I am curious as to what contractors think about this topic. Have any of you had this experience?
I referring to unlicensed or other contractors bid on jobs out of their classification. i.e.. roofers bidding on framing projects.
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"Have any of you had this experience?"
Daily. The only defense that I know of is increase your lead count and sharpen your sales skills. Figure out how to show you are offering a better product for the money. I never talk price I talk value for what you pay. Once starting to use the technique I am still beat out by the price/bootleg contractor occasionally but not as often.
But if it wasn't the Mexican workers it would be the guy down the street that just got laid off or some other faction. No end to it and I imagine it has always been that way. DanT
Dan,
I don't like using scare tactics, but if you could find a respectable way to point it out, an additional strategy would be to tell homeowners they can get in major financial straits if an uninsured worker gets hurt on their property.
I've never mentioned this to clients, but it's definitely crossed my mind when I have people working on *my* house. Sure, I'd be saving some money on an hourly basis by having a carpenter take a side job to do my deck. But if he's not insured, and he cuts off his hand while framing.....
You can make that a positive: make a little tips list for potential clients, no matter who they hire, that points out the need for insurance, permits, inspections, licenses, ....
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Have any of you had this experience?
I think it'll take less time to list all the contractors who have not had this experience. It's just part of the business I'm afraid. I'm lowballed by illegal, uninsured crews all the time. (I'm a framing sub). I try to convince contractors that we offer a superior product (because I truly believe that we do) and that in the end, they'll get exactly what they paid for no matter which of us is hired. Some bite on it, some don't. Some call me to either clean up their messes after the fact, or call me for the next one when they realize I was right.
So I stay out of the big developments and try to target smaller GC outfits building a couple of specs or a couple customs a year. All I need is a few of them to keep our crew good and busy. Thankfully, after three years of hard work, that model is beginning to come to fruition.
I try not to think about the non-legit crews as "competition" because I can't compete with their pricing, and they can't compete with my service, quality, and attention to detail. But in many ways they still are the competition.... I just try not to think about it because it hurts too much.
Like DanT said, the situation has always existed as part of the business. The faces and colors may have changed, but the fact of the matter hasn't.
I know what yer sayin but...........
I wouldn't judge by race, but rather say illegal alien or unlicensed contractor.
We have had our problems with the south of the border illegals doing general labor, sheetrock, & landscaping.
Now it's more of the eastern block illegals & unlicensed moving in on every other trade.
I do more big commercial jobs than residential now, & if I suspect illegal labor I have no problem with call I N S
If they don't come out I buy my buddies some beer & they dress up like I N S & make a surprise visit to the job & boy do you see some scattering going on.
You give your buddies beer money to impersonate federal officers to scare off illegal labor?
Sorry Bill, but I'm not sure who's committing the bigger offense. Both legally and morally.View Image
Impersonate is a strong word.
They will put suits on, walk around & ask if people are US citizens.
They brought the idea up to me, first time we did it, it was for a joke, & holy crap there was such a scramble of guys leaving the job I almost busted a nut laughing.
They never say that they are officials of anything.
If they are not "impersonating", then what would you call it? If your buddies have time to do this sort of crap they might want to consider getting jobs. At least the illegals have that going for them.
I'm not trying to defend illegals here either Bill. They do plenty of damage to my own business. But... can you blame them? Yes they're breaking laws and they're basically taking food off your table and mine..... but who's stopping them? I can't say I'd do any differently if I were in they're position. If you want to make a phone call to INS, then go for it... ain't nothing wrong with that. But I can't agree with pretending to be an INS officer and getting my rocks off by scaring the crap out of people.
EDIT: Bill, I don't want to get into it with your over something silly like this. All I'm saying is maybe rethink that INS tactic.
View Image
Edited 3/12/2006 8:19 pm ET by dieselpig
point taken
"They brought the idea up to me, first time we did it,"
Whew!!! Bailed out on that quick didn't ya!! DanT
LOL
No bail out intended.
Was kinda sorry I didn't think of it first.
I agree big man
I was not playing the race card. I twas more like plumbbill said, it is the illegal aliens. I do know what you mean by the eastern block too.
What about a contractor working out of their classification. Do you think it is alright for a roofer, painter, electrician to bid on a job out of their classification?
I have had other contractors I know use lobar from another race, because the workers don't waste to bulls***ing like some Caucasian workers.
What about a contractor working out of their classification. Do you think it is alright for a roofer, painter, electrician to bid on a job out of their classification?
Kind of a weird question. Who's doing the "classifications"? You? My truck says "framer" on it, but I'll bid on anything I want to bid on as long as it falls under things I'm licensed for and qualified to do.
If someone wants to hire unlicensed or under qualified labor to perform a job then that's their business. They can deal with the headaches. Same goes for the opposite side of the equation. If someone wants to bid on work that they don't have a clue how to do then that's their problem. I don't agree with either situation, but there's not much we can do about it, is there?View Image
Brian-
In CA, NV, and AZ (and maybe others), you need to get a license in a certain classification, and you can only bid work in that classification. You, for example, would have a "rough carpentry" classification, and couldn't bid finish carpentry, drywall, or anything else- to do so, you'd need to have multiple licenses.
To be a "general contractor", you can only bid jobs that require three or more distinct trades, and you can then either self-perform or subcontract those trades. With a GC's license, you couldn't bid on just a frame, or even on the frame and roof- you'd have to cover three classifications.
And you thought MA was a PITA......
Bob
Hey Bob:
Is that enforced? Sounds goofy. Any idea why a GC can't bid on just one (or two). Other than state sponsored market division.
I can see the consumer protection motivation of requiring specific licenses for specific classifications. But for the GC, if the GC can "self perform," then the state must be OK with GC qualifications. What's up with that?
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
we not underbid here but out worked, a illegal crew can turn a better product at a quicker time at the same price. The typical minority crew will not be able to find a job because nobody wants them no more. My opinion only.. 2+3=7
Edited 3/12/2006 6:50 pm by brownbagg
Is it enforced? As much as the license board can with the staff that they have (read: not much). More important not to have customer file a complaint against you with the board for work you're not classified for- you'll lose all of your licenses whether the complaint is valid or not.
The don't want GC's doing work in single trades because it would then defeat the purpose of having all of those classifications- everyone would just get a GC's license, and bid whatever they wanted.
The whole system is moronic- it all started in California (home of virtually every moronic idea in this country it seems), and spread to NV and AZ. Thankfully, it seems to have stopped there. In the meanwhile, I can tell you that there's more unlicensed contractors than there are licensed ones working in Las Vegas (or at least it seemed that way when I lived there), and at the same time, many of the licensed guys are clueless anyway. The system is absolutely useless- all it does is lull consumers into a false sense of security that "everything will be OK as long as you hire a licensed contractor".
Bob
>>"The whole system is moronic . . . . absolutely useless."
That's exactly what it sounds like. Now I understand. Reminds me -- Don't know if word of Phila. gov't. "ethics" problems makes it far out of town, but whenever one of our councilmen is indicted (been happening a lot lately), he/she immediately starts pushing some nonsense "consumer protection" bill as a smokescreen. Good gov't doing important work, of course. Next step is to outlaw coffee'cause it's hot ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
just bkz someone "licensed" does not mean will do proper work. tore out a hot tub 4 friend last year, she said she han an "electrician" (probably GM trained) put it in. Was an outside unit w/ buried feed, sized ok, but did not use UF wire.I not formally licensed, but KNOW how to properly run a lead to a hot tub.
Oh I get it. Thanks for the lesson. It sounds like a good system to me, but from what you guys are saying it seems to not be working much better than our system. MA really isn't bad at all. Now the insurance companies..... they make life he11 for us.View Image
I suppose the classification thing is a bigger city or union deal. Here in the rural mid west if someone is slow you can bet they are bidding on work of one type or another. Right, wrong. Dunno. But it is just the way it is here.
I got a buddy that is a licensed electrician. Had dinner with him and his DW and he is hanging cabinets for the Amish right now. Got to eat I guess. DanT
Just a comment... it's not illegal workers of any race that you're competing with, it's contractors who seek out guys that work for cash. I'm guessing most of those contractors are white Americans. I would not hesitate to drop a dime on someone if I knew that was their MO... to the IRS, most likely, or the work comp people.
and home owners looking to "save a buck" ...
follow the money.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Naw, if they were looking to save a Buck, they'd hire you.
Seriously, you're right. Ultimately everything traces back to the consumer. Our buying choices affect all sorts of environmental and political facts all over the globe.
Personally I'm wrestling with a consumer choice issue right now. I can either hire my roofing sub to reroof my house, or I can hire a guy I know who does shingles cheap and for cash. It will cost me more than twice as much to go the legit route. Talk about a test of principles... ouch.
Yup.
me ... I'd hire the cheap guy. I'll gamble on him falling ...
and cash is legal tender ... not your fault if he doesn't report it.
I have a buddy that's an autobody/mechanic ... he's been burned so many times that he's a strictly cash business. He's been audited before ... keeps records ... he's 99% cash and 99% legit. What more can ya ask for.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
True that it's not my fault if he doesn't report it. It's just that in the one case, I support a fellow legit contractor, and in the other I support a guy who cheats. What would I want other homeowners to do?
That's why I focus on the high end stuff ...
as it is ...
I can't afford myself!
can barely afford my buddies ... only when they discount for me.
I'd actually have to meet the two guys in Q ... I need a new roof on our place this spring ... now I'm going to do it myself ... but if I had to sub it out ... I probably would go for the best priced legit guy ... just because all the fly by nite guys here are crackheads ... and saving money or no ... I don't like the idea of a bunch of crack heads hanging out at my house for a coupla days.
Has nothing to do with "morals" ... just a comfort level line I'm not willing to cross.
lowest of the low bidders is usually leads to a better shot at being robbed!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Another problem with the crackheads is that if they do end up getting hurt they won't heal up for sh!t and you'll end up supporting them.....(unless you've go a buddy that does a lot of heavy concrete pours).
Not worth it!
I don't like the idea of a bunch of crack heads hanging out at my house for a coupla days.
Has nothing to do with "morals" ... just a comfort level line I'm not willing to cross.
Jeff,
I'd say that it's the smart and moral thing for you to keep crackheads away from your family!
I have sympathy for their families and, to a limited extent, them.
With that said, I'm glad that I stayed away from all of that nasty stuff. It's hard to believe what it will make people do.
Marc
This was in the newspaper Mar 8. From the Dallas morning news...."The nonpartisan Pew Hispanic Center" said basically.......29% of roofers and drywallers are undocumented and 27% of butchers and food processing are illegal workers. Living in central Washington state I can go to the (1 and only ) mall and not overhear a word of english. According to the State Patrol ,Hispanic men between 25-40 outnumber White. I know many Mexicans, as a former orchard manager. mMany are still friends after 30 yrs. Its the rif raff I dont like, be they white ,black,brown,whatever.Most of the Mexicans here are from Michoacan State. It seems to me that each local area (in the U.S.)draws the immigrants from that home area. Well, as every Mexican I talk to ,and introduces me to somebody....He's my cousin.
Those numbers show the incredible magnitude of the situation. How would all the drywalling get done if there were no illegals to do it? I don't think anyone, even Sancho, has a real clue how to solve this problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>How would all the drywalling get done if there were no illegals to do it? I don't think anyone, even Sancho, has a real clue how to solve this problem.We need these people and we also need their tax dollars. A solution is pretty easy to figure out. Getting it passed and operational is the problem. The first step is to close the border and have them come thru the proper channels to get here, but then welcome them.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
I agree on the proper channels, but on the "we need these people" that could be open for debate. Seems like we got through the biggest housing Boom ever, after WWII without them.
That's primarily due to Larry Haun.
How are "we" going to close the border? A huge fence? Minefields? I think it's too late for that. And what about the illegals that are already here? Hunt them down and deport them? Who is going to do this? More to the point, who is going to pay to have it done? The INS is overtaxed as it is.
As had been noted virtually every time the illegal topic comes up, the illegal workers in this economy are indispensable. How many of you have applied for jobs as busboys, dishwashers, hotel maids, fruit pickers, etc.?
How many of you have applied for jobs as busboys, dishwashers, hotel maids, fruit pickers, etc.?
How did we ever get this kind of work done 25 years ago?
If the Illegal had not brought the Wages down So-Low I bet others would be willing to do the work.
I say Build a fence or wall what ever it takes!
Come on out to the South West & see first hand what Cheap Illegal workers have done to us Tax paying Blue Collar Workers.
2700+ car accidents in the Denver area last year by illegals with no car insurance.
Make sure you speak spanish when you go to the fast food joints around here, or you never get what you paid for.
Last time I check it was called the USA, but we have such a break down in the laws around here with the open boarders & double standards with treatment of the non english speaking illegals.
>>"I say Build a fence or wall what ever it takes!"
Hundreds of miles of fence !? If the latinos aren't here, who's going to build it? ;-)
PS: Saw that bit on a comedy show last night. I have high respect for the work ethic of most latino workers I've seen. Legal or not, those guys bust their a$$es and want to work hard. (yeah, I know, unlike me sitting here all AM on breaktime).
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If the Illegal had not brought the Wages down So-Low I bet others would be willing to do the work.I'm not disagreeing with you, but there's only 100 cents in a dollar. If wages go up, consumer prices go up proportionately. The more I have to pay for my help, the more I have to charge my customer. We can't have it both ways.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
"If wages go up, consumer prices go up proportionately"
Most of the illegals do the piece work wage, around here,
Drywall $4.5 a sheet to hang, $4.5 to tape both 4'x12' sheets
Roofing comp shingles $15 sq to lay
Framing $2.25-$2.50 sq.ft
Hardboard siding .90 sq.ft
interior paint .27 x floor sq,ft.
Looks like the same prices they paid in 1980
G,
That pretty much sums it up. In my area there were not too many big builders up until about two years ago.
Since Pulte, Ryan and Hovanian have shown up you can hardly get a pizza or go to wal-mart in a certain part of town unless you speak Spanish.
But more to the point, you hit it right on the head. How many trades are not able to charge anymore because of the illegal competition? Just like in your area, I can show you places where FRaming and Roofing are going for LESS than they were 20 years ago. I just recently heard a framer bragging about how much he was getting a sqft and had to supress my disbelief since it was at least 20% less than we got in the same area 15 years ago.
There is a whole Ecnomic side to this but thats fodder for another thread.
Little more fuel for the fire......
Colorado: CBS4 Investigates 'English Speaking' Sign Flap
(CBS4) DENVER Arapahoe County is threatening to fire a veteran Public Works employee for promoting the fact that he is an English speaking American. "They claim it's offensive and I've been accused of discrimination and harassment, believe it or not, because of this," said Mike Gray, a heavy equipment operator with the Arapahoe County Road and Bridge Department for 16 years. The problems began last spring. Gray, 50, owns a lawn service business on the side. He was routinely driving to work in his pickup truck towing a trailer that he uses to carry lawn mowing equipment for his business. On the side of his trailer, the married father of two affixed a sign that reads "Lawn Services Done With Pride!! By An English Speaking American."
No First Amendment in CO?
"Offensive" or not, they want to fire the guy? If I got fired every time I was "offensive" I'd have had an awful lot more jobs by now. Hmm, say that back, lot more jobs, maybe that's a way to get more work? ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Most people think am Offensive too! I just believe in doing the right thing.
you are.....
after me....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
They are only illegal becouse our government wont legalize them. We can let these F$%$EN Arabs in though. mexicans work hard period as did all are relatives have in the past. you guys are just ignorant
-LMC
LMC
So every illegal Mexican is hard working and can work circles around any white American kid!
What a load of sh!t.
Who do you think your fooling with that statement?
Wonder why the jails down here in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California have so many of them in the cells if there so damned busy working their azzes off?
Don't go trying to say that its because their illegal, because its not, its because just like us white Americans, and every other race for that matter, there is a certain number of them that do illegal stuff.
To make a statement that one race is so much harder working then another shows just how ignorant one can really be.
When I was a teen construction work wasn't frowned upon as an option for a career. With the illegals driving down the wages it certainly isn't as attractive as it was in the good ole days! I know that I'll encourage my son to try something else, even though I can teach him how to build some of the best damn cabinets around. If things keep going the way they are nobody will want to pay for good cabinets anymore then they want to pay sheetrockers.
You want to call people ignorant, go back and read that line of yours, "Mexicans work hard period" now that's classic!
For the record, I'd like to see all the illegals become legal. That means do things legal as well. There in lies the problem, a lot of them dont want to do it the legal way.
Doug
Edited 3/16/2006 12:42 am ET by DougU
lot of them dont want to do it the legal way.
they don't have to become leagle... the ones that INS bust are back in a week to 10 days tops...
look at all the help vidoes and litachure put out by the Mexican goverment on how to tap into our system as an illeagle...
look at the caravans headed back to Mexico at the end of the year... It's a wonder that anything is left on the shelves at Wally world...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
look at all the help vidoes and litachure put out by the Mexican goverment on how to tap into our system as an illeagle...
