We are renovating a historic home (circa 1901) with all plaster walls. We fully expected to encounter no plumb or level surfaces before hand. However, the walls are much more wavy than we expected and the homeowner has chosen a large profile crown (6 1/2″) with a 2″ freize to be added flush below. My partner and I have a difference of opinion on the best way to attach the crown. We have already beveled and screwed 2×4 backing nailers (FHB #152, pp 58-63). Now we are ready to put up the crown.
He suggests starting at one end and working across to address each hi/low point as we get there. I think we should attached each end and then see what points remain in the middle and attach as needed to create the straightest profile possible. What techniques have others used successfully in the past in this situation? It is a paint grade install, so we can get away with some caulk, however, we both cringe at the thought of using that as a crutch.
Thanks for you suggestions!
Replies
Andy,
I have always found it easier to start from one end and work my way across the room, "tweaking" the crown for the best fit. (especially easy when one side of the crown can pulled away from the wall). I have tried your suggestion before only to find it more difficult to tweak the molding. I'm not certain of the concern about using chaulking. I use it sparringly, yet do so as a matter of practice, because it really gives it a finished and sealed look. Its an extra step and does take time, but the result is so worth it.
Tark
No real concern about using caulk as a "finishing" technique. I agree that it can fine tune the end results and use it accordingly. I just don't want to rely on it to cover anything and everything that we don't "feel like" evening out. I asked a few local guys and that seemed to be their common response (i.e. "Uneven walls? Oh that's nothin' LOTS of caulk won't solve.") That may work for them, but I won't have my work associated with any short cut techniques. I believe in get it right the first time and then touch up only as absolutely needed in a "last resort" type of fashion. That's why we have quickly gotten a local rep for doing the more difficult historic stuff that most guys want nothing to do with.
Andy, there was an article in a recent FHB issue that dealt with this problem...not too far back.
I myself like to start at one end and work my way across. Just be sure to leave the last two to three feet free in order to sit the very end properly to accomodate the cope. Once its seated correctly, nail it off.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
first off.....snap a line for the bottom edge...as that's the line of sight ya want the straightest.
Second.....paint grade...so why the aversion to caulk?
Third......I'd nail it as tight to the wall as possible.....if the gaps are that big....as in..not slightly undulating.....you ain't gonna flex any crown in and out enough to make a noticable difference....
Forth......like I said...why the aversion to caulk. Best...."historical" fix would be to float the walls/ceiling with a skim coat of plaster...or second best.....joint compound.....but try finding the customer that wants to include that in the bid....
Forth and a half........way back when walls were plastered and real uneven....the trim was installed pre-plaster..and used as the screed straight edge.....
So...unless you can bury half the moulding in the existing wall.......you'll looking at caulk.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff,
You can see my reply to Tark above regarding my philosophy on caulk.
As for burying half of the crown in the wall, it's funny you should say that. I had heard about it being used as a screed before. That got me to thinking about the possibility of actually scribing the bottom edge of the crown to fit the wall directly thus giving it a "buried" look. Immensely time consuming I know, but seems like it could produce great results with enough patience. This particular contract is paying us by time to "get it right" as opposed to a final "job price." So we are less worried about the labor and more worried about the final look.
Have you (or anyone else reading this) ever dealt with scribing crown or other similar techniques? Am I possibly begging for frustration that I don't want or might it actually be worth the time and effort?
Your other suggestion about skimming the existing surface to even it out was immediately shot down because they don't want to "artificially cover the original plaster in any way." (Never mind the fact that it has 100 years of paint layered on to it, but that seems to have escaped their grasp somehow?!)
Andy, you ask about scribe fitting crown to the wall. On sharp transitions in wall surface I have scribed and cut to the line with the table saw to relieve the back surface that goes against the wall or ceiling. Fine tuned it with a plane and/or sander-grinder. Caulk (even a urethane or high flex butyl that can be painted) will give the same look and not crack like painters caulk. If it was stained, you'd most probably have no choice. However be warned that you need a bit of wood on that edge you want to relieve. Sounds like the crown you are using might have enough meat to be able to take some away. I have also cut away into a built up plaster / dw corner etc when look and conditions allowed. How does that extra piece you mention lay out with the crown?__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The bottom edge of the crown probably has a thickness of 1/4 - 3/8 of an inch so there is certianly some than can be removed (within reason).
