So……. started a new frame today….. sorta. Had the forklift moved there last night, checked out the site, looked at the first lumber drop…. all seemed well.
We get there this morning and roll out. The guys get their bearings on the new site and start breaking down the lumber piles. I shoot the breeze and swap contracts with the builder. Time to rock n roll.
I start squaring up the foundation and see pretty early on that something is out of whack. I start by snapping out the front wall of the home to be right where it’s supposed to be on the foundation, then I square the longest perpendicular wall to that one. I do the same thing on every frame and do these two things before I pull a dimension.
Anyway, the 47′ side wall of the home wants to run 1 1/2″ off the foundation when squared to the front. Oh boy…. this is gonna take some tweaking. So I start pulling dimensions from the plans to get the rest of it squared up.
The foundation is not only out of square a good deal, it’s 12″ too deep, front to back and is 20″ too long, side to side, while the garage has somehow lost the 20″ that the house found.
Whole house is engineered lumber. All the main carrying beams (LVL’s) are 20″ too short and potentially over-spanned. All the I-joists, some of which run all the way from the front to the back (47′ 6″… supposed to be 46’6″) are too short and also potentially over spanned. Center footings down the center of the basement are all off by 12″ as are all the beam pockets (7 of them) in the foundation. UGLY.
Whole house needs to be re-engineered by Boise-Cascade programs via the lumberyard. All the lumber needs to get picked up and new I-joists and LVL’s need to be cut and shipped. I’ve got a real good relationship with the lumberyard and salesman on this job and we throw each other work back and forth quite a bit. He’s going to do everything he can do to make it happen for me, but I’m asking a lot. FWIW, I’m supplying labor only on the job… no lumber.
How the fugg does this stuff happen? I’m gonna do the best I can to help him out… he’s a good guy and his checks are very good as well as timely. We’re going there tomorrow in the morning and will start cutting all the door and window packages and headers to stay busy. But when the work runs out…. the clock has got to start, right? I can’t tell the guys to stay home until he gets his cookies together…. I mean, it’s totally our busy season and I’ve got no other work as this is a pretty big house that I haven’t scheduled anything even close to cuz it’s going to need our full attention. We’re already starting three weeks late and I managed to scramble around and find three other small frames to keep us busy until he was ready.
I’ve never really had to back-charge anyone, but I’m thinking it may happen here. What say you guys? What would you do in my shoes and also the builder’s shoes? If and when I back charge, do I shoot for my target daily number that I aim to bring down everyday with my crew or do you cut some slack? Or do you charge even more cuz it’s probably screwing up your own schedule on the other end of the job? Or do you just eat it as a cost of doing business?
Am I being unfair? I really don’t think so and he seems to understand the situation. He pretty much tore the azz out of the foundation guy on the phone…. it was ugly. But it’s just not my problem. My guys want/need the hours, equipment needs to get paid for, and I oughta be making some money at some point too, no?
Replies
Well Dies, maybe it's time to learn how to table frame!
I wouldn't batt and eye as I started framing the garage walls. I'd start stacking the house walls in a pile and sometime in the future the deck will get built and I'd be way ahead, thinking about a day or two up north!
Id have all the hipset trusses done, all the gables sheathed, paperer and ovehanged. I'd have all the stairs built. I'd set and sheath the garage roof.
blue
So I should run out and buy a boom truck to lift my two story 10 pitch gables that span 37'6"? No trusses here either.
I've seen some pics of your sites Blue... and they don't look anything like mine. If we have level ground.... there's foundation on it. This is Massachusetts.... land of the 10,000 sqft lot with 5000 sqft of house on it. Even if I had the means, I'd have to build the panels down the street on the soccer field. Even if I had the room on site, there's still trenches opening and getting closed up just about daily. It'd be a logistical nightmare.
Edited 6/28/2005 9:19 pm ET by dieselpig
Diesel, I thought you mentioned in your first post that you had your forklift onsite already.
A forklift would easily lift a dinky little 37' span 10/12 pitch gable. My miscalculations tell me that that gable is somewheres around 200 inches tall. If you can tilt that with a fork, you can lift it.