Overlooking your misspelled words!!! :) No sh!t, the Mexican gov'ment don't want to loose that cash cow! There no. 1 or 2, don't remember which, source of revenue. Why dont they put that much effort into creating jobs for their people.
I'd ask you where the hell you been hibernating but even I know its early for hibernators to be surfacing!
Doug
Overlooking your misspelled words!!! :)
thanks...
free money is free money...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the ones that INS bust are back in a week to 10 days tops...
I have a Mexican friend that said the same thing. He said that when you send someone back, they bring two others with them. Essentially, they learn how easy it is to come over, get caught and then learn that there's really no repercussions for trying to find a better life here.
It's a complicated situation but the first step is to get everyone out of the underground. Put the tax burden on them, then get serious about prosecuting business' that hire illegals.
blue
Really. Nothing will change until there are severe reprecussions for employing illegals.
The title for this post is totally incorrect. It should be called:
"Underbid by Cheap, Greedy, Circumvent the Law American Born illegal Contractors who Take Advantage of illegally gained access Imigrants"
"Don't take life too seriously, you are not getting out of it alive"
why not rename it, "underbid by people of another generation that honest wants to work, while crews of another race whine and moan about government handouts". BOB thinks I,m an idiot
First I'd like to say I enjoy reading your posts and you sound like a very knowledgeable carpenter. I have been around construction off and on for 30 years now and I've never known a woman carpenter.I work as a Realtor and this gives me the opportunity to work around a large group of women. Many are fine people with high character.Over the years, when ever I've had a problem or dispute with another realtor, nearly each and every time it's been with a woman.Within the past two months I helped a woman realtor with a real estate transaction and she ended up owing me $2,400. She paid me $1,600 and when I got my check my mouth dropped open.
Professional courtesy and any male I've worked with would have been happy to pay what was owed. She shorted me $800 and I would probably have to puruse this in small claims court but I'm not going to.I could write a book with examples such as the above as they've occurred so many times over the past 30 years or so in my business experiences.Why am I writing this to you? Because I've personally lost all patience hearing these pleas "that women and minorities aren't treated fairly". None of us are treated fairly and I'm sick and tired of hearing people getting on TV and Radio and procleaim they are some kind of victim.Again, I don't direct this as something against you personally and I enjoy reading your perspective on everything that gets discussed in here..^^^^^^
Well, for one, the issue of illegals entering this country and the issue of women in non-traditional employ are complicated issues to say the least. Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut. But no, the issue needs airing and some different viewpoints need to be brought to light.As for women in the trades, I can tell you that I would have been in the trades years ago had the access been welcoming, but it was all but that. Where ever the men are that would have given me a chance then, I must have missed them, because all I ever ran into were jerks who just laughed and looked the other way, didn't call back or would say straight out, "We don't hire women." Period. Since I'm a woman, I think I can speak with some authority on that issue.What a man may see through his lens is very different than what a woman sees through her lens. This is one of the reasons why this issue is so difficult.Women have started entering the trades, but very slowly and not all of it has to do with men, but it starts there. Now men are more welcoming and women seem to pressure eachother more about conformance to traditional norms. ALso, many women still are afraid that the environment will be hostile to them or that they somehow will be seen as less 'feminine' by their peers and other men. I can't say what men think of women in the trades, there are all types. But I can say unequivocably that traditional avenues for women to earn a living that compares on a scale to that of trades people that require the same level of education or training don't exist. Women's 'liberation' may have been a great catch word for the seventies, but the social constructs of many decades are still in place and only slowly are breaking down.And I am trying to do what I can to encourage women to enter the trades because I do believe at this point the old guard of sexist attitudes is dying off. I can tell you it wasn't that easy even just ten years ago. One of those ways I attempt to help is by working with groups of girls to get them to not internalize stereotypes of 'butch' or whatever, but to feel ok with pursuing trades work and that it provides a rewarding and potentially well earning career.Many men I deal with are decent enough, but I still have to have the lingering feeling that possibly, they would never see me as capable no matter what. I don't know. From years of living in a culture that discounts women and puts them on a pedestal as a 'protected' and helpless 'species' seperate from men, I am not so naive as to say that sexism doesn't exist. I have run into many men who have no problem with the idea that women have no business in the trades. Often also, they are the ones who speak the loudest and want to speak for all men and assume all 'real' men share their views. I challenge their assertions quietly, by just doing my job. Also, I do not believe they represent the majority. Unfortunately, my conversations on this subject (which are often) with other women reflect that they still believe that working around men would be frightening, potentially traumatic to say the least. OFtentimes they whisper, 'You're really brave." I tell them the truth, I am just doing what I like and bravery has nothing to do with it, I feel safe and fine. But I am a lone voice in the herd. I also might add that here in my state, when the union had opportunities to recruit women into the trades, they made no effort to. It just wasn't important and still isn't from where I'm looking.As for illegals. What I attempted to say, but was disregarded was that the issue of illegals is a complicated one also with a vast array of social and economic issues that will not be solved by stopping up borders (a fantasy of epic proportions) or paying for longer prison sentences or more law enforcement. Penalizing the large employers who employ these people and draw them here is what will make some immediate inroads to the problem. Frankly, I don't see that happening anytime soon.Also, the United States has had their hands in the political and economic make-up of all the americas from Mexico on down for the last century at least. We thrive partly because we are able to obtain cheap labor and goods from these countries. Administrations have financed activities that control and oppress these countries for years, preventing them from building viable democracies. Keeping unions down and other efforts of the population to increase their working standards and thus raise their living standards assists is the goal. And even when I say that we all benefit, we benefit in the sense of having cheap goods and resources, but the greatest beneficiaries are corporate owners and operators who make millions keeping wages low, environmental standards non-existent and worker safety nearly non-existent. Couple that also with Mexico's policy of late to force indigenous people's off their homelands by eminent domain for increased expansion and you have more impoverished, isolated and poorly educated people flocking into Mexico city to survive who then move onto the US.I don't see any end in sight to the 'problem' and I think discourse is healthy. I don't think expecting people who are impoverished to go home and sit on their laurels and wait for their unresponsive government to help them is realistic. In the same light I don't think spending all kinds of money in chasing them around from the border or back again is going to solve anything. Most of those contractors who hire illegals get a slap on the wrist and yet they are the ones who give the reason to come here.Homeowners or small-time contractors who hire illegals off the street also are robbing from the taxpayer. Do you think they pay taxes on those hires? Do you think they pay for their medical care when they are injured working for them? OFtentimes these very people hire illegals because they get the opportunity to screw with their wages, offer them ridiculously low wages, etc. In other words, they are slimy and shouldn't have any association in the business anyway.My whole flaming post started with someone bragging that they scare illegals by posing as INS agents. NOt only do I find this a little sensational, I also find it symptomatic of people who are comfortable with the idea that their thoughts and actions constitute some 'solution' and that they also reflect the thoughts of everyone in white skin. I find such behavior morally repugnant at best and the racist overtones are hard to ignore. I get sick and tired of white folks making racist comments around me because like them, I have white skin and they somehow think that all white people share their racist, narrow views of people different than them. So thus, I speak up. IF someone can confidentally post about posing as INS agents and think everyone will share the joke, then I have just as much right to post my opposing view and I know that I am not alone.As for the woman realtor. Firstly, women can be jerks just like men, unfortunately, no groups have an exclusive hold on that factor. On a business level, I find that many women are harder than men, I think they feel they have to be that way in order to move up. Some of the worse people I've dealt with on the business end have been women and the farther up you go, the colder they tend to get. Also, might I add, the farther up you up the corporate ladder, the harder it is for women to break through, so one feeds the other.And as for those who wish to dissuade my views by making assertions about my being as 'dumb as bricks', seems expected blather from those who support reducing all solutions to 'them them them' and not looking at the greater picture. Lou mentioned earlier on this thread about how hard it is to get workers proper documentation to work legally. That system is no accident.ANother person posted about free trade and how that may equal the playing field. I believe in globalism and hope this is true. What I've seen though is that so far, free trade has been a one way street that has benefitted large corporations at the expense of the poorest people, which only fuels the problem.
"I can't stand this argument because it smacks of racism, pure and simple. "
So, tell us why you think that anybody who speaks out against illegal imigrant workers is a racist.
The OP asked about Mexican competitors. Mexican is a nationality. 69% of his non white competitors are of the Mexican nationality and 81% are of the "Hispanic Race." Most of the posts in this thread have not been at all racial. a very few were, but you didn't discriminate. You lambasted all of us "White Males" who happened to be discussing unlicensed contractor of any ilk, just like some bigoted racist sexist would have.
I think you waaaaay over reacted.
Executive Summary: Estimates of the Unauthorized Immigrant Population Residing in the United States: 1990 to 2000 Mexico is the largest source country for unauthorized immigration to the United States. The estimated unauthorized resident population from Mexico increased from about 2.0 million in 1990 to 4.8 million in January 2000. Mexico’s share of the total unauthorized resident population increased from 58 percent in 1990 to 69 percent in 2000. In addition to Mexico, six countries had more than 100,000 unauthorized residents in the United States in January 2000 --El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, and Ecuador.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:wpBrn-M_qC4J:news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060307/ap_on_go_ot/illegal_immigration+illegal+hispanic+ immigration+statistics&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1Tuesday's report by the Pew Hispanic Center said . . . An additional 22 percent come from other Latin American countries, mainly in Central America. About 13 percent are from Asia, and Europe and Canada combine for 6 percent.
What do you expect when 7 out of 10 offenders are of one country and 8 out of 10 of them come from (through) Mexico and speak "Mexican?"
Statistical accuracy in common speech?
Sainthood?
Next you'll be wanting us to refer to nosewipes by the manufacturers name instead of saying "Kleenex."SamT
I can't stand this argument because it smacks of racism, pure and simple. "
What is racist. That poor indigent ,uneducated people come here and over crowd our school , causeing undue stress on our school systems and use public services to cost of over 10 billion a year just here in Calif,
Not to mention increase in criminal activity plus the cost of incarcerating them???
What racist about that? Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Sancho:Any wave of immigration will put a burden on schools, etc. right? This country was built by immigrants was it not? Do we have to go down that road?As for increasing crime rates, seems to me illegals would rather keep a low profile than draw attention to themselves through committing crime. I'd want to see documentation to support the assertion that illegals commit the brunt of crime in california.You hate poor people? I thought the big american dream was the ability of all people to work up from poverty. I thought poverty was supposed to be viewed as an opportunity to 'make it' not as a disease.Maybe pushing to make birth control more available in latin american countries might reduce the birth rate some and ameliorate some of the problem. Last I knew, this administration was all against that.
racist is one think a certain race is better than another because of breeding and generic. prejudice is pre judgement, an opinion already maded. so the mexician crew is not racist, their union is no better than anybody else. but i would trade another minority group for a mexician crew anyday. thats prejudice. BOB thinks I,m an idiot
girlbuilder
As for increasing crime rates, seems to me illegals would rather keep a low profile than draw attention to themselves through committing crime. I'd want to see documentation to support the assertion that illegals commit the brunt of crime in california.
There's plenty documentation out there but I'm sure you'd just dismiss it as "white mans propaganda"
You have that same "poor me" attitude that all the people that feel that they haven't been given a fair shake use. Get over it. I've been around the trades/factories for 30 plus years and I've seen very little to stop women/blacks/minorities from entering the business. Matter of fact a lot of cites have special programs that help the minorities get contracts and such. And yes, there is definitely racism/bigotry out there, never going to end either.
You try to dismiss a lot of the posts on here as racist comments because you don't want to deal with the facts, is it easier for you to chalk it up to racism and "living in the white mans world" then get the facts and make an educated decision?
Your so far off base on a lot of the issues dealing with illegal immigrants that I don't think you can see the problem from where your standing!
Doug
The individual who made the assertion about illegals causing the crime rates to jump should make the effort to find the documentation to support their assertion. I don't need to jump all over to find documentation to disprove something they haven't even made any effort to prove should I now?I've read plenty on the issue of race and crime and the stats show that black people make up a large majority of those incarcerated for crimes while at the same time white people generally do less time or no time for the same crimes. The FBI has studies on it as well as Human Rights Watch. But then again, Human Rights Watch has always been dismissed as a 'left wing propaganda machine' by those who don't like their findings.Statistically, non-black people of color make up a very small portion of national crime rates overall. As for women in the trades, the presence of anti-discrimination laws on paper isn't going to change the complex social fabric that keeps women out of trades, out of higher end corporate work or any other traditionally and still predominantly male areas of the workplace.
To ignore the supremacy of the male in the our social construct and how that effects the decisions that women make is pretty disingenuous.But my beef is that so many people want to lally along and believe the world is 'jes all fine and wonnerful' and that those who 'ain't gettin' their peice, well must have something wrong with them. B.S. You hate it when I make blanket generalizations, but then you do the same. And, no one seems to care to comment on the issue of doing something about those who hire illegals. Just spewing hate onto illegals seems to be the thing to do around here?Racism is not simply explained in a single sentence. Racism is an ongoing social construct invented to exclude from certain areas of participation in society, one group or another, based on physical characteristics associated with the construct of 'race'. This social exclusion may be mandated, as in the pogroms of eastern europe prior to WWII, or socially constructed as in the socially based racism in america today. Although many wish to believe that racism died in 1964 when Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act into law, it didn't. As a social construct, our society is one in which being of eurocentric origin (caucasion) is valued higher overall and it is accepted for classes and sectors to be meeted out by racial/ethnic identification.There bite on that for awhile.
Edited 3/25/2006 9:04 pm ET by girlbuilder
While I don't agree with all of what you're saying, I do agree with a fair amount of it. I just wanted to step in and say that, regardless of my opinions, you're doing a good job of explaining yours intelligently without getting too emotional about your arguments or the arguments of those disputing you. That in and of itself serves as proof of the foolishness of much of the female stereotyping.
Regarding your insecurities about what other male associates may think of you being on the jobsite: Someone once told me that what other people think about me is really none of my business. That little tidbit has served me well in life. Who cares what they think? You probably can't change their opinion anyway, so why bother wasting your energy trying?
We recently put a second floor addition on our own home. We had about 4 or 5 plumbers doing the rough-in of the plumbing and HVAC. I watched them all pretty closely as I was also working onsite with and near them. One of them was female. She held her own and then some. But when it came time for the finishes, her installations were light years better than the other (male) plumber that they sent to help out. She just "got" it. I don't know if a "woman's touch" is the right thing to say, in fact, you may even think saying something like that is in and of itself chauvinistic, but I mean it as a compliment. It was just obvious that she cared more about the appearance of the finished product than her male counterpart. She also took greater care in protecting the other finished surfaces she was working around. The other guy slid a 5' vanity across the newly tiled floor, scratched up some of the walls putting a toilet into a tight corner, and did the bare minimum in cleaning up after himself.
A couple minor issues have come up with the plumbing and HVAC work that the outfit did for me. Whenever I call with an issue, I specifically ask for Laurie. She seems to understand that our house is no longer a jobsite, but is now our home and treats it as such. That goes a long way in my book. I'm sure a male plumber is just as capable of giving such good service, but a female may in fact be more inclined to give such service without as much prompting.
I'm not sharing this information to dispute any of the claims of those with whom you're currently engaging in this thread because I don't see any of them saying women are incapable. I'm just sharing it to let you know that you're not totally alone as a woman in the trades who is capable of producing high caliber work with the "big boys". Male, female, black, white, orange.... I don't care what shape, size, color, gender, or breed you are.... if you're a good tradesperson you have my utmost respect. Keep up the good work.View Image
Your not backing any of your allegations, yet you ask others to do so.
What, the white man keeping you down again! Some of the time you spend whining about your position in life might better be spent doing something to improve it.
Where did you see me making blanket statements? I think I mentioned that bigotry/racism is still out their raising its ugly head.
I'd venture to guess that somewhere in everybodies past they have been judged without merit, doesn't mean that they should give up and cry about the bad breaks that came there way.
NOBODY on here has mentioned that they don't want any of the Mexicans/Latinos/Hispanics to come to this country, only that they want them to come here on the same terms as the ones most of us have to live with, you know, taxes, paying for your hospital visits, helping to learn the language/customs and all the other things that go with moving to a new country. Not really that much to ask for is it?
Doug
Racism is an ongoing social construct invented to exclude from certain areas of participation in society, one group or another, based on physical characteristics associated with the construct of 'race'.
Whoops! Sorry.
Racism is a concept invented to demonise the instinctive human survival tactic of not trusting anybody who is not in the tribe.
You can no more eliminate the feeling than you can get rid the urinary tract.
