I’m working on a small cafe space as part of a much larger project.
Another company is delivering the shell of the building, I’m only building out the interior kitchen/dining area.
The only change the restaurant owner has made so far is in the position of one interior door. This wasn’t an issue with the building permits dept., but raised a red flag with the project manager who is overseeing the entire scope of construction. She is maintaining that the current door position disallows the required clearance for a front entry as per ADAAG fig 25
http://www.access-board.gov/Adaag/html/figures/fig25.html
I can’t seem to paste a photo into this thread on my Mac, so if anyone’s willing to take the time to look at the enclosed floorplan, I’ve noted it as such:
Red circle is the door in question.
Blue arrow would indicate latch side approach, red arrow indicates hinge side approach, brown arrow indicates front side approach.
What I’m not fully understanding is when you need to maintain all clearances, and/or maintain only one clearance. It makes sense to me that a door in an alcove would only require front side approach; a door in a hallway situated perpendicular to the length of the hallway would potentially require only a hinge or latch side approach. She is saying
Having only done residential remodeling so far I have not had to deal with the ADA requirements for this kind of situation, and it’s definitely a good thing for me to know no matter what so that it’s in my mind for other situations as well.
Does the floorplan as shown require front, hinge, and latch side approaches? Or does it only have to adhere to one of the directional requirements?
Thanks for any clarifications,
Paul
Edit: there’s some other ADA issues on these plans as well, but they have been resolved on a separate set of plans…this is just the original PDF file I had been given.
Edited 3/7/2009 2:10 pm ET by hipaul
Replies
is when you need to maintain all clearances
It's always more complicated, but, the way it is drawn would pass TAS.
You have to provide a single wall thickness for the approach latch side, and that has been done. The door "tucks in" where the wrap come around the columns, so that takes it out of the alignment of the secondary exit path. There's just not enough room to rotate the door 90º around the bath, so, it pretty much has to be where it is.
There are a number of competing requirements in that large small space. The water closet clearances and grab bars, then the lavatory access and spacing all determine the inside minimum dimensions. Which then "drive" the exterior ones. It's a dance, and sometimes it's more drunken lurch than competitive ballroom.
Yes, drunken lurch. That seems to be the way for sure when getting plans reviewed in general..
Even when I think I know exactly what's going on, I throw it all away as soon as I step in the permit office since some plans reviewers seem to be really big on some things, others on different things, and nobody ever seems to be looking at exactly the same issues.
On the flip side, there's hardly any waiting in line down at the permit office these days...Paul
I have built quite a few restaurants. I believe you are OK as per ADA requirements, as long as you have 18" to the strike side of the door, and a total of 5'behind you as you enter the bathroom.
What I question is the restroom opening straight into the dinning area, this is unusual. In Washington, the Department of Health participates in the plan review. Is this the case in Oregon? If so, I'd say you are A OK.
Edited 3/7/2009 4:34 pm ET by McMark
Mark,The health dept. does review and stamp the plans before we can even go to the permit office. It definitely is unusual to have the bathroom open into the dining room. Nobody likes it, but the building is barely 1100 sq. ft. total, so there is literally no way to move/remove any of the kitchen equipment in order to change the door configuration around. (the original plans had the bathroom door opening on the side, but that was when there was no kitchen layout involved)The whole process is actually fairly complicated because it's a city Parks and Rec project, and they're delivering the building minus the interior TI. But there's so many levels to go through to get answers because it's such an important project for the city so everyone is involved and has to ok any changes. Not that that's a bad thing, it just makes it difficult to get anything done in a normal amount of time.Then again, I mostly do residential remodeling so my typical change order is, "I want to move your door to the other side, what do you think?", and the homeowner says, "Yup." and presto!Paul
All my experience has been commercial. I believe you have to have both push and pull side clearances. Inside the bathroom is OK. You have 12" to the side, and appear to have your 5' circle.
On the pull side, you have (?) 5' behind you, and 18" from the wall to the edge of the door? Figure (a) is the applicable drawing in your attachment.
Edited 3/7/2009 5:18 pm ET by McMark
I don't have a pdf version of the layout that has dimensions on it, but yes, the interior has the correct push dimensions as well as the 5' circle. The outside has the 5' clear space behind but there's only 12" between the latch side of the door and the pilaster. That was their issue. At this point it looks like I could change the swing on the door so that it's a left hand out instead of a right hand out and that would negate that 18" issue there.I also have a message in to the equipment supplier to see if he can find a smaller option for a mop sink since we could move that interior mop sink wall back just a few inches and be able to have the bathroom door open inward (right hand in-swing) while still maintaining 60" from that wall to the door.Paul
The outside has the 5' clear space behind but there's only 12" between the latch side of the door and the pilaster. That was their issue. At this point it looks like I could change the swing on the door so that it's a left hand out instead of a right hand out and that would negate that 18" issue there.
