can anyone tell me the benefits of joining the local carpenters union? not to sound dumb but is there a benefit other than the money??
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The money is the main thing, certainly. Each district council and local union have different rules and separate contracts with their employer/contractors. So it's not possible to generalize about other benefits.
All locals have health insurance but what it covers is up to the officers and members of that local.
You'll have to tell us where you plan to work before anyone can tell you whether the union there is worth joining or not.
In my experience, the carpenter's union is a difficult and unpleasant way to earn a living. Most of the work is heavy and repetitive, sometimes dangerous as well. Lower back problems are very common.
Unless you're in one of the rare locals that does houses (always for a lower hourly rate) you'll never do any framing with wood. Trim work is nearly non-existent.
Most union contractors have little regard for their employees. Their main interest is getting maximum production from each carpenter. Through their company supers and foremen they use intimidation and fear of being laid off (fired) to push for maximum effort at all times.
Internal union politics are another PIA. Some guys are treated better than others, given the best jobs, etc. It's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes or how to avoid getting the short end of the stick.
All in all, it's not a great way to work or live but sometimes it's the best way to keep making the monthly loan payments.
Edited 9/19/2008 11:40 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Being a Carpenter union member out of 2361 in So- Cal. I see it this way. I never did buy into the politics of the union. don't need soemone telling me how I "should" vote Never had an issue of being out of work, in 15 years. Put in a honest days work you will continue to get work.The money is the best part, nearly $38.00/ hr on the check.
Vacation pay equal to $2.81/ Hr for every hour worked is paid every 6 months. Personally I'd rather have it on the check.
Medical, dental, eye care insurance and a pension that is better than most companies.Keep your dues paid up don't get involved in the squabbles and BS politics and in 20 years you can retire quite comfortably.ML
Wish I'd been in your local. NY locals are not run that way or that well. Lots of differences.
But that's why I told the OP to tell us where he plans to work.
I agree but in new york don't you have to "pay" the elevator operator to get up to your floor to work. I think organized crime is still very alive in some trade unions.ML
I agree but in new york don't you have to "pay" the elevator operator to get up to your floor to work. I think organized crime is still very alive in some trade unions.
I never worked union in NYC. My local was up the Hudson Valley in a farm country, covering from West Point to the Catskill mountains on the west side of the river. Nonetheless, the influence of NYC's corruption was felt in our area, sometimes in pretty obvious ways.
I worked in Northern NJ on a couple of jobs, when that was the only work available. The internal politics there was worse than in my local, bad enough so that I avoided going back.
Hudson Valley Carpenter.
I certainly do agree that each local varies.. those here in Minnesota are decent places both to work at and to run a company with.
As you pointed out health benefits are good here, as is retirement..
by age 55 you retire with full benefits and pension..
Their pension is well funded and managed..
They train the workers and promotion is dependant on that training not kissing someones hairy butt.
Owners benefit not only from retirement and other benefits they are also helped to find work for employees so they don't have to be sent back to the hall when there is a lack of work..
It's relatively easy to let an employee who isn't hacking it go and the process is straight forward.. So there is little worry about feather bedding. On the other hand you cannot simply fire someone because you're in a bad mood..
Much of what you say about lower back problems are more a result of the type of work than unions or non-union..
Company Supers and foremen have goals to achieve same as in any business but they also have limits as to what can be done and the way it has to be done safely..
Many of my customers started out Non-union but became union after looking everything over completely..
True few really big homes are built with union help but many developments and the majority of town houses and apartments are union built.. Thus you are correct that after a while the work does become repetative..
Frenchy,
Your view is from the outside looking in, with some speculation added to support your opinion. Hardly worth the time to read.
Hudson Valley Carpenter..
Not hardly, I spent 17 years with people many in the union. In fact I sold equipment to the unions so they could train their own operators. I repeated what management and employees told me. Few of those in the union really had any beef with the local union.
I did hear numerous comments about how superior the local was compared to other unions and I can't say as much about some of the other local unions I dealt with on a regular basis..
That's why I agreed with your statement regarding local conditions do vary..
it would be in the new jersey area..... i mean back problems seem to be common in any trade you join, union or not. i have looked into it a bit more and the pension and annuity are wonderful.
it would be in the new jersey area..... i mean back problems seem to be common in any trade you join, union or not. i have looked into it a bit more and the pension and annuity are wonderful.
So why did you ask the first question if you're already convinced it's for you?
Good luck to you. I hope that your fate in the union is better than was mine.