SamT
racism is sunday afternoon NASCAR. BOB thinks I,m an idiot
well lets start with your racist accusation.
Exactly what race are you talking about. Latin race? no such animal..
mexican race , nope not either
my personal fav.. hispanic race...
Ive yet to find hispanica anywhere on any map.
now as for :
Sancho:
Any wave of immigration will put a burden on schools, etc. right? This country was built by immigrants was it not? Do we have to go down that road?
As for increasing crime rates, seems to me illegals would rather keep a low profile than draw attention to themselves through committing crime. I'd want to see documentation to support the assertion that illegals commit the brunt of crime in california.
You hate poor people? I thought the big american dream was the ability of all people to work up from poverty. I thought poverty was supposed to be viewed as an opportunity to 'make it' not as a disease.
Maybe pushing to make birth control more available in latin american countries might reduce the birth rate some and ameliorate some of the problem. Last I knew, this administration was all against that.
go to http://www.cis.org and spend some time and read the material..then make your comments
also go to http://www.fairus.org for more info. But I like CIS better.
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
My first response is to say, "Oh please!" But I will try to recognize your anger. That you recognize that some of the posters have been racist is a good thing to read.And as I said, I don't think that we're going to put a stop to the flood of illegals anytime soon. its like trying to stop the tide by standing in line at the beach. Its not killing the weed at its roots and one big root is those who persist in hiring illegals, who by their very classification are a marginalized sector of the population open to rampant abuse. That's why people like to hire them.Not to mention like I said, that taxes don't get paid, when they injured they must shuffle alone to the hospital for everyone else to pick up the tab (while the employer just finds another replacement). The anger I think it misplaced and I think that as long as it is misplaced onto those who have little incentive or power to stop, nothing will change. Also might I add that the thread title "Underbid by Mexican workers" smacks of racism in that the assumption is made that the speaker means illegals, which is not what all Mexicans or other spanish speaking people are.It all rolls into the same thread as far as I'm concerned: that unethical people outbid and draw down the trades all the time, whether by hiring cheap, illegal labor, ignoring taxes, not having insurance, having little to no business skills (or care to learn), working without permits, working without proper licensing where required, they all come under the same banner: What can we do to root out the selfish, unethical contractors?
It seems that you place the blame solely on those who hire the illegal immigrants, not those who are a party to the indiscretion.I'm always bothered when people blame one half of the offending parties, it's kind of like scorning a contractor who pays his guys cash when those employees could cease their contribution to an illegal act. The Mexican immigrants are in exactly the same situation, sure those who hire them are at fault but the illegal immigrants are still breaking the law.In http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=70894.133 you fault Ron for complaining about the burden that the illegal immigrants are to society. You suggest that he "hates poor people" and would like to "make birth control more available in latin american countries"? How can you construe from his comments that they are a burden on his state that he hates the fact that they still breed?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon:A poster, I believe it was he or one of his supporters stated that something to the effect that their burdgeoning numbers are taxing the school systems (which i don't dispute), bringing up the crime rate (which I do dispute) and breaking the social services sectors.This poster and others than link this to the constant wave of illegals flooding the border. The statement about children going into the school system seems a pretty clear reference to breeding. In fact, Mexico and Latin America and their American counterparts have been shown to be one of the fastest growing populations in america. Lack of birth control in Mexico and latin america, coupled with very traditional values about family keep the birth rate high."They're coming over here like flies!" seem to speak of a real fear of their increasing numbers and the feeling of being outnumbered. I was being snarky, but in all fairness, my comments are intended to skewer mainstream assumptions that often need not be spoken, but merely eluded to for the reader to get the gist of the meaning.Lack of population control in latin america and mexico among the impoverished is a problem that mexican and latin america authorities know this. But cultural mores are slow to accept concepts such as birth control that are considered "radical" to our southern neighbors.And about poor folks. The same or another poster stated something to the effect that they are all poor and uneducated. To which I say so? And thus they are willing to bust their humps to make a buck. I thought that was what we americans prided ourselves on, that good ole work ethic. Poverty isn't a contagious disease, its a symptom of greater social problems.All the legislation I have seen punishes the illegals and does little to those who hire them. I think that is wrong. It only increases their marginalization and vulnerability to further and deeper exploitation by unscrupulous jerks who can have a few more threats and wrenches to throw in the works to negotiate wages even lower. It just makes no sense and solves nothing.People who pay cash to employees to evade taxation are just foolish anyway and playing with disaster.
People who pay cash to employees to evade taxation are just foolish anyway and playing with disaster.
Wrong.
People who pay cash do not avoid taxation. The bottom line at the end of the year is larger because the wages are not deducted, therefore Uncle Sam gets his share a different way. Either way, the taxes get paid.
blue
Blue: I'm pretty sure that taking out federal payroll taxes "as you go" is actually a legal requirement.
I know for 100% sure that taking out city wage tax as you go where I am is a law chiseled in stone.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
"racism in that the assumption is made that the speaker means illegals,"
So all this ranting and raving you're doing is because of an assumption you have about the intentions of the OP?
I see.
And here I was, angry because you called me a racist.
You must be a Liberal. They always think that another persons words means what the listener intends.
BTW, not all Mexicans are hispanics. Some are Irish, some are German, some are Chinese, some are Black, some are Japanese, some are. . . .
In fact "Hispanic" is not a Race. If anything it means a dark complected Caucasion who is, or whose forefathers were, a citizen of a nation south of the United States.
My last girlfriends mother is a naturalised U.S. Hispanic whose forefathers, going back over a thousand years, lived in the area of Colorado.
SamT
Edited 3/25/2006 11:03 pm by SamT
Sam and ALLI'm glad to see someone adding some facts to this discussion that has mostly been rhetoric. More often than not, these discussions are tainted by irrational and emotional rants.I'll offer a few more facts and some thoughts to hopefully add some balance to the discussion. Your Pew stats are brand new, but the number of illegal immigrants has doubled since 2000 and now figures to be around 12 million and counting. Your Pew source estimates that another 1.3 million immigrants will arrive this year (about 1/2 illegal).You informed the discussion by showing where they come from. I'll add that about 1/3 of the immigrants are college educated & mostly legal, 1/3 are high school graduates, and the other 1/3 lacking a decent education and mostly illegal.The drive behind all of this movement of people is of course greater opportunity. In Mexico, 54 million people earn less than $3/day. It is actually amazing that there are only 7 million or so Mexicans here illegally. If I lived in that kind of grinding poverty, you can bet I would become illegal the first chance I had. Unfortunately, only 66,000 visas are available for construction workers, so most are "forced" to be illegal. Ironically, USA Today reported a couple of weeks ago the the 1500 border patrol agents added since 911 have kept many illegal immigrants from going home (safer to stay than risk not being able to return). There are a variety of reasons to be optimistic though. The Mexican economy has turned around, the middle class is now growing quickly as good jobs are being created in very large numbers according to a recent Business Week article. This will help stem the flow more than any border patrol or fence could.A few more thoughts:Before he retired, Alan Greenspan was explaining the "Mysterious Strength" in the U.S. housing market...he attributed it to "high levels of immigration." Interestingly about 14% of construction jobs are now held by immigrants and about 14% of recent, first-time home buyers are immigrants (many illegal, but increasingly embraced by banks and mortgage companies). Immigrants take about 10 years to earn enough to buy a home so the recent wave of immigration will provide an additional boost to the housing market as their share of first-time home buying continues to rise to 20-33% over the next 10 years.In effect, many who complain about immigrants could be unemployed if they all left and stopped renting and buying houses. According to the BLS two million new jobs have been added in construction in the last 10 years (up to 7 million from 5 million). Unemployment now stands at 4.8% (down from 5.4% a year ago), even with a million new workers streaming across the border. How is that possible?We have a growing economy (243,000 new jobs created just last month...and that is just the legal "reported" jobs) and the boomers are retiring in droves. The strangest reason was discussed in a front page article in the Wall Street Journal. Immigrants actually create more jobs than they take. They tend to be entrepreneurial. Here is some rhetoric to back that up. The best painters, landscapers, and drywall guys I have worked with were Latinos. They "got legal," went into business for themselves, and now have several crews working for them...including some white guys...and even a girl.
You wake up tomorrow morning to the smell of coffee and bacon. You're a bit surprised since you're the first one up.
You go downstairs to find some very nice people in your house who have made you breakfast, vacumed, and put some fresh flowers on the table.
Trouble is you don't know any of them, they broke into your home so that they could do for you what others wouldn't, they refuse to leave, and they want to get paid, as they have families to support.
Do you?
A. thank them and pay them in cash or
B. call the police
What would you do?
Yes, this is a grossly simplified analogy, but to me this what illeagal immagration is. No matter what they're doing now, if they entered illeagally, they are criminals. Period. They should have entered legally like millions before them did.
Enter legally, welcome, good luck, and God bless.
Anyone here illegally should be returned to their home country.
Then watch unemployment and rates of pay find new and different levels then we have today.
Maybe fast food will cost a little more and people won't get it as often.
Maybe having your lawn cut will go from $30 to $40 and more of us will have to do it ourselves.
Maybe a carpenter will be able to make a fair wage for a fair days work and support their family at a decent level.
Maybe I'm done venting for now, but I do wonder what others think...
Buic
Am with you 100%!
Big protest here in Denver today, 30K people. They think its OK to enter the USA by their own means (illegally), but its unfair to ask them to follow the rules!
Ditto....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
If only it all were so simple. In principle I agree with you 100%, but unfortunately the system is horribly broken and the ones who can do the fixing won't do anything meaningful to change it.When our people's ancestors (that means of us of euro ancestry) entered this country, entry was easy. For some, entry was forced long ago.My how things have changed. Ellis Island is a museum and lady liberty peers down at rich speed boaters, tugs and freighters.I often think about what many would do if the illegals did in fact just pack up and leave, what would happen? It would be interesting to see, but I don't hold my breath for that day. My question to my quests would be, who brought you here? and I'd want to see some justice done there.Also, I almost forgot the real scum of this whole thing; the layers upon layers of 'coyotes' and others who profit by smuggling humans across the border in whatever way they can imagine, often levying huge fees to their charges that often take months and months to pay off and exposing them to all sorts of risk, only to leave them holding the bag if their plans are foiled in the process.
I don't think I'm the one doing the ranting sam. And yes, that is correct Sam, 'hispanic' is not a race and actually the word is a white invention used to mesh all spanish speaking people together. This I say from being told by the many spanish speaking friends i've known and having read from spanish speaking writers on the subject of ethnic identity. But then the concept of 'race' itself is nothing more than an ancient construct developed for the benefit of colonialism and imperialism to justify horrendous practices such as slavery and the social acceptance of the practice here two hundred years ago. And let us not forget Hitler's wonderful use of the concept of 'race' for his own benefit.I understand that illegals are breaking the law, but frankly I'd break the friggin' law too if it meant feeding my children. Like Bass says, the growth of the Mexican economy may hopefully be able to give these people meaningful opportunities at home. I'm sure they'd prefer to stay home than risk their lives and health to come and be exploited over here.Also, if you hail from the right of the political wing, you'd be foolish to not consider all the potential republican voters there are to reap among the mostly traditionalist, conservative catholic Mexicans. The way things are looking right now, Bush could use all the help he can get.Thanks basswood and deisel for offering some cogent thoughts to this thread. Diesel, I think that many women take extra special care in seeing to it that the job is done well, expecting that all eyes are upon them as they work. And thanks for your input on my darkest fears, I agree its foolish, but it creeps in sometimes, albeit, less as I get my feet under me in the biz.And to who ever it was that made the comment about whether or not I'd hire women, well of course I would if they were qualified and I'd train them myself or steer them somewhere where they could learn. I'd be all for it. I did hire a friend of mine to work with us for a while. She just finished her master's in psychology and was burned out and wanted to do something totally different. It was pretty comical as she drove my partner (who tends to yell a bit) crazy by saying often, "You seem angry Frank, are you alright?" or praising him, "That was very nurturing of you." when he was teaching something, which he really is awesome at. She didn't stay long, "That was really fun, but I don't think I want to do this all the time." she said to me with her therapist-like warmish kinda smile. she was too damn funny.
"But then the concept of 'race' itself is nothing more than an ancient construct developed for the benefit of colonialism and imperialism to justify horrendous practices such as slavery and the social acceptance of the practice here two hundred years ago."
Good grief, girl! where did you get your history?
The Celts practiced racism. So did the Moors, the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the saxons, the Chinese, the japanese, Native Americans ( north and south), the. . .
Racism is as old as mankind. So is slavery.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C002739/AfricaSite/lmslaveryintro.htm: Slavery has existed in various forms throughout most of recorded history,
http://www.octavia.net/anglosaxon/slaves.htm: As in all of Northern Europe, slavery had a long history amongst the continental Angles and Saxons,
http://abacus.bates.edu/~mimber/Rciv/slavery.htm: From the period beginning with the end of the 2nd Punic War through the fourth century CE, slave ownership was widespread throughout the Roman citizenry
http://www.innercity.org/holt/slavechron.html: In fact, the first twenty "Negar" slaves had arrived from the West Indies in a Dutch vessel and were sold to the governor and a merchant in Jamestown in late August of 1619, as reported by John Rolfe to John Smith back in London. . . Indeed, the general assembly of Virginia in 1662 passed an act which directly and consciously invoked Justinian code: partvs seqvitvr ventram, whereby a child born of a slave mother was also held to be a slave, regardless of its father's legal status.
We are still not free of slavery, not even if our "enlightened" country;
http://www.catholicexplorer.com/explore/regional2005/human-trafficking-becomes.shtml: Those who are most vulnerable hail from nations in the state of chaos, war or civil uprisings, including refugees, abandoned and orphaned youngsters, migrant workers and those sold by family or friends for profit. It’s a “$9 billion annual industry,†and it is “tied for first place with weapons sales†as the top money-making industry that crosses multiple borders and continents, she said citing statistics gathered by the UN Secretary General’s office. The statistical breakdown indicates between 18,000 and 20,000 people are smuggled into the United States each year. Sister Storch suggests that number is dubiously conservative. Realistically the total amount of people smuggled into the Unites States to participate in the sex industry is more likely to climb as high as 50,000 a year, she said. Worldwide, statistics gathered by the United Nations indicated an estimated 27 million people are “currently enslaved.†Besides the United States, the market provides for human trafficking between economically deprived countries, namely regions in Russia, India, China, Eastern Europe, Latin America and Africa to live in Italy, Sweden, Brazil, France, Spain and elsewhere.SamT
"'hispanic' is not a race and actually the word is a white invention"What is a WHITE INVENTION other than White Out (tm)?From M-W;"Etymology: Latin hispanicus, from Hispania Iberian Peninsula, Spain"BTW, Hispanic is a race. Carpenters and Breaktimers are also races."Main Entry: 3race
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
1 : a breeding stock of animals
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>
3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : BREED c : a division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descent and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type
4 obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition
5 : distinctive flavor, taste, or strength"It is interesting to note that I could not find any reference to a government definition of race as they used it on the 2000 cenus.I put Human Race.As for the statics they have been posted time and time again in different threads in the Tavern.And I am surprised that this has not moved there yet.
"And yes, that is correct Sam, 'hispanic' is not a race and actually the word is a white invention used to mesh all spanish speaking people together."
No it was invented by a latin group like mensa or something simuluar..in correct againBuck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
here is some info from cis .org
Please remember it is old info and the numbers have increased.
Current Numbers
Click here for publications on this topic
During the 1990s, an average of more than 1.3 million immigrants — legal and illegal — settled in the United States each year. Between January 2000 and March 2002, 3.3 million additional immigrants have arrived. In less than 50 years, the U.S. Census Bureau projects that immigration will cause the population of the United States to increase from its present 288 million to more than 400 million.
The foreign-born population of the United States is currently 33.1 million, equal to 11.5 percent of the U.S. population. Of this total, the Census Bureau estimates 8-9 million are illegal immigrants. Other estimates indicate a considerably higher number of illegal immigrants.
Approximately 1 million people receive permanent residency annually. In addition, the Census Bureau estimates a net increase of 500,000 illegal immigrants annually.
The present level of immigration is significantly higher than the average historical level of immigration. This flow may be attributed, in part, to the extraordinary broadening of U.S. immigration policy in 1965. Since 1970, more than 30 million legal and illegal immigrants have settled in the U.S., representing more than one-third of all people ever to come to America's shores.
At the peak of the Great Wave of immigration in 1910, the number of immigrants living in the U.S. was less than half of what it is today, though the percentage of the population was slightly higher. The annual arrival of 1.5 million legal and illegal immigrants, coupled with 750,000 annual births to immigrant women, is the determinate factor— or three-fourths— of all U.S. population growth.Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I think basswood did an excellent job of explaining how immigrants, whether illegal or not contribute to the overall economy.
