Hi all –
Wanted to hear some opinions on what may be causing a strange problem with a 2-ply LVL beam in my garage supporting a second floor exterior end wall above.
The beam is a 2-ply 1-3/4″ x 14″ deep LVL spanning the entire width of the garage which is about 28′. The beam is supported by a steel column in the middle. It is located approximately right in the middle of the garage ceiling. One side of the ceiling having the second story living space above, the other half has standard attic space above. The second floor joists resting on the beam span around 12′-0 or so
I happened to look up at the drywall-wrapped beam a few months ago and noticed that the top of the beam appears out of plumb by a 1/2″ – 1″ in some places. I moved to one of the side walls to site down to beam and notice that for the most part the beam is plumb at the ends where they are pocketed into the side walls (no real surprise there). Most of the “twist” per say appears in the middle above the column. No sag whatsoever of the beam or joists
Anyone ever experience this? know what can cause this? I wouldnt think LVL would have much movement. I think I have a few gut feelings about what could be causing this, but thought I would ask you all first. From my past experiences on this forum, I always get some well-thought out opinions and advice. Thanks in advance!
Replies
Is the column out of plumb?
Any sign of cracked sheetrock? If the sheetorck is not cracked, it could be the beam had a twist when it was installed.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
nope, column is perfectly plumb.....one of the pockets is showing a bit of drywall cracks around the beam and below. BUT, i think its where a drywall joint is. The other side doesnt have any cracks at all.
It is ENTIRELY possible I did not notice the beam being warped or twisted before it was wrapped in drywall. Also, i am sure some of the corner beads on the underside edges of the beam are a bit out of whack as it is a long straight run of sorts.
I also thought about the possibility of the joists not being toenailed adequately to the top of the beam, but I would think that the weight and drywall ceiling would keep that in check somewhat.
Thanks for the reply.
It sounds like the beam is not flush framed. My next question is what is laterally Bracing the beam? There is living space on one side of the beam and not on the other. Maybe the beam is in torsion because of eccentric loading? Do the joists splice over the beam or are they continuous?
To my knowledge, LVL beams should not twist in the same mannor as conventional lumber.
Edit: Does the top of the beam lean toward the living space or away from it?
"Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you though."
Edited 3/3/2006 4:58 pm ET by xosder11
Never thought about that....It leans towards the living space. Funny enough, as I have wrote these posts, I have browsed throught my pics and came upon a few showing the framing. Enjoy the photos once I post, because I happen to see an owl perched up thereLet me get the pics posted.....
Edited 3/4/2006 12:14 am ET by Jg
Pics below showing framing and the owl !!!
Edited 3/3/2006 5:23 pm ET by Jg
Nice looking house. Crazy looking owl. He looks mean.
Where the heck did you find that LVL? Looks like it came out of the bottom of a swamp. They all look like that where you are?View Image
Thanks!
It was in some dirt after a brief period of rain :)
That's one badass owl. He looks like he's pizzed off too. Nice looking house though, I can see why he wanted to hang around. Looks like your lvl saw a rainy season during construction. I'm gonna say it was always twisted. At any rate, don't be a "worry wart", keep your eye on it, but more importantly, keep your eyes open for that scary looking owl.
"Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh, it looks good on you though."
Thanks! He was really curious and followed me around the garage. He left right at dusk. I got up on a ladder (like a dumb***) and photod him from about 2 feet away
By the way, nice quote ! I love caddyshack. Just finished watching it for the hundredth time despite my wifes wishes!
In pic 0643 it looks like the near-side floor joists are just barely long enough to lap over the lvl.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
If I remember correctly, sit flush to the outer (ceilig joist) side of the beam and then some 2x was scabbed on to the floor joists, headered off and then the ceiling joists were hangered onto that. The only thing I can think of is the ceiling joists were a bit short and rather than do the right thing and take them back, they improvised a bit. Still not sure that could affect much with just attic load above. What do you think?
Cool Owl.
Based on those pics, I don't see how any forces are acting to tip that LVL. Because of it's length, and because it was wet and probably soggy and not straightened when set, it probably was installed like that.
I wouldn't worry, but I'd keep an eye on it.
blue
Thank you all so much for the comments! I think it has put my mind at ease. I will do the right thing though and keep and eye on it.
Kudos to everyone on here for taking the time to answer peoples posts JG
Jg
Where did the nailing schedule for that beam come from? How was it derived?
