know and find out what the rates are. As I've said before, we are "in house" framers/siders/foundation/flatwork/trim guys so we work hourly, but the framing subs we've tried in the last 5 years have required more fixing that we might as well have framed the houses to begin with.
Why do you think the builders in your area who are cheap stick frame? My understanding has always been that it requires a higher skill level or experience level to stick frame and thus a higher cost and most builders use trusses because the labor can be less skilled.
Long before I was out of elementary school we (company) started stick framing. My uncle was a great framer who had gone through the apprenticeship and my framing "mentor" Dave had an interest in stick framing, so that's what they started doing. I don't recall exactly why, but I'll find out. Back then we had 4 or 5 framing crews going (late 80's) and were putting up a lot of houses.
Why do you think the builders in your area who are cheap stick frame?
Because a truss package on a 1500 sf ranch might cost $ 300 more than sticks and they can get the framers to build it for the same price.
It's a misconception that it takes more skill to do a stick frame. Those of us that use trusses efficiently have all the skills and knowledge it takes to do a stick frame, but we apply those attributes to the different set of skills used in setting trusses.
Cutting rafters might be exciting to a lot of guys but I don't get any particular charge out of it. I've done a few with those 28' 2x6's and quite frankly I think it's crazy. That stuff is too heavy to work with manually, but too light for a machine. In the end, the spans are effectively cut down using snow braces (purlins) or kneewalls anyways.
The biggest factor of truss vs conventional is in the design. You claim that you have a competitie edge because you use conventional, but I know that is a mistatement. In fact, the people using trusses have a very significant advantage in designing spacious and elegant elements in elaborate custom homes. Conventional framing is limited by the spans of their members, while truss configuration is almost limitless. I've set 80' long spans of trusses that clearspanned a building. They had 40' piggies! How would you frame that conventionally?
blue
"It's a misconception that it takes more skill to do a stick frame. Those of us that use trusses efficiently have all the skills and knowledge it takes to do a stick frame, but we apply those attributes to the different set of skills used in setting trusses."Blue,There's different ways of looking at that. When you say that those of you that use trusses efficiently have all the skills and knowledge to stick frame is not necessarily true at all. For a guy like you it is because you've learned how to stick frame roofs first as far as I know.From what I read here and other forums the young guys out there that start out with trusses and only use trusses for roofs have no knowledge of figuring rafters. What skills do they have if someone gave them a set of plans to cut up a roof with 5 or 6 different pitches on them and all true valleys and cathedral ceilings? You can because you've done it. All these guys know is that they get a truss package and nail them into place but they don't know how the package was figured out.Me, I never install trusses and I have in the past but nothing fancy. I'm skilled enough to cut almost any roof but am I skilled enough to set trusses, NO! Can I be, YES!In my mind if you take a framer that's been stick framing roofs and put him on trusses it will be a hell of a lot easier for them to do then if you put a framer who's never cut a rafter and just nails trusses every day will be a hell of a lot harder to cut up a complicated roof and where does the knowledge of stick framing a roof come in when they never cut rafters?Correct me if I'm wrong but when you get trusses for a roof, all the rafters are figured out already, right? Unless you might have to cut in a small hip or valley for an overhang but what other rafters are you figuring out that you can send a framer that strictly installs trusses out that would be skilled enough to stick frame a house with a complicated roof?Joe Carola
Joe, my opinion is based on the fact that around here, we put all our overhangs and exterior trim on before we raise the wall. The first step in determining where all the parts are going to be nailed is to take the truss package and reverse "engineer" it. Sometimes, it's quite a complicated puzzle and if a guy doesn't have the skill and knowledge base to do that, he isn't going to be able to figure out where everything goes.
Once a guy has enough knowledge to reverse engineer a truss package, he's got plenty enough knowledge to lay a couple of marks on a board.
In my apprenticeship, I worked on all truss installations. Every year, we might run into one house that was stickframed, so I really can't say I cut my teeth on conventional framing systems.
One thing that we never saw was speed squares. I never let my apprentices carry or use a speed square and after they became proficient with carpentry and had the option to use one they didn't. I don't know of anyone that I trained that uses a speed square today.
blue
Those of us that use trusses efficiently have all the skills and knowledge it takes to do a stick frame, but we apply those attributes to the different set of skills used in setting trusses.
I disagree. Trusses and stick framing are apples and oranges. There is a different mindset. Obviously there is an overlap, both are parts of framing, and both involve many of the same principles, but each requires its own basically unique approach.
I should be more specific, anyone can hack a roof together. It's been happening for a long time. You've done it, I've done, and lots of other guys have done it. BUT to calculate a roof on the ground, especially a really cutup bastard, requires a a tremendous amount of mental horsepower. I'm not talking about taking weeks to frame a roof. I'm talking about calculating it, cutting & stacking it in a short amount of time and having it all work. That's not something that someone who has used trusses 99% of the time, the other 1% being the overframing, can just up and decide to do and do it right.