Latest paper written on how they are hurting the native ( non illegal) poor
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back206.html
Now do you have anything other than "your feelings" or an opinion...
Ive given you data.Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That's actually a fairly interesting short little peice. It accentuates an issue I've harped on a lot regarding women entering the trades. As women, often those who need a good paying job to raise a family (due to divorce or whatever), they don't choose to go into the trades. The study states:"It would be an oversimplification to assume that each job taken by an immigrant is a job lost by a native."Exactly what I've been saying."What is clear is that the last five years have seen a record level of immigration. At the same time, the unemployment rate of less-educated natives has remained high and the share that have left the labor force altogether has grown significantly."Which brings up larger questions of why these individuals remain unemployed or, possibly underemployed, while employers choose to hire illegals or immigrants.Many would say that the work ethic of native borns is not the same as immigrants from more impoverished countries. That indicates to me that we have a serious social problem with our own culture? Of the points of the study is the following:"Some of the occupations most impacted by immigration include maids, construction laborers, dishwashers, janitors, painters, cabbies, grounds keepers, and meat/poultry workers. The overwhelming majority of workers in these occupations are native-born."Sticking to immigrants that are illegal it seems other significant issues arise. Among the above job markets, how many employers choose illegals to escape regulations or laws that they'd have to otherwise obey if they had more empowered and aware, immigrant or native born employees?
Oh did I mention how a couple of them stole the knobs for the car heater and fan yesterday while the wife was at a laundry mat washing our blankets...
How do I know theyre illegals who did it...b/c of the neighborhood.. either illegal or children of illegals....Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yeah well Sancho, for the last twenty years I've been living in whitey-land NH (total non-white population somewhere around 2% for the whole state) and you know what? Petty theft is pretty high around here too, depending on what area you're in, unfortunately.
Does anyone have statistics on the percent of black youth who drop out of high school? My understanding is that it's very high percentage. It's a major social problem.Does anyone have the statistics on the percent of unemployed black youth? My understanding is that it's also very high (black youth age 18 to 30).How do we fix these two problems?.^^^^^^
How do we fix these two problems? Trade them for mexicans?. BOB thinks I,m an idiot
well here's a little popourri of illegal criminal acts
http://tancredo.house.gov/irc/crime.html
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
no wonder you feel like you do.
heres the data on your state
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_focus1e8a_sup
more
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_researchda47
and mine
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_focusb63d_sup
and alas more
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research0c37_2
and a little more info for you
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research736f
be sure to check out all the links including impact and go to the home page and check out things like crime then tell me about it
like I said. All you've given me is your "feelings" and "thoughts" Im giving you cold hard facts.
You cant dispute the facts.
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 3/26/2006 10:45 pm by Sancho
Edited 3/26/2006 10:48 pm by Sancho
Edited 3/26/2006 10:53 pm by Sancho
Edited 3/26/2006 10:56 pm by Sancho
another article of interest about your poor indigent illegals who are poor people coming to work
http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3633496Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I didn't grow up in this state, far from it. I have lived in phoenix, two cities in new mexico and also grew up most of my life in the St. Louis area. I am well aware of race issues and tensions as they exist across this country. The only difference here is that I find that most people, although they still ascribe the same steroetypes to most groups not like the 'norm', they have little first-hand experience with such groups.Sadly, those who live among people of 'color', that is of different races are also not attuned to what life is like for them as well as our society is seperated cultural, if not socially. White folks tend to stay away from the 'other' and middle class white folks also include the 'other' to be people whose earnings fall into the category of 'poor' or 'low income' regardless of race.The study you cited, based on all figures of immigration, made a point that 'taking of native jobs' could not be inferred from the study and shouldn't be as it comprised an issue composed of very complex social issues, most issues that, as illustrated here, white people are not willing to consider.Do predominantly black or low income neigborhoods have schools that are prepared to send their kids to college or even keep them interested long enough to keep them in school? Do those who grow up in ghettoized neighborhoods feel welcome by the rest of society or do they feel that they are pre-judged by those who hold the keys no matter where they go? Do children segregate themselves on the playground by race and class? Do children internalize racial and class tension and thus either act to alienate or give in to pressure of alienation and seperation? Do those seperated by class and/or race have access to the same advantages that middle class white kids have?Are we a society that is seperated along the lines of color and class? I would say yes. What must be done about it? I don't know, but I do know that there is no easy solution. As for black communities, one thing has been certainly proved: public housing ghettoizes children and isolates them from the larger society, so they do not learn or assimilate as they need to in order to gain the social and then all the other attendent skills needed to succeed. In many large cities, such as chicago, slum houses are being taken down and experiments along the line of neighborhood integration are taking place.But that won't solve all the issues. Only 24% of the general population goes on to college. Of that percentage, only 3% of people of color and about 7% of low income whites. That figure for upper and middle income white kids is something like 75% and the higher up the scale one goes, the more they attend college as a rule. Also, the higher household income one comes from, the easier it is to get into higher ranking colleges. And the idea that these kids are smarter does not bear out. They fit in better to the demographical social and cultural patterns that colleges look for.But that only applies to those attending college or not attending college. community colleges, the route pursued by most non-white and low income whites does not adequately prepare a student for entrance into a higher ranking university. But a high school education and an upbringing in a higher income home will, without the need for a community college transfer even.As for the trades. Latino and mexican people by and large assimilate into the culture at a much higher rate that black people and even low income whites. It is an interesting fact that Latino and Mexican people, do have a higher propensity to save their monies, plan for home ownership, start their own companies and also place a higher priority of conformance to traditional standards at home and have high expectations of acheivement for their children.OF course this doesn't speak for all people. Just as everyone here protests that I generalize about 'white males' so the same goes the other way around. Interesting how this distaste for generalization only is acutely felt when applied personally, while sweeping generalizations, mostly negative, are made about people of color or different class status.It appears to me that what is feared most by some here is the impending knowledge that the dominance of 'white people' in america is soon to end. Studies say that by 2056, america will become more predominantly brown and than white. Whether that means a 'loss of america as we know it' is yet another thing. I'd posit that whatever the immigrant's race or social status, language or other, that the 'american way' is embraced by all entrants and that assimilation to such cultural mores will take place.I doubt that all people of color are going to stand up one day in 2056 at 12:00 pm and say, "Ok white folks, you're time has come."America has no claim to whiteness when looked at from its purest ideal. It is and always has been a beacon of hope and prosperity for all throughout the world and will continue to be. If you fear brown people, then I guess the facts might upset you. If you don't have a problem with people of different skin color or ethnic association than yours, then open you ears and minds and talk to them as well. Get to know where they are coming from.
Dont think you will ever get the point.
It all starts with Illegal Immigrants!
Maybe if lived in one of the following states Calif, Tx., Az., Colo, you might understand the problem!
Iam so happy that Illegal feel its up to them to make the rules.
Its about time for rigrorous enforcement of existing immigration laws!
aint it werid that thousand of illegal immigrants can protest the governmemt, the government that they broke into.. BOB thinks I,m an idiot
Only in America!
I don't think that she believes anybody is honestly against Illegal immigration.
I think she believes that is just an excuse that everybody uses because they are really just predjudiced against non whites.
You have probably noticed that no matter how many times we say "illegal immigrants" she talks about Mexicans, blacks, and women.SamT
typical brain lock........Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Great spew of lib jive .. but no meat and potatos.
Ive wrote and linked where theyve taken our jobs, over ran and ruined our schools cost us billions of dollars and thats all you got???Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>>"If you fear brown people, then I guess the facts might upset you. If you don't have a problem with people of different skin color or ethnic association than yours, then open you ears and minds and talk to them as well. Get to know where they are coming from."
Girlbuilder, I don't fear most people and I have an open mind. I'm not a "racist" and so on.
That said, there's all kinds of people on all sides of the issue. If you want to know where some of them are "coming from," come visit me and I'll walk you through a few different neighborhoods. Some you will probably like. Some you have a low likelyhood of surviving depending on the time of day.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
<<I have lived in . . . two cities in new mexico . . .>>And leaving out Memorial Day at the lake, that would be two thirds of them, right? <G>The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
Wrong, I lived in New Mexico, Gallup for one year and Grants for one year. Gallup is right on old route 66 and three tribal nations border the town, the Zuni Pueblo, Navajo and Hopi. The Apaches live down the road at Window Rock, if I remember correctly, across the border in Arizona as well.Grants, which I hear is completely dead now, was at that time (late seventies) a uranium mining boom town, made up almost entirely of poor whites and Chicano people. A lot of illegals came through there.I lived for a year and a half in Phoenix, in 1981-82, in a small apartment on Indian School Road. At that time, Phoenix seemed like a quiet, yet large, city made up of a mix of chicano, white transplants and mexican people. senior citizens were everywhere. When I was in Grants and in gallup I went to high school in both communities. As a white person, I was a minority. To not be able to speak spanish was a deficit.In Gallup, the school system was made up of all the indian tribes, spanish people and some whites. Again, being white was to be part of the minority, although the teachers and the administration of both schools were primarily white. The academic levels of both schools were far below what I had been used to, even coming from schools in the St. Louis area that were about a 40% black and 60% white mix.When you speak of 'them them them' and talk of stealing, robbing, poverty and everything else negative, who can hear anything else but the racism? I grew up in a racially divided town, in fact much of St. Louis and the outlying areas are well known (at least when I was there) for being racially divided. In the city of Blackjack, just over the river in Missouri, for years the mayor was a KKK grand dragon or something. The unemployment of low income, lower educated whites and blacks has more to do with larger social issues of class and culture than it has to do with illegals or legal immigrants. Like I said before, you want enforcement of immigration laws, then presure to have employers in markets where illegals flourish policed more aggressively. Any other talk is just nothing more than a biting at the heels of the problem.
"Like I said before, you want enforcement of immigration laws, then presure to have employers in markets where illegals flourish policed more aggressively. Any other talk is just nothing more than a biting at the heels of the problem."
So in your opinion, the only possible solution to illegal immigration is to aggresively police American citizens?
Oooh Kay.SamT
Kind of like prohibition - if you can't enforce the law, then there might be something wrong with making it illegal.
My suggestion is Change the law = Let them all in - no limits. Anybody can hire them that wants to. BUT. all non citizens pay 5% payroll tax off the top plus full income tax with no deductions allowed. Employer takes it out of their pay before they see it. If you can prove you are a citizen, you pay taxes at the regular citizen rate.
Non-citizens are not eligible for all sorts of things, like unemployement benefits, welfare, voting, or social security benefits - but make them pay the full tax and then some anyway.
non-citizens are not elligble for citizenship until they can prove they have paid their taxes for the last ten years and can pass a written and oral test - in English.
It might not be the right answer, but the one we have sure isn't working.
Paul,
In my opinion. . .
A certain level of illegal immigration is wonderful for our nation.
Below that level and we don't have enough hard charging, free thinking, enterprising, dare all odds for the chance to improve their lot, individuals coming across to provide us with the proper "leavening."
If the difficulty in making it across the border is set too low, we start getting the not so desired elements.
You know what they say when you have too much business. . . raise your prices!
I think it's time to raise the price of crossing the border.
Congress is talking about passing stricter laws. Hah! Laws without enforcement merely destroys authority. It doesn't matter whether it's due to negligence or impoosibility, the result is the same destruction of authority.
Or we can do like Girlbuilder says and punish more Americans more harshly
.
SamT
I think we are already getting the not so desired elements. Anybody smart enough to really cause a problem can get across. Anybody that can raise a few hundred dollars can get across. About the only ones we are stopping now are the law abiding ones.
There has got to be a better answer.
Well, I wouldn't mind seeing the U.S., or as it's known by more people, the E.U. (Estados Unidos,) move its' borders to the North Pole and the Panama Canal.SamT
a problem with the immigration is. Alot of illegal have illegal social security numbers. money is being paid into these accounts. The government knows that these accounts are illegal, but they never have to pay the money back because the accounts are illegal. The govenment is making money of these people. why should they send them back, free money.. BOB thinks I,m an idiot
I work as a realtor and several years ago met a very nice hispanic couple. They had 2-3 children. They were hard working good people and they were polite and respectful and you couldn't ask for nicer clients to work with.We looked around and found a house they fell in love with.When they got ready to buy a house they ran into some problems with financing.Mom had a steady job and she had worked for her employer for 5-6 years. This is the stability the bank wants to see.The problem was with her husband as he was not a resident of the USA. Also he worked "under the table" and he did not have a social security number.They were behind the eight ball and there was no way out and I felt sorry for them. They were tired of renting. Not to mention that I would have really like to make a commission with them but that's another topic.^^^^^^
>>The problem was with her husband as he was not a resident of the USA. Also he worked "under the table" and he did not have a social security number.
Ran into a similar problem with my better half when we went to refinance. She is a Canadian here on H1 visa for years. Still waiting on green card (takes forever -- she and I not yet married and the joke is I'll marry her so she gets the green card and I get covered under her health plan).
Bank would not refinance 'cause she doesn't have the green card. I'm not sure how we got the original mortgage but I think the bank actually made a mistake in giving it to us.
Looking at it from the bank's point of view it makes sense.
On the other hand, I am a little touchy on the imigration issue 'cause I believe in some way that if it were not for the large number of illegals coming in, there would be more green cards avaialble each year for the "legals."
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
It's interesting hearing about the problems and conflicts related to citizenship, home ownership, financing, credit reports, social security, tax returns, insurance, etc etc etc.The last I remember the hispanic family was looking at their 18 year old daughter graduating from high school and she would then going to work full-time. After a period of time the daughter would be the co-applicant on the home loan application. The bank was willing to do this.Any earnings from Dad would go into the Daughter's savings account to make her look better on her loan application.These things get kind of crazy.
^^^^^^
>>The govenment is making money of these people. why should they send them back, free money.
You really think it amounts to much? Seems that many illegal aliens are off the books anyway.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
You really think it amounts to much? Seems that many illegal aliens are off the books anyway.
Billions! NPR coverd it not too long ago. Your in Philadelphia which is a strange place all it's own. Drive north into New Jersey and you'll see a gazillion illegals. Most will have documents. Not real ones, but good enough to get work.
For $500 in Morristown or Dover or Jersey City you could get all the documents you need, including a license.
Yeah, sometime around june you'll get caught and have to go get another set but to them, $500 for the ability to work for a year is worth it.
There was an NPR special on just that.
Turns out, Uncle sam is making Billions............Yes with a "B"................. Off of people who come across the border illegally.
Most places won't hire them without a SS card so they go get one. It's easy. I bet I could get all the documents I would need to work in the U.S. with $500 cash in less than two days. That includes by the way, a driver's license.
They get jobs, pay in to the system, and at some point the IRS sends the employer notification that the name and SS# don't match or that there is a John Doe # XXX-XX-XXXX working somewhere six states away and to please check their records to make sure they are reporting properly. The Employer questions the Employee, Employee promises to get it straightened out, then disppears never to be seen at that job again.
So all the money? We'll can't send it back to a guy who isn't here, can you. And why leave it for the guy whose SS# was being used? SO uncle sam gets to keep it.
Happened to me once while running someone elses crew. Got the notice, Talked to the guy about at the end of the day. He promised to fix it the very next day. Never saw him again.
A friend of mine is a manager for a large company in the Chicago area. He needs sometimes hundreds of relatively unskilled workers. They can make upwards of $750 a week if they hustle.
He tells me that no matter how hard they screen, once a year they get notices of Non-Matching SS# and names for at least 70% of their employees. The next day he comes to work at an almost empty shop.
If Uncle Sam didn't really want them to get SS cards they could make them difficult to counterfeit with embedded biometrics, etc. like green cards. Clearly, that is not a priority.
You would be surprised at how they get things done.
One key aspect of it is the ability to bribe public servants in high cost of living areas.
There was a guy at the DMV in NEw JErsey who got busted some time ago for making licenses for illegals.
They slipped him $200 and suddenly they had passed the driving test and had all the documentation they needed.
Plus, Most employers don't care." looks like an SS card, Smells like an Ss card, must be an SS card. Let me get a PHOTOCOPY for my records and you can get out there and get that new hammer swingin"
Six months later, they might actually look at that PHOTOCOPY when they get the Notice from Uncle Sam. Won't be able to tell much from it.
>>So all the money? We'll can't send it back to a guy who isn't here, can you. And why leave it for the guy whose SS# was being used? SO uncle sam gets to keep it.
Not trying to be argumentative here. Just keeping the discussion going. If you're talking about payroll taxes, Uncle Sam gets to keep most of it anyway. It's taxes.
BTW, legal aliens who are not lawful permanent residents must pay into SS and Medicare but are not eligible for benefits. I'm pretty sure state UC is the same too. Whatever the govt's motivations may be, I don't think just keeping the payroll taxes is it.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I'm no public administration wizard but here's what I got out of it.
