Unions . I would like some feedback on how most of you feel about unions . If your for or against them . Please explain .
Mike – Foxboro , Ma
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Take a drive through a rust belt town like Youngstown Ohio, and do some research. You might come to the realization that I grew up with.
That, to a great extent, unions caused American industry to be uncompetitive.
However, I also believe that unionism will enjoy a resurgence over the next twenty years, and workers in America realize that they are no longer a part of the middle class.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
I have managed and worked in both union and non union shops. I believe that most if not all of the businesses that ended up with a union did so because they screwed their employees so bad they would do anything to make it better. But, after a while it seems all unions start looking for reason to justify their existance so they start supporting petty BS grievences that have little or no bearing on the day to day work enviroment. And they continue to force wages and benefit increases no matter what the economy is and thus start putting the business in a uncompetative spot.
As far as the unions that work out of a hall I think for the right type of business, where you need to man up or down with some frequency, it can be a good thing. In fact I suggested to a friend he unionize his business for that very reason. But for residential work unions have priced their way out of the market in my area. Too bad as they probably have and had the best training available. DanT
I grew up fairly close to Detroit, lived there 25 years. My mother was a consultant to the UAW for a long time. I do not agree with you that unions have made American business uncompetitive, at least as far as the auto industry goes. For quite a while there they made stupid vehicles with lots of problems. My first truck was a Ford, and it was a POS. The next few were Toyotas, great vehicles. Currently have a newer Ford and a Toyota. The Ford is a keeper, I am happy to say. I would have bent over backwards to buy American but you'd have to be a fool to buy one that is belching black smoke at 100K miles when you can get a Toyota that will go three times that.
I have been in the trades a little over 20 years, never in the union although I worked quite a while in the Bay Area where the is a lot of union work. I credit the unions with supporting the wage scale for us non-union guys. A skilled carp can make $25-30 there, partly because if he's not paid that much he can go union.
For a while I ran employment training programs in the trades and had a lot of interface with the locals. They are very strong on safety and training issues, way way beyond the non-union companies. They are also a little hard on minorities and women, which I think sucks. You can be one of us... as long as you're one of us.
Unions are the only reason there's a middle class. You are right that we're not going to have one soon, and maybe unions will regain some lost ground.
I do not agree with you that unions have made American business uncompetitive, at least as far as the auto industry goes.
I worked for Delphi -- formerly the various parts divisions of GM -- for more than two decades. On the day I was hired, I was given a tour of the rather large (2.5 million sq. ft.) complex. My first comment to the person who was leading me around was "This place will never survive" -- because so many of the unionized workers were sitting on their azzes doing nothing. His response was that they had "already made their rate".
As time went on, I learned that the 'rates' were the things that the union spent most of their time and efforts on. In effect, the union's biggest purpose was to give their members the most possible azz time, and the least possible rate.
Although I got out while the getting was good a few yearas ago, Delphi has filed bankruptcy, and it looks as though GM might follow.
Certainly, poor engineering, and poor market analysis, have both played a part in the current situation. But so have the unions.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
I certainly don't have the credentials you do, I just know that my mom always had to have an American car to park in the lots where she went and most of 'em stank.
As far as workers sitting on their butts, that says a lot about the workers and the management, and our culture as a whole, not much (to me at least) about unions in general.
As far as workers sitting on their butts, that says a lot about the workers and the management, and our culture as a whole, not much (to me at least) about unions in general.
That statement overlooks the obvious: the union leadership are also the guys sitting on their duffs. Unions in general should understand that they need productive workers to keep their jobs. Instead of setting up an agreement that allowed workers to sit on their duffs, they should have been horrified too and worked hard to eliminate those situations in the next agreement. Instead, they fight tooth and nail to allow their workers to receive 10 hours pay for five hours work.
I've said for a long time that if the trade unions negotiated similar agreements, only the wealthiest could afford single family homes. It would take each crew a year to frame what we do in a month.
Come to think of it: Isn't Europe heavily influenced by unions? Don't most Europeans rent apartments? Hmmmm, maybe unions aren't the cat's meow after all!
blue
every union boss and management guy in the trenches should read your post a dozen times a day until it sinks in. You said more in that post than will be said in the rest of this thread no matter how long it runs
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As far as workers sitting on their butts, that says a lot about the workers and the management, and our culture as a whole, not much (to me at least) about unions in general.
You're entitled to your opinion. But in my days as a business process analyst for Delphi, I visited literally hundreds of industrial facilities, both union and non-union, and even a few that were a mix. And what I saw does not support your opinion.
Without exception, the non-union shops were full of workers who were happy that they had a union and azz time. And the non union shops were full of workers who were working.
There's a big difference between azzes and elbows, and knees and noses.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Just a minute .
Since you are talking about the business.
People here have been raving over getting 35 miles per gallon from regular size family cars in Ford only. Seems GM failed that market share . Everyone .
Tim
GM has three major problems. Union contracts locking them into jobs preservation whether there is work or not - oroduction or not, is only one of the three legs .Poor or uninspired design and management decisions to pursue larger gas-guzzlers market is thje other part of the problem. I don't think they will go bankrupt, but they will play the card to break the unions contracts, IMO
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An example of GM and their poor management. One of my close friends grandfather worked for GM for 20 something years and retired with their pension and benefits. He died in 1982 or so after being retired for 5 years. Since '82 his wife has been getting 100% medical and dental coverage (if not, very close to 100%) and his full pension. She did absolutely nothing to add value to GM and she has been taking for 20 plus years. She's about 80 right now but in very good shape so she'll be on the books for probably another 10 plus years.<!----><!----><!---->
I remember seeing an article a few months ago that said General Motors health costs were 1% of the total health costs of the entire US. Besides making a crappy product and having an extremely poor strategy, their costs that they created with their spine-less negotiating has really put themselves in a very tough position. When one company is paying 1% of an entire countries health costs, they cannot be long for this world without breaking the union. I think you will see GM file for bankruptcy but really only as the way they can break the union contracts via the bankruptcy court. The UAW will not give back a fraction of what will be needed by GM and they will need the court to be the hammer and get some financial sanity. The airlines have used similar tactics this past year.<!----><!---->
GM and Ford to a much lesser degree never wanted to make the big fight against the UAW. GM would use just in time inventory management (keeping small on site inventories and manufacturing in a timely manner to prevent storage and other costs). All (or almost all) of the factories, i.e. the engine plant, the frame plant, the wheel plant, etc were all part of the UAW. When the contract was up for the engine plant, the union would just say we want (fill in the blank) and negotiate that way right up until the contract expiration then go on strike. Within a few weeks the factories down the line would run out of engines so those locations would layoff employees, who would collect unemployment, and down the line the layoffs would go. GM would cave and settle the contract to get the company running. It is a major problem the way GM allowed all their locations to become intertwined and work like the OPEC cartel.<!----><!---->
We have only seen the tip of the iceberg with GM. When the real cuts (in jobs and benefits/salary) are sought, you will see a war. Another huge negative to the whole union cause is their dependence and their political activism with the democrats. They keep pumping union dues into democratic politicians who probably at least 40% of their members do not support and those pol's keep losing. So not only do they have no political connection, they piss of the members by wasting their money supporting people they do not.<!----><!---->
I agree that unions have contributed to the decimation of american industry. GM is the current example.But I can't agree that it is likely they will make a resurgence in any manufacturing sector. The jobs move offshore too easily. They only place they can even manage to maintain an exiostance is where there is a captive audience, like in public schools or hospital staffing or trucking
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>I agree that unions have contributed to the decimation of american industry. GM is the current example.On the otherhand without unions we'd just get the decimation of the american worker, so to speak. Both are bad. Good companies and industries figure out how to deal with unions. Regardless of where everyone falls on this issue, we can all agree GM is not a good company and hasn't been for years.I actually believe if a unions resurface it will be in white collar work that gets sent offshore, as you suggest, like software development, accounting, engineering, etc. Though the reasons will be far different than safety, etc.
Edited 11/25/2005 4:55 pm ET by BobS
I am a retired union carpenter.When I was a youngster I worked nonunion. The advantages for union carpenters are many. The apprenticeship programs are excellent, wages are fair and enough to support a family. Many areas have evening instructions for journeyman carpenters,this is to upgrade your skills and learn new ones.Since all carpenters in a given juristiction receive the same pay,there is no undercutting your pay by someone willing to work for less. I worked in the Philadelphia PA area for 36 years before retiring with a decent pension. With the exception of 1989 to 1992 there was plenty of work around. I worked 29 years straight without drawing an unemployment check. From 1989 to 1992 there was a depression in our area,not a recession.When I'm out of work it is a depression,when my neighbor is laid off it is a recession.
You will have health benefits,probably prescription and glasses too. Depending on your area you may have a good pension to fall back on,possibly vacation pay. The fringe benefits can be numerous.If you have the opportunity,go for it.
Many,not all,people who knock unions have not worked union. Some have worked union in the past and had a bad experience.You have to decide for yourself. My advice to you is to join the union, no holds a gun to your head if you decide to leave for whatever reason.
mike
What exactly did you do as a union carpenter? Around here it used to be that all union carpenters did only metal studs and sheetrock. No carpentry.Before I started framing I asked about the union because I wanted to be a carpenter and learn how to frame houses and additions but they had nothing but sheetrocking.Joe Carola
in those few areas where carpentry unions actually have teaching and apprenticeship training, that can be a strong point. We need more skilled tradesworkers.in c/olorado, the only union carpenters were form setters for commercial concrete work. most of them wouldn't know how to build a stud wall @16" OC hang a door plumb or layout a set of stairs to save their lives.once, when work was slow, I went by the union hall with a buddy who held a card as a hard rock miner. I took the test and the guy scoring told me I had one of the highest scores he had seen. ( This was twenty years or so ago before I really considered myself any kind of a real carpenter) My buddy who had only done timbers and cribbing and concrete forms in the mines got a position by virtue of his previous union card. They told me they'd call if anything came up.Thirty some years ago, I worked in a roofing oputfit that was a mixed shop. The union guys kept trying to get me to join. Finally, I asked them what the pay wopuld be if I did. They said i'd make all kinds of good money - $3.95/hr. I laughed - I had hired on at $4.10 and was already up to $4.50 based on my own value to the company instead of a contract
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I live close to Georgetown Kentucky and see the Toyota Co.Rolling 300-400 cars off the assembly line per 24 hour shifts. And whats more important, these autos sell for a profit.Everybody needs to study these non-union organizations.
If you think you should be required to pay your employee a "fair wage" (whatever that means) when your product or service sucks, your cooked. The unions are toast. stinky
Funny thing about Toyota is that in their home country they do have a union. All the Japanese companies do.
I believe the majority of the locals are very focused on training, and here they offer excellent training, with very good trainers. One of my best freinds was the training coordinator for the local, and I also know the man that was the lead trainer pretty well.....both of these guys are top shelf.
Every union also offers training at a higher level also, at big traing centres, and I've never heard anything but rave reviews from people that have attended them. I think the carpenters one is in Las Vegas. Several of the guys I teach with (all hardcore tradesmen) have gone....carpentry, plumbers and pipefitting, and millwright are the ones I've heard most about, and it's been all good.
Getting the guys to take advantage of the training is another matter, but from what I've seen, you can't fault the unions for offering excellent training.
Personally, I've always worked non-union, but alongside union tradesmen much of the time (as a tradesman I mean....I'm in the teachers union now)....and when I clash with the union guys, which I do sometimes, I tell them this....their focus should be on getting customers to CHOOSE union workers, because it makes better economic sense.....higher wages, but better productivity and better work because they are better trained.....better value to the customer in the long run. Out compete the non-union shops, and make union workers the first choice. And work your nuts off to get the job done for the customer at a fair price.
But, usually, I see the construction unions trying to impose their ideas on the marketplace.....this work belongs to the union, we're going to put who we choose on the job whether they are up to it or not, and this is what you're going to pay them.....and they aren't able to consistently supply top quality, productive people to the job site. Some are excellent, and some are barely capable, or they seem to have gone into retirement mode early.....I know you can return them to the hall, but I think the unions generally need to really focus on making their people the best available, rather than pressure politics.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
That model that comes from the old European guild structures would win my wholeheaarted support. it elevates the professiional nature of our trades. too few of the contruction outfits in residential building here hafgve long term jobs or a long term plan that allows for much in-house training in the budget, and too many times, those employers who do invest in training their people see them wave goodbye as soon aas they feel half competent. A good union program of high quality training, perhaps coupled with the tech schools would do something to change the actual and perceived nature of who we are and what our work is worth.personally, my experience has been that unions base their value on the "We, because we are many, are a powerful one to be reckoned with."
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Framer - hope you don't mind if I jump in. As a carp for 25 years and union the last 19, I've had a variety of work. Let me see if I can recap some of the last year, starting with last wedensday.
Unload trailer and install all millwork in new bank branch.
