Ugh – Saltillo should not be pink!
I swore I would never do Saltillo again but here we go. The first and last time I did Saltillo, I didn’t get enough pre-seal on and it got ugly around grout time. This time I pre-sealed about 30 tiles by dipping the top and edges in a “natural finish” sealer (slurp). Man those things are thirsty!
Unfortunately, when they said “natural finish” they meant it. The sealed tiles are the same pink salmon color as the un-sealed tiles – Ugh! not what I was looking for!
No point in trying to save those tiles, but what can I do on the next batch to get that deep, rich red, orange and yellow mottled finish of the old school linseed oil finish that used to be the standard in Saltillo floors?
I guess the obvious answer is linseed oil, or maybe even a linseed oil stain, eh? I found a couple of web sites that said, “don’t use oil” but there was no reason given. What’s the problem? Linseed used to be the go to finish before the high dollar alternatives hit the market didn’t it?
These tiles will get quite a bit of big dog traffic so scratching is inevitable no matter what I use. Linseed is an easy and affordable touch-up solution so I’m thinking it’s still worth considering over the poly and acrylic finishes on the market these days.
But, then again, what do I know? Does anyone have an alternative finish that goes down easy, pulls out the rich hues and touches up as cleanly as linseed? Oh yea, affordable would be nice too.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
Replies
You might try asking over at the John Bridges tile forum
Ya, but he calls this home.
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Thanks - I didn't ask but I did search over there and found lots of good info. John advocates wetting but not pre-sealing. He's the pro and that obviously works for him but I can assure you, after my last experience with that technique, I will not be following that sage advice again. Even pre-wetting Saltillo, it takes a darn fast tile pro to get the grout in the joints before it turns to powder. I am not a darn fast tile pro!
I did dig up a few old school finishers out there using boiled linseed oil and wax that swear it's as durable as anything else on the market. I find that hard to imagine but one thing is certain, oil/wax produces exactly the rich leathery look I'm going for.
If oil/wax is a bad idea I'd sure like to know why. With a giant dog on Saltillo, I'm going to have frequent maintenance on any finish. If that's the only draw back to an oil/wax finish then I think I'm leaning heavily in that direction.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
GWA,
I've done mucho Saltillo hombre.
Bad news; they're mad from clay. Which might be red, or pink, or brow, sometimes even yellow! Natural is what you get, I gaurantee vivid color variations and imperfection.
Once even saw dag prints on one. That's what makes them unique.
Now; they can be staine with ordinary Minwax stains. This is where I'm a bit fuzzy 'cause it's been many years. Stain gets diluted I think with turps.
Or maybe added to the Linseed oil and wax. Boris might know better than me. But that old mix when buffed out is the real deal.
Nice depth and a good hard finish. Hit it a couple of times a year with the buffer and some wax and your good to go. Just don't smoke and drown the rags in a bucket of water.
About grouting, we used to SOAK the tiles, I mean sometimes we would have water come through the ceiling below, it's that critical to get them that wet.
You can't do it alone. Two minimum, three is better.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Thanks Eric.
These looked pretty good when the sealer was wet but they dried back to exactly what they looked like before I put anything on them. No depth at all - Not good.
All right, the experts keep pushing this wet tile then grout idea. Am I to understand that you don't put anything but water on them until they are grouted? Do you have any problem with the color in dark grouts leaching into the tiles and staining them?
Man I had a mess the last time I tried that, and I was only laying 1/4" to 3/8" joints on that job because it was a small room. I had one coat of sealer and the tiles were sure enough wet when I started grouting and they still sucked the moisture out of the grout. I was pushing powder in less than five minutes. I actually had to sand some of the stains off of the tiles before I could seal them again. It looked pretty nice when I was done but it really made me determined not to wade too far into that end of the pool again.
One help, this time I'm using gray grout, not the dark brown I used last time.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
Portland and sand for grout. And your joints are small for 12 x 12's, assuming? 1/2" for me.
Your using those big thick out of square multi thickness Mexican Saltillo?
And yes to emphasize, they gotta be really wet. The tile need to be at thier max. absorption for water. Soaked through, not wet or wetted.
There has got to be some place to find good info for this.
I'll check my Byrnes book for ya.
I have not done any Saltillo in at least 15 years.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I just thought that cause you sealed them that you may be having a problem wetting them.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
The project with the tighter grout lines was in our last house. Because of the small size of the room I made the joints smaller and laid the saltillo on a diagonal. It visually expanded the space remarkably well. This project, in our new home, will have 1/2" grout lines all nice and square... well, as nice and square as you can get Saltillo anyway.
Yea, this is the old style, rustic, square edge, chicken track, backyard beehive kiln $.99 per tile saltillo right off the truck that just arriving from across the boarder. It's got the potential for charm, but the life blood's just not in it yet.
You may be onto something with the thin pre-seal being just enough to keep the tiles from absorbing the pre-soak on top but still enough porosity on the edges to suck the life out of the grout. I think I'll lay a test field in the well house before I commit to the floor in the house. I'll get a couple of buddies and try the soaking wet, no seal out there and see if I can pull it off.
I would think all that extra water in a pre-soak would weaken the grout joints and cause excessive shrinkage. I'm discovering the pre-soak vs. pre-seal and the oil vs. water based finish discussions on the tile sites are sort of akin to the felt verses Tyvek battles we've had here.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
I'm gonna see the guy with whom I installed Saltillo with years ago today, and I will get some info from him.
I vividly recall meticulously soaking the tiles with loaded wet sponges. Took forever. Literally monitored each tile to see that it would no longer accept any more liquid. This was the key to grouting.
I'll get back to you later today.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I was helping a friend do a living room in saltillo, his first time, anout 4-5 for me. I said to pre-seal, he didn't believe me, got in a hurry and installed one box before they got sealed and I didn't notice. (we would lay the tiles out on the grass and roll on a coat of finish). When it came time to grout, the unsealed tiles became very obvious, and he ended up chipping them out and replacing them.
but they dried back to exactly what they looked like before I put anything on them So why not putr on several more coats of finish?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I'm looking for the dark leathery finish that you get from oil and wax. The oil soaks into the tile and pulls out every ounce of natural beauty, emphasizing the hot spot color shifts resulting from the backyard beehive kiln firing. The dark, semi-wet look stays, it doesn't dry back to that pink salmon, unsealed tile look.
I saw a lot of the finish I'm after when I lived in Sierra Vista, Arizona years ago. Maybe it's just my fading memory of an imagined charm but the modern sealers don't seem to produce the same look. I've seen modern sealers that coat up and darken the tiles but they seem to produce a finish more akin to a plastic film with less vibrant hues underneath. I don't know, maybe they are just getting more consistent in their processing and the color shifts in Saltillo are not as rich these days.
A friend of mine got close to what I'm looking for with his Saltillo floor but he used a water born stain to darken them and about 30 coats of polyurethane sealer to top it off. (ok, maybe it was more like 10 coats but I figure he's upwards of about $5.00 per square foot in materials by now)
Every couple of years it starts to look pretty bad from the dog traffic so he just lays down another coat of sealer. It's starting to look a bit overglossed. For that kind of work it makes more sense to just wax a couple of times a year and strip it occasionally to keep it from over building.
This floor is going to get used a lot. The dog's nails will do some damage no matter what I seal it with. I want it to take on a "lived on" patina over the years but I also want it to age gracefully.
The more I dig up on this it seems like the primary objections to Linseed/wax are excessive maintenance concerns. The biggie for me is that, if I'm going to do the oil finish, I'm going to be grouting these babies raw. Yikes!
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
Would Waterlox work to seal them ? They recommend it for sealing slate and concrete.
Make sure you strip the wax before applying new. My friend's mom had a stone floor which the housekeeper applied wax to over and over without stripping. On day an errant spark from the fireplace caught all that wax on fire and half the house burned down. Not good."A completed home is a listed home."
I yai yai- I thought those tiles could be bought pre finished- i have never been a fan of cleaning and cleaning and cleaning off grout. I would appreciate letting me know what you do because i intend to do my entire house- once :)
good luck
Rusty
You can buy Saltillo tiles pre-finished, almost perfectly flat and with radiused edges these days. In fact, I found one company that will mix the clay with pigments and create any color you want, any shape you want, with any finish you want.
They do look pretty nice but the down side is that you cannot make those tiles look anything like what I'm shooting for and you'll never match the finish when it's time for the inevitable touch-up down the road.
There are also through color ceramic "Saltillo" tiles that look very nice. That would be the way to go if you want a Saltillo look with low maintenance and durability. By the time you are done with the install and sealing of the authentic tile you are a long ways toward paying for the ceramic imitations that you will never have to mess with again.