Yes, the Goverment gets to keep most of the tax money. But they don't have to give back ANY of it as they would with regular leagl or documented workers.
The SS funds? Up for grabs. no need to alot them to the worker who isn't really here.
Thats the big hit. 15% on all of the illegals working under false documents up for grabs. " Hey, this money shouldn't really be in here, but we can't give it back, So? What can we do with it? You need a bridge in Alaska you say? Well see."
The states make out on a smaller scale with Unemployment and such.
Also, in most places, the majority of illegals are young single men who never take from the system. Only pay in.
here is a picture o how they treated the US flag at a recent protest...yea they love us huh? they are loyal to us huh?
look at the hatred they have for a country they want "citizenship" of......this says it all to me
View Image
View Image
Picture taken at a recent immigration protest,
The flag thing is pretty bad. Hadn't seen that. Whoever is doing that has lost touch with what you'd think they were trying to accomplish.
Lemme see, part of the whole illegal immigrant flack is based on securing America's borders from those who hate us and seek to do us harm. So to overcome that, lets demonstrate how much disdain we have for America. Senseless.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I agree, that's not really a good way to show your love, or to win any either. I guess they are trying to illustrate their frustration, but that came off ten times over.By the way, even though I don't watch teevee, no one blinked an eyelid around here that I know of. KInda shows how out of touch New England, especially, New Hampshire is with all of this.OF course in New Hampshire, for the first time in life since living here, I've met white folks who have never known a person color their whole lives. But these same people think themselves experts on issues such as immigration and race issues. Very isolated up here.
>>"OF course in New Hampshire, for the first time in life since living here, I've met white folks who have never known a person color their whole lives. But these same people think themselves experts on issues such as immigration and race issues. Very isolated up here.
I've noticed for a long time that what people think of other people has mostly to do with what they experience more than what they think they know.
When I was young, I had an Uncle who didn't particularly care for minorities. His experience with minorities was mostly black people who pretty much hated white people and made that well known.
I grew up in a white suburban neighborhood and went to a private high school where there was exactly one black student. He was a great guy. As stupid as it might sound, I never really thought much about race relations or whether race mattered 'cause the one black guy I knew was a good guy. Good thing he wasn't a jerk or anything I guess.
Now I live in Philly where in my neighborhood, race relations are really pretty good. Go to certain neighborhoods and you will likely be harassed or even harmed simply because you are white. I was in one neighborhood area recently in the wee hours where there are so few white people that when a man came at me to sort of check things out, he said I was a "decoy" and went away (there are a lot of undercover cops in certain areas at night).
It all has to do with what you experience, I think.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
agree, that's not really a good way to show your love, or to win any either. I guess they are trying to illustrate their frustration, but that came off ten times over
they know exactly what they were doing. Its to bad I could post pics of the sign they were carrying... Its our country we want it back..viva mexico, ect ect unless your here you guys dont see the half of it.
View Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
I've met white folks who have never known a person color their whole lives.Can I move up there.
"I've met white folks who have never known a person color their whole lives.Can I move up there."Sure you can, but sometimes the yankee puritanism kinda gets to me.
I've met white folks who have never known a person color their whole lives. But these same people think themselves experts on issues such as immigration and race issues. Very isolated up here.
Much like folks who live in states other than border states which are directly afected by these illegal jerks......but yet think they are just poor hardworking people who come here to better themselves.....
yea inna perfect world maybeView Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
I've lived in Texas, Arizona and Colorado for 35 years and I think you're full of hooey!
but yur profile says Minnisota...
make up our minds...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I've moved a few times (TX 10yrs, AZ 5 yrs, CO 20 yrs, MT 1 yr, Alberta, Canada 1 yr, Germany 1 yr, MN 5 yrs.Edit to add: I grew up in a military family, got used to moving & traveling...still enjoy it. Enjoyed living in all of those places. My siblings and parents live in FL, TX, CA, & CO.
Edited 3/31/2006 9:44 pm ET by basswood
so ya lived in Texas when 20 years ago........
is that why recently the governor of texas claimed a state of emergency b/c of illegal immigration tying to get the feds off their butts... you need info
here ya go
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research79e6
things change huh? dig deeper into the link find the extended info...
ya Im full of hooey huh?
Ive proved my point now you prove it wrong....
Ive decided to throw this one in for icing on the cake
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research2859
hooey huh?
View Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
Edited 4/1/2006 1:57 pm by Sancho
Edited 4/1/2006 1:58 pm by Sancho
I have two jobs to look at right now, so I'll have to get back to you on your links.For now, let me just add that the people you are so down on for costing CA 10 billion, add about 200 billion to our economy and still manage to send 13 billion home.I mentioned my pedigree of states to counter your "if you don't live here you can't understand" drivel. I only recently moved to Minnesota and both here and in Colorado (where I lived most of my life) they are a mixed blessing...you just choose to only see the negative.If the farms here didn't use their labor, most would go out of business. It is a global ag. market so we are competing with Brazil, Mexico, etc.It is complicated...no easy answers. As I mentioned the best answer is not a better fence or harsh laws and enforcement--it is the growth of the Mexican economy--and that is happening already. So chill out.
http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com/2006/03/krugman-immigration-facts.html"First, the net benefits to the U.S. economy from immigration, aside from the large gains to the immigrants themselves, are small. Realistic estimates suggest that immigration since 1980 has raised the total income of native-born Americans by no more than a fraction of 1 percent.Second, while immigration may have raised overall income slightly, many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans. The most authoritative recent study of this effect, by George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard, estimates that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration.""Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive. Worse yet, immigration penalizes governments that act humanely. Immigrants are a much more serious fiscal problem in California than in Texas, which treats the poor and unlucky harshly, regardless of where they were born.""
The thing that I am curious about:
If all the jobs are going to Mexico, why are the Mexicans coming here?
blue
pay down there is still not much..
cheap labor...
gotta know or bribe somebody to get a job...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Bill,You make some very good points. Looks like some reasonable info. for the most part.I'll do some more looking into it (have to work up a couple of estimates now & give the dog a bath), and get back to you.I think the big message there is "Stay in School!" Also worth noting that there is a net gain, be it ever so small, to our economy. The gains (and losses) are of course larger in certain fields and regions. I have attempted to point out that the gains in the housing market have been substantial and the importance of immigrants will continue to rise.
Edited 4/1/2006 3:51 pm ET by basswood
Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive.
Bill you links say almost word for word what mibne do. But it leaves one thing out... The major of them dont pay taxes all together but work under the tableView Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
There was something on the radio that 21 percent of illegal aliens receive social services benefits (welfare, section 8 housing, food stamps, etc etc etc).This is a higher percentage than the general population which receives social services benefits - only about 14 percent I think.This is one reason why we need to get control over illegal immigration - the expense of providing these benefits.I wonder how many american citizens were affected by this (they were entitled to receive the benefits but the funds were exhausted by the illegals)..^^^^^^ "The Older We Get, The Better We Were"Edited 4/1/2006 4:40 pm by mrfixitusa
Edited 4/1/2006 4:40 pm by mrfixitusa
Well, its heartening to see someone here reading the Tennessee Guerilla women's blog.hehe.
Dream on.I read Krugman's article in the local rag.And since the NYT has gone with premium services it is not generally available on the net.But I google found a couple of places that had copied it.
Even if the net cost of illegal immigrants in Texas were 3.7 billion (and I have several reasons to doubt that figure), Keep in mind that if Texas were an independent country it would almost be a member of the "G8". Texas alone has the 10th largest economy in the world and 8% of the US GDP (830 billion of the 11+ trillion US GDP). This Lone Star powerhouse is also growing it's economy faster than most of the handful of countries with larger GDP's.The cost of the illegal immigrants is overwhelmed by their contribution to the 80 billion dollar Texas food & fiber industry alone, not to mention their importance in the roofing and concrete businesses (as so humorously referenced in the above posts).3.7 billion is less than 1/2 of 1% of the Texas economy. This same economy recieves a contribution in the 15 to 20 billion dollar range from illegal immigrant participation in the work force.The roaring engine of Texas commerce is sucking in hundreds of thousands of new workers and Texas still hovers at "full-employment" level (only the "unemployable" remain so for any length of time).Edited 4/4/2006 10:58 pm ET by basswood
Edited 4/4/2006 11:40 pm ET by basswood
I took a ride around the area today on the way home. Kids wanted to see Trains ( Don't know why, 2yo and 7 yo Girls, but we went to see trains).
Anyway, I can catch two sets of traintracks in Macungie, a bout ten minutes away. I can also see a Hovanian, a Pulte, a Ryan, a THP and a Toll Job in the General area.
What I couldn't see? An english speaking, non-spanish speaking person who looked to be from somewhere other than South of the U.S. Mexico Border.
Oh, Wait, I lie. I did see a painter I know who is from Turkey, but that is the ONLY Exception.
Probably saw about 12 framing crews, six or seven roofing crews, saw two drywall crews packing up for the day and about 8 crews setting concrete forms.
Maybe we should stop worrying about imigration and just stop all the lowlife scumbags who build a junk product, charge as much as they possibly can for it and beat down the price of every trade until only illegals will work for the paltry sum they pay?
Doesn't matter how much we like it, the Illegals fill a need. A need for cheap labor that in some cases runs deep. Runs as deep as or fifteen to twenty year obssesion with Stock prices today and PE ratios.
Take away the need and they won't come around.
It is in fact a self fullfilling prophecy. Ask any of your friends in the trades if they want their kids to do they same thing. If any of them are like my friends, the answer will be "Hell No!". So, if all you get are the leftovers with no ambition, who by the way want a million dollars an hour, the illegals look pretty good. And, since you don't ahve to pay them as much, the bar is lowered on the standard of living and the quality of legal help you might draw is even lower...................and on and on and on..................!
You'll never stop them from coming here to try and do better......... Won't happen. You have to change the need for them. Don't know how, but every day wasted trying to keep them from coming, is one day not spent fixing the problem
Maybe we should stop worrying about imigration and just stop all the lowlife scumbags who build a junk product, charge as much as they possibly can for it and beat down the price of every trade until only illegals will work for the paltry sum they pay
Robert....don't stop all those scum bag builders too soon. My daughter just bought a house in Austin and she's having it built. She's hoping that they don't deport all the carpenters..err, I mean illegals, till it's done.
There's a very high liklihood that I'd buy one myself if I get something shook loose around here. When I was in Austin, I dropped in and got some pricing from one of the trailer bosses. I think he told me that they get some of those 3500 sf homes framed for 1.75 per foot with trusses and 2.25 if the roof is stick framed. it might have been 2.75 for trusses and 3.25 for stick framed....my memory is bad and I didn't write notes as soon as I got in my car. Either way, I wouldn't frame it myself if I could get it framed that cheap!
I walked through a frame in San Antonio. I really didn't think it was that bad. If it were mine, I would have spent a couple of hours doing some minor tweaking. I didn't check it for plumb and level though, but the basic framing wasn't that awful. It would have held drywall quite readily. I think the trimmers and remodlers expect too much out of a frame.
blue
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/14261442.htm"Missouri AG accuses lake developer of using illegal workers
DAVID A. LIEB
Associated PressJEFFERSON CITY, Mo. - A developer was charged Tuesday with failing to pay taxes on illegal immigrants who helped build luxury condominiums near the Lake of the Ozarks.Attorney General Jay Nixon claimed Michael G. Schlup used as many as 35 illegal workers last year while building the Plaza Gardens on the Lake condominium complex. One of those workers was killed when he fell from scaffolding at the work site, Nixon said.The charges accuse Schlup of failing to deduct employees' withholding taxes on a dozen instances from Jan. 5 through March 23, 2005, and failing to report and pay those taxes to the state. No charges were filed in the employee's death.Schlup, 49, was listed as a resident of Leawood, Kan., in the case filed in Camden County Circuit Court by Nixon's staff and local prosecutor Jim Icenogle.""Court documents supporting the charges claim Schlup paid cash to the illegal workers at a rate of $8-$9 an hour while they worked 60-70 hours a week on the condominiums. Not only were no withholding taxes deducted, but Schlup also failed to cover the employees with workers compensation insurance and report them to the Missouri Division of Employment Security, Nixon said."Another news story indicated that he advertised on spanish radio station in the KC area.
My cousin is a roofing contractor in east central Illinois. He is constantly underbid by a native born Hispanic roofer who: 1. hires only illegals 2. pays no taxes , workmans comp. (which is very high in Il.) or ssi 3. houses 15 in a 2 bedroom house that he owns and charges them rent for.
My cousin may have to close his business because he plays by the rules. It seems if you are an illegal alien no rules apply. Free medical, free education, free food stamps. I was rear ended in a company van by an illegal in Chicago. No license and no insurance. No prosecution either. License? We don't need no stinking license! My employer's insurance went up though.
There is a guy in my town who has been here 30 years and has never learned english. Every day the local radio station has a morning crime report. There are always Spanish surnames in it.
The local hospital has to treat all indigent people. By law they cannot refuse to do so. Illegals demand and get treatment and then disappear. I myself do not have health insurance and my out of pocket expense is increased to make up for the loss.
I'm thinking of emigrating to Mexico and coming back as an illegal alien.
>>I'm thinking of emigrating to Mexico and coming back as an illegal alien.
No need for that. Just have nothing to lose. Who needs insurance, etc. if you got nothing to lose.
Not good to have a large segment of the population with nothing to lose. Whatever side you're on and whatever think should be done about it, not good for the society to have large group with nothing to lose.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
There is no one so dangerous as a man with nothing to lose.
yea then they send all the money home to mexico..this is not unusual it happens all over.
They take from the economy and give nothing back
Oh ye forgot to mention the minutemen recently reported that the news media in mexico is telling people to get accross the border now as fast as they can b/c of the bill thats going through congress now...
they are going to look like a line of ants stretching all the way from the guatamalan border to tucson and san diego
View Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
Edited 4/5/2006 3:14 pm by Sancho
and the dems are killing us on this....
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/04/05/MNGOUI3ND61.DTL
we can always treat our illegals the way mexico does a little #### for tat
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/gaffney040406.asp
View Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
Edited 4/5/2006 3:24 pm by Sancho
The cost of the illegal immigrants is overwhelmed by their contribution to the 80 billion dollar Texas food & fiber industry alone, not to mention their importance in the roofing and concrete businesses (as so humorously referenced in the above posts).
This same economy recieves a contribution in the 15 to 20 billion dollar range from illegal immigrant participation in the work force.
Ok wheres your proof
I just heard yesterday (I have no proof yet of this) but the average american household spends approximately $300 a year for produce.
The illegals who pick the food make a average of $ 22 dollars of that. Now give the workers a raise say 40% and hire legal immigrants anfd the total cost of the food would only go up about $9 bucks a household.
So I say pay the nine bucks more and get rid of them.
The unions were mad b/c the illegal who are carps are making 1/2 of what the union carps were making in 1985.
So how can a honest guy compete.
A guy called a talk show and said he hires illegals, makes lots of money off them, pays them cash , no taxes, health care ect, in fact he said he pays them about 1/6th of what he would pay a legal worker. Plus if the get injured ect what does he care, hje'll go get another one to replace him.
Ya you make perfect sense.
Now wheres your proof. I posted mineView Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
and who was incharge of those protest
caviate......I dont know much about the truth of this site or story but the links in the story are accurate
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21841View Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
Sancho, you made your point with the image in your signature about 6 posts ago. Would you mind removing it now that the point has been made?I'm nobody, but I would appreciate it anyway.Thanks,Rebeccah
no problem but i will save and put it back on if/when these idoits do the same thing meaning walk inthe streets throw bottles at cars ectView Image
Picture taken at a recent pro-immigration protest,
here ya go
Now what did they do with my table
Thanks. :-)Rebeccah
more news from Texas
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/blog-detail.php?id=13814
Now what did they do with my table
Alberta, Canada?Cold Lake by chance?
About 200 miles south of Cold Lake (Three Hills). I was there for one year of college in '83-'84. It was a nice little town. I attended a small Christian school. They were crazy about hockey there too.
That "aggressive policing" might be what you yourself might be yelling for, given this set of circumstances.
I cannot tell from your profile whether you are a contractor or not, but let's say you are, and your specialty is the hanging and taping of drywall.
You have worked hard to build up your business, and you are up to running three hanging crews and four crews of tapers. Life is good.
But you are starting to lose jobs to some of your longer term customers who have switched to somebody new in the territory. And that somebody is employing undocumented workers from somewhere . . . Ukraine, Poland, Mexico, doesn't matter.
Who do you want to go after, the undocumented workers, or the employer?
"Like I said before, you want enforcement of immigration laws, then presure to have employers in markets where illegals flourish policed more aggressively. Any other talk is just nothing more than a biting at the heels of the problem."They you have not been follow the news.What does the House bill call for?