Install two nurses stations at hospital. Scribe, level cabinets, build countertop base, fit, seam, and install corian.
Another bank (wachovia this time) install millwork and trim package, hang all interior doors, install all door hardware.
Abercrombie and Fitch clothing- 5 nights scribing baseboard and repairing trim behind guys who were removing then laying new floors. Time and a half, nice.
New retail space in mall (Ann Taylor). Layout, metal stud, rock, acoustic and hard ceilings, extensive trim package, doors, hardware, and cashwraps.
Residential job. 21 townhouses, siding and trim on all.
Three months of arch. millwork, FRG panels, and door hardware installation on a 250 million dollar private home. The blocking for millwork had to be set to within a 1/16" or less for sections to line up properly.
Installing door hardware in 3 different public schools, everything from box mortise locks (several hundred) to double doors with vertical rod exit devices, closers, and a co-ordinater because there was no center mullion.
Framing and rocking fire rated walls between commercial retail spaces. Rocked floor to deck with double layer 5/8" rock and all seams and penatrattions sprayed with firestop.
800' (running) of mansard roofing at a strip mall. Metal framed and metal roof panels.
New family entertainment center. From layout to kitchen install to trim package. Three bars, two resturants, bowling alley, pool hall, disco, and archade.
Office furniture install (steelcase) for chase bank. Partitions, desks, file cabinets, etc. Two floors of the building.
Also I've taken night classes at my unions training center for first aid, ceilings, solid surfacing, and door hardware over the last three years.
All of which I guess makes me wonder where are you that all they do is frame and rock?
Buic
"All of which I guess makes me wonder where are you that all they do is frame and rock?"In New Jersey and I said that's all they used to do. It might have changed by now but I wouldn't know. I met a lot of union carpenters over the years that never saw any wood.Joe Carola
Buic,
If I'm not mistaken Framer is in New Jersey. Over twenty years ago My uncle wanted my cousin and I to join one of the locals in North Jersey. The one he had just retired out of in fact.
Neither one of us joined for exactly the reason Framer stated. Nothing but Metal Studs and Drywall, Or if you really pissed someone off, Bridge abutment forms.
Some of that here too, usually concrete work. Or out of work 3 weeks, sent out on 2 day job, out for 2 more weeks, sent on 1 day job... you get the idea.
When a nephew of mine asked about joining the carpenters union as a long term career choice, I told him to think about being an electrician.
I'm not particularly happy with the direction of my union, but I've got so many years invested in it that I'll ride it out to the end just to get my pension...
Buic ....
I started out doing concrete formwork,did mostly that for about 12 years with an occasional framing job. I did a little bit of sheetrock and metal studs,maybe a total of 3 years in 36 years. Most of the remaining years were trim jobs.I worked for several different shops,mostly installations,sometimes in the shops.I did a year or so of accoustical ceilings,dockbuilding here and there etc. I've been a union carpenter since 1962,retired in 1996.I worked for two home builders for a total of 6 months,I liked it but the ray was lousy.Residential work in the Phila. Pa . area at that time was about $2.00 an hour less than commercial work. Most of my working years was commercial work.I still keep busy in my shop,I make and sell chess turned chess sets ,boards and tables for the most part.Once in a while I do a small trim job, mostly for friends,relatives etc.
I suppose I could safely say that I did just about all phases of the work of a carpenter.I don't knock carpenters that haven't joined a union, and don't appreciate those that do. From my experience,those people that dislike unions have never worked union and usually are ignorant .If a person thinks higher wages,fringe benefits,etc are detrimental to the country,do not join a union.
Framer, this last rant is not directed at you or any other poster. I just had to let it out.
MIKE
Not to argue, but my point thru here has been that a capable ambitious person can easily earn higher than union wages without the union bosses.
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Hey Joe I have followed your posts in several areas, I frame the same way as you shoes and plates and toe nailing. and I have also followed your posts regarding exterior trim. I am I think about twenty years older and the difference is that I went to a great union apprentice traning program . I did house work for years and as unuion framers we had to work our butts off. If the guy was willing to pay unuion scale you had to earn it . I saw many days when a guy was let go at mid morning. The other difference is that we learned everything, framing, metal studs, concrete , and finish work both inside and out. The other thing we learned was how to teach and a common language to talk to apprentices. I think the weakness with american carpenters is how speclized we are all getting. some only frame , some only rock , some call themselves master trimers and can't make a finished set of stairs. They need a 500$ set of levels to hang a door. The traning That is where unions were great, and lost touch with the trade. As for GM I think the auto workers are much less at fault than the thinkers and leaders at GM who can't design a energy efficent and afforadable vehicle. And The american consumer for not making them be more forward thinking
You were lucky that you could do all that where you’re from. The union was useless for me for what I wanted to do. Metal studs and sheetrock wasn't for me. I wanted to work with wood and learn how to build a house. If the unions offered all the things that they did for you 20 years ago, I probably would've joined but they didn't.I have met a few guys over the years that call themselves a master of something and I just blink my eyes and let them talk. I would never call myself a master of anything. I'm good at what I do and any thing I do that's different I will do my best to get it done right and always willing to learn something new if it's interesting to me.There are guys around here that are just framers, sheathers, exterior trimmers, siders and just build decks. I've done all of that and roofing. I've also done a lot of interior trim, sheetrocking/spackling. I have to admit that framing is still my favorite and that I have a great passion for it. When I do exterior trim, I want it to look as good as my interior trim and love doing both.Joe Carola
"Since all carpenters in a given juristiction receive the same pay,there is no undercutting your pay by someone willing to work for less"
Just being devil's advocate-- I remember a couple of years back when I suggested that those doing woodwork get together and set pricing... I was berated for suggesting collusion and price fixing.
What's the difference between a union and a bunch of guys getting together deciding not to work for less than they need?
BTW--There's 15 of us doing just that now.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
I believe that the unions are a necessary evil. Without them everyone's wages spiral.
Unions are okay if they balance their productiity and wate rates. Around here, the trades union are balanced becuase there are so many different small contractors that the natural laws of supply and demand force them to remain competitive. That isn't true with the Big three. The UAW wielded so much power that the car companies were forced to move their operations out of states like Michigan.
The UAW workers in Michigan are protected even if they are the worst worker in the shop. The rules are changing and there's a lot of unrest, but it will happen. For instance, I had a neighbor who was the "cleaner" at a factory. He was proud of his situation because the job was so highly coveted. He pushed a broom. The reason he was "able" to get that job was because he had the highest seniority in the plant! He did nothing. He smoked dope all day and played cards and chess in the "satelite". That "cake" job changed for him during the crash in the 80's and he had to actually take a "real" job. In less than one summer, he was off with Carpel Tunnel Disease.
I also had a friend who worked afternoons from 3 to midnight. He was on the line yet he always managed to get to our 8pm softball game and always managed to get to the 9pm bowling league. I found it amazing that he could actually schedule himself for those situations. He was able to get 10 hours worth of work done in 4 or 5 hours! In those days, he would pay a guy 1$ to punch his card out. The guy had so many cards to punch that he had a college kid as an EMPLOYEE!
Many of those abuses have disappeared but the fact remains that they were there and I'm sure different ones have taken their place.
Unions are fine as long as their sole pupose isn't to protect workers who aren't working.
blue
I believe unions served a valuable service to this country
in their formative years, but now they have gotten so politically
motivated and greedy that I believe they have outlived their
usefulness.
My brother works for the post office, and he says he CAN NOT
get fired. They are union. I agree w/blue about not allowing
unions to protect the idiots and low lifes. But such as it is.
I also think the unions have brought a good quality of life
to those that have been fortunate to have a job w/a union.
It is like they have a jekyll/hyde personality. A lot of good
and a lot of bad.
The job I work for is non-union and probably is with out
a doubt one of the BEST carpenter jobs in my area.
I have 401-k, 3wks vacation, approx 9 paid holidays,
decent medical ins. Company vehicle w/company tools.
And to top it off I make a more than decent wage.
To say the least I'm very happy, but I also know
that I'm very fortunate!!!
i worked union before i went in the army.. textile workers ... in a fiberglass boat company
and i worked union construction ( heavy & highway, marine division ) as management (non-union position )when i got out of the army
the closest thing to a cushy job was the oiler on the big cranes.. but even they earned their pay... and the available talent from the union halls was amazing
i also believe that as the unions go , so goes the middle class.. and ,in spite of the abuses, i don't believe it is unions that make american business uncompetitive...
when you look at the vast difference between the ceo compensation and the line worker's compensation , you really have to ask why the management compensation is so out of wack... not to mention the golden parachutes that are so commonplace now
one of my biggest beefs with reagan was when he broke the unions.. when he did that he set the stage to break the middle class
it will be intersting to see how we will compete as a nation with the education gap that is developing between the west and China & India
another assault on the middle class is developing in public education ( another union stronghold )... in the comming generation i see public school teachers being rolled back into the economic strata they occupied before the '60's, before they were unionized....
when i was in school all the male teachers had three jobs, their day job, thier nite job & their summer job, and there was no pension system
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thank you for your kind words. I am a 3rd generation teacher, and I still remeber the stories about my grandmother waiting all month at the end of the summer to see if she still had a job.
As the unions fall there will be little or no people with the incentive to work for a living, who is going to bust it in night school to run a dollar store. A decent pay for decent days work was once the motto of the union. See where you can find that today without the union. Soon the health care costs will take many peoples medical benifits away, and then what will they have? Without unions many hardworking, dedicated people would be living in shantytowns around the country, scraping the sides of soup cans for meals.
As for people getting fired thats a load of bs. ANYONE can be fired from a union job. Most unions dont want POS employees stinking up the jobs they run. And I agree the autoworkers had it good once upon a time , but those days on easy street are over now, aren't they?
Making about 'unions' it is pretty hard to say anything meaningful in anything but the broadest sense. Unions are diverse. Both between unions and from local to local.
Something forgotten when politicians claiming to protect the rights of union members when limiting unions rights to contribute to political organizations. Most unions have a much high rate of participation and potential for individual voices than the political organizations which are claiming to protect them. Locally anyone in the union can show up on any Friday and redirect the resources of the local by simply making a motion and winning a vote by simple majority.
Often as few a half dozen people can change and greatly influence the entire process. This is democracy at its finest. Where else in America can so few make such a large impact without respect to their relative wealth or power. This is simple one man, one vote. As compared to national politics which often reduces to one dollar, one vote.
Competition. Business doesn't like unions. It doesn't like workers having a voice. Business is a central command control system that resents central command control only because they are not at the center and in command.
In their ideal world workers would work for free and drop dead when they are no longer useful. Business has only one goal - profit. And short-term profits at that. Workers are a business expense and expenses compete with profits. But expenses are not all created equal.
The same corporation which balks at paying its workers a decent wage and resents paying a million in taxes, 'oh the waste of it' they lament, has no problems paying the CEO millions. A CEO who all too often makes decisions a trained ape could see as wrong. But no worries on his part for while the organization crashes and burns he floats gently to earth riding his golden parachute as the well-heeled executive board claps.
In all this the history of unions gets lost. People forget that most of the labor rights, laws and norms only came about because union members were willing to fight, bleed and die to make it happen. Basic safety rules, the right to be paid in real money, usable anywhere, instead of company script, workman's compensation, an eight hour work day and five day week. All these were made possible by unions.
Without the counterforce to corporate power that unions provide none of these standards would have come about. When these changes were being made government was, and soon will be again, owned and operated by business. Unions, workers coming together to fight for their rights, was the only counterforce available to the common man. So soon this is forgotten.
Of course the right wing, true to form, gets most things backwards. They wish, taking their direction from the people who own the party, to make business more competitive by freeing business from obligations. Most of which they freely agreed to when it was advantageous for them to do so. So word goes out to eliminate unions, cut healthcare and sever obligations for retirements. All exactly opposite to what needs to happen. But not always in the way most think.
We don't need fewer unions. We need more. How about unionizing China. The need to collectivize started unions what more poetic justice than unions return to their origins and organize the workers in China, Korea and Russia.
Health care is central to any society. The US suffers from sicker people who pay more for health care than any western nation. Our infant mortality rate is above Cuba's. So much free markets getting people the best at the lowest cost. Unions have pushed national health care for decades. Unable to get it they have had to play the heavy by making it a demand on the business. The need is there unions just want the need met. Ironically, quietly pushing for national health care.
The retirement issues would largely go away if there was national healthcare. What remains would be easy for any business that has not raided the retirement fund for short term profit to support. Either way the businesses had legally accepted the burden. They made the bet and if it doesn't pan out those are the breaks. What even happened to paying the cost to be the boss. What ever happened to survival of the fittest in a competitive environment. Why is it that an executive crying over having to cut back to only two homes brings government protection and relief while workers losing their legally agreed to benefits is just 'one of those things'.
Unions, as with any other human endeavor, are not without problems. To the extent they are truly democratic institutions that represent the needs of their constituency while standing up to abuses by other vested interests they are a good thing. When they become just another business with an entrenched and comfortable establishment with connections to and interests in both business and government that conflicts with their constituency they stop being positive.