I've seen things like that rolling down the subdivision streets dangling!
Dont' let one wall dissuade you from building all the rest of the walls!
the trenches thing is another story. Just don't let them dig while you're there framing.
blue
I usually build my gables laying on the deck.... 2nd floor wall with the gable on top... all in one shot. That's framed, sheathed, 12" overhangs trimmed out with 1x8 rakes, crown, frieze, and hip cornices. Pretty fuggin' heavy.
Can't say I'd be comfortable booming that thing up with my forklift. Can't say I could reach either. That's over 23' at the peak spanning 37+ feet... on top of the first floor walls. Terrain ain't exactly pavement either.
Suppose I could build the wall and the gable seperate. But that would mean I couldn't finish the trim and cornice while it was on the deck and accessible. Not ready to completely change my system for the sake of one house. But thanks for the advice Blue. I can always count on you to think outside of the box!
You know darn well what you are going to do. Pay your crew. Back charge just your costs. Accept something less than that. Do the job with a smile.
I hope they can get the new lumber together quickly and maybe it won't be too bad.
I'm still smiling..... takes a lot more than this to bring me down. I'm being as helpful as I can with the builder and pulling as many strings as I can with the lumberyard for him (and me).
To be honest.... I'm sort of unsure of the whole back-charge thing. I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face. If it's a matter of a day or so.... I'd rather eat my guy's wages than piss of the builder and lose his work for the next 5, 10, 15 years. Tough place to draw a line. For me, anyway.
I'm not in the business, so this might be a dumb question, but....why isn't the foundation guy coming back the next day to rip out the bad work and make it right. It's his fault right?
Maybe I missed it, but is the foundation poured, or block?
I would think it would be quicker to correct the foundation, and use the original plans/lumber.
It's poured concrete. Full basement. No way it'll be faster to re-excavate, saw-cut and demo existing, set new forms, order/pour concrete, cure, strip, and backfill.
Not to mention, the excavator has a good deal the septic field already installed, inspected, and sand filled... directly behind the wall in question.
I think that if set-backs were an issue on this house, he'd be forced to re-work the foundation. He's set on just building a bigger house at this point.
before ya run yourself full speed outta work ...
now might be a good time to ask if anyone wants a week or so off for vacation ...
half paid even.
Have a skeleton crew do the bust work till the next full load shows up.
I'm sure you've already done it ... but I take one full day burning up my cell and shaking the trees to see if there's any smaller work another builder would like done asap ... busy season ... might be a garage or three out there sitting and waiting ...
as far as back charging ... I would ... but I'd be as fair about it as I could ... even a bit unfair to myself? Figure what it all costs ... minus yourself ... tell the builder U gotta pay your guys ... and U gotta pay the machine payments ... but U can eat break and water for a coupla weeks to help him out ... because U are 100% sure he'll remember ... and you are 100% sure you'll remind him ... and the work will flow for years after this ... and someday you'll both sit down ... and you'll laugh ... and he'll cry.
How much work does this guy consistently have? Lotsa good stuff?
I'd even play "Let's Make a Deal" ... sit down ... and ask him how much guaranteed work in the future he thinks is fair to sign off on if U sit and wait patiently ... and pay your guys/bills out of your own pocket ... as "most other guys with just say to hell wit ya and back charge!"
Type something up .. get his sig ... even if it's meaningless on any official level ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I think a (reasonable) backcharge here would be appropriate.
And it should be passed along to the foundation guy.
those thoughts crossed my mind
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I was thinking somebody needs to buy the GC a 100' tape, & show them how to use it!
Time to go have a beer or three with the GC.
SamT
Diesel,
I hate it when things like that happen.
My policy on changes to the building is, “If the change made are not at my expense, there is no charge.” This goes for unintentional as well intentional changes. I have had several similar incidents over the years. This one will obviously be at some expense to you and you should be fairly compensated for it. But it shouldn’t be too big a deal to get the new lumber onsite, and until then, work around the mistake.
