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A while back, a few of the more active threads were dealing with unlicensed competitors, fly-by nite’s and guys working out of the back of a truck. Alot was said about how they steal work, and devalue the whole process. They can charge less because they don’t pay for insurance or pay taxes. The question I came up with while talking about this with a buddy. What’s the difference if they under bid you and get the job from a Price Customer, or I underbid you because I have less overhead, but still pay ins. and taxes? If I go up against a bigger guy for a smaller job, I’m not paying a bunch of guys WC and Benefits, I can do the job for less. I’m also building a business, so I’ll take a good job at a lower price than normal if it looks like I’ll get some more work out of it, or the pics will look nice in the portfolio. As I said in other posts, I don’t get pissed if I lose a sale on price, I feel I either didn’t sell my self well enough, or that the customer is simply price shopping, and I’ve decided it’s worth more than they did. I tell them ya get what ya pay for, and I’ll be available if any repairs are needed. Jeff
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no difference.... i used to worry about it.. and let i t get under my skin...
after a while i found out that thsi si the way we're gonna do things.. and it costs a certain amount of moneyto do it that way...
it got a little easier to show this to prospective customers.. now if we get the job.. we get it for our price.. and everyone is happier.. including hte customer..
if we don't get it... it isn't neccessarily price..
i've lost my share of work to companies that were way above me..
someone else had something that the customer wanted.. some perceived value that they bought into..
price ain't it.. perceived value is what we're all looking for... try to deliver that..
b but hey, whadda i no..?
come on jeff, recess is over.. how 'bout some more sales talk ?
*> "someone else had something that the customer wanted.. some perceived value that they bought into.."b Maybe a written warranty?? Just kidding around but possible maybe??
*lemme think......hmmm..NO .. that wasn't it
*Well Jeff, I think in many cases the bigger company can put a guy on the job cheaper than you or I can. Think about it. They may have enough folks on the payroll that they can send what amounts to a specialist for each part of the job - demo, foundation crew, a couple framers, someone back at the office lining up all the subs (and taking the time to price shop) then they bring in the trim crew and each one of those specialists is working for less than you and me, and they are better at their particular area, 'cause it's what they do every day. So what do we have that they might not? Control. The fact that you are the one who sat at the customer's table, and didn't let her break your belt loops, and are on site day after day, you control the job better. And if you play it right, they gain confidance that they are getting that special attention that can lead to a great experience for the customer, and fair profits for you.I used to tell young atheletes "...what you have to do, and it ain't easy, is honestly evaluate your strengths and weaknesses. Capitalize on your strengths, and try to minimize exposing your weaknesses." I think the same holds true for our businesses. We have to evaluate what we do and do not do a good job of (it ain't easy to be honest with the mirror sometimes) and do whatever combination will give the best product/service to the customer. THEN we can build a good business.
*whadda ya think mark.. isn't this just starting to gall ya a little..?Reigning Petefest Bocce Champion..sounds kinda like hype... don't it ?
*it's called positive reinforcement...see...ya keep telling yaself...and pretty soon ya believe it!!I demand a rematch..this time everyone plays with a patch over their eye...never did get to tell that one at Petefest did I JB?
*Hey, we went easy on you guys 'cause there were woemen and children around. We are expectin' a better challenge from the Cape Burpin' contingent next year, or so they promise.
*Tell it now, uncle Mark! Tell it now!
*What the heck is bocce ball anyway?
*well... i guess you'll have to show up next year to find out...unless the reigning chump.... er.. champ... wants to enlighten you ...
*Rubbing my balls in anticipation. (I can see it now...International Reigning Petefest Bocce Campion...)
*Jeff; for the record, I have no problem with being underbid by an legitimate competitor; that's business. My bone is simply with anyone who slaps a title on themselves (like carpenter or cabinetmaker), and goes into a line of work they are unqualified to do, and consistently underbids me by sheer ignorance. He may not be around in a while, but a similar guy will take his place, and the inevitable result is they drive prices down for everyone. This is not good for the consumer, in the long run, IMO.
*If its like croquet, you guys are in trouble....
*adrian,What makes a "legitimate" competitor? If I'm new in the business but have lower overhead and can provide a product of equal quality for less, is that not the American way?Other than state licensing, how do you become a qualified cabinet maker, carpenter, electrician etc.? I've seen some real cheesy work done by legit tradesman! I've found it's not their license that defines them, it's their work.Don't take this as an attack, but rather, I'm asking for clarification.