The piece that fits below is a frieze (flat decorative section below a cornice) approx 2" tall and about 1/4" thick at the edge that meets the crown. So the crown will be installed on angle as usual and then this piece will "exetend" the crown down onto the wall by an additonal 2" It is sort of like adding a dentil detail to the bottom edge, but is more subtal and historically accurate for this particular project.
Edited 2/25/2003 10:21:11 AM ET by andy
So if you hog out the bottom edge of the crown, will it be necessary to do the same to the frieze? This sits below, not behind ........correct?
edit: Do I remember you already have a backer put up to nail to? If so, does that have enough slop built in to be able to relieve the back of the crown which will place it's back (what was taken off) into the wall? In other words, you have the ability to remove some of the back of crown w/o being screwed by the nailer already installed?
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 2/25/2003 10:19:18 AM ET by calvin
Correct, the frieze section sits below and NOT behind. Because it is thin and fairly flexible, this section should pretty much conform to the curves of the wall as we need it to, so trimming it shouldn't be needed even if we do something to the crown. So long as we can get the corwn to lay as flat as possible, we can probably make the frieze line up with whatever the crown ends up doing. But obviously, we want the crown to look its best before trying to layer something else up next to it (kind of like building a house on a good foundation first rather than relying on your framers to take care of any errors.)
To get an idea of what a frieze is you can check out this link. The freizes shown on this page are much more elaborate (and thus less flexible) than what we are doing, but you will get a general picture of what I'm refering to. Once you click the link, scroll down to the selection box, then select "Moreal Friezes" then select to view any of the models shown.
http://www.mouldings.com/cgi-bin/wr-selectinv2
As for the nailers, we left a good 1/4" or more gap between the face on the nailer and the back edge of the crown, We knew we'd have some flexing to do, so we made sure to leave generouse spacing in between for exactly that reason.
Edited 2/25/2003 10:40:38 AM ET by andy
Edited 2/25/2003 10:43:52 AM ET by andy
I learned trimwork years ago from a guy who, you could say, didn't have both oars in the water, if you get my drift. But he taught me hanging crown, and the single best thing I ever learned is to snap your lines on the ceiling, not on the wall. If you have to tweak and torture the crown do it to that line.
Why? Unless you're standing on a ladder to get your eye level up at crown height, the line you'll see from the floor as straight, or wavy, is where the crown hits the ceiling. If you set the crown to a straight line on the wall, and the wall and/or ceiling surfaces are uneven, you'll never get a good job out of it. Get it straight on the ceiling, and no one, except someone up on that ladder, will see that the line against the wall is uneven.
My carpentry instructor in trade school taught me a similar one about chair rail. His background was trim work, and he showed me an apartment building he trimmed alone. Hallway walls were all over the place. He had a big pile of drywall shims cut in pieces just short of the rail width. He shimmed as he went, and nailed that rail dead-__s straight, then caulked the gaps. Your eye read that straight rail, and the walls looked great.
In a normal installation, your advice probably makes sense. But ... this is that Murphy's Law exception. The one detail that I didn't mention before is that while the walls are a huge pain in the a@@, the ceiling is actually brand new. Due to pre-existing damage, we had to demo the existing plaster ceiling, reframe, and hang new drywall from scratch. So we know that the ceiling is dead on! Aligning it to that surface is the least of our concerns.
The other detail that I didn't mention is that the crown/frieze will be painted gloss white against a semi-gloss burgundy wall. So the glossy paints will want to show everything anyway. Then on top of that, the homeowner has handed us this highly contrasting color scheme, so we fear that any waviness or excessive caulk will be more visible than an average job might encounter.
Translatioin ... "If it ain't one thing, then it's another!"
BTW, Am I supposed to be having fun yet?!?!
Your situation reminds me of a particular client of mine who kept insisiting.....nevermind!