I don't have my ADA book with me. The depth of that pliaster becomes crucial, and may not even be dealt with clearly. Imagine that the depth was only 1". Then it would be a non-issue. But it is deeper than that. At what depth does it become a defacto hall-way? My books are not clear on this.
You could reswing the door, then 18" pull side will be met, and you would still have 12" clearance on the push-side
You could reswing the door, then 18" pull side will be met, and you would still have 12" clearance on the push-side
I'm wrong. If you did change the door to a LH outswing, you would have to move the door to the left, hard against the pilaster. This would give you your 12" pushside clearance. But you would lose your toilet grab bars. No good
supplier to see if he can find a smaller option for a mop sink since we could move that interior mop sink wall back just a few inches and be able to have the bathroom door open inward
You may run into the clearance to left of the w/c on the inside, and the 60" circle clearances needed.
You see, that was my first thought, to get the door inward--like using a floor sink, but the scale of the thing suggests there's not enough room as a bet.
I then looked at spinning the whole room 90--that would mess the rest of the alignments up, so no go. Door on the side, ditto.
At least the present arrangement only "shows" the service/mop sink, then the lav on the wall with the open door.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If I can get that mop sink moved back just a couple of inches then I've got all the clearances inside the bathroom if I want to try to swing the door inward instead of out.
As it is now there's about 58 1/2" between the door and the mop sink, so those couple inches make or break it. And I just have the 5' circle inside the bathroom as is, so we're ok there.
I've thought about different scenarios with changing the room around as well, but I have a feeling just changing the swing of the door is going to be a headache because it has to be reviewed by so many people before they can say yes.
Fortunately this is just a regular pre-hung wooden door, because every single other door in the building is frameless glass, between 8' to 10' tall. It's going to be a beautiful building once it's done.Paul
What happened Monday morning?
Still waiting on the results (thus being on the computer at 1pm in the afternoon)
Ended up drawing in the door as RH inswing off of the side wall. This necessitated moving the mop sink back just a smidge, but that gives us our 5' between door and wall and 18"+ from the latch side on the pull side of the door (inside), plus the 5' circle on the inside of the bathroom (overlapping the sink, but that's been ok'd by the permit office according to the OSSC 2007 ADA clearances), and the clearances on the push side of the door.Now it's off to get an architect's stamp of approval because the people overseeing the whole project don't trust the permit office to catch all the ADA stuff. So now I am waiting and figuring out all the other myriad quirks that are arising.The upside to the whole thing is that I've already learned a whole lot about ADA clearances and where to find all the info for the future. So, like every project, I've taken some valuable new information out of this one. Now if only that information would pay for the time that I've been sitting around waiting for the other parties to do their part!I'll let you know what happens when the drawings come back.
My first thought on opening the door inward is the direct visual of a person posing like Rodan's 'The Thinker' in full view of some of the diners.
Yes.... there's no pretty way to do this without changing where the door opens up and that's not possible since the restaurant owner can't move any equipment (no place to put it) and the rest of the building is steel and glass and can't be modified.And while I trust those door locks, I can without a doubt guarantee that if I end up using that bathroom while the building is in use I will make sure not to wear my spider man undies or anything else incriminating.That would be a great joke to play though if I could find a mannequin to stage in there at some appropriate moment.
Hi
Done some similar work in Canada an I think are codes are pretty much the same.
ADA washrooms are space sucking pigs and a lot of people don't realise what the requierments are till after the fact. Move the mop sink and swing the door in.Couple points ? why is the mop sink in there? Just a perception is the ADA washroom patron equal to that of a janitorial clean up?
Having that washroom stuck right there just seems wrong, It may pass all the codes but if one of these code folks ever ends up in a wheelchair, they may be rehtinking the whole process!!
When I was a junior draftsman for a big engineering firm in the mid 70's, I was given a wall out line of our new office, a list of the rooms, reception area et al and Blair
(may he rest in peace) said show us what we can do. They were just starting steel studs and dropped ceilings. Well he liked my first draft but the one thing he said he didn't have to change was the layout of the bathrooms. " glad to see when the door is open and no one can see you standing at a urinal or women's feet sticking out from under the toilet enclosure." He said some engineers just can't fiqure that out!I took that as a great compliment. That man taught me so much, unfortunatley I had to move to take care of my dad and Mom, and leave the firm.
After working as a prosthetic orthotic tech. Custom shoe maker and nurse and now construction you get a bit of appreciation for this stuff. I'm going back to nursing the construction is fun but body is getting old.