*Chris, that was the point of my post. I'm legal, but I learned most of my skills from my Dad, who did this as moonlight work. To me, it's a real gray area. I'm always seeing "real" contractors rip people off, while my Dad's original client base is still calling. May come down to a zen/karma thing! Live and learn...and practice and learn....and watch and learn....and deal straight. After that I'm clueless! Jeff
*Chris,If you are really providing an equal product for less money then more power to you.The possibility still remains that your "low overhead" may prevent you from truly offering an equal product.If low overhead and lower prices mean you don't carry adequate insurance and your labor force is not covered by workers comp then you are exposing your customers to some VERY expensive liabilities.Some of your higher priced ,high overhead competitors have adequately protected their customers on these issues,and though your workmanship may be the same is your product really equal?If your lower price prevents you from generating adequate financial reserves to see you through the inevitable rocky patch,you won't be in business long.A business gone bust has a hard time honoring warranties and standing behind its work.I am speaking in generalities here Chris,not specifically about you.I imagine a lot of businesses start out with the same "lower price/equal quality" motto.Many fail.The more experienced operators learn to recapture ALL their costs and eventually become higher overhead/higher priced.Just something to think about,Stephen
*Chris; there are lots of grey areas, and there are lots of ways to wind up as a "professional", by my definition. And BTW, if you can really deliver equivalent work (taking into account some of the things Stephen mentions below, especially being prepared for warranty work), for a lower price, then great...but what I see is different shops, operating in the same area, and doing similar work, end up with very similar rates. I've run a shop in eastern and in central Canada, and bid against shops from coast to coast on jobs, and I'm always struck by how competitive the bids are. When someone is a lot lower, red flags go up. It's different I'm sure in building.Anyway, what makes a professional. Basically, it would be a combination of training and experience that qualifies one to undertake a given job. In Canada, we still have the apprenticeship system and variations on it; you can either do an in-school requirement (one to two years), and then make up the rest of your hours on the job (8-10,000 hours for carpentry and cabinetmaking, all of it supposed to be done under a licensed journeyman), and then apply to write the exam (they do review your experience, and take it pretty seriously). Or you can do the traditional apprentice thing (four years, school requirement every year, then write the exam). Easier to do in carpentry than in cabinetmaking. Pass the exam, (lots don't), and you can call yourself a journeyman...but this is ENTRY LEVEL, and you better not crow too loud, or someone will knock you down. You can qualify provincially, or now interprovincially through a Red Seal program. In Canada, where this system applies, if you call yourself a carpenter or a cabinetmaker, I assume you have been through this process (like myself, Patrick, Ross Elliot, Sgian Dubh, and Mark Cadioli to name a few on this board from Canada or other Commonwealth nations), and it pisses me off when people just pick up a hammer and decide they are a carp or a cabinetmaker, because the term means something specific here. And the system isn't as rigid as it sounds; I was a foreman before I had my papers, and i know several others who were too. And if someone has a lot of experience in the trade, but didn't formally go through the process above, they can get a couple of certified people to vouch for them, present their experience, and apply to write the exam. In no way am I saying there is no room for people who learned it all on the job, and I am especially not criticising you Americans for not going through a similar qualifying experience if it isn't available to you. Lots of ways to get equivalent experience.But as a rule of thumb, four or five years solid experience before you call yourself a carp or a cabinetmaker; anything less, and I don't think you appreciate the trade. And most journeymen will tell you, even after a lot more years, you're still on the road, and the road never ends.So that's trade qualifications. If you are going to be a pro on the business side, i think you need the technical skills, plus a good deal of estimating and logistical experience, plus the business skills required to find a job, estimate, do it, complete it, on time and on budget. the European model is two years business training past the journeyman level (to become a Master), before you are permitted to enter a business relationship with a customer, and I think that's pretty accurate, even if the training is informal (watching how the boss does it, over and over and over again). So, four or five years to get to the journeyman level, another couple of years experience watching how the business gets doen, and you may be prepared to do it. The community college here, by the way, requires eight years before you apply for a job to teach just the technical stuff.So when I hear the occassional person on this board calling themselves a competent journeyman and contractor, with two years experience or something, I get pretty ticked, cause I think it's an insult to how it's done by most of the rest of the people here.Anyway, that's just my longwinded opinion. Feel free to disregard.
*Just wanted to add, under the 'business' part of being a professional, a high ethical standard is important, and a strong committment to the interest of the client. In fact, the most common definition I've heard of a 'professional' (as in doctors, lawyers, architects, etc) is that they have clients, not customers. That's how I try and treat the people I work with.
*You need to read Harry Beckwith's "The Invisible Touch". The chapter entitled, The First Key: Price. It will change your ideas on the low price and bidding in general.
*Jeff, Maybe I don't understand the conversation but I say,let the low bid have it. It is a recipe for disaster trying to compete with low quality guys. I have a floor sander friend who even hands out the cards of his cheap competition. Quality, and character is what you need to concentrate on the work will come.
*Hey Peter. Great book eh? I think that entire book that can be applied to our industry than any other general business book I've read recently.