BTW, you'll probably have to work for many years before you'll qualify for that pension. I paid into my local's pension fund for over ten years and never seemed to have enough hours worked to get anything out of it. Be sure to read the fine print about all those plans, before you get excited about how good they look.
When I went to get my annuity money, a couple years ago, they bookkeeper explained that about half of it had gone to pay for annual "administrative fees". So not only did I not receive any interest on that money, the union screwed me out of half what I'd left in that account. And they did it legally.
Edited 9/18/2008 10:11 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
i worked non-union doing residential construction in boston for 15 years as a self employed carpenter. i joined l.u. 67 in boston 10 years ago. in my experience the guys i worked with are more professional and just plain more courteous . i have worked steady and stayed out the political aspect of union affairs. my pay is higher with great retirement plans and health insurance. the work can be repetitive sometimes but if you are good at what you do you can pick better assignments for yourself. you are paid well but are expected to know your job and be productive.
That's it...money in the form of higher wages and benefits. I got a good education from them in the form or a four year apprenticeship training that included formal classroom style schooling.
During my apprenticeship program we had to go 1 week every six months. lots of the guys could not add fractions or even figure area or volume. when it came to blue print reading a few could not read a tape. still a pet peeve of mine. These guys later went on to become tapers. No tape reading needed there. as others have said don't expect the union to be there for you. I got screwed out of 3 years pension credit even with check stubs to back it up. They just never wanted to go against the co. thats paying in all the benefits for one apprentice. Put $ away on your own. Even though my Pension is worth about $150-175 per month for every year worked, we still save extra just in case....
It depends on the union and what you are looking for...
I worked in custom home building, high end remodel and commercial. I joined the carpenter's union not for the pay, but for the better working conditions and benefits. At 23 and not having responsibilities, I thought 'well why not, might come handy'. When I married and we had four kids, I appreciated my unintended foresight.
After 19 years I had an on the job career ending injury. Although I received 6 months of continuing benefits, after that I got no help whatsoever. Unions (usually) look after the working members and (hopefully) honor those who made it to retirement for their hard work improving working conditions, pay and benefits. But as in many jobs, when you reach a certain age, and/or can no longer work, you're disposable. (This just happened to my brother who was a teacher for 20 years - his union wouldn't do anything to help.) Unfortunately conditions, pay, benefits have gotten worse since '82. I would suggest that you provide for the future and not leave it just to the union. My father and grandfather were lifelong union members, as were many uncles.
My uncle was a Union Carpenter in New Jersey for years.
He pushed hard for both my cousin and I to join the union.
At the time, we looked into it. Not sure about today but back then( early 80's) you had better like building concrete forms,Metal Studs, Hanging drywall and screwing 3" clamshell to metal studs with trim screws. Because that was all you were ever gonna do.
If all you are looking at is the money and benefits, look hard. There are better options.
you had better like building concrete forms,Metal Studs, Hanging drywall and screwing 3" clamshell to metal studs with trim screws. Because that was all you were ever gonna do.
That was how it was all over, under the basic Heavy and Highway contracts.
Building and stripping various types of heavy, oily concrete forms...in all kinds of weather conditions. Always a rush to get ready for the next pour. Push, push, push.
Inside commercial work; plywood covering the window openings to protect the job. So you work with limited artificial light doing metal stud and sheet rock, all day. Chop saws screaming through steel, Hiltis shooting nails into concrete. Very oppressive conditions, heavy repetitive work.
I recall numerous metal stud and sheetrock jobs I worked on during the winter. I saw the sunlight for a total of about an hour and a half each day. Felt like a coal miner.
A few times I was lucky enough to do store display assemblies, after the windows were in, the linoleum floors were done and the heat was working.
Imagine that. The best job the union has to offer is putting metal shelf systems together in a new drug store or supermarket.
And those jobs were usually good for only about two weeks, then back to waiting for the phone to ring, hoping that the next job isn't too far from home.
Did I mention how many union guys have serious drinking and drug problems? Miserable people to work with. Dangerous too.
They're often the nephew of some long time member who pulls some strings to get them a job that they're not qualified to do and don't appreciate. You never know when you'll be assigned to work with one of them as your partner. And then you have to do enough work for two of you while listening to the guy gripe about everything.
That's one example of nepotism in unions, another "benefit" of being a member.
It's sad to look back on those years and realize how little I gained from the experiences. But, it paid the bills when other work wasn't available.
In a nut shell, union carpentry under Heavy and Highway agreements is the opposite of fine homebuilding or any kind of real craftsmanship. It's a topic that is only worth mentioning in passing, on a message board of this nature.