In a situation where we were working with some really bad plaster walls (that we also were NOT allowed to re-float), what we did with the frieze and crown was, we installed the frieze where we straightened it out a little giving us smaller gaps along the wall rather than forcing it to conform to the uneveness. We then installed the crown straight. The gaps to the frieze board were manageble enough that filling them with caulk was fine, and we filled the gaps to the wall with caulk as well.
Where we got a big help was, the painter convinced the homeowner to step down the glossiness of the wall (to an eggshell sheen). He then cut the frieze board at the edge of the molding as opposed to along the corner where it met the wall.
The combination of the technique, the paint, the way the painter cut it in, and the height of the ceiling (11'), the molding looks MUCH better than we first thought it would. In fact, you'd have to go up on a ladder to see that it's wavy against the wall at all.
Great suggestions. Unfortunatley, she has already first coated the walls with a "historically approved" color so we are probably S.O.L. when it comes to stepping down the sheen. HOWEVER ... we are responsible for painting the trim and your idea of bringing the wall color onto the bottom edge of the frieze might be very worth experimenting with. That would "colorize" any excess caulk or waviness and allow us to cut an edge that would "appear" to be straight as far as the color contrast is concerned to the untrained eye. While it is a bit of a short cut, that may be the best suggestion I've come across yet. Thanks again.
OK, let me get this straight, you're putting crown to a dead nuts flat ceiling and against wavy period not to be floated walls. There's either 1/4" or 3/8" flat on the bottom of the crown. Then, you're butting a 1/4" dentil freize against the bottom of the crown. Your not worried about the freize following the wall, but the crown bothers you. How did the crown and freize you took off look, and what do your clients expect to see for their money? If you get the crown straight and the freize is wavy, how is that not going to show? If the teeth on the dentil aren't cut all the way through, I'd run crown and freize as fair as possible on solid glued shimming, and then carefully durabond any gaps between walls and freize. It'll take acouple of light passes. If the dentil is cut thru, I'd think about adding a backing and padding out the crown the same. I dunno, I've never done that, although I have done it the other way. I'm with you on the heavy caulk, it'll probably split anyway, and it's tough to get a hard crisp look with it...but if I were doing it on a time basis, I'd have to give my clients the choice on where to spend their money...trim usually gets admired, but rarely scrutinized... EliphIno!
Q) OK, let me get this straight, you're putting crown to a dead nuts flat ceiling and against wavy period not to be floated walls. A) Afraid so. It's ugly I know, but it's what we have to work with, so when you're handed lemons.....
Q) There's either 1/4" or 3/8" flat on the bottom of the crown. A) I don't have the crown sitting in front of me, so I'm estmating the thickness of the bottom edge within 1/8 inch.
Q) Then, you're butting a 1/4" dentil freize against the bottom of the crown. A) 1/4" yes, but dentil no. It's a flat decorative design that is a solid piece. I mentioned dentil earlier just to give an idea of the build up sequence.
Q: Your not worried about the freize following the wall, but the crown bothers you. A) I simply mean that the frieze gives us more margin for error because of it's flexibility vs. the crown which will be fairly rigid given the size and pattern. So if I have to make up something along the way, I'd rather do it with the frieze if possible.
Q: How did the crown and freize you took off look, and what do your clients expect to see for their money? A) There was no crown or any other treatment before, so they have an "ideal" version in their mind. I have been doing everything in my power to explain the issues to them, but they keep saying that's why they are paying us on a time basis to "get it right."
Q: If you get the crown straight and the freize is wavy, how is that not going to show? A) See the above answer regarding where the "makeup" margin is most preferable.
Q: I'd run crown and freize as fair as possible on solid glued shimming, and then carefully durabond any gaps between walls and freize. A) Can you give me more specifics on what you mean when you say "solid glued shimming?" Do you mean an additonal backer of some sort other than what we've already put in place?
Q: I were doing it on a time basis, I'd have to give my clients the choice on where to spend their money...trim usually gets admired, but rarely scrutinized... A) A point very well made and one I've tried to impart to them. However ... they have this "ultimate goal" of making the "Historic Christmas Tour" this year so you can imagine the mind set that we are working with!! (i.e. one of more money than sense!)