In the past you've talked about eyeballing the cuts on rafters. That is NOT a successful way to stick frame an entire roof.
Here is a house we framed last May. I've posted quite a few pics of it because I am really proud of it. On top of doing a good job, it was the most fun framing I think I've had. I'll try and get some more pics this week because the trim will finally be done this week I think. None of these pics are finished
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/96465231.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/96465266.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/109772535.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/96465509.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/109772539.jpg
I calculated every single piece of that roof, except for some of the jacks that go from the hip onto the overframing. That includes the octagons and the shed roof in the back and all the broken hips and king hip to valley jacks. We did not use stringlines to plane things in, we did not hold rafters up to run long and tell us where things go. I used the math the way the books, articles and guys here and JLC have posted. Oh yeah, and my trusty CM and 12" speed square.
That roof is a 12-12 and the highest ridge was 30' off the deck. We built NO scaffolding to get up to that ridge. In fact, we built no scaffolding anywhere.
I guess what I'm saying and taking way too long to say, is that just because someone has used trusses and used them well for 30 years does not mean they could come in and frame this house. You can't learn over night the techniques and understanding to cut a roof like this. That's just a fact. I know, because I've spent the last 4 years really intensely studying stick framing. No one can learn it over night.
By the way, the fastest and most efficient way to cut a roof like that is to know the math. A rafter square can be used and it would work, making drawings would work, but the Construction Master is the most efficient way to cut a roof like that, and a speed square is the best layout tool for a roof like that. 12-12 is easy. Its just the 45° on the square.
Also, I think it is stupid to use 28' 2x6s. I've never understood why some roofs are sticked that way. So I agree with you on that.
You claim that you have a competitie edge because you use conventional, but I know that is a mistatement. That isn't a mistatement at all. I'm clearly speaking about my competitors, not yours, not some that build requiring the spans you go on to talk about.
The FACT is, that the flexibility that stick framing offers us (that's my company) allows us to frame details that no one around here frames. That includes, hip tray ceilings, octagon tray ceilings, cove ceilings, barrel vaults, bonus rooms in the attic, etc. So it isn't a misstatement at all. Who did you think I was talking about? Who do you think I compete with?
while truss configuration is almost limitless. I've set 80' long spans of trusses that clearspanned a building. They had 40' piggies! How would you frame that conventionally?
I would frame that with trusses. It could be done with conventional framing now. Check out these pics of some townhouses. We were just driving by one day and I had to get some pics
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/129798070.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/129798067.jpg
Tim, those are great pictures of a great roof. Congrats to you for being able to calculate it with your CM.
I've done roofs like that, but I've done them with my $4.99 Walmart, dual mode calculator. I own a CM but I wouldn't pick it up to cut that roof! Nor would I choose a speed square.
I have cut the entire roof packages like that on the ground, calculating all the parts. When I was young, I found it interesting too. Now, I would pass, mainly because I'm not going to get paid the proper amount to do that. If you pay me right, I'll do it.
I wouldn't calculate the bays hips though. My method of doing those is just too fast. Someday I'll share my secret but at this stage of your career, I can tell your not interested! LOL. I also wouldn't put so many "real" valleys in, unless I was forced too. I don't like them because the roofs are weaker than if you'd lay a "california" roof over it. Each situation is different and I'm not judging what you've done as being better or worse. I know it takes more time to do the true ones and I'm not interested in lengthening my time on the jobsites.
while truss configuration is almost limitless. I've set 80' long spans of trusses that clearspanned a building. They had 40' piggies! How would you frame that conventionally?
I would frame that with trusses. It could be done with conventional framing now.
I'm curious about how you'd find an 80' long bottom ceiling rafter? Most of the stuff I see would sag all the way till it touched bottom. What would you use...2 x 96's?
Blue,
I was reading the 40' part, not the 80' part. I know LVL, LSL, Glulams, Paralams, etc come in lengths up to 60', but I can't imagine a roof framed with them.
If it was my house and I had the money, I'd use timber trusses. From the inside, they look so great, but if for some crazy reason, I had spans like that, trusses would be the way to go. Maybe not for the whole house, but for those sections at least.
I agree with you apples and oranges. I use trusses on every house I build and couldn't imagine stick framing a whole house as the one in the pictures you posted. I stick frame valleys and porches whuppidity-do. I learned with trusses and am used to them, had I learned with stick framing thats the way I'd do it. I stick framed an octagon roof yesterday like the one in your picture on the back of the house and it was one board at a time with lots of stringlines and straight edges. It turned out great. Trusses save me time but I want to get into stick framing my roofs because its not about the amount of time I spend on a job its how it looks and how it makes me feel when I see it in the rearview mirror. I can build stairs with winders and circular stairs fairly easy but would tear my hair out trying to figure out that roof.
Anyway good work, really like the pictures keep them coming. I'd give my business over to my #2 guy and come to work on your site or Joe Carolas for $8 an hour if I were located anywhere near you guys, just to learn how framing roofs should be done right.