I do as much “Table Framing” as I can on any job. I usually set up on tight job sites on one area of the slab (no basement foundations here) and pre build the second floor walls and stack them just off the slab first anyway. I keep the wall panels at a manhandling size since I don’t have a forklift or boom.
It sounds like the foundation is workable with modifications to make it fit. The sooner you get on it, the sooner it’s done.
It sounds to me like there needs to be a pretty good shake up and re-arrangement on the whole project.
Since the foundation man seems to have used the wrong end of the batter boards, he's changed the entire footprint of the house, and not by the width of a 2x, either, but by a foot or more.
That has contractual obligations all throughout the project. The exterior & interior trim quantities are all off, now; there's probably architetural alignments that are not "in whack" anymore (and need a lot of coordination sooner not later--the base for that basement laly column is lined up to what, exactly, now?). The square footage of the building is off, too--so everything calculated by the s.f. is now wrong.
I'd be very surprised if, in fact, the foundation meets setbacks, tight lots seldom have a spare foot to spare in two directions. So, that sets up a nifty situation. City comes along for an inspection, oops, this thing is a foot over the set back. Wait, all the permits are for a different square footage. Most Cities are going to call "king's X," and nobody makes a dime on the deal until it's fixed.
So, should you backcharge? That's a hard call. I'd be more worried about whether the project goes 'whoa' in the middle of my patch of it. I'd spend a bit of time with the GC just to be sure where he was planning to go with the project. The costs of all new engineered lumber are not insignificant, neither are your labor costs--somebody "owes" for that. The trick of it is in the "making it right."
I've been to two of these, and was not real happy with either. The one that had the foundation three feet into the protected wildlife area (but was 6" undersized) is still there, unfinished, on hold, going on sixteen years now.
Pretty much agree with everybody here on a practical matter. You can't and shouldn't eat this. Pure and simple, it's not your fault and not right. Try to minimize the loss - vacations, cover other work, do whatever table building or on site stuff will work to keep busy. This is going to take time to re-engineer and/or redo, the question is, "How much?" Are we talking days for some new lumber to get there or weeks for everything else? Talk to the gc. Tell him straight up what your loss is going to be. He's not paying it - the foundation guy is. Ask him what he can do to make it right, think cash. I don't like the idea of trying to defer the payment/profit to another job on another day. Memories fade, friendships break, companies fold and people get hit by trucks.How much can the concrete company eat? How about the gc? There's a lot of job left to do, and it's all got to be paid for. If there's a big enough nut here (are we talking thousands, or tens of thousands?) then go the hard route and put the foundation guy's carrier on notice.
I don't say run to court right away if you can avoid it - it's expensive, time consuming, etc. But, it may come down to that somewhere soon. I definitely would get something in writing now that it's not your responsibility AT ALL, and I would want a written acknowledgment of responsibility from the foundation company if I could get it. That should be handled carefully because his carrier could disclaim. Some of the companies have a provison in the policy that if he admits liability, they are off the hook. It can be done, if written properly. I would also get the camera out and document the situation - preserve the evidence. Remember, if the defecation hits the ventilation, it isn't just you three any more. The lawyers get involved and next, they will be blaming everybody else.
There is momentum and everybody is still friends, now. So now is the time to set up a real job meeting with written minutes and everybody present including the architect. Come to some kind of understanding on a business level. Think about it from the standpoint of what if I was on the other side and hope they do too. What's fair? You can work for less profit, that's one thing - if the matter is going to be settled. Unless the gc is family, I wouldn't be working for free and I wouldn't be taking anything even close to a loss. Like I said before, he shouldn't be paying for it.
Good luck. I've been through a bunch of these when the carriers were involved. If you want to, you can e-mail me privately and I'll help to the extent possible.
Don
You are abosolutely right - he needs to get this situation documented and some form or written acknowlegement from the builder that foundation is oversized and screwed up. It hasn't reached the calm resolution phase yet, that comes after the anger, denials, and blaming ;-)
All right gang.... settle down.