<<Wrong, I lived in New Mexico, Gallup for one year and Grants for one year.>>I thought you said "cities." Those are wide spots in the road. <G><<When you speak of 'them them them' and talk of stealing, robbing, poverty and everything else negative, who can hear anything else but the racism?>>I never said anything of the sort.<<The unemployment of low income, lower educated whites and blacks has more to do with larger social issues of class and culture than it has to do with illegals or legal immigrants.>>I don't doubt that a bit. I'd be interested to hear what you think follows from that observation.<<Like I said before, you want enforcement of immigration laws, then presure to have employers in markets where illegals flourish policed more aggressively. Any other talk is just nothing more than a biting at the heels of the problem.>>I'm not so sure I'd go along with that. I would not dream of hiring an illegal imigrant. The only thing I find more objectionable than the unfair competition that results from such practices would be an increase in government interference with small business.What if we denied all social services to illegal immigrants?The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
<<Wrong, I lived in New Mexico, Gallup for one year and Grants for one year.>>I thought you said "cities." Those are wide spots in the road. <G>Well, I don't think I said cities, i think someone else said that. 'Cept for Phoenix and my homeland of St. Louis, which last I knew are cities. But Grants and Gallup, being that they were small towns was I think even better for an experience of being around non-whites and as I didn't live in a priviledges situation; far from it, I lived and went to school right with the poorest; next to the reservation (navajo) and close to route 66 and downtown. The experience of being a white kid in a non-white place, where you didn't speak the language and they didn't particularly like you or feel they needed to was eye opening to say the least. I think every white person should get a taste of that for about a year or two.<<When you speak of 'them them them' and talk of stealing, robbing, poverty and everything else negative, who can hear anything else but the racism?>>I never said anything of the sort. No, I was referring to someone else who made the post that something was stolen from them in a neighborhood frequented by brown people, illegals? I don't know, but they put that up as support for the assertion that illegals or mexicans are bad people to be wary of.
I think people deserve the right to be judged on an individual basis, just like we would like people to judge us. Scumbags come in all skin tones. Might I also add that people who come into a neighborhood wearing their righteous pre-judgement all over their faces and their atttitudes are not gonna be received with all smiles and love.<<The unemployment of low income, lower educated whites and blacks has more to do with larger social issues of class and culture than it has to do with illegals or legal immigrants.>>I don't doubt that a bit. I'd be interested to hear what you think follows from that observation. I would like to elaborate more, but its a complicated issue and I think one issue where ALL people in this country are resistant to delve into. And I'm really damn tired today, its nearly 9pm and I just got home. I am having to do a frame-up on my own (with my partner and another guy we just hired) as the subcontractor decided he'd put us off for another two weeks and that just won't fly. Must have been all my wild crazy talk, maybe he's reading these posts? Humm....Which is another thing, we hired a guy today, the first one out of I don't know how many starters who actually shows up ontime and puts in a good day's work. Send the documented people my way.I'll touch on the class issue tomorrow.<<Like I said before, you want enforcement of immigration laws, then presure to have employers in markets where illegals flourish policed more aggressively. Any other talk is just nothing more than a biting at the heels of the problem.>>I'm not so sure I'd go along with that. I would not dream of hiring an illegal imigrant. The only thing I find more objectionable than the unfair competition that results from such practices would be an increase in government interference with small business.WHen I speak of that I speak of larger companies who have maybe 10 or more regular, fulltime employees and who prefer to use illegals because their shaky status allows them to exploit them. It also drives down wages for the rest of us and increases indirect costs for the rest of us. I don't blame the workers for wanting to support themselves, I blame those who could damn well afford to hire legal immigrants or natives, but they won't.What if we denied all social services to illegal immigrants?I'd really be in support of that if those who draw them here are forced to carry their needs, or penalized if they lure people here and then leave them out in the cold for everyone else to deal with after they've finished using them, or they lose their usefulness because of injury or illness. As for denying education and life threatening treatment, i think that's a bad road to go down, especially making the children of illegals suffer. Denying them education will create an even greater underclass driven down deeper and isolated further. Denying black folks decent education in the early part of this century up to even Brown vs. board of education has served no one. Denying basic emergency services would further hinder this groups' ability to assimilate by putting them back, possibly permanently or causing them to be stuck between not being able to work and not being able to go back. And infectious diseases shoud be treated for the sake of the public health.But outside of that, there are some places that i think we as a civilized and just nation just should not go. People seem to have forgotten what this country was like and what the rest of the world looks like when a large number of people are left helpless in the face of severe disability. How many or injured beggers will we tolerate? Will we create a special forces, with constitutional exceptions who can round up people wholesale, misteat them and then deport them post haste? Fine, lets to that, but lets not boast that we're so generous and god loving and the rest while we do it.Where do we stop with enforcement? How much money do we want to spend 'fighting' this problem. Its almost as ridiculous as the hapless blackhole of the 'drug war' in south america.The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)Absolutely. i was an activist in the 90's, but I got tired. Now I just want to make a living like everyone else.
Thank you for such well-considered thoughts, clearly expressed, and based upon experience rather than the emotion or prejudice we see far too much of. I'm grateful that you stuck with this conversation this far.I'll tell you the short version of where I stand on this; I have no tolerance whatsoever for racism or the sort of cultural elitism that weakens a democracy, or for that matter, any society. I believe fiercely in the value of diversity, not for its own sake, but on the principle that if we exclude anyone who wants to participate, we weaken our society and cheat ourselves out of an opportunity.I am a bit to the conservative side, mostly I am about conserving the values that made our nation strong, with a particular emphasis on the Constitution and the idea that this country is for everyone who wants to be a contributing part of it, not just whoever was here first or happens to be in power at the moment.I'm going to have to read your post again before I respond. I do hope you will have more to say.The best politics is right action. -Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
"but they put that up as support for the assertion that illegals or mexicans are bad people to be wary of."
Wrong once more than was just some info on something that just happened.
but it goes to show you how stupid they actually are.
broke into my car took a chance to go to jail apres a major #### whoppin
to steal some 4 buck part that they couldnt even steal...to stupid...
they broke it.....Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Sancho, What do you think of Bush wanting to give the illegal aliens amnesty (guest worker status, whatever). It seems Congress doesn't agree.
Im totally disgusted with his amnesty sham. Thats all it is amnesty.Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
From a recent Business Week article (a good sign):Piggybanks Full Of Pesos
Mexico's middle class is exploding, and that's good for U.S. business
Lucia Jimenez and BenjamÃn Macias have been married for just a month, but they're already buying their first home: a newly built two-bedroom bungalow in an attractive subdivision a half-hour's drive from Mexico City. Lucia, 23, a clothing store clerk, and BenjamÃn, 24, an office worker at an eyeglass retailer, have a combined income of nearly $650 a month, enough to qualify for a 30-year loan to buy their $25,200 house. "Before, it was much more difficult to buy your own home," says Lucia. "Things have gotten a lot better."
American conceptions of Mexico usually focus on the country's poverty and the endless flow of illegal immigrants to the U.S. But another Mexico is starting to emerge: a middle-class nation where millions have access to mortgages, solid jobs provide security, and a class of strivers saves to put its kids through college (page 52). This has the makings of a much more stable Mexico, and a much more lucrative market for U.S. companies. "We're very interested in the Mexican middle class," says Edmundo Vallejo, chief executive of GE Latin America, a big provider of consumer finance.
The ranks of that middle class, or those making between $7,200 and $50,000 a year, have swelled to record levels of around 10 million families. That's equal to nearly 40% of all Mexican households, vs. 30% just a few years ago. It helps that for almost a decade now, wages have been rising faster than inflation. In addition, women are having fewer children, and more of them are joining the workforce, giving households more money to spend and save.
Homeownership is the other key factor in Mexico's transformation, because it allows families to build equity, establish credit histories, and move up the economic ladder. The country is in the grips of a housing boom that is reminiscent of America's post-World War II expansion. A record 560,000 new mortgage-financed homes were built last year, almost double the number in 2000, and 750,000 more are expected for 2006.
This is a huge change from Mexico's recent history, when a series of economic crises caused the middle class to shrink. Over 25 years, steep currency devaluations periodically sent inflation and interest rates soaring, wiping out Mexicans' purchasing power and forcing many to default on their mortgages and other debt. Even after the peso stabilized, banks refused to make home loans, and consumers had to spend years amassing the cash to buy a home.
But annual inflation is down to 3% now, and interest rates have been falling steadily. Rates on 20-year fixed-rate mortgages are 9% a year. To Mexicans who just two years ago faced rates of 18%, that's a huge improvement. Banks big and small are tripping over one another to offer mortgages.
U.S. companies are in the thick of the action. "We are seeing brutal competition among the banks," says Juan Lerdo de Tejada, consumer assets director for Citigroup (C )-owned Banamex, Mexico's second-largest bank. That's great for consumers as rival banks lower their rates, but it's also giving Banamex plenty of opportunities. Banamex' mortgage portfolio is set to hit $2 billion by the end of 2006, from just $100 million three years ago.
BRACKET CLIMBERSÂ
It's not just mainstream banks that are cashing in on the lending boom. General Electric Co.'s (GE ) consumer finance unit has its eye not only on the 10 million families considered solidly middle class but also on those migrating from working-class status to a higher income bracket. To reach them, it has opened 194 storefront GE Money outlets around the country that offer cash loans from $100 to $1,100, credit cards, auto loans, insurance policies, and even home mortgages. GE also administers the credit-card program for Wal-Mart de México (WMMVY ), the nation's biggest retailer, and for most other department stores.
The current wealth of Mexicans surprises even a savvy player like GE. "We recently introduced mortgages for vacation homes at beach resorts and thought most of our customers would be Americans," says Farouk Salim, general director of GE Money in Mexico. "But a year ago we started seeing the Mexican middle class buying [these] second homes." Mexico is now among the top 10 countries in the world for GE's consumer finance business, and Salim says it should move into the top five within three years.
As rates continue to fall, Mexicans are buying more than homes. A record 1.13 million cars and small trucks were sold last year, up 33% from the year 2000, with Ford (F ), General Motors (GM ), and DaimlerChrysler (DCX ) accounting for half of all sales. Smaller-ticket items are flying off the shelves. "Sales of home appliances have tripled in the last 10 years," notes Ernesto Cervera
Basswood
That's the second post of yours that I've read that had some very good info in it.
But one thing that you seam to miss is that an illegal immigrant is still an illegal immigrant.
I don't advocate that we send all the illegals back, not going to work and its definitely not going to happen. Check out the movie, A day without a Mexican.
Yes the economy is doing well in some arenas because of the illegals, not so well in others. All you have to do is check out some of Sancho's links and you'll see that its not all that rosy everywhere.
I guess I can talk like an expert because I live in Texas, hell girlbuilder can do it because she's a women! but I don't claim to have the answers, hell I don't even know all the questions.
Something does need to happen though, no matter how many facts you post regarding the thriving economy made possible by the illegals.
Doug
"That's the second post of yours that I've read that had some very good info in it."I've made 800+ posts...and two "had some very good info" ; > )I won't disagree...illegals (at least for now) are, well...illegal. Some in our government want to grant amnesty and some propose making it a felony...(as in don't deport, just lock 'em up). That is brilliant, try to lock up 12 million people and 5% of our workforce.On the other hand, I didn't mean to suggest that there are no problems with illegal immigration (the discussion just seemed a bit one-sided...I derive a perverse pleasure being the devil's advocate for the underdog in the discussion and in society.I will restate that, last I heard, about 50 million people in Mexico were living on less than $3/day. If I were subjected to that kind of poverty, I would risk being illegal to feed my family--no question. Like I also posted, the poverty seems to be abating, thankfully.
Edited 3/28/2006 10:22 pm ET by basswood
"I will restate that, last I heard, about 50 million people in Mexico were living on less than $3/day. "
Hmmn, somethings funny. . .
The other day, I googled "per capita income mexico" and whatever site I looked at said the population was 106M and the median income was $9,600US
SamT
It is difficult to get all the numbers flying around out there to fit together nicely. In Mexico you only have to earn $7200/ year for a whole family to be considered "middle class." IIRC about 40 Million Mexicans are condidered to be middle class by that definition. Upper Class housholds make over $50,000/yr.The 50 million or so in the lowest class probably average $3600/ year divide by 365 and you get $10/day the divide by a family of 4 and you have less than $3/day.Your google figure for median per capita is probably accurate, but my numbers aren't off by much.That googled median also includes the third wealthiest man on earth Carlos Slim Helu whose wealth increased by over 5 billion dollars last year.
I guess everybody complains about the illegal because they honestly want to work and make money. This principal is making the government handout recipcane look bad. A group that inherit conservative making a liberal look bad. Hell yeas, they be crying some story now.. BOB thinks I,m an idiot
Edited 3/29/2006 12:53 pm by brownbagg
Yeah, he's good for $230 of that per capita figure, all by himself.
I know, not really, cuz it's not all income, but, wow!SamT
View ImageSamT
"... hell girlbuilder can do it because she's a women."I'm a woman, only one. And how does that fact make anything different? i don't follow you there.
"i don't follow you there."
You're trying to following the wrong person, anyway. I didn't say that.
SamT
Edited 3/29/2006 9:05 pm by SamT
I've made 800+ posts...and two "had some very good info" ; > )
OK, let me preface that with TWO posts on this thread! :)
BTW, some of us are still shooting for just one!
There's know question that if a lot of the people that post on this site were in the same situation as the illegals that are coming over were in that they would be doing the same thing, hell, myself included.
I have some very good friends down here that are illegal, I don't want to see them sent anywhere, one I'm helping to get legal, but I think we both can agree that it is getting to be a serious problem that does need addressing.
My wife runs a large retail store down here and 1/2 of all the money that her store takes in is from Mexican nationals. Her store is in a group of over 150 other stores, so assuming that those stores are taking in similar money from the nationals they must have disposable income just as we do.
Not trying to suggest that the whole country is doing well based on that little demographic but 20 years ago I'd bet that you wouldn't have seen numbers that even touched the ones that I mentioned.
Doug
Population of Mexico: 106M
Illegal Mexican immigrants in US: 4.8M
4.5% of all Mexican citizens are unapprehended criminals living and working in our country.
Legal Migrants: 8M
Ratio of illegal Mexicans to all legal visitors: 69%
Percent of US population growth due to all migrants and their US born children: 75%SamT
This is not particularly pointed to girlbuilder, but it triggers something that might be worth discussing. I think you make a good point as each case is subjective and not everything is as black and white as some would have you believe. Men aren't aways one way and neither are women. The whining and accusations usually come from an agenda that sits in the background, running the person's life, and skewing the vision of the person on every perspective. They have a point to prove and they are damned sure that no matter what... it is going to be proven. I am dealing with one such individual as this at the moment in fact. If I walked outside and said "Gee, it's a cloudy cruddy day out", she would retort ..."That's because you have a pen!s!!"
Then there are the guys whom I have almost come to blows with over racial issues or who have very dim views of women. Yes, they most definately are there. But each one person is an individual and the same holds true with any givin situation.
I too am tired of kneejerk persons who see the world as black and white and who are ready with the accusations and pointing fingers. It's probably the biggest problem in the world today in fact if you think about it. That and greed, and they feed off of one another. This goes across the boards, men are as bad as women as bad as ultra liberal as bad as ultra cons.
My wife has a great philoosophy when she has given up on a person and refuses to argue anymore, she just says, "What must it be like to be them.?"
I like to believe that there's a special place in heaven or hell for everyone.
I agree with you that all people come in all shapes and styles. I just can't stand the idea that folks think I come from somewhere that I don't. As for those of us who are white folks who don't think racism is ok, we need to speak up and stop allowing the vocal minority speak for us. As for women, probably one of the biggest stereotypes I have to deal with is the 'unfeminine, butch' stereotype. I saw a site that supports women entering the trades that offered 'girl gear' tool bags. They were hot pink and might I add, cheaply built. I wouldn't be caught dead wearing one of those. I don't think its too hard for anyone beyond two years old to know that I am a female, due to certain physical attributes. Wearing a pink tool bag only marginalizes me in my mind, seeming to say, "I'm still a girl see?" By reaction, it supports hardlined sexist attitudes. Those who disagree feel free to chime in, but that's my view.Now though, as I get older, I just don't care what others think anyway, I am so wrapped up in what I am doing that I don't have time to care every single minute. Although like I said, I would be liar to say I am not haunted by certain stereotypes or wonderings about men's 'true' thoughts about my working in the trades, but I can't allow it to run my life.
I think that both sexes are haunted by social stereotypes whether they are liberated or not and these unseen and often mistunderstood things are usually ghosts from our past.