Okay I have read all the posts to this point and have a good picture of what you are dealing with. Here is how I would handle this. I do sometimes scribe crown but I doubt that it will help much in this case, I would set the crown straight on the ceiling (no problem here as you've said), then nail it to the wall at the high spots. Then I'd shim the lowest areas to keep the bottom of the crown reasonably straight; allowing it to curve gently toward some of the low spots ... just not too noticeably. The shims should be flat rippings or double tapered shims so that they can extend slightly below the crown allowing the top of the frieze to rest on the shims also. Then I'd tip the bottom of the frieze slightly further into the low areas as I nailed it. By this time the gaps left at the bottom of the frieze should be noticeably smaller than what a pure straight line would have left me. Now I'd fill those gaps. I'd probably use "white lightning" (a caulking brand that I have found to be far superior to others) and tool it off flat on the bottom with a small plastic pallet knife. I'd then do one to three (even four if needed) additional coats of caulk till the shrinkage was all filled in nice and flat. The best compromises on these types of things is usually to divide up the adjustment into smaller discrepancies spread out over as many joints as possible, trying to keep the variations below the eyes alarm level (even below it's normal detection level if possible). It may also help to scribe the bottom of the frieze a bit where there may be any sharp ridges that make exceptionally high spots on the wall surface.
So basically a graduated fade from smooth (ceiling line) to as smooth as can be hoped for (wall line). Sounds like a good plan of attack. That, combined with the cut in paint trick from the earlier post should do a respectable job given the working circumstances.
As for the White Lightining caulk. A couple of questions for you:
1) Since I'm not familiar with that brand, I did a quick serach and found their web site at http://www.wlcaulk.com/ for those that are also interetsed or not familiar. Their info seems to be very impressive. They have many formulations from which to choose. Which is the one that you prefer? Based on their selection guide I would guess that the "Pro Duty" would be the one most suited for this project.
2) Assuming the "Pro Duty" is the one, it suggest a 4-6 hour dry time before painting. However, it does not mention a recoat time. If I need to do 3-4 coats as you suggest, do you have past experience with how soon that can be done (given normal indoor temperature, humidity, etc.)?
3) You also mention allowing for shrinkage (as with any caulk). With this particular brand, what has been your experience for the time frame needed for the shrinkage to stabilize? Hours or days?
Thanks again for your suggestions!
what shape is the wall plaster?
If in good shape..and they insist on "historically correct"....which BTW......would be a float job by a good plasterer.....
I'd suggest making a huge mess of it all. They want correct......burying the crown half in the wall is correct..so give it to them.
Mark the bottom of the build up on the walls......cut the plaster away......chip it all away up to the ceiling......measure out how far from the lath or studs...what ever is left back there......and pad out the crown to the appropriate thichness.
There....."correct"...the crown is now buried in the way...just like the days of yesteryear.
Simply caulk the tiny gap where the crown hits the plaster it's setting on.....done....paint away.
Wavy walls...straight crown.........old work wavy...new work straight.
Tell them...it cost money and takes time to get on the fancy old home parade.
I'd suggest a lot of duct tape and plastic.....a circular saw.....a couple new blades...and a dust mask. If the plaster's in good shape......should be very little chipping. Try not to catch the lath.
That first coat is gonna need repainted though!
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff,
Would you mind if I printed out your instructions and took it to them and said this is the way a "Historic Restoration Expert" suggest the job be completed??
Too damn funny man.
Scary thing is, I could propbably do this and get my time wage if they really beileved this was "the way" as crazy as they are. However, once the mess destroyed their walls I have my doubts that I'd get too many referrals.
It is funny to think about though...
It could be done.
I've cut out many new door openings in old plaster walls doing the same thing.
It'd only get their newly painted walls dirty....and then U have the holes to fill where you gotta screw tight the plaster at the top....near...but not too near..the cut edge.
And......like I said....you'd end up with a "historical correct" crown/plaster detail.
Sell it as....."Just think of the fun in telling your friends that your crown is set below the plaster...while their crown...simply sets on top of their plaster."
You could even build a little set of stairs where members of the touring party could pick at it with their fingernails.....and gasp in disbelief.....
"Why I do believe this crown was used as a plaster screed?!?"