Don't send in the "lawyers, guns, and money" just yet. LOL. Luka, the GC didn't take this laying down in the least bit. I thought he was gonna drag the guy right through the cellphone. I also overheard him on the phone with the bank explaining the situation..... it's wasn't a bait and switch situation.
So... conspiracy theories aside.....
All is well. I pulled a serious string with the lumber yard who I work with a good deal. Between the GC, myself, and the lumbersalesman.... we managed to have some weight to throw around. The re-engineering was completed at 2pm today and the cut sheet went out to the yard shortly there-after. I'm getting the first truck tomorrow AM. I owe about $300 in Legal Seafoods Gift Certificates in grease money, but it's well worth it.
We spent the day today cutting in and hammering out beam pockets, digging new footings in the hole and cutting our door and window packages for the first and second floor. Sills are installed, rim joist is up and the whole frame is layed out. Tomorrow we'll set the beams, gang cut the joists and be back in business.
Yes, the house's square footage has changed. Yes, I'm being compensated for the additional work and will be creating a revised contract this evening that will be signed tomorrow now that we know what's going on. I will include some wording describing and documenting the reason the contract has been revised. Nice way to to get it documented and signed by both of us without rocking the boat too much.
I spent a couple hours last night checking the roofline to make sure they would still work and I'm comfortable that they will. Even still, the architect is working on revised plans and will have them shortly to work from. The framing plans will be delivered with the lumber as they are provided by the lumberyard via Boise Cascade's engineering software. I'm covered.
Not too shabby considering that when we left the site yesterday I was looking at being two weeks away from being on track. At 6 am this morning I got a phone call from the lumbersaleman telling me he'd probably need a week to get it done. By 10am he told me he could have my lumber by Friday. Before I left the site today he called to say it was being cut and would be delivered in the morning. I love this guy.
I feel for the GC. He's a good guy. A working stiff like me. He's an excavation contractor that builds 3 or 4 spec houses a year. Why he didn't double check the forms before they were poured, I'll never know. And I don't think asking him now will help any... he's probably beating himself up enough right now without me stating the obvious to him. I know that he's scrambling to figure out what the extra sq footage is going to cost him in the long run and where the cash is coming from. One good thing about being the framer is that we get paid before pretty much everyone... long before the money runs out. And yes, I dictate the payment schedule in my contract and I plan on sticking to it. It's definately front-loaded, but that's just the way I work. I'm not building your house with my money. My own house costs me enough... yours isn't gonna cost me a nickle.
I gotta ask though..... I showed up on site and measured the foundation...... how the heck are guys assuming that I'm going to get blamed for the thing? I mean, the foundation is right there for anyone to measure.... and the plans show something entirely different. How the heck could this end up as my fault?!?! By not bringing the board stretcher with me?
IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!
Riverfest 2005. Be there, or be square.
http://www.hay98.com/
I can accept that. Wouldn't be the first time! LOL.
Ok, now that sounds like real life.=0)I don't think anyone was saying you would be responsible, just that you could possibly take it in the shorts.As in: Get the thing framed, or mostly so, and have the project deep-sixed by the county, and then suddenly there is no money to pay you. Etc...
Are we there yet ?
Payment schedule on bigger (big for me, almost 60K) jobs is always way front loaded. Worst case-scenario.... and I mean totally getting caught with my pants down.... would be about 4 days labor for me and two men. And we'd have to have a barn burner of a week and lap two scheduled payments for that to happen.
Pants up or pants down...You are a pro! Making it happen - feels good don't it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It kinda does. The foundation guy handled it like a snot-nosed brat. One thing I've learned and not just from this situation.... if a new sub is he11 bent on telling you how good he is.... he's probably not that good.
He offered to let the builder keep the last 3K. Builder said he'd get back to him on that one! I'm glad that I'm not part of that conversation. A toast to you GC's out there for putting up with the crap you have to put up with. I'm smart enough to know that while I'm fairly good at what I do... I don't think I could ever do what you do. You GC dudes have my respect... for whatever that's worth.