And I think you're right, the older I get, the less I care what people think as I start to shed my skin of the past and look for those golden slippers. It's the very essence of liberation.
aaaaaaaaaw Blow it out your A$$. I just felt like saying that. I get a little touchy when someone puts down my boys (mexican guys). they are like family to me! I am godfather to their kids. (you know us Italians with that). I guess we all can get bad names by the action of others.
-Lou
Lou, remember, alot of the other immigrants that make this country what it is at least came through Ellis Island or other legal ports of entry. I have had great guys from south of the border work for me too. Heck, they are all human beings equal to us no doubt. But 10,000 a day jumping a border illegally makes this particular exodus a little different.
We need to have a game plan for this.
Agreed, but what is it and when will someone (government) implement it.
I got a plan, but its going to pi$$-off about 15 million!
I got a sneaky suspision that you'll need some help...
I'm in....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm all ears.
LOL. If only!Out here, when they are caught, they recite the Bill of Rights.
Nothing will stop the 'exodus' from Mexico short of supporting real efforts to change the Mexican economy and since corporate America has made it a high priority to own most of the Americas from Mexico on down, (not counting the slave trade prior), I'd posit that not much will change.I can't stand this argument because it smacks of racism, pure and simple. Fact is that the building trades are being opened up to people who don't fit the white male paradigm and people are screaming foul. Competition is the name of the game in the free market system that so many love to brag about. Whether by southern spanish speakers new comers, or Uncle Jeb and his band of hillbilly brothers, there is always someone to outbid you and always someone waiting to hire the cheapest they can get.I have seen good work from all groups.As for this post sometime back that I just noticed:"Impersonate is a strong word. They will put suits on, walk around & ask if people are US citizens.
They brought the idea up to me, first time we did it, it was for a joke, & holy crap there was such a scramble of guys leaving the job I almost busted a nut laughing. They never say that they are officials of anything."Only a complete assbag with absolutely no empathy for other human beings would find such an act amusing. Also, it is impersonating and it is a crime. Impersonating a federal officer is not taken lightly.I hardly think that any of you people would willingly sit on your #### and starve or watch your family suffer. No, you'd do what was the most expedient thing as the breadwinner and go out and find the bread and go where the pickings are rich. Some work hard, some screw off, some are slow, some are fast, some are dumb, some are smart. Just like any other member of the human race.Also, the idea of 'sealing the borders' is just idiot talk meant to soothe the dumb beast of the electorate and nothing more. Drunk KKK members and 'patriots' clambor the border to 'police' it and to vent their ignorant and ill-directed class rage at the most vulnerable people on this continent all in the name of the ideals of freedom and justice I respect. Makes me want to puke.
UR dumb as a brick...
what if 50% of the people walked in walmart and left with baskets full of goods... then you being part of the other 50% walked in and were charged double... "they are just trying to feed their family" and if i stopped one that was leaving with an unpaid basket full and held them for the police... I'm that red neck ill informed republican you live to hate... must live a sour life wake'n up everyday mad and full of hate... because you are so well informed and have a higher understanding of the world and it's people... well let me just explain this... you are in fact dumb as a brick, and couldn't see the big picture if it was hand painted by one of historys great artist... want to talk about make'n someone puke...
hope you don't take this as a personal attack... as it is a true psychic reading don't hate the psychic reader...
p
denny crain
Puke all you want.
Just don't splash it on me.
SamT
Edited 3/24/2006 1:45 am by SamT
girlbuilder
You need to go back and read those last two paragraphs that you wrote.
True example of someone who is so ill informed that they NO NOT THAT THEY NO NOT!
And in the same vain as SamT, don't get any on ya.
Doug
Nothing will stop the exodus short of a fence and immigration policy that actually has some teeth.
You need to be careful viewing the US and "corporate America" as the government of the entire world. Cuts both ways -- you want us to go into Mexico and "change" the economy. You also wanted us to go into Iraq and make a few changes? Where you want us to go after Mexico? How 'bout we save some time and handle North Korea, Iran and Syria in one fell swoop? Something tells me you don't want us there making "changes."
What you might consider is that free trade with South America will do more for their economy than just about anything else. As the scope of trade grows into Mexico and south america there will be many growing pains on all sides. Production and jobs will shift to lower cost countries. Short of invading them and forcing them to raise wages and improve working conditions, it ain't gonna change overnight, but it will change. As things equalize over the course of around the next decade, all countries get a net benefit from the expanded trade. Near term, there will be tears enough to go around.
I'm also all for competition. I don't see illegal aliens as undercutting me. What I do have a problem with is anyone doing business that doesn't play by the rules. If all the contractors that hired anyone, illegal or not, payed all the payroll taxes and insurance, and dealt with the administrative overhead of having employees, the playing field would get a lot more level.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
First of all, I'm not sure why you are quoting other posts in replying to me, other than the 'exodus' comment, none of the other statements apply.
Secondly, if you knew anything about me, you would clearly understand that I am not a racist, so you should probably refrain from knee jerk reactions to people over the internet that you do not know, it only makes you look foolish, and whatever message you have gets lost in the vitriolic.
Thirdly, I suggested that the wave of illegal immigration is too high, not that Mexicans or any other immigrant group are inferior because they are not white. I would have the same feeling if they were Norwegians. Many communities cannot support, or do not want to support the influx. The obvious problems have been detailed already. If we do as you suggest, and accept all those who want a better way of life (read: American way of life - which may not be for everyone) then there are millions from other continents who would like to be here too. When does it stop. I'd be curious to see how you would feel if your livelyhood was threatened and your community was unindated with the numbers of illegal aliens that some of these other communities are experiencing.
Fact is that the building trades are being opened up to people who don't fit the white male paradigm and people are screaming foul.
What a load of Crap!
"I'm also all for competition. I don't see illegal aliens as undercutting me. What I do have a problem with is anyone doing business that doesn't play by the rules. If all the contractors that hired anyone, illegal or not, payed all the payroll taxes and insurance, and dealt with the administrative overhead of having employees, the playing field would get a lot more level."The only intelligent post on the subject here. I had made the error of posting 'to' someone here, but it wasn't exactly, it was a broad post to all those who continuously hash out old stereotypes to justify their illegal immigrant blaming.I don't believe America really needs to police any parts of the world, frankly, that's called imperialism. Look it up. And that is in large part what has caused the Americas to be in the #### they are in now. Read your history.Ponytail, dumb as bricks? Read history yourself.Apparently you all have strong personal feelings on this issue, but frankly you are blaming the wrong people. Go get mad at the politicians who refuse to put any real teeth in or any enforcement behind the laws that exist to punish those who hire illegals. I stand by what I said. I don't fault them for doing what any human would do anywhere. I do fault a system that aids and abetts one class of person in exploiting wholesale, another, which is exactly what employers who hire and encourage illegals to come here do. If no one was hiring them, do you think they'd be here? Of course not!But its far easier to get mad at those who are easy to pick out everyday than at those who really are at fault, but blend in better with the rest of us isn't it?White male paradigm. Yuppers. You better believe it. I won't back down from that statement, not on your life. When men stand around and bellyache about the 'illegals' when what they really mean is anyone that doesn't look like or talk like them, well then, now what am I supposed to think?And when women make up less than 1% of the persons in the building trades, what am I supposed to think?Get mad all you want, call me all the names you like. Doesn't change a thing.
When men stand around and bellyache about the 'illegals' when what they really mean is anyone that doesn't look like or talk like them, well then, now what am I supposed to think?
And when women make up less than 1% of the persons in the building trades, what am I supposed to think?
Since there is a legitimate concern about the economic influence of all illegal activity, I think it's appropriate to discuss the situation.
Your comment about women making up less that 1% of the persons in the building trades is laughable though. Have you considered that women have had the free choice to enter, or not to enter the building trades for the last two generations and I don't see a stampede of them looking for jobs and getting turned out.
My own daughter spent a week on a rough site and that was enough to last her for a lifetime.
Don't blame the lack of female participation on men. I think you are a female tradesperson and I don't hear you talking about a crew of ten women. Why don't you blame yourself for not having more women?
Your sexist comments sound just like the incessant racist comments that we hear from the black community. The blacks have complained about lack of jobs in the Detroit area for decades, and they haven't found their way out to the booming suburbs. Ironically, the Mexicans have managed to find their way 2000 miles to land the jobs in the burbs...but the women and blacks haven't.
Do you think white men like Mexicans better than blacks or women?
As soon as women quit blaming others for their lack of participation in the trades, they'll find that the doors for competent workers and good pay is open at all times.
blue
very well said... blue
I stand by "dumb as a brick" no one here blames hispanics for coming here, no one blames anyone anywhere for wanting something better or just wanting something and being WILLING to work for it... I'm im Memphis and we are 70% black it's a non issue... funny thing is... it's the blks scream'n about mexicans take'n their jobs... yeah right... the only big masonary contrator in town make'n money is a blk guy with all hispanic crews... go figure
p
"Ironically, the Mexicans have managed to find their way 2000 miles to land the jobs in the burbs...but the women and blacks haven't."
Blue ... that was a fantastic line!
I think we may even be on different sides of the fence on this issue and I still thing that's a great observation.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Whoa -- say it, Sister. I just joined this thread, and I think that (nearly) everything you have said is right on. You've noticed that BTers are extremely thin-skinned, especially when accused of racism or sexism. I had a similar experience when, a year or so ago, I called the Minutemen (border vigilantes) "racist morons." Everyone piled on me then as they are piling on you now. At that time my BT name was Javier (which is actually my given name, so I hear anti-immigrant slurs a bit differently than do some anglos).
Hang in there.
Javier:
Hope this isn't stirring the pot too much, but girlbuilder seems to be talking about an exodus from Mexico, that is illegal immigration.
I understand opposition to legal immigrant slurs. ;-)
But, what about illegal immigration?
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Maybe. But whether the immigration is legal or illegal depends on which laws are in effect at the time. It's generally better when people obey laws than when they don't. People should operate through the proper channels, and so forth. Who could disagree with that? My father was legal -- he had a green card that he renewed every year. However I don't think that the animosity toward the illegal immigrants is really based on the fact that they are illegal.
Here's a thought experiment -- if Congress were to pass a law tonight opening the borders and making all immigration legal, would that change the attitudes expressed on this forum toward Mexicans hanging around Home Depot, looking for work?
>>"Here's a thought experiment -- if Congress were to pass a law tonight opening the borders and making all immigration legal, would that change the attitudes expressed on this forum toward Mexicans hanging around Home Depot, looking for work?
Fair question. I am sure it would change a lot of attitudes about Congress. ;-)
There's a good article in this week's Time Magazine. Points out the costs of illegal immigration as well as the benefits. Holding down wages is listed and viewed as a benefit 'cause that checks inflation. On the other side of that coin . . . .
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
However I don't think that the animosity toward the illegal immigrants is really based on the fact that they are illegal.
Then tell us what You think the animosity is based on?
Here's a thought experiment -- if Congress were to pass a law tonight opening the borders and making all immigration legal, would that change the attitudes expressed on this forum toward Mexicans hanging around Home Depot, looking for work?
No! So whats the point?
Can't speak for others, but Iam so tired of the amount of non english speaking people in my area, law breakers that wave the flag of another Country in my Country! And around here they, the "illegals" get special treatment.
Please lets call a spade a spade,"illegal immigrants",An immigrant is someone who comes to the U.S. to make a life,to become a legal resident alien and eventually a naturalized citzen.
The point, to answer your question, is that the animosity toward illegal immigrants is not really based on the fact that they are illegal. Your answer to my "thought experiment" implies that even if they were legal, people wouldn't like immigrants hanging around HD, being a burden on the schools, depressing wages, speaking Spanish, etc. etc. So, any reaonable conversation or debate about the immigration problem should focus of those issues and not on the legal/illegal point. (Before you smack me down on this, let me repeat that I agree it is much better to be legal, learning English, paying taxes and on being the road to citizenship, than to be illegal, living furtively, etc.)
Also, this is an obvious point, but it is not the immigrants who are asking for lower wages, it is the employers who are paying the lower wages that are the cause of wage depression.
One major flaw with your logic.If they where legal, under current requirements. they would need sponsers and to show that they are not a burden on society. Thus they would not be hanging out at HD trying to get day jobs or many of the other problems that you mention.
Also, this is an obvious point, but it is not the immigrants who are asking for lower wages, it is the employers who are paying the lower wages that are the cause of wage depression
the employers are taking advantage of these people by paying them wages charging the customers reg prices to increase their profit margine.
That is not only hurting the american workers and their standard of living but it hurting other other illegals as well. The ones that have been here for a while are being under bid by the new ones. So it is a never ending cycle
Good example is any Mc Donald here. They have 40 plus year old mexican workers there trying to ake a living raisng a family with a job that was made for hs and college students.
They are paying them poverty wages.
Yet you go to say a In and Out Burger where you pay a lttile more for a burger and its clean has all Americans working there great service, they even count your change back to you..and the americans are all College or HS students.
So what I see are law makers doing is virtually wiping out the middle class and having just a rich/poor system like they do in mexico
View ImageView Image
Lou
Wow, what a comeback, hope you didnt spend to much time searching for the right words to say!
Don't get the idea that I don't like the Mexican people here, not the case at all. I'm spending my hard earned, TAXED dollars to help a guy(Mexican) get legal. I just want the playing field leveled a bit.
Anybody that makes blanket statements like you did shows a little bit of their back side in doing so.
Doug
what are the stats on lazy drunk american drivers that kill people on the road every day?
-LMC
We seem to be letting our emotions run away here. It is ruining our ability to follow your train of thought or read your spelling. Slow down...........breath deep...........shoot yourself..............now isn't that better? DanT
is that fatally or just wing himself a little????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
minefields"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
particle beam wall...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"We need these people..."
We thougt we needed slavery at one time too.
It's the age old human tendancy to find someone else to do the grunt work and exploite their efforts for our own personal gain. (Liberal Speak) So let us continue to turn a blind eye to illegal immgration. (License speak)
...Or..., it's pure economics. Their lack of education, imparred social statis, and language barier coupled with our American know how and material assets we can mutually benifit. (Conservative speak) But how dare our nation give them free medical benifits when we have to pay for ours! (Legalism speak)
Let us not as a nation continue to turn a blind eye to Illegal Immigration. (Law) ...And...Let us not as a nation forget these unspoken american business partners when their bodies fail and need medical attention. (Grace)
God save us all!
Chief of all sinners.
"My guys dont crap in sump pumps. they are respectfull to my customers. they carry their groceries in when they see a mother struggling, they wash there hands when they go to the bathroom, They dont fart nearly as much as I do, They keep there houses clean. You know what? I'm tired of this discussion."When I read the above I realized I need to start hiring guys "who break wind" less often than I do.In the winter time when the house is closed up it gets pretty bad.summertime is okay when I can open the doors and windows..
^^^^^^
I say we really turn the clock back and we get rid of all those drunken irish and greaseball italians who were coming into this country, taking our jobs, and corrupting our children.And them germans. Honestly ! What makes them think they know the best way to do everything ? Those chinks... they are good for putting down the rails, but they better not want to stay here after they have finished the railroads !! And those jews !! Greedy suckers. Controlling all the money. Grinding out their propaganda in hollywierd. Between all the above, it's no wonder regular white US citizens can't get a decent wage anymore...~~~~~~~Tongue very firmly planted in cheek.Excuse me, I have to go take a shower...
I've got you outnumbered, one to one. Come out and meet your doom. ~Yosemite Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>"We need these people..."We thougt we needed slavery at one time too. I guess what I should have said we need "some" people and these guys seem to be filling the bill currently. I just need people who are willing to show up, work, learn, and hopefully advance themselves. I'll give them the opportunity if they'll accept it. I couldn't care less about skin color or country of origion. There are theives, junkies, drunks, rapists, etc. of every skin color out there. I don't want any of them around me. I pay my help extremely well, but in return I expect good work and good behavior. I recently ran my nephew off for criminal activity. At one time he was good help, but got greedy and started looking for shortcuts.I don't know the answer, but the way things are now needs to be changed. Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
>>"What about a contractor working out of their classification. Do you think it is alright for a roofer, painter, electrician to bid on a job out of their classification?"
Every one of those is OK except the electrician. They are so damn protective of their own trade, they better stay the heck out of my back yard. You forgot to mention plumbers/mechanical. Talk about sky is falling if someone gets too near a pipe or duct. ;-)
PS: This is all tounge in cheek. No flames, please. I'm putting on my asbestos underwear anyway. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
"Have any of you had this experience?"
not since I started to focus on a high end market.
then again ... I never really paid much attention to it.
not that we have tons of mexicans running around here ... the real problem is white trash/crack heads/hill billys ... lowballers in general.
But I always thot ... what do I care is someone wan't to work for half the money it takes to get me outta bed in the morning?
and if they're doing as good or a better job ... more power to them!