How that shakes out in real life and long term is always an issue but just because some unions have become corrupted away from the best interests of the workers does not mean unions, or the driving needs that created unions, are wrong. No more than accidentally driving into the ditch means you need remove the gas petal.
They way I see it there has to be a balance between management and labor. In many cases the Unions helped achieve a balance, which is good. However in some cases the unions became too powerful and upset the balance. United Airlines for instance. The unions took control of the company. They got pay and benefits beyond what the market would support, beyond what others workers in the same industry were making. They were headed towards bankruptcy and 911 just hastened it. Now they have essentially lost their pensions.There are many socialist European countries were workers get better pay and benefits then in the US. Unfortunately the also have unemployment rates twice what we have in the US. The recent riots in France are a result of their Socialist policies which make it difficult for companies to higher younger workers.Bottom line is that Unions can be a positive part of the American economy, but with too much power they can make it difficult for companies to compete.
"How about unionizing China. The need to collectivize started unions what more poetic justice than unions return to their origins and organize the workers in China, Korea and Russia."That was amusingReturn unions to the places wheere collectivist thinking and organization proved itself incapable of working effectively and destroying the very organizations they participated in. Wonderfully circular reasoning!
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Re: "collectivist thinking and organization proved itself incapable of working effectively"It has never been tried much less proven itself not to work. Given even a cursory reading of the history, especially the Russian revolution and, to a lesser extent socialist theory, what started as a peasant revolution that had adopted socialist tenets was highjacked by oligarchs who centered structures around themselves. As soon as their they had the levers of power they eliminated rivals and proclaimed their political judgments to be 'the voice of the people'. The same general course is true in China.Nothing remarkable in this. The US political system does much the same thing. The only real difference between the claimed failure of socialism and the vaunted success of the western capitalism was timing and the surrounding international situation. The Russian revolution buttressing up against WWI, when western powers sent in troops for a four way fight, and, just as they faced a chance for getting on their feet, WW2. The Chinese situation busting loose at the height of the Japanese invasion. Their situation greatly complicated in that it was a three way fight between major powers with several smaller forces serving only to further complicate the situation.Simply put neither the USSR nor China were unionized. The conception was the nation would be one union but, of course, is akin to the pope declaring everything done by the church as 'Christian', murder, holy wars and inquisition included. The claim can be made but it is not necessarily functionally true.The same game is played by totalitarian stated often including the term 'Democratic' in their names. Remember Iraq has had elections for decades. Each of which was won by the ruling party and leader by margins in excess of 90%. There are elections and elections. The US sliding a lot in this area with the selection of Bush in 2000. There are unions and unions. The US sliding as American unions are vilified, conspired and legislated against in the US.The workers in China are not unionized and often work for terrible wages in poor conditions. The capitalists in China are exploiting what amounts to throw-away labor. Only slightly better off than slaves. $.25 and hour, ten hour days with forced overtime, beatings, dangerous work conditions and sexual exploitation are common. The same things common in the US in the early 1900s.
Uh-HuhCollectivist thinking and socialist thinking are one and the same.Both names for a dead end street
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Once again your wrong because you haven't actually looked into it any deeper than the expected and entirely banal right-wing platitudes and and jingoism that pass for understanding.Collectivism, the sharing of resources and rights without reference to wealth or status, is a normal human tendency. Families do it all the time. A dedicated anticollectivist should toss the two year old out of the house. Unless you think you can own other people. In which case you have the right to protect your property. The whole idea of one-man one vote is collectivist in that the vote is independent of wealth or status. Only property owners get to vote and people can own other people? That, of course, was the original plan for the US.While your at it eliminate the military and the police and the fire departments. People want to keep the bad folks at bay can hire their own police and troops. Of course the military is not only socialistic, controlling the means of production, it is positively communistic, it controls the allocation of labor also, and command control, both authoritatively and indoctrinationally, to boot. It is also a social welfare state where clothing, transportation, housing, education of the family and health care are provided in context of a central authority and free or at cost only price. Need a shotgun to go hunting or a rod and reel to fish or a BBQ grill just head down to the base recreational services department and borrow what you need. Bases are full of collectively controlled and community resources. And the system works pretty well.Collectivism his a normal human tendancy and method of coping. It is not a governemtnal system.Socialism is an organizing principle of government. And it is nothing like dead. In fact the majority of industrialized nations have large portions of their government oraganized around the principles. All have large and vibrant social-democratic parties. Many have some proportion of their parliments or government occupied by social-democrats. Of course the reality is pretty hard to encompass in a ten second Rush Limbaugh sound bite or even something as erudite and learned as: "Collectivist thinking and socialist thinking are one and the same. Both names for a dead end street". Go figure.
Seriously tough choice... hard to decide whether you're a better electrician or political scientist... a major force to be reckoned with either way. Last year in the month or so before the election I worked a few months straight with a very conservative crew. It would have been great to have you eating lunch with that group.
Most truth is prety simple. It doesn't take paragraphs full of blathering on working around the subject. It just is what it is.Even the pilgrims tried collectivist organization for a couple years. They discovered it didn't work for them either. bountiful harvests came after they recognized that self-intrest was more motivating and productive.
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Again everyone seems to be ignoring Kentucky's Toyota. Building great cars THAT SELL AND SELL FOR A PROFIT, and line people making over 60gs annual. The real kicker in all this.....No union! Rumor has it unions are trying desperately to infiltrate this Auto plant...when this happens look for the plant to mysteriously close down. Good luck union members. stinky
Again everyone seems to be ignoring Kentucky's Toyota. Building great cars THAT SELL AND SELL FOR A PROFIT, and line people making over 60gs annual. The real kicker in all this.....No union! Rumor has it unions are trying desperately to infiltrate this Auto plant...when this happens look for the plant to mysteriously close down. Good luck union members. stinky
And as long as Toyota pays those wages and treats its employees well the union won't get in. Best of both worlds for the workers. The threat of a union motivates Toyota to appreciate its workforce and the workforce doesn't have to pay for a union.
Same thing happens up here with LL Bean. They show their employees the respect that Bean expects the employees to show to their customers. There have been attempts to unionize but they have all failed.
Another thought:
Unions were born out of a legitimate need but unfortunately became weakened internally by the same affliction they were created to battle - poor management.
Michigan UAW workers would turn their noses up at 60k per year. Most of them cracked 100k quite a few years ago. That figure includes OT.
blue
All the years I was growing up, my dad worked at Moog in WNY. They made valves, gauges, and actuators for Appollo missins, Lockheed, Bell aircraft, and others as a subcontractor. Non-union. Every two years there was a push to get the guys to vote to go union. But the Moog brothers were fair, paid better than the uniion plants did and offered better perks. The only guys there in favor of the union deal were the slackers. It was a running joke that the law required them to allow the vote every now and then when everybody knew what the result would be - no unions.
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During the early 1980's I worked for a west coast liquor distributor. As a college student and part-time union employee I was making over 20 grand annual. I will never forget the time when our salary increases were being negotiated.
The owner of this gold mine drives up in his Ferrari 308 (red). Calls this huge meeting with all warehousemen and drivers. He walks in the meeting room and says "Your contract is up and I cannot see the profitability in this business if you get your maximum raise".
The mood in the meeting room was festive and animated. We will show him who the boss is. Well he showed us. The business was sold soon afterwards and the union was broken-up and many of these high paid warehousemen were out a well paying job. The unions convinced many of us that we were "non-replaceable". It was a great lesson for me. Stinky
I guess Im old fashion.
If you come to my house I have the right to say get out. If Ive got food and drink I offer it , but dont go demanding it . The people Ive told to leave would count on one hands fingers but I still reserve that right -anytime.
When one offers another a job its up to the one paying what is offered. If a person doesnt like the job or pay then move on. Dont let the door hit um in the ####. As long as a company can hire people to do the job for their expected price then why give their profits away? No one would willingly do that.
Buck is pretty blunt , but there is truth . Hes right on with teachers. If I had the power , Id fire every one of them and start over . Id do it if I had to do 10 percent a year for 10 years till I got rid of every one of them. I pay their bacon , I should have a say. In other words they are sucking from public money, the public should have a say.Did you know teachers had tennure? Of course you did . Everyone knows that! What a bunch of crap!
When Ill "say we" started the war money had to come from somwhere. It wasnt laying on a shelf earmarked WAR FUNDS. They took it from the shcools and other public programs. Now the schools cant afford to stay open with out every dime they were getting and start bitching . They bitch nation wide . They get property taxes raised again after they just got a raise because of what the goverment did to them. They arent gonna quit bitching . They never do and never have . No one else gets payed more for less training , less tools , and has greater rewards and benifits.
A good friend of mine came to visit at the cabin and was bitching about his pay as a teacher. I told him to get over his self . He only worked 9 months a year with all holidays off plus added vacations. They dont start in the morning to 8:30 and quittin time is at 3:30. They have paid lunches and quite a few benifits.
Bottom line is the same as the top line . As far as Im concerned he should quit and try the factory down the street rather than bitch. I dont appreciate him stitting on his azz all day on my dime and then bitching about it . If hes gonna take my money then he needs to ride for the brand. Or clear out. Doesnt make me any difference.
Tim
I agree 100%.
Pay raises, amount of paid time off, and promotions should be based on job performance. Not seniority.
Teachers are the worst kind of strike because when they strike, they prey on parent's emotions. They decide they want a pay raise, and 3 more sick days. Then, all the sudden, people's lives are turned upside down because their kids aren't in school.
A couple years ago the PA Turnpike toll collectors union went on strike, and I have to admit it was nice. They hired temps, and charged a flat rate. All the money they were saving from not paying all their union members, the Turnpike was charging less, and making more. Eventually they reached an agreement, and came back to work.
Stacy's mom has got it going on.
Dustin,
I'm on the other side of the state from you and a couple of years ago, before all the migration from NYC and the surrounding area, the teachers here went on strike.
In the second week they had a town hall meeting to explain their stance to the parents. Since at the time Bethlehem Steel had just breathed it's last gasp and Mack trucks had just laid off as well as Lucent and Air Products, you can imagine not too many parents were sympathetic. Strike ended two days later and not only did they not get anything out of the deal, they actually took a step back in benefits.
I guess ya gotta know who yer trying to blackmail when ya do it.
"you can imagine not too many parents were sympathetic"This is the epitome of 'if I can't have it, neither should you' American mentality. And companies take full advantage of it.It's amazing to see union workers not support fellow union workers, but, alas, it's certainly not uncommon. As such, there seems to be a trend for workers to collectively LOWER their standard of living rather than raise it. Perhaps unintentionally.Recently, there was a lot of talk of Wal-Mart coming into our cities. A lot of the grocer's unions were upset about this (as Wal-Mart's grocery stores are notorious for wage cutting and union busting) and did a bit of protesting. But then you heard stories from the protest lines...unions members coming in to protest and start talking about the great deal on Snow-Tires they got at Sam's Club over the weekend. Sigh.
We are comming up to the time when Walmart will tell us how its going to be if thats not already happening . Theres no grocery thats big enough to to step in their way now . They are now king and crowned.
Tim
"unions members coming in to protest and start talking about the great deal on Snow-Tires they got at Sam's Club over the weekend. Sigh."It's the reality of human natuire.
Collectivism denies the fact and dooms itself to failure
Capitalism recognizes it and builds on it
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This is the epitome of 'if I can't have it, neither should you' American mentality. And companies take full advantage of it.
Actually Darrel I veiw life as one long series of IQ tests that one must negotiate. IN this case, going on strike because you were asked to pay $20 more per pay period for health insurance was probably a bad idea when you consider the following. Tons of people had just been laid off and found out that instead of $50 every two weeks they would be making COBRA payments of around $700 a month for health insurance. Propetyr taxes on those same recently unemployed people just rose 10% and a ton of them just found out the pensions they had counted on were gone for ever.
Maybe they should have waited a year?
"IN this case, going on strike because you were asked to pay $20 more per pay period for health insurance was probably a bad idea when you consider the following. Tons of people had just been laid off and found out that instead of $50 every two weeks they would be making COBRA payments of around $700 a month for health insurance."I don't disagree that it was bad timing. My gripe is that fellow americans getting all jealous of others that are trying to organize just because they fell on hard times. This is a natural, gut-reaction, but ultimately it just weakens the working class overall everytime it happens.And let's not even get into why our country is unable to give affordable health care to the masses. That alone would take care of so many employer/employee relationship issues. "Propetyr taxes on those same recently unemployed people just rose 10% and a ton of them just found out the pensions they had counted on were gone for ever."Exactly. "We got screwed so let's screw those other workers who are trying to avoid our same fate". Again, a natural reaction, but not healthy for the working environment."Maybe they should have waited a year?"Exactly the response upper management likes to hear. ;o)
Exactly. "We got screwed so let's screw those other workers who are trying to avoid our same fate". Again, a natural reaction, but not healthy for the working environment.