So I'll make an extra 2G or so... and all I gotta do is cut the joists a foot longer, add another stud bay to a couple walls, and rip the last course of decking a bit bigger! Not a bad booger at all, now that it's over!
But thanks for the compliment Piff.... that feels good too once in awhile.
"poof"!
yer the official Go-To guy.
Good work. Used the rolodex filled with goodwill and made it happen. Bet yer booked up for quite some time now. I love it when a plan comes together ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Gimmee a few good men - The kind who know how good it feels to geterdone - and I can rebuild the world
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It is nice to hear about folks who, instead of looking for someone to point a finger at, are willing to do whatever it takes to solve a problem and get the job done. With an attitude like yours, the money will take care of itself.
"The re-engineering was completed at 2pm today and the cut sheet went out to the yard shortly there-after. I'm getting the first truck tomorrow AM. I owe about $300 in Legal Seafoods Gift Certificates in grease money, but it's well worth it."
Glad to see that you appreciated the extra effort they went through.
I've pulled rabbits out of hats for customers more than once, and not gotten so much as a "thanks" for it.
If particular care and attention are not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation. [Abigail Adams, in a letter to her husband John]
Gotta give a little to get a little, right?
I try really hard to take care of those that take care of me.... right down to the pizza delivery guy. The good thing is that my wife works for Legal Sea Foods (it's an upscale restaurant chain with a very good name in the New England area) and, while I don't get a discount, she picks the gift cards up for me while she's at work. Otherwise I'd probably never get around to getting them out!
It usually turns out to be the best money I spend on my business. Second only to tools of course. ;)
Hope someone takes care of you real soon Boss... you deserve it too.
Brian... i do the same thing with AAA movie passes.. always comes back in spadesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"I try really hard to take care of those that take care of me...."
That's how I look at it also. And many of the people I deal with on a regular basis DO appreciate it when I go out of my way to help them out.
It means a lot to me when people simply say that they appreciate what I've done for them. I've never gotten and don't expect any gifts.
But there are always a few jerks who think you should produce their stuff instantly. You bend over backwards to help 'em out, and then never hear from them again.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
Can't say it enough - good work today. When good people pull together, it helps.
You ask, "How are you at fault?" You are not - but that never prevented anyone from being sued or blamed on paper. You think an insurance adjuster knows how a construction project works? How many lawyers - or judges or juries - have a clue? I once worked on a b.s. case where a school teacher claimed he got a dose of fume poisoning from a foam roof that was being sprayed with the windows open. Everybody got sued from the manufacturer, to the installer, the District, even the Engineer. Before the deposition started, plaintiff's lawyer got erveryone into a room and said he wanted $35,000 to settle. Everybody looked at him astonished and said where do you get that number? He calmly responded, there are 7 of you and 35 is divisible by 7. Each one puts up nuisance value and we're done. Huh? Sometimes the issue becomes how long can the carrier or the defendant put up with the crap before giving in and paying something. Crappy system, you could say that, but there are lots of worse ones too.
The important thing is that you are back on track.
I am curious about the measurement argument. In the real world, how many gc's double check the forms for size before the pour? It's kind of like checking the location after the surveyor sets stakes. Isn't that what they are getting paid for?
Brian, I can't calculate the total square footage change because you didn't give all the dimensions.
But I see -at least- 80 square feet extra per floor.
Wonder if I can get by with that ?
Get everyone to bid on a house that is at least 160 square feet smaller than what I am going to actually build. Then get them all to keep to their bids, by blaming it on the foundation guy.
Who was supposed to be watching the foundation guy ? Who laid it out in the first place ? Who checked it after that ? Where was the GC when this "mistake" was being made ???
The GC is just taking it too cooly. -Someone- is taking the "extra cost" too cooly. I smell something fishy.
And as CapnMac has already pointed out... what does, or will the county say about all this ? What effect could that have in the middle of the job ? And if it does, what effect with -that- have on whether you ever see full payment for your work or not ???
Forget whether you can eat some up front or not. Just how much are you going to eat in the end if this all goes south ?
Are we there yet ?