Thanks for the comments. That roof looks harder than it is. Being 12-12 the angles are easy to remember. There are certain tricks to stacking a roof like that, that you figure out over time, but the calculating part is all there in Will Holladay's book, including the octagons.
I'm always reading something about roof framing. The forum posts mostly at JLC and Joe Fusco's forum have helped a ton. I'm with you though, I'd go work with someone like Joe Carola, Joe Fusco, Ken Drake, Tom and some that I'm forgetting just to learn. I don't feel like I'm totally confident yet, and that's why I always read everything I can get my hands on before starting the roof.
We've got one coming up that is fairly cut up and a 9-12 that I'll post lots of pics of and one that we'll start in a couple of weeks that we'll use TrusJoist LSL on because the commons are 32' long. That should be fun.
Nice pics!
I wish I could have a lift like that on my houses. Prolly save me some extra heartbeats while standing on top of a 2x4 wall pullin up 26' 2x12 dug firs. Pullin 'em up's not the hard part, leanin 'em to the guys on the scaffold at the ridge is.
As soon as i figure out how to post pics ill post some of my own.
Matt
You know the Ingersoll-Rand VR90B is just a great machine. I'm not sure which is in the pics, but I think it's probably the 1056.
If you search the net for the VR90B, you can find them for about $35K and let me tell you, even the smallest jobsites we've been on, it is still worth having. That thing will climb has a lot of room to level out and has been Mr. Reliable for the last I think 3 1/2 years we've had it. It's a 1998 and we bought it Oct 2002, so it already had been used for quite a bit. I would strongly suggest looking into one if you frame full time. I'd drive a cheap truck and have a machine if I had to choose.
I'll take some pics of the site we are on now to show you what I mean by small.
I'd drive a cheap truck and have a machine if I had to choose.
I'd ride a mule to work and have a machine, if I had to choose.
blue
You are correct about my lack of experience with trusses. But what you don't appreciate is my experience with stick framing
Impassioned craftsman vs. pragmatic busines$man. One of you is on the endangered species list, the other is becoming the new reality in contracting. I still have to cast my lot with the dying breed. Keep those pics coming - nice work!!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
k's rule of thumb
No trusses unless you can't use conventional framing due to design constrants.
k
A truss roof puts all the roof, ceiling, and roof bracing load on the outside walls.But a conventional roof has additional load on the inside wall and consequently the interior foundation. this load includes the ceiling load the roof load and any bracing going to the ridges hips and valleys and probably a mid span brace on the rafters.
the labor on the conventional roof will be more, of course. But don,t forget the additional material and labor of bracing the conventional roof. Where 90% of the bracing is built in to the truss roof, the stick framed roof requires lots of bracing[and in some cases, bracing on the bracing!]
some times the interior ceiling treatments make conventional framing a necessity but other wise a prefer truss roofs.
I have worked on hundreds of truss roof homes. mistakes in the design or size or quantity were extremely rare and were usually my fault!
one draw back to trusses is the 24" centers. put them on 16" if you wish.
also truss uplift can be a problem. but there are successful techniques to combat this problem
MORE TASTE!
LESS FILLING!
Sam, get out of our thread.
Go argue about business with Frenchy!
blue
Blue,
He won't play with me anymore. sniff
SamT
What size house are we talking? We don't put any interior bracing on our roofs because we can make the spans with 2x10s on avg, 2x12's on a few of the roofs. Also, we frame on 24" centers. For the style and size of houses we build, 2000-3500sq, we don't have any intetior bracing of the rafters. But we don't have snow loads, and our loading is pretty moderate. For the house I posted pics of in the post to Blue, that was nearly all 2x10, LVL for the valleys and hips. I did use LVL for a few of the rafters on the back side because I think some of the commons were 29' plus tail, so I used 9 1/2" LVL.
I agree that there can be less waste with trusses, but in the roofs we've truss, by the time all the bracing goes inside the webbing, there is a fair amount of material. here are a few of the houses we've sticked
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/127700060.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/127583766.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/127580258.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/97367816.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/54405170.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/128880996.jpg
"this load includes the ceiling load the roof load and any bracing going to the ridges hips and valleys and probably a mid span brace on the rafters. the labor on the conventional roof will be more, of course. But don,t forget the additional material and labor of bracing the conventional roof."Wooddoug,If we frame a gable or hip roof with ceiling joists we don't have to brace ridges, hips or rafters at all. Valleys we will brace under on top of an interior wall. The only thing we have to do is put collar ties on. I framed many roofs with 24' rafters and no bracing. Some houses or additions I frame will have a wall maybe at 4' to 7' because that space will be living space and not attic space but it's not because we have to do any additional bracing.The advantages of using trusses is that you can go longer spans without having interior bearing walls or special beams which is a plus. There's a lot of roofs that I see that can't be used with trusses or tying into existing homes especially when it comes to having different pitches and vaulted ceilings with true valleys.Joe Carola