I quite honestly dont know....typically, i see them nailed together in the field with a framing nailer...not sure but i would think three nails on each side every 12" to 16" ? I may be wrong.
I think that's ashort eared owl, if you're interested in knowing. Wouldn't stake my life on it, though.They eat mice, so I wouldn't scare him off if you can help it.
Love is like a roller coaster: when it's good you don't want to get off, and when it isn't... you can't wait to throw up.
Boss,
Too bad I havent seen him recently. I see owls around here maybe once a year at most.I found a really cool website about owls and talked to the webmaster. He identified it as an eastern screech owl (whatever that means !)It was a neat experience to say the least. It wasnt very tall, so probably fairly young.
If it was an eastern schreech owl, that's as big as they get - About 6 or 8" tall. But it doesn't look like the screech owls around here. That's why I thought is might be a short eared owl.
When we are young we try to hide our poverty. When we grow older we brag about it.
hmmm you may be right boss. I will check my email from the so called expert and get to the bottom of it. Thanks!
Hey boss, i pulled up some info and your right. they dont get very big.
I found two pics one in the "grey" phase and one in the "red" phase. funny though, some of the pics on the internet look just like the ones I took and some look a bit different? hmmmm....cool looking though
I agree with what FastEddie had to say.
In addition, I highly doubt that the twisting is the result of movement within the LVL. LVL's are highly stable and resistant to 'curing' or seasonal expansion and/or contraction. But there seems to be a force in play somewhere. I suppose the beam could be overloaded and deflecting. But I also think it may be possible that the footing that is supposed to be under your garage slab may not be sufficiently below your frost line... assuming you have one. If that's the case, then the footing could be heaving and the pushing the column up, causing the beam deflection.
It sounds like you already have your own opinion, I'm curious what you might think the cause is, and why? Have you had other problems with this home?
The footing beneath the column is adequate. It is at least 24" x 24" and 12" thick below the 4-6" thick slab. No sign of any heaving of the slab in any areas. Only showing a few hairline cracks here and there.
well, my first thought was maybe the joists were not attached properly to the beam allowing the top to roll a bit under weight. NOt sure if thats possible or not.
however, it is possible it has always been that way. I think I may plumb a line from the bottom corner of the beam up to the ceiling and mark it and keep an eye on it
My father (a degreed mechanical engineer) also a remodel contractor seems to think what fasteddie suggested: that the beam has always been that way since installation.
I dont think the structure is gonna come crashing done and im certainly not trying to undermine what my wise father believes. Funny enought, a work in the family remodel business and think I have a decent amount of knowledge, however, with my investment and the fact that my bedroom is above I may be a sort of a worry wort and am overlooking conventional wisdom because its my personal home. Does that make sense?
It is a little over a year old, so I am noticing the slight nail pops, etc. of wood construction :)
As always, thanks for the comments
Diesel, I wouldn't think that it is possible to have frost that deep in a closed garage. Even in very, very, very cold weather, things don't freezevery easily in the garage and I don't have an insulated door.
We store our bottled water out in the garage on the floor sometimes and I've never seen ice in any bottle.
blue
So the beam now is wrapped in drywall and appears to be twisted. Could it be as simple as just a sloppy drywall job around a beam that's OK? Measure and note how far out of plumb it is, then check again every few months. If it's not moving, it'll probably be OK.
-- J.S.
John,
I know some of the corner bead used on the edges is not straight. But, the joints between the beam and ceiling show no signs of cracking or paper tape pulling apart. Another reason to believe it was perhaps installed twisted.
Jg,
After reading all the post I have one more idea for you.
28' is a pretty long span for 2 LVL's. They could have installed the center post after setting the LVL's. If the post was to tall and they forced it under the lvl's before the floor joist we're installed the top of the lvl, in the center, will want to lean to one side or the other rather than crown straight up. The two end would have to be locked in place.
In other words it could have been framed that. I have never seen an lvl twist otherwise.
Just a thought!
Howie
Thanks Howie,
What I need to do is probably run a string from one end to the other and see how that looks and make sure the middle is not up too high. Im fairly certain that before the steel column was set, it was temporarily supported a few different places with built up posts and I believe I checked for level. Then, i think they simply slid the column underneath and adjusted until snug then removed the temps.But, you raise a good point and I will check.Thanks again for the idea