Then..they'd have the fun in keeping their little secret!
So....which way U going?
Sounds like U got customers that want it done "historical"....but not right!
Jeff
btw...I'll run this past a buddy of mine that's state certified as a restoration carpenter.....he used to drive around the state of PA working on state owned historical properties...see if he likes my cut it in fix......but I'm betting he'll say float the low spots.
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Edited 2/26/2003 5:37:11 PM ET by Jeff J. Buck
you ain't right brother ...
... but I will be interested in hearing what your carpenter buddy has to say.
p.s. I just checked out your personal quote. Now knowing that you're a Monthy Python fan explains a LOT ......
Edited 2/26/2003 5:59:58 PM ET by andy
btw...I'll run this past a buddy of mine that's state certified as a restoration carpenter.....he used to drive around the state of PA working on state owned historical properties...see if he likes my cut it in fix......but I'm betting he'll say float the low spots.
Jeff,
Did you ever get a chance to run this past your buddy. The stuff's up now, but I'd still be interested in hearing his take on it. Assumming the re-floating option is out, what we he suggest?
Andy; As the 3006 caulk is the only one that is stocked locally here It is the only one that I am familiar with. It has better flexibility than any other paintable caulk that I have used. It also flows on easier, shrinks less, has better adhesion, and tools or washes, more easily than other brands. By the way, I have found that a tile grouting sponge is a big help when cleaning up oversqueeze. The drying times that you are asking about depend upon the depth of fill involved. Deep areas are the toughest and should be filled first. Usually, even the deeper fills will be pretty well shrunk back after 24 hours. It is best to check though, as there are lots of variables (temperature, humidity,depth of fill, porosity of substrate, etc.). If it is firm to the touch it's ready for recoating. With deep fills it is best to get each coat cured before recoating. To give you a rough guide, I would say that a 1/4' gap is a two coat job that should be filled in one day ready to paint the next. A 3/8" gap is a three coater requiring two days to fill and ready the third. Half inch gaps and up are pretty rare and require some real work to make a nice job of. Anything less than 1/4" should be able to be filled in the morning and painted in the afternoon (one or two coats).
Clay,
Thanks for the feedback. Like you, I found that the 3006 was the only one kept in stock localy at the Sherwin Williams store. And they were the only ones that I could find that had any of the White Lightining brand at all.
But ... what a difference a phone call can make!! I called the folks at White Lightining using the number from their web page to ask which of their multitude of formulations would be best for this particular application, etc., etc. I got two things oiut of that call.
The first was their recommendatin to use the "50 Year Tripolymer Acrylic Latex Sealant." That has a joint expansion allowance of up to 50%!! It also has a 50 warranty, is fully paintable, etc., etc. If you go to thier web site you can get all of the specs. They said that it was made specifically for vertical, deep fill, high movement jobs such as crown moulding.
The second thing to come from the call was the best of all. They felt so bad that I couldn't find what I needed locally, that they are sending me a sample CASE of that stuff for FREE. They "don't do that for everybody," but since I took the time to seek out their specific brand and call them and call their area distributors, blah, blah, blah they wanted to "help me out."
We start work on this monstrosity tomorrrow. I'll let you know next week how it goes.
WHOOAA Andy!! Is that a deal or what? They are a great outfit, I can tell from their caulking. Their 3006 is not significantly more expensive than other much poorer performing caulks either. I don't understand why they are having such trouble getting their product distributed. Maybe if a bunch of us remodelers bitch like hell to the big HD and Lowes they will carry it. I have seen it at Lowes but it isn't always available there, and I never have been able to get any of their other products. You are welcome for the help I love to help guys who want to learn ... too many don't. Now I will have to get on the stick and find a source for those more specialized formulations.
Now I will have to get on the stick and find a source for those more specialized formulations
Clay,
Did a little research and found out a few things.
1) The company that makes White Lightening is Diversified Brands in Cleveland, Ohio. They also happen to be a wholly owned division of Sherwin Williams Paint. This explains why A) all SW stores seems to readily stock some type of WL caulk and B) why none of the big boxes will stock the stuff. (After all, they aren't going to stock a competitors paint product in their paint depts.)
2) MSC Industrial Supply carries the entire line of WL products. Every formulation, and by the small tube (10 oz) the large tube (29 oz) and by the case. Best of all, they are a nationwide on-line industrial distributor that promises same day shipping. So you get "big box pricing" with the convenience of never having to make a special trip just for caulk! The direct link to their WL section is
http://www.mscdirect.com/IWCatSectionView.process?RestartFlow=t&Merchant_Id=1&p_section_Id=2001110&Section_Id=2001110&p_product_type_Id=1586&ShowProductList=t&p_att_type_id_0=28641&p_att_value_id_0=369397&p_search_flag_0=1&SelectedAtt.length=1&pbegin=0&pcount=15&NameVector%5B0%5D.Name=Brand+Name&NameVector%5B0%5D.Value=White+Lightning&NameVector.length=1&View.x.x=121&View.x.y=11
I am just starting to get into the sample case that they sent me and the stuff seems to work like a dream! Goes on super smooth, fills large gaps easily, no "sagging" problems on the vertical surfaces I'm dealing with (crown against uneven plaster) and cleans very easily. I particularly like the "vacuum packed" feature. I can run a super smooth bead along an entire twelve or thirteen foot wall and NEVER get a single "burp" Man that's such a welcomed departure from what I typically deal with (i.e. the standard GE "Alex" crap from HD). My partner and I have already agreed that we will never again be able to use anything less ... we're permanently spoiled.
I suspect that the true value of this stuff will show up in a few years when the 50% stretch / flex ability keeps those "open seams" from ever showing up and thus reduces those @#$ call backs. We always cope our joints anyway, but when you deal with old places like we do, we still seem to get 'em. (The mfg. promises me that those situations are specifically what this stuff was designed for.)
Many, many thanks for recommending this brand in the first place!! Man I love this forum...
Edited 3/6/2003 3:31:56 PM ET by andy
Well thanks for the supplier info Andy. I am glad that you love it as much as I do. It really makes a difference for me. A year or so back I was working a few jobs with a friend and sometimes he would have other brands on the jobsite ... I just couldn't bring myself to use them. He bought some special stuff for a joint between some cabinetry and a raked ceiling in an attic studio. It was horrible. The paint crackled on top of it. I am pleased that it's working so well for you and your partner. All of your customers will benefit too.
Here's a little "midway" follow up for those that give a rat's a@@
The crown and the frieze are both up. (Thank you God!)
- We backed 'em with beveled 2x4's as previously mentioned thus giving us the flexibility to hits the nails wherever we darn well needed to. We cut the bevel with enough of a gap (~1/4") to allow for in-and-out flex of the crown and the wall.
- We started the crown flush with the new ceiling and then got it as close as possible on the godforsaken walls. We did start from one end and work across as suggested by several folks and that seemed to produce good adjustability and final results.
- We shimmed the worst of the low spot gaps in the crown and allowed a slight edge of the shim to extend below the crown for the top edge of the frieze to rest upon as suggested. Here we did a little change however. Rather than put the thin edge in first and leave the thick edge exposed as you would usually insert a shim (thus making the frieze higher than the crown) we put the thick edge under the crown and allowed the shim to taper down for the frieze. The helped produce a gradual reduction back towards the wall.
- We hung the frieze tight against the crown using p-brads and adhesive and allowed it to fade back towards the wall where needed so that the slight backwards tilt was almost not even noticeable.
- We went back with the White Lightening caulk Clay suggested and filled as needed. The usual gaps were no big deal. Some of the bigger gaps STILL remaining even after shimming and fading needed a little more caulk than we are usually comfortable with, but this particular brand made surprisingly easy work of it.
- When the HO returned that evening they commented that, "I thought that you said the walls were going to be a big problem? Everything looks level and straight to us, so what was the issue?" Besides wanting to smack the snot out of them, we just smiled, said thank you, and continued on our merry way. Boy, if they only had any idea...
- Now that everything has had time to dry, cure, set-up, etc. etc., we are going back in this weekend to paint and touch up. I will be sure to shoot some digitals of the finished product and post them for those that actually care. (Which is probably no one, but I figure, hey, it's the least that I could do for all of the great advice!)
Thanks again to everyone.
Andy, how are you composing your message? The one b/4 this post about the caulk falls off my screen. I had to scroll back and forth even expanding the message box in hopes of seeing all of it. Sorry, but not all of us have a big screen monitor.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin,
I noticed the same thing after posting that message. I didn't do anything differently than any other message I have posted and I am using a laptop, so no big screen here either. My best guess is that the link I posted must have done something odd to the site's HTML formatting? I'm no computer guru, but that would be my guess??? I'll try to edit the link in that message and see if it makes any difference...
...Yep, went in and tried to edit the link and got the same results. In the future, I am may have to figure out a better way to post an extended search link to prevent this, For now, I can't figure out how to get it to cooperate. :-( Sorry.....
Edited 3/6/2003 3:38:16 PM ET by andy
Edited 3/6/2003 3:40:50 PM ET by andy
Well I'll be dipped in ####. Thank you two for the answer and explanation. Now one other question I've asked b/4 to no avail. When someone posts a picture that's say 350 kb (?). When I load it even in a new window, it appears to be painted. No detail. Just big pcs. of colored paper pasted in the form of the picture. What causes that?
thanks.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
This is just a guess, but ... Some pictures are encoded with very coarse resolution to start with so the browser can get something up on people's screen quickly. Then as more data comes in, the pictures is repainted multiple passes, in more and more detail each time. Have you tried just waiting to see if it gets better with time? Have you tried starting over when it's had plenty of time and hasn't gotten better? I've encountered sites where it took 3 or 4 or 5 tries to download a complete picture at busy times of day.
I have also encountered sites that post large pictures that aren't really the large format, high resolution, original pictures, but small, low resolution blown up digitally so each pixel is like an eigth of an inch square, which sounds kind of like what you're describing. If I had a screen the size of my wall and could stand back 20 feet, they'd probably be pretty dramatic, but they're useless as it is.
Well, I have waited and it appears as if a regular picture had been painted over with wide brush strokes. The quality clears to being crisp edges and it finishes loading. I have reloaded but the same thing shows up. These are large to begin with, you'd need a 26" screen (maybe bigger) to not have to scroll around to see the whole thing. The color is also more pastel. I don't know, wish you could see what I do.http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=26955.1
Man, if this works, I just learned something. Open eric's pic and let me know what you see.........if you have the time. __________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Say what?! Is this like using your cd-rom drive as a cup holder?! No ... just kidding.
Here's my guess. First let me say that I have a high speed machine (Dell's best laptop) connected to a direct T1 hook up. (Translation ... I can download any web page in seconds and never have an issue accessing graphics or other content) I mention this only becuase I should say that I have never experienced your specific issue, so my guess is exactly that.
Now ... when I need to access a posted graphic from the net, the best way is to put your cursor over the image and then "right click" your mouse to access the drop down menu optiions. Here you will see an option to "save image as" or "save target as." Click the appropriate option and then save the image/file in question to your hard drive (someplace where you will remember where you put it!).
When you are saving the image, you will see its designated file extnesion (i.e. .jpg, .tiff, .bmp, .gif, etc.) If it is a standard .jpg (as most web site images are for fastest loading), you should be able to open it easily with any standard image viewer. If your a trying to reopen it in Internet Explorer, it will frequently distort the image because it is looking for HTMl content by default, so I usually don't recommend that route (personal preference against most MS products - even though I do use windows ... ughh .. but I digress) If the image extension is something like .bmp or .mps you may not be able to view it without a specific type of image editor like Photoshop, PicturePainter, etc.
I think I'm beginning to ramble and get too technical ... anyway, the point is try to save the file to your hard drive first, then open it with an image viewer (almost every new computer comes with some version for free) and see if that works better for you. Frequently trying to reopen them somewhere elese without first saving them to the hard drive results in bad or no image quality. (or at least that's what I read in some book, during some class that I supposedly passed when I was paying to much for an education that I didn't need to learn how to swing a hammer...LOL)
Yeah man, you started to digress right there in the first paragraph. I have found things this compaq with xp can't recognize. I just take the senders word for it that it's the coolest thing I have ever not seen and be done with it. pps file is one of em.
Anyway, usually I just wait for some enterprising soul to downsize the pic. which I assumed was too big or something that i couldn't see it as a photograph.
But now I'm starting to digress...........
later.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
(*Just a side thought here, almost seems like this should be it's own thread doesn't it? Doesn't have much to do with uneven crown...) (Ah, but what the h*ll, I started the thread so I don't guess I can really complain ...)
Open eric's pic and let me know what you see.........if you have the time.
It opened as fast as I could click on it and immediately resized itself to fit my browser window with no scrolling required (Using IE 6.0.2 in WinXP Home) and with perfect clarity. Appears to be a very nicely finished Doll House on a bench in a work shop.
Yeah man, you started to digress right there in the first paragraph.
Opps, sorry about that. Sometimes my explanations tend to get a little ahead of themselves. I always like to have any and all information available, so I tend to do the same when giving info to someone else. (Now just imagine being married to me. My poor wife has to deal with it daily...)
Another thought that I just had. What ISP provider are you using? Many of the dail up software ISP folks (i.e. AOL, MSN, Earthlink, etc.) have a default graphic compressor setting built in that they conveniently "forget" to tell you about. They do this because it makes their service seem faster and it puts less of a load on their servers. However, it also goofs up many images and web pages without their paying customers ever knowing why. If you have one of these, perhaps you can go into the "preferences" area and chose to see graphics "as-is" or "uncompressed" etc., etc.
thanks andy, do have aol so maybe I go exploring...........
If you don't hear from me again (none to soon, he says) send the dogs....
Re. maybe it's own thread?........stick around, the way these things take off, lucky we're not talking about knitting or something. Some don't like the way a thread takes on a life of it's own, others like me don't mind too much. You can always zip through and hope it picks back up to the topic written on the heading.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Cal, just one more reason for Macs. I can see for miles, and with DSL, it's up in a blink;-)
Andy, make sure you make those pics bite-sized<G>
Glad to hear your sweat was appreciated! EliphIno!
This is a longshot, but are your display settings set for 256 colors? (rightclick on your desktop/click properties/chose settings, look at colors on bottom left of window)
Andy, you can create a hotlink in the source reply window. The html coding is like this>>>
<a href=www.andylink.com>Andy's link</a>
The www part is the website address, "Andy's link" is what will show in your message. Like so, (now written in source)>>>
Andy's link
Of course I couldn't get the site to open, but I have to agree that I like White Lightning. Very cool you got a free case, I think I will call some beer companies today.
The problem is the link to the MSC web site, not the composition tool. The link can't contain any spaces or newline characters, so the window is forced to be as wide as the link is. We all have to scroll back and forth to read it. Sometimes people include a link to the home page and then describe how to get to the page they really want us to see, instead of posting a really long link.
We did baseboard on a crooked wall and the painter got into the discussion of what to do. He had us shim it straight, calk it and then he painted the wall color in a straight line to our base. the calk was wall color and things looked incredibly straight.
Thanks Mikey. It does seem like using the paint to "create" the straight line is the way to go as a final step. Given the high contrast between the two colors and the height of the ceilings (ten feet) this may be the "saving grace" once we have done everything else possible to keep the wood a straight as can be expected.
We adhesive tapered shims in the low spots and cross nail the crown. Helps keep the crown from moving later and cracking the caulk joint. We do it pretty much like Clay suggested. We've done a fair amount of historical work, and most of the crown around here was fastened to plaster "grounds" (wooden screed boards) which were attached to the framing. Tha crown was put up after the plaster. You need to push your clients to get signed up for the Christmas Candlelight Tour! Run it straight, do the paint thing, you're gonna be a paid hero<G> EliphIno!
Andy
When we hang plaster crown we always find the high spot,(or bump in the wall) and use that point as 0 run a string 3/4" off the bump take a 3/4" block of wood teh find out how much you have to shim out. We shim out aprox every 16" and attach the crown to the shims. We then skim coat plaster along the wall to cover the gaps.
This is done on the cieling as well, find low spot which will give you 0 and work down from there if were not working off a benchmark.