I was undercharging myself and undercutting other established guys when I was getting started ... just cause it took less cash to get me outta bed ...
as long as I built nice stuff ... screw everyone else crying about it.
I've been around lotsa crews of "lazy americans" ...
and I've been around a coupla crews of hardworking mexicans ...
I know which one's I prefer!
nothing wrong in my eyes of a man working hard and still finding a way to send some money back across the border.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Its like an Epidemic around here, even the Roach Coach drivers are from South of the Border... To cheap to even get plates from the Country they work in. Little to no enforcement around here & the double standard. The law does'nt want to mess with them because it eats up to much of their time. Plus its Ez-er to squeeze John Q US citizen.
Edited 3/12/2006 10:38 pm by G80104
Lots of Mexican workers here in Seattle as well. Funny thing, been down to Jalisco state in Mexico for the second this February and there sure are lots of USA license plates down there, not to mention Canadians. It seems to me that the border is slowly disolving.....lots of us are snapping up houses down there!
My mother was just in Mexico and said the same thing about San Miguel... lots of semi-wealthy norteamericanos living down there, stretching their retirement dollar, having lunch together.
Ya, and it's not just there in San Miguel Allende...........there's a great article in the NY Times right now on Merida (check the most emailed articles) and how Nortes are flipping haciendas there!
I think in less than a century we're going to be one big country Canada/USA/Mex. You cannot stop the kind of economic migration that is going on, be it South to North or North to South! (IMHO)
Maybe there's work in Mexico for skilled carps doing work for the influx of Americans with money.... ha ha
San Miguel is defiitely beautiful -- but did you or anyone hear the piece on NPR this morning about rapes in San Miguel de Allende? Apparently concentrating on American expatriate women. Very depressing.
That license plate said "Chihuahua"- is that where the trailer is registered, or what they're serving off the grill? ;)
I tasted the offerings from a lot of those wagons when I worked in Vegas, and I think it's the latter.
Bob
I won't eat off of any of them, Ptomaine Taxies, I see them all the time buying the meat for their food @ the local Safeway. They buy the meat thats been marked down & is on its last sale day (or the store must toss it out). Then they peddle it in their food for the next week-10 days.
One Question I have to everyone! I've been in business 20 years now and back then you could hire young kids out of high school to work for you. Including myself. Young guys today are just stone cold lazy. So who are we supposed to hire? I have been working with INS to make my 2 guys legal, there is soo much red tape bullsh%t. These guys are like family to us (family and I). In the end it will cost about 30grand To let them stay.And they will!!!
These guys dont fly into buildings, They just come here and work. Just like our relatives did back in the day.
I wish the mexicans all left and went back to mexico. Show The US how F$%cked we would be.
You guys strike a nerve when you mess with mexicans
Lou,
One question, how many illegals is to many?
I am not buying into the lazy Young of the USA! I got 2 sons 15 & 17 who will work circles anound any of the Illegals I deal with on a daily basis. The sons will also clean up after them selfs (including their lunch trash) they don't pi$$ in the tubs, or crap in the sump pits,if they open a door or window on the job site they close it when the leave, they have car insurance that they pay for. I don't have to ask them 5 time a day to put their hardhats on, yet to catch them load up tools & materials of others at the end of the day.
So you want to talk about striking a nerve?
Don't even get me started on what has happen to the Schools & Hospitals around here.
"I am not buying into the lazy Young of the USA! I got 2 sons 15 & 17"
Outa how many millions of teenagers?
I don't think 2 is a statistically viable sample.
SamT
"I am not buying into the lazy Young of the USA! I got 2 sons 15 & 17"
Outa how many millions of teenagers?
I don't think 2 is a statistically viable sample.
Never said it was, I am tired of the BS line that nobody can fine anyone to do the work but Illegals. If people would pay a fair price you should have no problem finding employees.
We start our laborers out @ $12 per hr, and have no problem filling the job with young hard working american teens.
G80...,
I've got a friend here in Columbia that started his own framing biz because he got tired of making $12.50 + 0.0 as an acting carpenter crew foreman. The "real" foreman got $17.
And, yeah, I pay my Carpenter Crewleader $17 + Bene's
SamT
I cannot debate the fact that you have raised your boys right. I am on the east coast. I cannot tell you how bad I have had it trying to hire skilled men. My mexican guys have papers. They do the work of 6 men. Young kids in this area want 13 an hour with no skills what so ever. My guys dont crap in sump pumps. they are respectfull to my customers. they carry their groceries in when they see a mother struggling, they wash there hands when they go to the bathroom, They dont fart nearly as much as I do, They keep there houses clean. You know what? I'm tired of this discussion.
Lou,
Sounds like you got some Good men there, hope it all works out for you!
Now what do we do with the other 8-12 million , 3500 entering the country each & every day 1277500 a year?
I guess the government needs to come up with a game plan and a good one, When georgie was tryin to get reelected he was telling the latinos he had plan. (never Did). I was cranky last night too much work not enough play. Do your kids know how much you praise them? Have a good day be safe G8. I'll be less cranky after this job is complete.
-Lou
I kind of a agree with both you and Lou. When I built my house last year I could not find an American kid to work with me. I was offering up to $20/hr. Nobody was interested or they wanted even more money. I would have jumped on the chance to build a house at that age. I ended up hiring latinos, and for the most part had few complaints. They new to push a broom when idle. OTOH there are just too many out here, and the problem has gotten out of hand as far as schools, housing and crime is concerned. And yes we have the same thing, where you can't even communicate with a clerk at a store unless you speak Spanish. Why this is not being addressed by the Federal government is a mystery.
Edited 3/16/2006 2:48 pm ET by TGNY
"I am not buying into the lazy Young of the USA!"
I do!
I got more nephews than U got sons ... so I win.
he does have a point.
I too am following yer technique of trying to home-grown my one ... but a coupla mexicans would help fill out the crew for another 10 years or so ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I am not buying into the lazy Young of the USA!"
I do!
I got more nephews than U got sons ... so I win.
Must have something to do with the Environment?
we must be closer to Mexico..
why is that the illeagle Mexicans here are crying so loud about being under bided by other illeagles from else where and are moving on.
what you have referred to in workers pushed out the better ones and now being pushed out by workers from Romania, Ukraine, Costa Rica, and Africa to name a few....
wait till these illeagles land in the NE... then lets see what they have to say...
How about the roofer up yur way that was paying 180$ total to 11 workers for the whole day or the $27.50 paid to 10 workers total at the CC plant for the day. That wasn't the wages to each worker for the day but for the whole crew ...
An illeagle is a sick bird isn't it????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Both political parties have done nothing except a few Congressman and a few Senators are coming out only acknowledging we have a problem and have had a problem that is growing out of control. Amnesty is will only balkinize America and drive a diverse culture shock of separatism within, if amnesty is allowed. Mexico at will has been able to move into our neighborhoods and take up jobs that we Americans have to have licenses for as well as Insurance and Bonds as well as pay into the tax system. If this continues, it will drive our country to bankruptcy as they have done in their own country and California.
The argument that illegals are taking jobs that U.S. workers won't take is bogus. Do you believe that Americans do not want the constuction jobs, do you believe that Americans do not want the baggage handlers job at LAX, do you believe that Americans do not want the jobs that illegals were holding in the Atomic Power plant in Florida? There are many Americans that want the truck drivers jobs that are held by illegals. The slaveowners of the antebellum south used the same argument in order to maintain slavery. They said they could not harvest their cotton crop without slaves. That has been proven false. The political parties of the U.S. want more illegal immigration, but for different reasons. Democrats want the votes, and Republicans want the cheap labor. If the immigration laws had been enforced the probability is that a Denver police officer would still be alive today. He was killed by an illegal that had been arrested twice before. Should have been deported. Most capital offenders know that if they can reach Mexico that it is almost impossible to be extradited back here to face a capital crime. It is time to put the military on the border. I am not against immigration, only illegal immigration.
you left out greed...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
honest to god i hired my little cousin one summer 17yo good kid .. but dang.... didn't know how to operate a broom... once he was shown how he had no idea how to get the piles up or that you even had to.... then he paniced... he'd never sweat before so he thought he had sprung a leak...
i don't care where ur from... if i'm pay'n ya by the hour... if you are finished or stumped... your hands needs to be wrapped around a broom... funny thing is... i've never had to tell a mexican this simple fact... everything is always swept clean...
and get this... they waste nothing... every cutoff of every board (over 8") they mark it with how long it is as they cut... then it's stacked where they can see the writing... you can't find a scrap or block in my dumpster over 8"... when they lay bricks 95% of all squeeze out goes right back on the mortar board... almost zero waste and very little cleanup... when you come from a place with so little.... a little means alot... nice to see the respect for it....
p
If they are unlicensed, you could turn them into the state--at least our state requires licenses for a lot of work and there are heavy fines for those who do such work without being licensed.
When somebody gets hurt or killed on the job, the family of that person can sue the GC. Remind them that they could loose everything if they are stupid enough to hire the illegals or workers without insurance. I'm not sure of the fine for hiring undocumented workers, but the INS doesn't take kindly to it. If the GC's still hire the illegals, then that's their problem.
Quite a number of the sub's that I've dealt with hire the legal mexicans, get insurance and do a great job and make a lot of money. In my experience, the mexicans worked harder and (with some supervision, when I insisted they don't cut corners; for example when installing $50,000 worth of windows and doors) did a better job than the US born workers. They worked 10 hours a day or more on a regular basis. So if you can leverage their enthusiasm, teach them quality [and safe] work practices, give them some elbow room, and keep them busy, you can be competitive.
It did take a while to get used to the rough appearance of the mexicans though: "Hey hombre, donde esta me dos por quatro? Huh?" Kind of reminded me of that movie "Romancing the Stone" When the lady writer went into the Columbian drug lord's town and was surrounded by "bad guys" only to find out that they were nice (once they realized who she was["Juanita" or something]).
BTW, I'm half Ecuadorean, a lot of people think I'm Mexican, so I know what it's like to be on the other side of the racial coin.
her name was 'Joan Wilder'."I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Hey, I've got one better than that. We have a multi-million dollar family in our area and the sons have gotten into construction, as a hobby I guess. There focus seems only to keep there employees working.. They under bid me an a 2400 square foot cape cod by over $50,000. By the way, I was within $5,000 of another contractor. We were the only three to bid. Guess, if you can, who got the job. HO asked me how could there be that much difference in our bids. I told him that I, for one, couldn't afford to build his house for nothing.
When in Texas (the movement is growing across the country), employ the old adage "If you can't beat em, join em".
If the frame labor market is $5.75 per SF, and you frame for $5.75, but a Mexican crew can frame for $3.25, employ them for $3.25, charge $4.75, supervise and reap the benefits. You'll be $1.00 under market. Keep it secret and befriend the Mexicans. Selah.
NOTE: Selah is a hebrew word for: pause and think of that.
Since the the "Big Bang" there have been moon-lighters, boot-leggers, and many other individuals in the trades that may or not have any business doing them. You get a lot of satisfaction when one of the bargain hunters calls to have the mess straightened out. Luck.
Just curious, have you ever gone shopping for materials at a big box? Found a brand name item that was manufactured in some 6th world country where they pay a buck an hour for highly skilled workers, and cost only half as much as the same brand named product made in the USA but workers paid just a bit more.
Not to mention the tolerances and materials used are no match. It's all sold to break soon because that's how the keep going. They need to work fast because for every dollar they take in they send a dime off shore to never return and the circle can only last so long before you have no more dollars to give them.
Now sit back for a moment and think about how that fella down the street who has been laid off because the foundry closed 2 years ago and needs a new roof. Who is he going to hire?
It's not the cheap/bootleg labors fault alone. We have a growing class of middle age+ home owners who flat can't afford you because they don't have a job.
Every time you walk into your favorite big box or the Mart you are casting one more vote to close another plant down over here because you'd rater pay a buck for something that will last a day instead of 3 for something that will last years.
....Every time you walk into your favorite big box or the Mart you are casting one more vote to close another plant down over here because you'd rater pay a buck for something that will last a day instead of 3 for something that will last years.
yeah that sounds good but it's as full of crap as an xmas turkey... look at the US auto Industry which might be gone in the 10 years... the greed use to be on the "big corporate types" but the union worker that can be trained in 3 weeks and you own for life that only has to show up 4 out of 5 days has cooked his own goose... he isn't and never was worth what he was paid, now 25% of the cost of every american POS car is going to pay union demands.... you can always buy junk US made or junk made overseas... what you can't buy is a well made american car... most designs have roots at least 20 years old... built with labor hungry equipment thats 40 years old... 2x as many man hours in a US auto as in a KIA... and with a KIA you get 10yrs or 100,000 miles... right now I'm drive'n a LEXUS LX450 with 205,000 miles and I'd drive it anywhere everything still works just like it did when new... not a spot of rust, nothing fall'n off, doesn't use oil between changes... look under the hood anything you might need to get to you can... WHEN the US should have been investing better quality and productivity the workforce wasn't there... be glad you are in the service industry because the US will continue to loose when it comes to manufacturing...
p
I am gc specializing in small repairs and remodels in silicon valley. Their are literally 30 to 40 day laborers in front of the "depots" each day. I have had several prospective clients say they have used them and/or asked if I do. I have a small "museum" of parts I have kept form previous less than qualified tradespeople. I show these to the prospect and explain the situation around each. My favorite is an electrical switch we found in some outside landscaping lights (110v). The gardner and crew had been hired to install the lighting. Unfortunatly they failed to install weather cover seal onthe metal box. Every day the sprinklers came on they were watering the box and eventualy the conductors. I had been hired to track down the problem because...get this...the pool light had stopped working!!! We found the switch as we were walking around diagraming the lights. WE HEARD IT ARCING FROM 5 FEET AWAY!!! So how much did the homeowner save hired unskilled labor. Nothing and they put themselves in grave danger.
Fel free to share my story with your next prospect who wants to save a buck on unskilled, unlicensed labor.
More on the way........
http://9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=1e239044-0abe-421a-00fe-d3e087ff2ca3&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf
Does Colorado have a seatbelt law? I guess Denver authorities are now hip to the new "Corre al Mac Grande!!!!" escape tatic. <G>
Rob
Corre al Mac Grande
Explainame poor flavor?SamT
My intent was "Run to the Big Mac" but I could've butchered it.
they can't drive either...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Well, apart from the illegal alien part of the deal, they really aren't much different from those filthy Irish a century and a half ago, or dagos who followed on the heels of the Irish. Or mine and likely your ancestors.
"...your poor, your huddled masses, etc."
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
It really is amazing what you learn about people in this type of discussion. All that helpful, lets get along, goody two shoes stuff goes right out the window quick. On both sides. DanT
Ain't that the truth.
Its amazing to me that some think they know how others really stand on this issue solely based on a few posts.
One point and certainly not the only one that I'm referring to is the attempt at using the race card.
Doug
Race card, rich card, poor card, government card, neighborhood card, jail card, theft card, school card, kids card, enviroment card, border card, sex card, color card, male card, female card, religion card, and card card. All the same thing.
No end to the argument so why start? No one is dealing in facts just opinions. Facts that are offered all come from someones opinion. So lets beat that dead horse till it is gone lol. DanT
"All that helpful, lets get along, goody two shoes stuff goes right out the window quick. On both sides."
That's why I try not to be nice ...
right from the start!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
There's alot of consecutive Buck Construction advertising, though Sancho's font looks slightly different.
we're nation wide.
the font is a little different in Cali ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'm not sure if I offended? My ethnic slurs were intended only to illustrate my point.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
No no, no offense at all. Just an observation on my part that you post made me realize. Sorry if I was confusing. I often am..........confused. DanT
Good - Sometimes I'm not as clear as can be, either.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I see illegal contractors around here all the time, one City I used to work in, the building inspector spends most of his time shutting down jobs left and right, due to illegal work. I see people being paid $10 per hour to do roofing, no safety gear, no transporation (they come in a bus). Ironically, today's local paper had an article on the front page saying "illegals are good for the economy". The article went on to say that "low level work" such as construction/painting/roofing is better suited to illegals, as they "work harder for low wages". I can just see the responses the editor will get to that article.
And our State Senator, Mr. Kennedy is in favor of allowing all 11 million illegals in MA "stay" with no repurcussions. Meanwhile, an article in the Boston Globe a few months ago stated there are 60,000+ illegal contractors in MA, causing the state to lose 10 - 15 million in taxes, workmans compensation and other fees. Go figure...
J
"our State Senator, Mr. Kennedy is in favor of allowing all 11 million illegals in MA "stay" with no repurcussions."There are only 6.5 million people in MA. That is an estimate of illegals in the entire counry.
Davy Crockett's last words at the Alamo:
"Holy smoke, where did all those roofers come from?"
The joke I heard was, "We pouring concrete today"