"Maybe they should have waited a year?"
Exactly the response upper management likes to hear. ;o)
All of the above are reasons why the Unions in this country have developed such a bad name for themselves. When the company is on hard times, you don't aks for a whole lot. You expect to be compensated for being loyal when things are better, but you don't ask for a whole bunch at that point in time.
Well, in this case, the community is the company so to speak. So when most of the " Company" just lost it's job, you don't go on strike over less than $100 a month.
You can search and for every "Bloated Executive Salary" story you find, you'll find one about a union making unrealistic demands on a company in trouble.
Lets face it. Perception and reality are one and the same. When one group is facing $700 a month COBRA payments and another is crying about less than $100, the perception isn't looking too good.
I could go on about my experiences with Union Labor but I won't. I've come to believe that the Unions are every bit as much to blame as management for the decline in lifestyle of the American working class.
"When the company is on hard times, you don't aks for a whole lot. You expect to be compensated for being loyal when things are better, but you don't ask for a whole bunch at that point in time."That's old school...back when being loyal to a company actually was reciprocated by the company. That's no longer the case. It's now a battle. Unions have been SCREWED these past few decades with meaningless promised from employers. 'Make this concession now, and we'll make it up to you when we turn things around'. Unions have graciously accepted these offers only to be later lied to. I don't blame them one bit for fighting while they can. Promises of pensions and such are meaningless these days."Well, in this case, the community is the company so to speak. So when most of the " Company" just lost it's job, you don't go on strike over less than $100 a month."There's always someone loosing their jobs these days. Again, I admit it was bad timing, but I don't fault them for asking what they feel they deserved. If we all waited to amke sure no one else has hit hard times for our raises, well, none of us would ever be getting a raise. ;o)"You can search and for every "Bloated Executive Salary" story you find, you'll find one about a union making unrealistic demands on a company in trouble."Agreed."Lets face it. Perception and reality are one and the same. "Agreed. :/" I could go on about my experiences with Union Labor but I won't. I've come to believe that the Unions are every bit as much to blame as management for the decline in lifestyle of the American working class"I agree that management has been able to make that perception believable.
And like the last reply, teachers do not want a group of people giving raises and perks without some sort of safegaurd to protect us from personal and political forces.
How do you assess a teacher?
You had ten kids score A's so you get an extra $1000, Oh and you had two F's, so you only get $250.
Be realistic, good teachers want to see this happen, but until you get the wolf out of the henhouse, no way.
I just read a thing about carpet on the board. Looked like a bang up job, real quick. Maybe he should ask for 25% of his money back, becase the job was a C-.
Yeah, teachers. Lousy good-ger-nothin' lot, lazy and overpaid. Fire every last one of em.
Really didnt say anything bad about them.
I think they have been trained wrong such as any union. They have demanded so much that they expect the treatment they have bitched about all my life. Im sick of their mouth. I pay them more directly than some people draw social security. I have a vested interrest . Why in the h^ll do I need to pay school taxes 21 times the basic amount ? I dont go to school or have a kid that does . I think the parents of children need to pay the full bill since they are using the ride . 5 dollars per day or what ever. I dont care if it was 20. The teachers would change then I bet cha .
I dont have any thing against teachers. You just have to see what you are looking at. The system has ruined them listening to them instead of the voters.
Tim
Wow. Me 'n you couldn't be any more different. I personally know quite a few public school teachers and from what I can tell they work very hard in difficult circumstances for very little pay, maybe 50-60% of what a carpenter makes. That's piss poor money no matter how many boat ramps there are in the county (we have quite a few here too).
In a lot of places they are buying supplies with their own money. Bear in mind that I lived in CA with Prop 13 where the schools are like #47 out of 50 states in terms of poor funding. Here there is a community group that raises money for supplies.
Anyway I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about listening to the teachers instead of the taxpayers. Are you saying teachers would be working harder if they weren't union? Doing a better job educating kids? Far as I'm concerned we need to pay 'em quite a bit more so that we can keep better people in those jobs.
For the record I have absolutely no problem paying the tax that supports public schools. I've had friends get degrees in education, become teachers, then quit when they realized how hard it was and how little they could make. I'd rather pay more and see those folks stick with it.
Yup we are 100 percent apart.
Any time this is discussed the merits of teachers and the welfare of kids comes up like trump cards. Just like Bush took the sympathy following from 911 and got the Irag war approved and of course lieing and bullying .
How good the people that teach are and no matter how sweet the kids are has nothing to do with it .
The people with kids should pay the bill. Period . You got two kids , thats 200 a week sir or somthing like that . Its your kids after all.
Or try this on for style and fit ;
One man has 21 properties and pays 21 times the amount people with 1 property pay. The man that has 21 properties has no children.
Or they could add an addtional 10 percent to income tax where every one pays the same amount . Of course deductions would not count .
Property tax equals school tax and should be named for what it really is. How is it fair that property owners pay for schools ??????? Weve had a 30 percent explosion of spanish students and their parents dont normally own homes as there are 20 or more people renting together sleeping on the floors on cots. Im paying for that. They are not.
Tim
Tim, you're on here whining about how you own 21 properties and are therefore paying more tax than no-pot-to-piss-in immigrants working in sh!t conditions. I'm gonna cry. You sound like a fortunate man to own all that, although I'm sure you'll tell us that fortunate has nothing to do with it, it's all about your smarts and hard work and nothing else. I don't feel the slightest bit sorry for you, paying what you do. I'm fairly well off too, have a lot more than most people, and don't ask for any breaks or any sympathy. Frankly, I'm glad I'm in a position where I CAN pay something, better that than being some hated landless peasant working for peanuts.
Guys like you need your own country. No one but landed gentry allowed. You can beat the crap out of anyone who tries to cross the border, and when you go to get medical care you have to show your deeds to your property and your original birth certificate or they toss you in the gutter. Oh, but there wouldn't be anyone poor enough to be a nurse or a hospital orderly or a records clerk... you might have to let those folks into the country during the day to work at the hospital and at McDonalds.
That didnt make a bit of sense .
You keep taking it personal side . Its not .
First you tried the teacher side and the students and now youre squared at me but like Bush you still fail to answer the truth so we must assume there is none which ends our convesation since you have nothing to offer.
If you had kept your head and had some smarts maybe you could have explained what property taxes have to do with school money and how that is fair? Instead you are using the smarts teachers have and just end up bitching as I had mentioned before. We already knew that.
Tim
tim... sounds like your real beef is with the method of funding schools.. which is almost universally the property tax..
and i agree with you as far as the funding method goes... it should not be the property tax..
it should be state funded.. however your state raises taxes.. in our case public educcation should be funded out of the state income tax
but blaming the teachers for the cost of education is untoward..
public education is a boon to our society.... and one reason we are losing the technology race to china and india is because we don't spend enough on educationMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"public education is a boon to our society.... and one reason we are losing the technology race to china and india is because we don't spend enough on education"What a bunch of BS. Public schools continue to spend more and more, yet test scores continue to go down. The idea that teaching the kids is directly related to funding has been disproven by all of the private schools around the country, for many years now. On average the private schools operate on about 1/2 the dollars per kid as the public schools. And yet somehow they manage to teach the kids much better.How do they do it? Higher standards. My daughter was in Kindergarten at a private school. The parents are given a list of the tasks that the kids must learn if they want to advance to first grade. If the kids don't master the skills they don't advance, period. No social promotion. No excuses. The reason other countries are teaching the children better is not related to funding. It's just that they have higher STANDARDS.
Well Mike I dont know anything about what you are speaking about . We do have one private school the catholics run thats a boarding school. They kick butt by turning out a high percentage of scores. But I never looked at the cost per child but it wouldnt really matter would it ?
Theres a small german community school that continues to kick everyones but with their scores.
To hold up for our teachers here and proove its not personal, our childrens scores are better than national averages . But wait theres more to it than that . We should be below with 30 percent spanish students that dont speak good english over all. Some are pretty good learning english and interpet for their parents that dont speak a lick. So with that burden we should be substandard carrying that 30 percent. The problem is all the scores suck along with the national average.
Tim
Tim,Seems obvious to me that the cost per student is important as it proves that the funding is NOT directly related to student performance. That is the point I was trying to make.Our local Catholic schools will not give out test schools to the public. They already have waiting lists due to the poor performance of the public schools. They are afraid if they give out the test scores the demand will increase even more.
Mike,
you are comparing apples with oranges
Catholic Schools---like where my wife teaches---are usually at least partially subsidised by the parish. This is a real dollar and cents benefit when the parish owns and maintains the school building---and helps ARTIFICIALLY keep the cost down.
the teachers are usually subsidised by a much HIGHER earning spouse----the few I know of who actually live off their catholic school salaries lead VERY frugal lives. Some catholic school teachers are retirees from a public school system collecting a public pension---and still earning in the catholic school system
the Catholic Schools usually do not have to meet the same physically accessible building requirements that newer public schools have to meet
Catholic Schools can toss out trouble makers
Catholic Schools do not usually have to educate " special needs"--students( Although the school my sons attend have a special ed department----the only catholic one in the area.
In short you are comparing apples with oranges----the published Tuition rates charged for a Catholic School may initially SEEM lower than the per student spending claimed by public school systems----but it is in no way a fair comparison----when you add in the value of the various parish subsidies etc.----and the fact that we don't have many of the most expensive requirements faced by a public school----and the fact that many of the teachers aren't really paid a living wage
the actual costs become MUCH closer.
AND---test scores----still not a fair comparison. some public schools face a transient population where a student may attend 3-4 schools in a school year( keeping ahead of the rent collector)-----this is not condusive to high test scores. Most catholic schools in my area are primarily a college prep enviornment with a high ratio of Honors and Advanced Placement Students----and parents keeping the kids nose to the academic grindstone
It's just not a fair comparison to compare public vs. private test scores
Not that the private kids are so great
just that the system is stacked AGAINST the public school scores in a direct competition of test scores
However----if you pulled out the scores of public honors and AP students from affluent sub-urbs---- I suspect the test scores would be VERY competitive with the private schools
Basically---we cherry picked.
Stephen.
Yeppers , they cherry pick so I found out today.
You are dead on but the records still stand .
So if a parent chooses to enroll his child in a Cahtholic progam its a betternent of the child.
Tim
Edited 11/28/2005 8:05 pm by Mooney
O H Y EA , you. LOL.
Ah h^ll , you bring another disfunction to the table thats not been properly dealt with either.
My point is the method of payment is not fair , and so we gather here , so what ? It stands.
Your point is at least two fold .
If you choose to either home school your kids OR send them to private schools because the public schools do suck that has been proven over and over again but its the lazy way to let it slide, you the parents that pay for your childrens education dont need to be paying school taxes! Its simply stupid not to give to a deduction if nothing else but you dont even get a reach behind. Sad . Not fair but it stands.
The scores from public schools suck big time . Im ashamed of either the kids or the teachers and lets go ahead and throw the parents in it too. I know here that as long as Im competent to do his work and over see it then I stand responseble just like him and the teachers. If he comes in with a failing grade we all suck.
I did some checking today to back this up. This state is averageing 76 percent as a whole in test scores . Thats a damn "C" from the school I went to. I asked about a private Catholic school we have here and they are suposed to be in 90 somthing percentile. I call that kicking butt and Im not Catholic. But and a big BUT , they only accept B average kids. Its not hard to train a dog when hes treeing coon when you get him. Our public school is 30 percent spanish. Umhumn swing blade . The interresting part of that is the state says , SO WHAT? Since Ive been told , so what , then I guess the thing to say is so what . Your question is , do the teachers deserve a raise if they are only producing "C" students ? Hmmm , strong point for the table when we vote again for school millage . Good strong point .
Of course theres a bunch of parents that need their azz whupped . You know that too dont cha? Probably a bunch of kids too I bet. But the voters are the parents once again and the majarioty rules to blame it on the teachers and the coaches. That will stand too.
Tim
how old are you, mike ?
do you remember when the USSR put up Sputnik ? and do you remember the commitment we made as a nation to increase our efforts in science & technology ?
what are you going to do with your private schools and their higher standards ? are you going to educate the masses ? are you trying to say that private education is doing a better job of educating our citizens?
how is that ? my town has a falling school enrollment , with a rising overall population. many of those moving here with school-age children, are sending their kids to private school..
so, here we are, a well-off community, with a falling school population.. and a higher and higher percentage of that population is special needs kids that the private schools can't accomodate..
very easy to have higher standards when you exclude the bottom half of the bell curve.. but what does it do for us as a nation ?
charter schools, private schools, religious schools, school vouchers... yada , yada , yada..
just another form of sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the problem of educating all of our citizensMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
what are you going to do with your private schools and their higher standards ? are you going to educate the masses ? are you trying to say that private education is doing a better job of educating our citizens?Mike. You are missing my point. For many years now the private schools have proven that kids CAN be educated by spending less money. It's a fact, THEY HAVE DONE IT. My point is that this should be an example for the public school systems to look at. Instead they just keep making excuses that they don't have enough money. how is that ? my town has a falling school enrollment , with a rising overall population. many of those moving here with school-age children, are sending their kids to private school..And why do you think they are sending their kids to private schools? Could it be that the public schools are failing? Maybe?The truth is the public school systems waste money on things that are not essential. They just built a new grade school in my neighborhood. The administrators were quoted in the paper saying that they were going to make the theme of the School all about "The Arts". This in a district that has test scores way below the national average. Several parents, including myself, contacted the School Board and told them to forget about "The Arts" and start teaching the kids to read. They responded with the typical elitist arrogance we have grown to expect.I know, I know. We live in a Socialist society now. Everyone must be equal. Those who get free schooling (or housing, or medical care, or food) should demand nothing but the best. Nobody should be able to drive a Lexus for fear of hurting the feelings of the Chevy owners. It's a brave new world.
mike...why don't you sit in on a couple of school committee meetings ? you might learn a thing or two
apparently you didn't read the other posts here .. they did a pretty good job of explaining the different conditions and the different mandates that the two systems operate under
or.. just take your own example to the ultimate conclusion.. if private schools are superior, then let's close the public schools and send all the kids to the private schools ....
then see what happens to their mandate.. and their costs... hah, hah, hah.. if it was easy it would happen... but it ain't ... is it ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Mike. You are missing my point. For many years now the private schools have proven that kids CAN be educated by spending less money. It's a fact, THEY HAVE DONE IT. My point is that this should be an example for the public school systems to look at. Instead they just keep making excuses that they don't have enough money."Well, we live in the Twin Cities where we were one of the pioneers of charter schools. Not quite a private school, but the entire intention was that if you 'privatize' the school, they can be more efficient and do more with less.The verdict thus far is still out. Plenty of these schools have failed miserably. Some have done OK. I also think you missed an earlier point that was made. Private schools mean that a parent has already made a concsious decision to actively participate in the child's education. Regardless of the actual cost, that student already is eons ahead of the poorer student going to public school that has a single mom working two jobs to keep them going.As for around here, we'd love to send our kids to private school. I have yet to find one that is spending less per student than our public school system.
"And why do you think they are sending their kids to private schools? Could it be that the public schools are failing? Maybe?"And why are the failing? Could it be becuase the good parents are sending tghe good kids to private school? Maybe?It's an evil cycle. ;o)"The truth is the public school systems waste money on things that are not essential. They just built a new grade school in my neighborhood."A physical school is non essential for a good education? I grew up in a small hick town just like that. Our school was 90 years old, overcrowded, and had all sorts of problems. Each year a referendum came around with the same blow hards. 'My dad went to that school so it's good enough for my kids'. and 'who needs a swim team? We don't even have a pool!'.Sigh."The administrators were quoted in the paper saying that they were going to make the theme of the School all about "The Arts". This in a district that has test scores way below the national average."So you are arbitrarily prejudiced against the arts? "Several parents, including myself, contacted the School Board and told them to forget about "The Arts" and start teaching the kids to read. They responded with the typical elitist arrogance we have grown to expect."Your complaint was elitist and ignorant. I don't think you understood with an arts school is. Basically, the spend less on football and more on that arts. Reading is reading and is taught in all schools."I know, I know. We live in a Socialist society now."No, we live in a representative democracy with many fine social programs (and some blatantly missing)."Everyone must be equal. Those who get free schooling (or housing, or medical care, or food) "should demand nothing but the best. Nobody should be able to drive a Lexus for fear of hurting the feelings of the Chevy owners."No, you're tossing out a baby-and-bath water argument.
MikeK,
It also may have to do with the fact that people who place their children in private school expect educating a child to be work, and want/expect the best from them. You don't see a much ADD/ADHD, special needs, mentaly retarted kids in private schools, tossed in with every one else either. Private schools, do better because in many cases PARENTS play the missing link that is missing in public education.
Mooney, head down to the rentals and kick out another two or three, our English as a Second Language are all full.
try50772,
You are correct----it is the PARENTS paying tuition who make the big difference in private schools.
My 2 sons have never spent a day in a public school----and it's funny how writing out a tuition check---motivates a parent to keep tabs on a kids education .--- when you PAY for something----you natural put a higher value on it---than on something you get for "free"
As an aside---- I am amazed by the attitudes I see here---people commenting on things they have NO FREAKING IDEA what they are talking about.
Let's look at teachers
My wife is a teacher.---she is Non-union.
We live a few blocks from her school---she is at school from about 7:00 Am untill about 4:30 PM------- she also does several hours of school work at home each evening. she works at school from early/mid august---untill mid June.
She makes less than half what a UNION school teacher would be making with her experience level------- By the way--- I pay for school supplies for her classroom---she could never afford to do it on her pay scale-----( that's right---the teachers' husband subsidizes the education of the kids in the classroom)
this was OUR choice--- I am certainly not complaining-------- But those of you whining about Union school teachers----wake up. If you don't like your kids education NOW----how bad do you think it's gonna be when your kids are being taught by school teachers who have to work Nights at walmart?
Union carpenters?---my father in-law was one---and it was a good living for him and his family for 40 plus years untill he retired. I would have been one myself---if I could have got in the union
quality of work? A Few years ago my parish built a new church building. The Diocese requires Union contractors----but a few exceptions are made for contractors who are parishoners of the church being built----we DO have to payt " prevailing wage" 'though.
Long story short---- I was perhaps the only non-union contractor on the project. I expected some "union-hassel"----but in fact the union carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc. treated me GREAT------went out of their way to help me---moiving stuff with the LULL etc.---and the finish work the Union carps did----well it exceeds ANYTHING I have seen done by non-union carps in new houses.( BTW---my kids go to a private school with some big-bucks families--- I have been in the " big-bucks houses"---the carpentry work in them isn't that great.
In closing---those of you who think that "the unions" somehow made american companies" non-competitive-"---------well you aren't thinking clearly.
I come from a historically VERY union area. My dad however had a salaried, non-union position at a Fortune 500 Co.---the Salaried folks had compensation packages that eclipsed the union rates----and yet the salaried folks constantly fretted that the Union rates would drive the company under. Of course SALARY would NEVER roll back THEIR pay packages---just bitch about the union.
Unions simply have NOT made us un-competitive world wide. What HAS made us un-competitive world wide is the american standard of living. Union pay rates are not the cause---just one of many symptoms---along with bloated management compensation etc.
Best wishes, Stephen
"Unions simply have NOT made us un-competitive world wide. What HAS made us un-competitive world wide is the american standard of living. Union pay rates are not the cause---just one of many symptoms---along with bloated management compensation etc."
Nothing more true has been written in this entire thread.
We've had a great 50+ year run in this country, ruling the world and extracting resources anywhere we want and paying damn near nothing for them. The results are clear--a car in every garage, along with a couple of other cars, a Harley, a boat, big screen TVs, computers, satellite dishes, nice clothes, furniture and plush carpet, good restaurants, food flown to us by jet, good medical care, great universities, 40 hour work weeks, vacations, the works.
We've been the envy of the planet. If you think that's going to last forever, think again. There are a billion Chinese and a bunch of Indians who all want the same things we've had. We're due to come down a notch, probably a big one.
I haven't read through the entire thread, so this has probably already been said, but many authorities (including those leading some US industries) feel that our lack of a national healthcare system is a major cause for our loss of competitiveness. Whether or not there's a union in place, the lack of national healthcare ends up costing businesses more because healthcare is simply more expensive than elsewhere and hence folks expect/demand to be paid more.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Excellent post, Hazlett.My wife is also a teacher. She got out after only a few years. Why? There's little future for a teacher these days. You have to absolutely love teaching to put up with the hours, the regulation, and the parents for the low wages you get out of it. She's now joining the Electrical Union.
Great post.
BTW, my five year old (new to big school) came home today from school....she's teaching me about Diwali, a Hindu holiday I had honestly never heard of), that's why we're online.....everyone learning....great recipes for sweet things, BTW. I feel pretty lucky she has the teacher she has.....all the public schol teachers I know also subsidize their classroom. So do I, as a matter of fact.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
DH worked as a Teamster for almost 30 years. The health benefits were wonderful. THEN, his company folded. He and we/family were left without any benefits. The union doesn't protect or help any employee left in the lurch because the company isn't paying to the union.
Our son was schooled as a union electrician. He always said he was told to work slower so the company could make more money, delaying the project. That bothered him.
He now works for a non-union company, they are so impressed with his knowledge being schooled through the union.
Unions are good and bad, take your pick.
Re: "On average the private schools operate on about 1/2 the dollars per kid as the public schools. And yet somehow they manage to teach the kids much better."You might want to look into this before using talk radio sound bites as a source of information.Public schools have a much greater burden than private schools. They can cherry pick the student body. Even those who are supposedly forced by law to take all comers have many mechanisms dedicated to keeping difficult to serve kids out. Disruptive and special needs kids are mostly, sometimes totally, steered right out the door.Public schools, by law, are required to provide essentially the same education to all the kids. They are the schools of last resort. Autistic, retarded, behaviorally difficult, wheelchair bound, hyperactive, violent, etcetera. All have to be served and efforts, resources, have to be tailored for each case. Every kid of every illegal alien has a mandated right to get a free education in their own language. Not many of those show up at private schools. Too often a small percentage of students use up the majority of the resources. The average kids get what little remains while the talented and easy to teach kids go to private schools.Also the level of testing and correction, academic, medical and psychological is much higher in public schools. Public schools also have course the private schools are not required to teach. Anger management, anti-abuse, anti-bully, anti-drug, etcetera. Lawmakers mandate it and the schools have to comply even if it takes time away from academics. For half a century lawmakers have added mandates without providing funding or time to get the job done.Also public schools are required, in many cases, to provide transportation and do it in a court observed racially neutral manner. Many private schools save vast amounts of money not running fleets of busses.Public schools are subject to a lot more record keeping and testing requirements. Every one of which eats up finding. No Child Left Behind is a good example. In most cases only part of the cost of the paperwork, testing and reduction of classroom size is covered. The remainder came out of already short funding for academics.Public schools are subject to higher regulation and observation. Private schools can set up mechanisms limiting the right to sue and giving teachers and administrators protection. Public schools are constant targets for litigation. Teachers cannot raise a hand even to protect themselves from armed and violent children. And at the same time the kids often cannot be sent home. Too many parents won't discipline the child but keeps a lawyer on speed dial if the school does.Many private schools, especially Catholic schools, have a steady supply of cheap labor. For centuries priests and nuns have worked for very low wages. Part of the poverty, charity, chastity deal. Now if we could just keep the priests hands off the children. So sure public schools are less efficient. They are turning lead into gold. Private schools get the gold and just polish it a bit.
Over and Over I hear this BS about private schools only accepting the best kids. This is simply NOT true.The Catholic grade schools in my area will accept anyone willing to follow the rules. In fact the Chicago Catholic School system has been having financial difficulties because they accept so many kids whos parents can not afford to pay the tuition. Our local Catholic school has kids from all races and social strata, bar none. By the way my kids do not attend a public school or a private school. I have taken the responsibility to teach them myself. Rather then wasting my time bitching and moaning about why the system sucks I have stepped up to the plate. That is the answer, in my opinion. Everyone needs to stop pointing the finger and take responsibility for your own kids.
mike... what do you want ? a medal ?
your home schooling makes as much sense for all the kids in the country as just having no formal system at all
your little universe is so small.......
once again.. the rugged individualist charges to the fore to save the country..
gimme a break...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,I think home schooling would be the worst possible avenue on a large scale. Conscientous parents *can* effectively teach their children, but there are a lot of obstacles.A lot of the parents our there cannot even teach their kids to stay away from drugs and other crime let alone teach them how to use algebra.
Edit- Am I the only one who is surprised this thread is not in the Tavern yet?Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Edited 11/28/2005 11:33 pm ET by JonBlakemore
i'm surprised that you're surprised....it's still somewhat maintaining a civil tone...sort of....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah, it's civil but seem to be for the most part off track.Maybe I've just misread what triggers the exodus to the Tavern by the hammers.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Mike,
you are forming your opinions without knowledge or aknowledgement of all the facts.
Many Catholic elementary schools DO accept large numbers of non-catholic kids from the neighborhood
however---the parish looks at that trend as an outreach program and an exercise in social justice---AND the parish subsidizes the school------SO the money IS being spent---it's just not reflected entirely in the tuition charged. A LOT of thge costs are being handled kind of "off the books"------- the parish owns the school building, the parish maintains the school building, the parish HEATS the school building---------
AND the teachers subsidize the students education by working substantially below the market-------- I believe when my wife started in the Catholic school system 8 or 9 years ago she started at something like $16,000/ year.
Do you think their is and endless supply of people willing to get college degrees---not to mention masters degrees---in order to start teaching at $16,000/ year in a public school ??????? guess again
At the highschool level---all this changes. Most are NOT supported by a parish---and the tuition reflects this----being about double that of the grade schools. Most of the kids in a catholic grade school----do not end up in a catholic high school---the cost is percieved as "too high"
so----the ones that DO end up in the catholic high school----are in effect CHERRY PICKED----that is---they come from the families MOST highly motivated to see that junior does his school work.
BTW---the catholic grade school where my wife teaches---recieves government money for textbooks, library books, reading and math tutors etc.--- Some how I doubt THOSE costs are being counted when folks are claming how cheaply the catholic schools can educate a kid-----------
Stephen
Thanks for the educational posts . Well done .
Seems like we get an education every time we come here to read and Ive learned from you and Lorn on this topic. Thank you.
Mike Smith actually pointed to the result if we didnt do somthing and that private school is not the answer what ever the cost because after all too many cant afford anything above essentials . Therefore public effort is needed .
I commend people like your wife and you for helping with the problem to make it better . I feel like if the world was full of people like you two there would not be a problem.
After reading I consider one problem may be not getting the word out and educating the public . If they dont realize there is a probem theres no one working on your solutions. Lots of people give money for lots of different things and even charge off charities . Im wondering if thats what the Catholic people are doing ? Are they giving to those schools to support them or are they using them more over for their own needs? Or both?
Tim
Tim
Tim,
I guess the first thing to consider ( and what Mike K overlooks) is that Catholic schools exist to pass on the faith, values and teaching of the Catholic church----that is the primary mission----and the reason my wife is more than willing to work at " below market rates".
a high quality education---is just a bonus---it's very real----but it's NOT the reason the Catholic School exists.
sooooo, for the general public to assume " if we had school vouchers I could send my kids to one of those catholic schools and free them from the marginal local public school"-------- well I think that would be misguided----and a bit of free loading besides. Basically---someone with that idea would be spongeing off of people like my wife and myself.
my kids are in high school so I don't immediately know what the tuition is currently at my wifes elementary school-------- but it is something like maybe $3500 for a parishoner, $5000 for a non parishoner and the highschool is currently up over $7000 a year.
All of the catholic schools I am aware of---have a school endowment----usually up over( well over) $1,000,000.--- the income from that is used in part,to keep the tuition artifically lower than the ACTUAL cost per student. That endowment is created by YEARS of fund raisers, donations, bequests etc---usually over decades. It's meant to assist the children of the parish---that is the children of active, participating parishoners. It's not meant to subsidize a non parishoner who just wants to keep his kid out of a public school.
Sometimes a neighboring parish that doesn't have a school---will work out an arangement with a parish that does have a school to educate the children of BOTH parishes.
The majority of catholic kids are NOT in catholic schools.
also ----the Catholic school system is not particularly effective at passing on it's faith and values------ My parents sent 6 kids through the catholic school system-------maybe 2 of those 6 are practicing catholics----and I am the only one to send MY kids through the same catholic school system. It's a privilege to do so---however I don't consider MYSELF to be a practising Catholic-----rather--- I consider myself to be an ineptly practising Buddhist. I do feel indebted to the catholic school system---because that's where I was first given the basics of buddhist concepts---in a catholic high school world religons class 25-30 years ago.------ I wanted to give my sons the same opportunities----if they end up as practicing catholics, buddhists, methodists---whatever---it's their conscience---and my priviledge to help them on their way.
at the highschool level---the endowment will usually be much larger---due largely from help by alumni over the years who appreciate the very real advantages of the catholic education they recieved-------- they know it gave them a head start on Med.school, law school, business, engineering etc.----and they are MORE likely to donate to their highschool---than to donate to their college !!!
I don't think any of us have a primary interest in attracting the general population---we are happy to accept them if they play by the catholic school rules--------- but we are primarily motivated to helping the children of our "own kind" LOL
Very best wishes, Stephen
Thanks again.
Tim
"Over and Over I hear this BS about private schools only accepting the best kids. This is simply NOT true."It's not about 'best kids'. It's about 'participating parents'."The Catholic grade schools in my area will accept anyone willing to follow the rules."And pay up...which will only be coming from parents actively involved."In fact the Chicago Catholic School system has been having financial difficulties because they accept so many kids whos parents can not afford to pay the tuition."Well, that and the kiddie molesting lawsuits. But that's another topic. ;o)"Our local Catholic school has kids from all races and social strata, bar none."Oh sure, but again race or economics aren't the issue...it's whether or not the parents are actively a part of the child's education. This has been repeated several times in this thread and seems to be the key point your glossing over."I have taken the responsibility to teach them myself. Rather then wasting my time bitching and moaning about why the system sucks I have stepped up to the plate. That is the answer, in my opinion. Everyone needs to stop pointing the finger and take responsibility for your own kids."Alas, I know and have grown up with home schooled children. As much as I like the idea, the results are a bit scary. Not that you are doing a bad job, it's just that well-rounded kids seem to be the exception rather than the rule when it comes to home schooling from my experiences. But I do commend your dedication.
<<Over and Over I hear this BS about private schools only accepting the best kids. This is simply NOT true.<<The Catholic grade schools in my area will accept anyone willing to follow the rules. In fact the Chicago Catholic School system has been having financial difficulties because they accept so many kids whos parents can not afford to pay the tuition.<<Our local Catholic school has kids from all races and social strata, bar none. The issue isn't race or even social strata. How many autistic kids are there? Or severe ADHD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, or Conduct disordered kids? Mentally retarded? Obsessive Compulsives? Cerebral Palsy? ...The point is, everyone of these kids have to be educated by the public schools. They can't pick and choose, and the cost of educating them is way above the cost for other kids.
OK, my 2 cents on the original topic:
Unions: great concept or ideal, essential in the formative years of industrialization- an institution to which we owe a great deal of our prosperity as a society. However, real unions have become far from ideal:
Restricted entry: unions should be forced to accept all qualified applicants who wanted to join and paid their dues. But some unions don't operate that way. Unfortunately, many unions are essentially "closed shops" that you must be voted into- you basically need to be related to them to gain access. These unions essentially act illegally in restraint of trade- no different than any other unregulated business monopoly.
Seniority rather than meritocracy: need I say more? I can't imagine a worse system for promoting innovation, competence and productivity. Though the upside may be good training and bennies for the membership, the downside can often be the protection of slack-@ssed do-nothings who keep their heads down long enough to gain seniority and then are impossible to remove. As an example, my wife was dressing actors AND doing all the costume repairs on a major theatrical production as a "permit class" worker for one of the local performing arts unions- she's got a university degree in costume studies. After eight months, she was "bumped" from her job by a union member who couldn't sew a stitch.
"Work differentiation": a sensible concept gone haywire in application, worse in some union environments than in others but an utter abomination on some sites. I just got off a union site where you needed to get a carp to open a crate, a millwright to sling the load in the crate, and a crane operator to push the buttons on the little shop overhead crane. If you wanted anything done in a timely fashion you needed four trades on hand, three with fingers up their b*tts while one worked- all because of this assinine notion of work differentiation. In our non-union shop, anybody can open a crate, and anybody with training can operate our overhead cranes, regardless of their trade. We do more work in far less time than a comparable union shop.
Adversarial rather than collaborative work model: in our company, all workers have ownership and derive a significant fraction of their compensation from the before-tax profits of the company. There's no "us versus them" attitude between staff and management or between employees and shareholders because their interests are directly aligned- or they're the same person!
Unions are essential any time there's a monopoly. If there's only one viable employer (i.e. for public employees like teachers), employees need to bargain collectively or they're at severe risk of exploitation. But in a democratic capitalist multi- employer marketplace with the rule of law and some labour regulatory standards, unions are far less necessary. However, with or without unions, employees here in the West can't compete on an even footing with an undemocratic oligarchy without the rule of law and where human rights are brutally repressed (i.e. China)...the whole point may be moot. Unionized or not, manufacturing jobs are leaving North America en masse because the so-called "global economy" is anything but a free and fair market.
On the topic of taxation and the payment of teachers: someone here said that "property tax is the most fair of the unfair taxes". In practice, that's crap. Here in Canada's major cities, rental properties are assessed higher property taxes than owned properties, and these taxes are paid ultimately by renters. Renters generally are the lowest socioeconomic class and yet they pay a higher proportion of property taxes than those who own homes.
Education is a social benefit and should be paid for by all citizens in proportion to their ability to pay. Income taxes work better than property or payroll taxes to accomplish this.
The same goes for funding welfare, social housing and health care. Funding healthcare out of payroll taxes is the reason GM spends more money on health benefits for its workers than it pays for steel.
When I was in college I had a coop job (alternated school and work) at Allis-Chammers for one of the periods.The engineer that I was working with mentioned how they had recently moved offices and he needed some shelves so he go some wood and then a saw to cut it and the saw was dull so it sharpened it.I think in the end he got complaints from 3 unions and he still did not have his shelves.
Re: "The people with kids should pay the bill."A laudable sentiment but it sidesteps the contradictions inherent in the straight free market model and the long standing understanding that some things should be provided independent of ability to pay. You also touch of one of the most charged of all issues, local, domestic and international demographics.The demographics are that the people having the most kids are exactly the people who have least ability to support them. This is true both by state, within the US and internationally.How you square that circle has been a question for thousands of years without any fitting solution being found. The deeper you get into it the more horrific and absurd the actual mechanisms needed to deal with the situation becomes. Mostly, outside some programs like the Chinese tried and failed at, the reaction has been to 'let it ride'.Within the context of schooling, the lightest of the related topics, how do you extract payment form people who have more children than money? How do you extract payment from someone who has few or no resources to cover the needs of the children they have produced? If payment is not made do you boot the kids from school? A demographic situation where there is a good proportion of people with no education would pretty much bury any plans for national advancement. Would the US be better off if it looked more like Bangladesh? Not to say we are not seeing some of this dynamic already with youths who can't effectively read, perform basic math or demonstrate elementary use of logic simply because the schools were wildly underfunded and ill staffed. I have had helpers and coworkers who couldn't read the simple instructions telling them how to use a product. Excluding more children from school would not seem to do anything but make that situation worse.So you have people popping out kids they can't support. Do you prevent the adults from having them? Maybe allow a set number and then remove the option? How far do you take it? Forced sterilization, abortion, infanticide? In the early part of the century most major cities had large complexes of overcrowded orphanages, gangs of disenfranchised youths and daily abandonment of infants at street corners, dumps and churches. Is it back to the future?
And if by some miraculous method this problem is solved where does the needed labor come from? Import labor was a large part of the fall of Rome and Kuwait. As Abernathy in her book: "Population Politics" points out the US is financing the unsustainable birth rate within South America. The ability to send men up north to keep a large family in Mexico alive keeps Mexico from facing its inability to control its own birth rate. Which keeps their population growing. Which motivates more to go north. Which ... You get the idea.Guest workers can lack loyalty and breed dependency. After the Iraqi invasion the Kuwaitis found out it is hard to have an effective underground resistance when the majority of native Kuwaitis didn't know how the screw in a light bulb. Too long Indian and Palestinian workers had done virtually all manual labor. And why would the Arab world be interested in solving the conflict between Israeli and Palestinian when overcrowded and destitute Palestinians make such pliant and cheap labor. Import labor is always tricky and the more you depend on it the more tricky it becomes. The Spartans, at least on one level, diffused their identity until they ceased to exist as a nationality. Ideally the majority of the next generation of workers would come from within the nation and from the people with wealth enough to afford to support children. Getting to that is a trick. The middle and upper classes don't want children. If they did, seeing as that they have the resources, they would have them. Even outside of the mess and bother of breeding, pregnancy and childbirth the well off don't seem to want to even adopt kids.You could pay people to have kids, perhaps a nice baby farm, Hitler went that way with poor results. Fact is for all the vaunted Arian virility and stamina, even with payment for having children, the average birth rate never even got to two per couple, slightly below replacement levels.And who pays to have the kids. Taxing the poor so the middle and upper classes isn't going to get you far. So you tax the middle and upper class to get the middle and upper classes to have kids? Take their money and give it back for children? Without a steady supply of kids there is going to be a shortage of people young enough to believe running into machinegun fire is a good idea. The military will suffer. Hard to be military power without cannon fodder. Perhaps we can hire mercenaries?Of course we are already doing that to obscure real casualty rates in Iraq. Look where it got Sparta, Rome, Germany, Britain, France. They to, just before their fall, had a large part of their military being non-native. Algerians trained by France as part of colonial or Foreign Legion forces and who fraught in Vietnam became leaders in the Algerian uprising a few years later. American financed, trained and organized mercenaries, the Mujahadine, reformed once the Russians left Afghanistan to become Al Queda. One of their leaders, trained and supplied by the US, became famous, Osama Ben Ladin. You might have heard of him. The deeper you dig in this the more you find and the uglier it looks. The interactions of demographics with politics and power is like that. We play the game with fine ideals and grand slogans like: Individual responsibly, Pay to play, Free markets will provide, Universal education, No child left behind, America love it or leave it, America the melting pot, Compassionate conservatism, The American century and America the Superpower. But in the end we face an issue which has never been adequately addressed. To date the US has been able to avoid the worse of this issue. We have had land, resources, money, a large technological lead, the protection of oceans and power. No nation has effectively handled the effects of demographic shift and differentials in power, wealth and birth rates. Even at the state level differentials cause resentment and conflicts. And educating the children is just he loose yarn hanging from a very large sweater.
I didnt read your post , I studied it .
You make an honest stab at it but no cigar just like our goverment.
Im a breeder and Ill be direct about it .
Basically you breed mates to gether that have desireable traits first and now they have been using DNA . World champion race horses and grand champion bulls dont happen by chance anymore. Some luck yes but when a dna tested colt brings 1 million dollars chance is almost eliminated. Luck is needed to win in that group of competition.
I read an exaustive long study ran for several years on a large kennel of dogs. Ill save you many boring points but will bring one to light that your post reminds me of tonight.
Dogs were grouped and tested but got put in the groups they were similar with such as barking dogs . I call it bitching . All the bitches were grouped that couldnt keep their mouth shut . Oh yea , I did hear of that man one time but what he did escapes me. <G>
To the point ;
They had many dogs that figgured out ways to escape . Some dogs jumped , climbed , ate wire, etc. Many ways were noted and some dogs found more than one way to escape. Since money was a problem those dogs were killed . When several years had expired tests revealed thay had killed the smartest dogs!
As you say in your post the middle class and rich are less interested in kids . If they wanted them they would of course have them but are educated about how not to accidently. More over they are goal reachers and problem solvers. In other words they are winners in our system. Those pups are being snuffed out .
Meanwhile the rich and middle class replace them selves from parents that couldnt figgue out how to survive themselves.
Then we hire teachers that have a college education that according to some here will go to work for less than an apprentice carpenter. Some want to blame the system for paying that amount . Paying more would secure the same person. But have you ever thought how they insult themselves by accepting those postions? They need a sign across there foreheads so we can reognize them quickly. The profession also draws business failures . If ya cant make it in business , you can teach kids that came from parents that couldnt either.
Thats what your well thought out answer means to me . We are paying for more breeding from the same for our future .
But you didnt try to color up the future either.
And by the way , I dont have a cigar and an answer either .
Tim
Re: "I didnt read your post , I studied it ."With all due respect. You should have read it instead of studying it.Come on, its a quick one minute read. Didn't actually take long to write. Took all of perhaps twenty minutes while watching TV and including a bathroom break. Pretty relaxed recreational writing. Eugenics wasn't part of my message. The genetic differences between the classes is, in any practical sense, nil. Medical science and non competition for mates has eliminated natural genetic adaptation. Anyone wishing to breed can. Good and bad. For better or worse. Of course a wide genetic base generally increases species survivability. Some folks were immune to bubonic plague so who knows who survives the next plague. Eugenics is counterproductive in that we are so poor at predicting future needs and the ideal traits. You focus your efforts in one direction and diversity decreases. Nature also, it seems, seldom agrees with our aesthetics choices and assumptions. We breed all sorts of fancy dogs but, with very few exceptions, the unremarkable, mid-sized, short haired mutts are the ones which survive outside human pampering. They are more genetically well rounded.
You say it doesnt matter but it does whether you want to reconize it ot not.
"The genetic differences between the classes is, in any practical sense, nil. "
Wrong . With every cross sets up its own genetics. With every cross the dominant genes save those triats that are established. I can understand that you dont want to be tied to evolution but mama needs to inform you theres no Santa either.
Tim
The reason I studied your post regardless how long or how easy it was for you to write , you stabbed it . For my understanding it best explained it . Milk bones to you.
To me its kinda like the pregnant daughter. You have a responsibility to step up to the plate since both are flesh and blood . Although the Father didnt stand , you have to. Yes, that's harsh, but its reality. Im raising one my self. Which moves us to the children which are out successors. Its up to us to give them a fair running chance if they are to run this country. They will be entrusted with the job no matter what we do or dont do. Yes it makes sense we pass off the job as smoothly as we can and hopefully leave the deal in good shape which is happening right now but what ever . Everyone loves their kids and wants the best for them so the decision should come natural. Yes its the thing to do.
In recap the short time I had in city government helped me understand a little more what makes the wheels turn. Everyone there wants a piece of the pie and they are trying to cut into it . Mostly politics are selfish endeavors to pad their own pockets if they can and mostly unions are the same as any other business . When a town or a state lauds building they site jobs and growth. That's a small part of it . What they really have in their sites is the annual taxes that building will pay out for years to come in government salaries and such like equipment that's needed . Oh more government buildings get built and remodeled or updated from such money. Then of course if a business has employees there's more support to all government .
Ill make another post before I get trunacated.
Tim
Edited 11/28/2005 7:04 pm by Mooney
Mainly what you talk about is the endless problem that has never been properly addressed but in my words weve been lucky to have let it slide by since getting right back to one of your quotes we have been wealthy enough and have been in power for it to stand with out urgent need to address it properly.
Now to leave you post.
Things arent looking good and everyone here knows it so Ill save the type and the hype.
Lets get some stuff straight . The goverment has supplemented growing families I suppose for that exact reason. They get child credits , welfare in several ways that I know , the homestead bill and many other programs. Even this small town recognizes family growth and supports it. City goverment and county puts forth money for children. Of course they are doing it with our money but what ever. Even our light and water company build a huge civics center thats really for the kids with two full basketball courts inside. There are several buildings owned by the city and county that are used strickly for kids. These kids dont have to look for wholesome activities. Of course they are investing in the future of the town and are trying to get a hold on those kids before they make decisions to leave. I understand fully well the investment idea.
When a commercial building is built it serves the kids from taxes if nothing else. Since there are so many give away programs , the real support comes from the commercial and industrial avenues. Those are the money players along with property owners in general. The industries too give for families to stay and raise their kids in hopes they will have a labor pool to draw from. Our area doesnt pay very much money so the hold is the family setting provided by all playing the game. A good time is had by all is the theme. A wonderfull place to raise your kids and have a family but we dont pay enough , but so what .
Tim
Now the only thing left is how we distribute those funds and how we choose to direct payments. How we make payments chooses who pays how and when.
With the popular vote , the working class should decide and its right down their alley the way it is so far. The working class hold the children.
Chess game over.
Tim
Curious about a few things here.If you rent to a family with four kids, do you cahrge more than for renting to a old couple with no kids?If the system were to be changed so that the parents pay the schiool bill instead of the property owners, then the taxes fgo down, do you reduce the rents?and FYI -
Here, the school tax works out to about 50% of the property tax. how much is it really there?and
Bush didn't lie or bully
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"If you rent to a family with four kids, do you cahrge more than for renting to a old couple with no kids?"
I wont rent to a family with four kids . Im not interrested . Thats the bottom of the barrell tennants considering profitablility. I take applications and choose from those . I can do better than that on my worst day. I know you are not interrested but you opened up discussion. All renters fall in scales . Theres merit and fault systems. Professional singles are leaders along with married double professionals with out children. Then we get deeper and deeper, but 4 children is near the bottom of what I want . Ill explain why; Most of the time in that arrangement there is a serious lack of money. Most people who are successfull own their own house so we must pick from ones that dont . Those families put a heavy strain on the whole house . Think about it if you never have done it . The commode flushes that many more times , the bathtub gets worn out quicker and kids pull and tug on faucets. They cause more damage than adults by far . You shoulda been with me on the last twenty calls to unstop a sewer that took me away from my family to find a rubber glove or toy in the system. If I had wanted to smell other peoples sewer I would have became a plumber.
The floor covering and the kitchen get hit the worst and its just not worth it . Ive been there and done it .
Curious about a few things here.
If you rent to a family with four kids, do you cahrge more than for renting to a old couple with no kids?
If the system were to be changed so that the parents pay the schiool bill instead of the property owners, then the taxes fgo down, do you reduce the rents?
I dont get paid for taxes now . No where in any lease blank is there a charge for taxes . The owner pays the taxes and doesnt legally recover them as such. That boat doesnt hold water.
If you happen to make more profit than expected do you return it to the client? Dont make it sound like its a bad thing to make money.
Piffin, Im really pizzed over this because it really does suck. You see the elderly dont make any money except on CDS and such if they have them. Many here live on social security and pay those damn high property taxes. They just keep going up.
We have 90 year old people paying for the schol system because they happen to own a small 2 bedrom house in a 100 yr old addition drawing SS trying to stay alive when that family with four kids arent even paying that share . They should be paying four times the share . Its not fair .
Tim
I know wheere you are coming from and am not arguing, but bringing things out in the open. One thing that really suprises me though is your claim that you don't include taxes in the rent payment. If so, that makes you far less of a businessman than I geve you credit for. In any sucessfull business, the owner/manager has to assess all his costs and include them in his formula for pricing and for growth. If you are paying for overhead costs and not calculating for them, you are aming a mistakeOTOH, there are tax adjustments like depreciation, repairs, deductable interests, and value impacts like appreciation that you mauy or may not be calculating in either.As to the thing about who pays for kid's education, I'd make the point that it is in the best interest of society to have an educated populace. So it is the job of society in general to pay for it. I won't argue that property tax is the way to do that, and I don't think the public education system we have is doing half the job iut should, because it sidetracks onto so many other things instead of education, but that is not necessarily the unjions fault.Don't get me wrong, I'm not a union man, but I try to get things assigned in their proper place and make the right connections. You can bet that if I was a landlord, and my property taxes went up 60% I would add a coresponding amt to the rents I charged. IOW,if I charged $600/month and my prop tax on that house came to $100/month and went up 60% I would up the rent to $660.
Same as if the insurance went up that much or if I were including utilities on an apartment and they went up. The user is going to pay the freight. If you are not incluiding tax in your rent, maybe that is why you are so flaming mad.Personally, I'd rather see you calm down. Nobody on this forum is going to raise or lower your taxes regardless what they think of unions. And if you get pissed enough to end up back in the hospital, we end up missing a tooth on the main gear here.
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Yes , I know when I buy a property what my costs are . Dan T and I have stressed over and over that a property first has to clear mortgage payments , taxes and insurance. . then profits.
Increasing insurance and taxes does not have an item line to charge the tennant directly. So legally they dont pay taxes , I do. Of course I figgure paying them and I do but they dont go down to the court house and pay them and its not in their name so legally they do not pay them. Id be happy if that law changed.
You seem to miss the point . Bob and I are being raped here while John with four kids and Helio are getting off scott free.
Did you miss the part about our elementry exploding in population 30 percent all spanish. Did you happen to read it that time ? Tell me who you think should pay for that ? We just got though building a 17 million dollar elementry school we would not have needed or we could have paid for if the money wasnt being sent back to Mexico to support their families there. Thats facts. Not really pretty but a close up look. They dont pay property taxes normally as they sleep 20 at a time in rent houses and change shifts the next 8 hours paying single rents until the landlord says enough . Many go on getting by with it . I counted 12 cars in the front of one of my rentals and I crashed the door at 6am . They are visiting ,visiting , visiting I was told . From now on all the visiting stops. Get out . People walked from that 3 bedroom house for 30 minutes it seemed. There were only two on the lease . All other were tresspassing . I called the law up to witness it . Thats what they "do" piffin. They work all the time and save their money by screwing lanlords to sent money to their families in Mexico.
I can bat insults back all day with facts on this subject.
Tim
This is a nation of immigrants it has been for hundreds of years. Unless your a full blood American Indian at some point in time somebody was complaining just as much about your ancestors as you are about the immigrants your renting to.
If you don't like the business your in do what you told the other guy to do - stop complainin and don't let the door hit you.
hahahaha
Thats good . I did it . I evicted them. LOL.
Its not their fault as you keep missing the point which now Im suspecting you to be either a teacher or married to one . Or your Mother or Father , I dont really care. Mebbe you are Spanish. It doesnt matter for the last time who you are .
Its the system one more time not personal. The system allows it and they get by with it but it should be addressed. All of it needs to be addressed.
We could do a fairer job charging exta sales taxes. That still doesnt get to fair , but it would be better than what we have now.
While you are wasting your time why dont you come up with a fair plan ?
Im working on it .
Tim
I've tried to come up with a plan, but the problem I run into is I have plenty of ideas - just not any good ideas. lol
If insuilts is what you want, I'll let the others give them to you. I wasn't doing any opf that. I thought we weree having a discussion. You're in a bad mood tonight Tim. I'll let it go.
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"Don't get me wrong, I'm not a union man, but I try to get things assigned in their proper place and make the right connections. You can bet that if I was a landlord, and my property taxes went up 60% I would add a corresponding amt to the rents I charged. IOW,if I charged $600/month and my prop tax on that house came to $100/month and went up 60% I would up the rent to $660.Same as if the insurance went up that much or if I were including utilities on an apartment and they went up. The user is going to pay the freight. If you are not incluiding tax in your rent, maybe that is why you are so flaming mad."