*You have made some interesting points Adrian.I think a lot of things are a matter of perspective and some things a matter of semantics.Your view of the client/customer designation is a good case in point.I have customers---and I am happy to do my best work for them.Refering to them as clients ,however,would make me feel more than a little pretentious.Maybe it's a trade thing cause I don't generally hear plumbers,electricians,concrete contractors,Roofers(in my case) or a lot of other trades calling their customers "clients".A long time ago when I was in high school and college I spent about 5 years working for the local public library.We were instructed to always refer to the people who used the library as "Patrons".Didn't matter if the "Patron" was a student doing serious research,a retired person looking for the latest Dick Francis novel,or a homeless person off the street looking for a dry place to sit for a few hours----they were still "Patrons" in library lingo.I think the customer designation would have fit better.clients or customers---as long as their checks don't bounce! Stephen
*Adrian,That's interesting how you become qualified in Canada. In my area, there were no vocational schools to attend for cabinetry. Just the basic trades - general carpentry, plumbing and electrical.And in my region, most carpenters aren't formerly schooled. (I agree not just any dummy can pick up a hammer and become a carpenter but it also isn't rocket science...in most cases.)I also understand your points regarding the inclusion of all applicable overhead such as insurances and such. My overhead has that all included as well, including health, life and retirement. I was interested in your perception of professionalism. Am I professional even though I haven't apprenticed for 8+ years or attended a school of cabinetry? I will only say that I act professionally and always strive to provide the highest quality product and services. Time will tell.Thanks for the dialogue.chris
*Stephen; I think you put your finger on it, we're working different areas. As a roofer, you are going to have a whole lot more 'customers' (this may be semantics again) than I am; realistically, how many roofs are you going to do for any one person? At a stretch, two, and maybe some repairs. But you are going to see a lot more new faces than I am. Same goes for most of the other trades you mention. But carpenters and cabinetmakers in my experience have different relationships; once you are their guy, you get a chance at anything going, which means an ongoing relationship. I have 'clients' I do things for every year, sometimes basically on an ongoing basis ("schedule this stuff in when you can, and then we'll talk about this room"). I hope that continues. I hope I have the same relationship with their kids when they get to that point.In the old days, the last service a cabinetmaker did for a good client was screw down the lid on the coffin before they started shoveling dirt on it; in my way I work towards the same type of relationship. The 'legitimate' professions have the same type of relationship; it's ongoing. In no way did I mean to imply that the one time, service type relationship is less important or worthy; but it is different. I hope I didn't offend you.
*Chris; I don't know you, except through this forum. I've never seen your work, so obviously, I can't judge you (as if my judgement was more than an opinion). What can I say? your posts sound like a guy who is serious about his trade, you contribute to the most obscure corner of a forum with a lot of people who are very serious about what they do, and I tend to go by someones word. I'm definitely not saying that the act of getting the trade certification I've described guarantees excellence (and I'm not putting myself or others with that certification as a gold standard; I'm competent, but still on the learning curve after a bunch of years, and I'll probably say the same inten years). I stand by my assertion that if you have less than four or five years in, noone has seen or done enough to call themselves a journeyman; that's just the human brain, it takes that long to process and apply the information.And I do believe it is important to set an objective standard as to what competent is in an occupation, and be specific. Canada and a lot of other countries attempt this, but it is a difficult thing to do. The US leaves it all up to the free market, and buyer beware. I'll venture that a pretty high proportion of guys calling themselves carpenters now are really at the helper or labourer level. As I recall you're seeing that in AZ. What exactly is wrong with raising the bar?FWIW, I assume, and always have, you are a professional.
*Adrian,I understand your point clearly now. It would be nice if they did have a licensing exam for cabinetry.Honestly, I'm not qualified to make fine furniture. I have a good working knowledge of the mechanics. In school, I was taught the old ways of wood joinery and craftsmanship and built a few pieces. But never tutored to build truly fine furniture. But I see that type of cabinetry as being starkly different from Kitchen cabinetry. I'm not saying that both don't deserve the same level of dedication and quality. But rather, they are distinctly different animals. Does that make sense? I feel that the average kithen cabinet, although well made, are vastly more simple than the work I invision you doing.Thanks for being fair towards me regarding my posts too. I sometimes have a hard time articulating my thoughts and tend to be very outspoken and blunt. However, via the this medium, it tends to come across aggressive. That's not my intention. I just don't have any other place to take part in this type of dialogue!chris
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A while back, a few of the more active threads were dealing with unlicensed competitors, fly-by nite's and guys working out of the back of a truck. Alot was said about how they steal work, and devalue the whole process. They can charge less because they don't pay for insurance or pay taxes. The question I came up with while talking about this with a buddy. What's the difference if they under bid you and get the job from a Price Customer, or I underbid you because I have less overhead, but still pay ins. and taxes? If I go up against a bigger guy for a smaller job, I'm not paying a bunch of guys WC and Benefits, I can do the job for less. I'm also building a business, so I'll take a good job at a lower price than normal if it looks like I'll get some more work out of it, or the pics will look nice in the portfolio. As I said in other posts, I don't get pissed if I lose a sale on price, I feel I either didn't sell my self well enough, or that the customer is simply price shopping, and I've decided it's worth more than they did. I tell them ya get what ya pay for, and I'll be available if any repairs are needed. Jeff