The downside there is that you loose that leathery, almost warm feel of authentic Saltillo when you walk across it bare foot. There's just nothing quite like it.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
hmmm- Im a woodworker, so this is out of my league, but i have installed some tile, its usually not fun, and i prefer the tiles as you do- is the problem the tile draws the moisture from the grout and shrinks it? That must be why some guys soak em- ive got about 3500 sqft to cover, i think i will do some experimenting first- 2 big dogs and mopping is best :)
Rusty,
Eric shot me an e-mail on the old school method a few days ago. With his permission, rather than hording this marvelous top secret info, :-)> I'm posting it here as a follow up for anyone else interested in that "original" look and feel.
Thanks again Eric, Ah-pree-shate-cha!
Kevin,
Perhaps too late, but I did finally talk to the Saltillo guy last week.
Here's what we used to do 20 some odd years ago, you can adapt this method to suit your needs in reference to subflooring and new vs old construction.
We would strip the floor out to the subfloor. Usually would find 1/2" cdx ply. Tar paper first and folded up to form a lip at all the walls as much as possible. (you'll understand why later)
Galvanized wire lathe over the tar paper well secured with roofing nails. This gets a well forced in scratch coat of mortar; 3 x 80 lbs fine sand to 1 sack of Portlandt Cement. Let it set overnight.
Saltillo must be cleaned thoroughly both sides especially the backs with a stiff brush. At the same time you will want to "shuffle" up your supply of tile by mixing up all the boxes.
These tile get set with gray thinset. Let this set up a few days.
Now comes the fun part. To prpare for grouting you will need to thoroughly soak these tile. Buckets of water and sponges, you will literally need to flood the floor. Remember the lip on the tarpaper? The tile must be soaked to the point of refusal and then some.
Grout is made from the same sand cement ratio as above. You can use light or dark cement or a blend as you desire. Some will try to use a grout bag but you will need to make the grout too loose for that and doing 400 sq ft like that isn't gonna be fun.
When you are all cleaned up let it set over night and cover with building paper the next day. DO NOT use tape on anything even to hold the paper together. It will leave a ghost on the tile.
You need to leave this set for 3 weeks.
Sealer is 1 turps:3 boiled linseed oil. Add stain pigments. Pigments not stain. Not sure where to get that, but it was emphasized. Rub it in with rags and elbow grease. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about those rags and proper disposal. Give it a couple of days to dry well.
Floor wax is applied with a buffer. I remember the guy melting it in a metal pail on an old hot plate then sloshing it on with a large old brush, then buffing it out. Be careful.
You'll know when you are done when you obtain that depth that you were looking for. That old pair of shoes look.
Good luck, i hope this isn't too late, sorry for that. If you have ay questions don't hesitate to ask.
Eric
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again
i started to go that route then i talked the ho into using glazed saltillos. they stain so easily. whew i dodged another bullet.tyke
Just another day in paradise
Problem is, if you use Linseed, which indeed was used for years, what do you do about the grout? That won't protect it from the grime.
I use products from Sparks Southwest. Texas. Think Cooleyville is the town. One coat of Stone Glamour, then Mex Seal. Alkyd. Good stuff.
Here's how I do it. Couple of DW buckets where you're soaking the raw tiles. Layed wet, but not sealed. Seal b4 grouting. At least 2 coats. Three if they haven't picked up any shine. Over to John Bridge they say keep it off the edges (grout won't stick). I've never found that to be a problem. Then 1-2 more coats after grouting. Maybe go back and just hit the grout again.
This house used colored grout. Don't like it. Looks funky after a few years no matter how much you try to stay on top of it. Will go back to portland if I do another.
And, yes, it can be pink. And red. And yellow. And a combo thereof. The stuff that's all one color, that's been dyed, doesn't look real.
Dogs not a problem. Just finished quite shiney. After a few weeks and some foot traffic, about the same as a satin varnish finish. Doesn't scratch unless you shove furniture around.
ShelleyinNM
Problem is, if you use Linseed, which indeed was used for years, what do you do about the grout? That won't protect it from the grime.
The grout gets the same linseed and wax finish as the tiles. The wax acts as the sealer.
If we fail to catch a cosmic fish it may be a trillion years before the opportunity comes again