Edited 9/19/2008 3:41 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
A while ago the local had it's bench cleared and contractors still looking for help.
A business agent asked a few of us Sole Proprietor types if we would be interested in joining.
He talked all about benefits and quality of life ect, ect..................
A guy or two i know jumped on the band wagon. The big draw was that since they had been self employed they would enter as journeymen.
Then when things got slow?
They were told "well you never were really an apprentice and that's kinnda a problem with some of the guys so we're going to have to knock you down to second year".
They were told "well you never were really an apprentice and that's kinnda a problem with some of the guys so we're going to have to knock you down to second year".
Sure, because they wanted most of them to get P.O.ed and quit, leaving their initiation fee and all the benefit money they'd earned in the local's accounts.
Either that or they were working hand in glove with the contractors to provide them with lower wage apprentices who had all the skills and experience anyway.
The only good thing about accepting a deal like that would be that, as an apprentice, they'd be working all the time.
Contractors are always looking for apprentices because they're young, have plenty of energy and can be taught to do anything required of them in a very short time. Working for two thirds the journeyman rate, they're almost guaranteed a full year's work, even when things are slow.
The union apprenticeship program is as much about endoctrinating the apprentice into believing union propaganda as it is about learning new skills. The aim is to make the apprentice into a union advocate, not an independent thinking individual.
The union likes to be able to swing local and national elections too so their attempts to indoctrinate members to their way of thinking is constant and often heavy handed.
A few years back the union reps showed up in one of our subdivisions looking to sign us up. I laughed when I saw the business agent get out of the car...it was my high school buddy...the guy that got me into the trades LOL.Anyways, I listened to their spiel (I always do) and then politely told them that I wouldn't sign any contract with them that included any legalese because I already got scammed out of 7 years of benefits. They promised me that they had lots of union general contractors looking for union carpenters. They told me they had lots of union workers to fill my vacant employee slots. It seemed like a contradiction to me. Anyways, to make a long story short: the crew down the street signed with them. They promptly used ten guys to build the same house that my partner and I were building alone. We put in two extra days than them....I think we were on the house three weeks (15 days). They needed 13 days with ten union carpenters. I don't need to tell you that they went bankrupt on their first house. A month later, the superintendent was asking us to do some of their service work. They didn't even finish that first house!
Correct, the bridge and road workers building the forms for bridges are also carpenters. i woudl not want to be a form builder every day.Talk about a shortened life span. Our union is an interior trade for high rise T.I. It's made up of steel stud framing, hangers and ceiling guys. Yep I'm a t- bar guy. I know what you mean about screaming chop saws, not seeing any sunlight. All the building we work in are up and have windows, but theres something about leaving at 4AM to go to work and getting off at 1PM (no lunch) 20 min. break at 9 AM.
Have the rest of the afternoon off. But then again when it's 95* out we work in air conditioned space.The drugs & drinking are in every trade. Some more than others such as roofing,:) then again my wife trains stockbrokers and she said most are alcoholics there too.ML
Yep I'm a t- bar guy....All the building we work in are up and have windows, but theres something about leaving at 4AM to go to work and getting off at 1PM (no lunch) 20 min. break at 9 AM. Have the rest of the afternoon off. But then again when it's 95* out we work in air conditioned space.
Very smart of you to do ceilings. I wished that I gotten into that more, could've avoided the back problems, but in our rural area we had to do whatever came up or forget about working.
Our inside work was all commercial spaces, high walls done with 12' stand ups plus topping out.
Other than ceilings my favorite job was cut man for topping out. A little jigsaw puzzle around all the stuff in the overhead. Also fairly light work, it was interesting enough to make the day go quickly.
Working in SoCal, those hours are just about perfect...for the traffic anyway.
Got Tivo? ;-)
Edited 9/19/2008 10:59 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Yep have too. 9PM is late to be up on a work night.Traffic is a nightmare. but still only about 50 minutes to downtown L.A. from Orange County.Watched the topout guys, seems like they have all the fun and have to think some, not as mind numbing as running grid in office after office.ML
Watched the topout guys, seems like they have all the fun and have to think some.
With a good partner, topping out really can be pleasant and interesting, particularly if you can work together to get tight fits around everything.
I also enjoyed back-cutting pieces to fold around obstructions, ending up without any cuts showing on the face but surrounding something in a way which looked impossible to do without cutting.
When the foreman came by I'd point out one of those puzzles and ask him to figure out how we did it.
The foreman can't really tell how fast it ought to go so, as long as the scaffold keeps moving, he leaves you alone. That's a blessing in itself.
Edited 9/19/2008 11:37 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter