I asked my supplier if I could get this (3/4 x 3 1/4 oak, machined and sanded like the prefinished but without the finish) and she said “yes…but why would you want to?”
so, I’m thinking : easy install…no sanding…more finish options…similar price…
maybe site finish would give a better seal ( maybe not with shrinkage), maybe it would sorta minimize the bevel…
anybody have some experience with this? it sounds good to me
Edited 3/9/2005 7:18 am ET by toledo
Replies
The only place I have seen the stuff you mentioned was at a specialty wood supply store.
The strips were pre-sanded, microbevelled and unfinished. They still had to put the bevel in because you are not going to sand it on site. They called that premium grade, beautiful straight grain with average lenghts of 6'.
It is rare that we use the old jobsite finished flooring anymore. The prefinished is done once installed. You can't duplicate the finishes they use on site. They are high tech ceramic coatings put on in a controlled environment. There are so many choices it's like picking out paint. Your supplier is living in the dark ages. You should go to a flooring store.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
actually it might be me living in the dark ages...this is a flooring store with tons of prefinished options, but I was looking to get it unfinished, for the reasons I mentioned....ultimately, I guess I am thinking about a more "natural" look than the factory finish, but with the ease of the factory machining....
toledo.. i'm with your supplier.. why would you want to do that?
the prefinished profile has the micro groove.. site finished does not.
the prefinished coating is superior to field applied...
i like both.. but to me ...what you are looking for is the WORST of both products
do one , or the other...but don't combine them into an inferior install
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Have been watching this one with lots of interest. No one's mentioned how fake the factory finishes look. Gotta be tough to get those kind of warranties.
I'm thinking that I'll install the old-fashioned stuff in the old-fashioned way. Do I just need to get with the program or are there others who also don't like the look of beveled edges and aluminum oxide?
ShelleyinNM
that's part of what I'm talking about - the fake look of the prefinished...and Mike this stuff I'm looking at does have the micro bevel, making for a good install, but I wonder if on site finish might minimize that possibly objectionable look of the grooves...
but...there's a wood supply place going out of business, so I could get #2 red oak for a steal...
still thinkin....
I've never tried what you suggest, but here's what I'm imagining.....You lay the naked floor with the micros and then (if I've got this right)....you hope to lay on the finish afterwards.......with very little or no sanding. If trying to minimize the look of the micros, you'd have to apply numerous coats to fill 'em. Possible? Yes.But what happens when the flooring inevitably shrinks with reduced RH? The natural point of individual board shrinkage and separation will be right down that joint you troweled full of finish. The finish will then crack right down those micros....and that won't be pretty. No guarantee either that the cracks would be dead straight like those of non-micro beveled boards. Might crack somewhat erratically where the finish bridges both micros.The look of the factory applied finish doesn't strike me as warm and inviting either though. Personal call as to whether one wants to live it or not.And I can't help but consider what may lie a bit further down the trail when/if the need for finish renewal becomes necessary. I think you'd have to remove all of the factory finish to get any new finish to adhere. So you'd then be facing a job of uniformly removing/sanding off..... all those micros at that time. I guess I'd either opt for laying the stuff with the factory finish for now or install conventional non-beveled solid wood flooring, do the after-install sand job and then finish of your choice.Or maybe I'm all wrong here and you're actually thinking about a penetrating finish, instead of filling the micros with a film type finish. That would probably give a softer look to the micros, but would probably require more regular maintenance and wouldn't really be recommended if a kitchen is involved. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I now find that the flooring does not have the bevel....
so now I'm thinking I could lay it and then just hit it with a random orbital to ease it a bit....still sounds easier than the raw material...
your point about the gappage is well taken - I guess it would take a pretty controlled environment to avoid some seasonal movement. this on the other hand is a log cabin on a questionable crawl space (working on it ), so I am concerned about that...
some of this will be in a kitchen, so I'm concerned about that as well - an old post by Mongo I think said he strongly advised against putting the prefinished in a kitchen (dirty little grooves...) so I was thinking that a site finish would seal it better, but again if there's shrinkage,you got gaps anyway, so I dunno...
and yes the user friendly finish repair is another benefit I had thought of....
thanks for the input...
If you are a typical family, the hardwood floors will take a beating in high traffic areas. I have a 25 yr. old red oak floor. I installed and finished it. I'm not a DIYer. Within 5 yrs. the carefully applied 3 coats of oil based polyurethane was wearing. This long winter has shrunk the boards so there are gaps all over. This summer everything will be tight again. Sealing the surface won't stop wood movement. Even the pre-finished will move.Ceramic coatings are not the same as aluminum oxide. Both are designed for scratch resistance. When the time comes, you can sand and refinish the pre-finished floors. The factory applied finishes will outlast any site applied finish. Applying a site finish is quite expensive and time consuming. Water based finishes require a lot of coats for durability. The oils need three coats for a high quality job. There are some higher tech moisture cure poly's but they are not for the average DIYer. Without using the proper precautions, they can cause respiratory failure or permanent damage. It can take an extra week to apply a site finish plus the cost of materials. It's a lot of hard work and the job has to be shut down to only that. The only site finished floors I see these days are custom jobs with inlays and other special features. Many pre-finished products are available with borders and other decorative options. It just depends on how deep your pockets are. With any hardwood floor, it won't be long before you will want rugs in the traffic zones and protective pads on the furnitureBeat it to fit Paint it to match
this floor is for an old log cabin - the client is not sure of the ultimate use for the place -monthly rental, nightly rental, maybe live there, maybe sell it to some rich californians, she don"t know - so I'm exploring options while trying to pin her down on what she really wants....more traditional look of site finish vs. durability of prefinish, etc....
I've done a good number of standard oak and pine floors, but never done the prefinished kind, so I'm unsure about it, but the idea of the well machined and sanded wood with a site finish sounded like the best of both worlds, though Mike Smith said it sounds like the worst of both, and I'm still not sure why...
anyway, thanks for your input...
You might want to check the previous post for further info on the newer prefinished floor coatings.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
toledo...
theres a misunderstanding here..
here's your original post ..
<<<<
I asked my supplier if I could get this (3/4 x 3 1/4 oak, machined and sanded like the prefinished but without the finish) and she said "yes...but why would you want to?"
so, I'm thinking : easy install...no sanding...more finish options...similar price...
maybe site finish would give a better seal ( maybe not with shrinkage), maybe it would sorta minimize the bevel...>>>>>>
the worst case is using a microgrooved unfinished floor and then finishing it.
my choice would be using a factory finished floor and moving on to something else.
since the owner has no idea of the ultimate use of the area, why are you concerned?
if you want the best looking , go traditional, install and finish in place.
if you want the most effective, use the factory finished..
but don't use an unfinished pre-sanded and micro-grooved product ( if such an animal exists ) and then finish it
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/11/2005 7:36 am ET by Mike Smith
Mike - I guess that is the crux of the question - best looking vs. most serviceable - that the client must decide...unfortuneately, cost also has some bearing. there are some beautiful prefinished products that I'd love to use but are probably too high for her, though the budget is ethereal....there are decent products in her fungible price range...
I'd really rather go with the prefinished, but looks and cost are still wrestling around in her head...
my main idea for the original post was just a way to skip the sanding step. have a more natural finish, and possibly seal it better(kitchen), though I think that's not realistic...
thanks alot for your thoughts.
Hmmmmm.It would seem from this info that ceramic coatings do contain aluminum oxide and are difficult to sand and bond new finish coatings over the top.Sounds like a prefinished product with the new anti-scratch coating for the top coats is the way to go here.Might be important if choosing a prefinished flooring that you ascertain the one you choose has this new anti-scratch. http://www.wflooring.com/Technical_Info/Finish_Options/ceramic_uv_finish.htm Click the little illustration to get the low down on the finish application.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that site. There's a guy that contributes on this forum that does some amazing floors. I think he is from an Arabic country. I remember him recommending a finish but I don't remember who he was or the product. They are certainly improving the technology with finishes. Hardwood flooring fell out of favor for a time due to the maintenance issues as well as cost, in my experience. I've been watching an engineered floor that was installed in a local lumber yard office. After five years, the top layer is completely gone. The floor gets abused to the extreme. This is a product similar to Pergo. There is no option but to replace it now. When it comes to flooring, I give customers an allowance and let them choose the flooring contractor and material. There are a good choice of hardwoods that run $6 to $10 a sq. ft. installed. More and more options are coming from all over the world. The ones that I have revisited have stood up very well. Most likely the finish was aluminum oxide only. A lot depends on how the owner treats their floor. There is also the added concern with radiant floor heat in many newer homes. As a builder, I'm glad this doesn't fall under my responsibility.The floor refinishers are always busy with older traditional floors. The few I've heard about redoing prefinished floors, sand to bare wood. I haven't heard of any dealing with ceramic. They will probably come up with a ceramic or diamond paper or stripper when the need arises, if they haven't already. If the original poster is renting the place, I'd probably think about diamond plate or cheap vinyl.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I think this may be the fella you mean.http://www.iandgilham.net/
What I find interesting concerning this new "arrangement" of the finish layers on the factory stuff is that the ceramic layers are way down there under numerous other layers of the new stuff. And they state that it's still under there primarily to help prevent wear thru to the bare wood. Kinda sounds like it's been relegated to the status of a last ditch life-preserver only……in favor of a top finish with more eye-appeal and easier recoating. I can only surmise that there were enough complaints voiced concerning the previous ceramic finish that they felt it profitable to develop a new game plan and all the investment that involved. Needless to say, I haven't personally seen any of this very new finish…..that I know of with certainty…….. but I can say that I have as yet to see a factory finish that didn't leave me cold. Lots of folks complain about the plastic appearance of the polys, but the oil-based looks warm and cuddly compared to the FA finishes that I've encountered. And those OBs I'm experienced with have held up admirably on three coats for up to 15 years now. Major traffic areas too. Kitchens, dining rooms, etc. I guess I see a lot of parallels here with vinyl siding. A trade-off between aesthetic appearance, maintenance, initial cost and long-term cost. I do know that I yet prefer to paint the wood claps rather than install vinyl here. With the newer paints like SW Duration, the long-term costs of that diminish because of its long life and durability. Maybe in another ten years as a little arthritis sets in, I might find myself thinking about vinyl. But for now, I'll do a little more maintenance to have that warmer, more aesthetically pleasing environment. Different strokes. Leaving the choice totally to the HO as you do…… is definitely the way to go….so long as you steer 'em clear of Pergo. <G> Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
thanks for the heads up on the newer finish - I'll see if it's reached my area on the wagon train yet...or just get the standard "do what now?" actually, with the way this area's booming - walmart, tyson, jb hunt etc. - we're catching up to the real world....
That's the person, Goldhiller. Thanks.This is a pretty good site. Quite a few links to different manufacturers and other information. They don't share their finish secrets but there are many new things they are trying, diamond, titanium, impregnating products,... There are also some of the older style as well as reclaimed and hand scraped products. From what I've heard, the engineered floors offer the best stability in comparison to solid wood. There sure are plenty of choices no matter what you prefer.
http://www.floorfacts.com/wood-floors.aspBeat it to fit / Paint it to match