You know when I kept hearing the Mich news and now it hits with GM putting 30,000 out of jobs , I kept thinking about my very small disagreement with you and Mike. Your answer as has always been is to push the charges to the consumer. Pile it on .
Im here to tell you we cant take any more at least in the South. We are being taxed to death as the expression goes because sucide over it is up. Gasoline has already broke my tennants. The couple I evicted make 8 dollars an hour and they were broke. They had been with me for 1 1/2 years with out ever being late with 3 kids in tow. She works in a town across the river and the gas bill killed her money as she drives for 45 minutes one way. Gas went to 325 but she was served an eviction notice when it was 3.00. They cant pay 60 more dollars . They couldnt even pay half their rent . There was nothing for me to work with and BTW, Im working with all my tennants . Most of the time , most of them are late. This last month all were late pay because the 1st fell off a pay day. Thats how close they live .
Its time to put a stop to it as its went far enough. It it doesnt stop we are heading for a depression.
Tim
Oh yea, the thing about Bush.
Really I went easy on him because hes really a murderer.
So be it but Ive thought more about all the churches that sponsored him and now they have a guy like Hertz did.
I dont understand where Christians can stomach to back him any longer. I guess thats why you are in the minority now.
I also feel like he lied to us but he would say he had incorrect information. If you believe that lie its you that sleeps with it .
Tim
"If the system were to be changed so that the parents pay the schiool bill instead of the property owners, then the taxes fgo down, do you reduce the rents?"Ths issue is a good educational system benefits all, so all should contribute. I agree that the property tax tie-in is not working...especially as we as a society are increasingly segregated along socio-economic lines. "Bush didn't lie or bully"Let's not turn this thread into a debate on the term 'lie' ;o)
"How is it fair taxing property for the school system?"On paper, it can appear fair. ;o)"I think its taxing the middle class and the rich when the poor cant pay their part."Well, it's definitely a tax on the middle class. Not so much on the rich. And the poor can't pay their part because they're poor. So, you ain't going to gain anything there anyways."Why cant they pay their part since they are the heavy hitters to the problem?"Uh, because they are poor? Uneducated? Working #### jobs in non-union shops? No universal health care coverage? Ya know, even if one hates the poor, even if they are all lazy bastards just milking the system, you can't blame the children. We live in a fairly advanced and insanely wealthy society and there's absolutely no reason why we should punish children. Not to mention that the better you take care of children WHILE THEY ARE CHILDREN, the less they are a burden to society in adulthood. But we're americans. We're short term thinkers. We rarely plan for the big picture. ;o)Finally, for the record, poor children aren't a drain on the system anymore than the system is a drain on them. Live in a poor neighborhood? Well, lucky you...you get to go to a poor underfunded school. It's a nasty cycle. "What about 20 percent sales tax across the board? Would that suit you? Everyone pays the same amount they spend."There really isn't any 'fair' tax.The problem with a flat tax is that it puts an unfair burdern on the poor, as almost 100% of their spending on necessities is taxed, while a rich person, perhaps only 5%. (hence the concept of the luxury tax)"I dont think it was meant for all to agree for we never have and it doesnt look like we ever will ."Very true. ;o)"Thats just BS so ignore me .Listen to your president instead."And least you (and those in here) are open to a discussion. Bush doesn't play like that. ;o)
Since you were copying my posts.
If you want to call these people the poor then ok but first we should look at what is poor . Thats a good question. Where does the threshold of middle class start ?
Should there be a "working class " between poor amd middle? Or which are they?
Really what I call really poor doesnt make a dent in it anyway because yall pay their living with your income taxes.
Tim
We debate and debate, but in reality, 100 years ago, 50, 25, even today property is the given standard for wealth in this country.
Bigger House = Bigger Money
So if I have one house, and you own 21, you should pay more. Makes sense to me.
Sales Tax, then you would still own more than me, and possible spend less than me with 3 kids and a wife. Oh, and I didn't write off any of my Rental Property Expenses. Sales taxes screw the little guys and help out the entrepreneur business/property owners like you.
I figgured a teacher /father would come up with a way to suit him. <G>
It didnt take you long to figgure like I did that the families would spend more money. Sometimes I just cant sell a deal even at give away prices .
You know I have to keep trying ,..
" Sales taxes screw the little guys and help out the entrepreneur business/property owners like you"
Why in the H^ll do you think I played that card?
"Oh, and I didn't write off any of my Rental Property Expenses."
I wasnt discussing my advantages. I can see you dont want me to win.
So when it comes right down to it your views are tainted.
In reality property taxes have nothing to do with school taxes . We should be paying school taxes then , not covering up the issue . What does school kids have to do with wealth? How did you come up with the deduction that I owe for your kids education? . Do you think a Father is responsible for his children or not? Fess up.
Tim
Edited 11/28/2005 10:48 am by Mooney
I think an educated society is responsible for ALL its children. Not just the Fathers(or Mothers). It is a right given to us by the all knowing government.
Property tax is the most FAIR of all Unfair taxes. Doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it wrong either. Around here property tax is synonymous with school tax. You have more home/land/property means that typically you have more means and money. So you pay in more to support our broken, lazy school system than say, someone who rents from you. Even though you pass the taxes on it's still money out of your pocket. But at least you got a free appropriate education because you can read and write, and even do a little arithmetic.
"Oh, and I didn't write off any of my Rental Property Expenses."That is stupid.And you will find out how bad it is when you sell a rental properly thatn will have to pay a recapture tax on the depreciation that you should have taken, but didn't.
Bill,
I don't have any rental property. Mooney does, but thanks for the compliment. I have an innate understanding of this argument, because I work with a teacher who is also a land/slumlord in Allentown, PA. And how easy it is to cheat the tax system when you are a landlord.
Ok,
Now I'm confused! you know a slumlord in Allentown PA who is actually keeping his head above water? Maybe you could steal his secret and write a book.
Robert,
He and his wife are making a killing, the Charlton Sheats way. No shid. He buys multi units, and does as little as possible. He also is big into HUD and Government Assistance. Wife does the paperwork, and he and Dad do the repairs.
He figures two to three more years teaching. Wife is already in it full time. He's got 13 years in teching, and a healthy pay. But buy with nothing down is the family motto.
Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. I live just west of Allentown.
Prices have risen fast enough to outpace rents. For example, If I were to buy a house on my street I could not rent it for enough to cover the Mortgage. Sad, but true and it's happening in plenty of neighborhoods around.
I recently looked at a two bedroom house just East of Cedar crest Blvd and North of Tilghman for $329K with $8K in property taxes. I would be lucky to get $1400 a month for it.
HUD and section 8 stuff looks very enticing. It shouldn't be around here. The way Pennsylvania law is written, one bad section 8 tenant and the profit from three units for a full year could evaporate.
I have an relative who was a big Carlton Sheats type investor. From multi Millionaire on paper, to Bankrupt and pennyless in less than two months.
And none of that address the tax issues of rental property. Lots of people think you can do all kinds of magic like depreciate the property to Zero value and other such nonsense. It isn't exactly that easy and I've seen more than one "No money down" guy have the IRS eat his free lunch.
If you friend had a clue he would stick out the teaching a little longer. NOt sure what school district you guys are in but my wife's aunt retired from Parkland and her life is rather comfortable these days. Having seen her pension check I wouldn't be willing to walk away from that for some "No money down" scam I learned from late night T.V.
Not that you can't make money in realestate in the Lehigh Valley, I have, but the Sheats method is short term at best.
Robert,
He and I taught together in East Stroudsburg, and he lived in Tannersville. He looked for multi unit buildings, and looked for buildings that were already generating income. So far he has been lucky. He screens the hell out of the tenants, and work with HUD very closely. If they have a Parole Officer, he uses them to his advantage.
Its not a winner for everone, but its working for them so far. He got burned by a non disclosure on a temrmite infestation, but sued the seller and made out on the deal.
Its not a gig I would ever want...
Even if it payed twice what he tells me...
I sure wouldn't bet my future on it. Ironically i just had my house appraised today for a Home Equity Loan. I had a choice of three Appraisers but all wanted ceertified funds up front. No personal checks. Seems they have a rash of people not being happy with the number they are getting and stopping payment and claiming the appraiser doesn't know his job
I joined the carpenter's union when I was 19, and was a member for 6 years. One of the first things I was told was that if you wanted a job, just drop by the hall and have a visit with the B.A., but if you REALLY want a job, be sure and bring a bottle of his favorite liqour with you. Talk about a "buddy system." The B.A.'s slacker brother-in-law was always working, you could bet on that. Or at least he was on a payroll. I really got sick of hearing all the guys complain about how they couldn't survive if we didn't get at least so much on the next contract, while they drove new trucks and fished out of new boats. Then I became a job steward. It's a sad thing to hear grown men cry about not being treated fairly. I got sick of all the belly-aching because someone wanted them to do a little work. I remember once when I was working on an addition at a brewery. An electrician working next to me asked me if I would mind climbing to the top of his ladder and tying it off for him, as he had high blood pressure and got dizzy climbing that high. Of course I shot up there and tied it off for him. As you might guess, it created a huge stink because a carpenter was doing electical work. Good grief.On another large job, I arrived at work one morning to find one man with a sign had shut down the entire job. One man, with a sign that said, "The Austin Company is unfair to me." It was a couple of hours before anyone went to work.Those are just a couple of things that popped inot my head. I'm sure I could remember some even better stories if I thought about it. My opinion of unions is pretty much the same as yours, robert.
Allen in Boulder Creek
I wasn't the one who brought Bush into this discussion when he has no connection to it, at least not in that context.I trhink you totally misunderststand the connection between the companies you mention and profits fopr sharehpolders and hopw they treat customers and employees.The do treat emploeees good and customers likewise, simpley because it makes for a good company with a good image that attracts more good employees and good customers. But the bottom lione is what matters. If a company is founded and managed on the premise that the employees will be treated well first and profits be damned, that company has already written its own eulogy!Maybe you only go to work because you enjoy being there, but the vast majority of people do it because they are motivated atleast in oart by the moneySame way with corporations. They are formed for the pourpose of making a profit for the owners who put their capital at risk.
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"But the bottom lione is what matters. If a company is founded and managed on the premise that the employees will be treated well first and profits be damned, that company has already written its own eulogy!"There's a misconception that paying employess well means you can't make a profit. Again, they are not mutually exclusive concepts.
I think the one thing that has yet to be mentioned is the regulation that US businesses face. Take a steel mill for example: they are required to add "scrubbers" to all exhaust stacks to control emisions at great costs, they have OSHA requirements to meet, they have basic human rights to meet, they have to meet labor requirements we take for granted like 8 hour workday, overtime regulations, employment taxes, etc.,
The regulation is never ending its layer upon layer of costs. Now how is this company suppose to compete with the children in the factorys of Taiwan. Union or no union I just dont think the wages represent the costs that are hurting our employers.
Now lets take this personally. If we eliminate all these jobs that pay 35k or better who will pay for our services? I dont think ive ever done a job for someone who makes less than that. What do you expect people to do for a living? Will everyone go to college and get a white collar job? Who would build our homes and buildings? Mexicans? What happens when they start to get educations? Who fills that gap then?
I think there is enough money for the majority of people to make a living wage with a reasonable effort on their part and I beleive that is what the unions are trying to capitalize on for our benefit. Have they made mistakes? Sure they are run by people just like everything else. But they level the playing field for the working man. I also think its a very rare circumstance where a union has forced a strike at a time when it knows that its actions will ruin a company. I think it is more likely that the company has operated unethically and backed the union and its membership into a corner.
Justin Tischer
Here, the problem is more with state mandates - unfunded - than with the teachers union except for certain political proclivities they have.i.e. The state has rtequired that every school system have a principle and a superintendent. Those salaries run around 70-100k EACH. Wanna guess how many rural school systems can afford that for somebody to sit and file state reports all day when they aren't5 running off to seminars about how to file reports Teachers pay -
A starting teacher just out of school wioll make a buit less than a carp helper here, but the pay scale is established based on degrees ( a master's gets a pretty good paycheck) and years of experience, so a fifteen year veteren with a masters will make more than a Principle will and more than I do.So it's all pretty relative. Some of the bigger complainers are at the top of the pay scale and some of the most dedicated ones are jsut cutting their eye-teeth on the childrens skulls
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Keep your neigborhood kids home for a week and teach em how to read, write, add and subtract, and toss in a little trades and some music appreciation.
Let me know how it goes.Not meant for Dave, Sorry.
Edited 11/27/2005 7:40 pm ET by try50772
You can come trade you job for mine any day, I'll be happy to swap. The hours are not set, and my pay is based on 187 days , not 8 months. I get my money for a job, and I don't get paid to sit on my azz all summer, nor do I spend time sitting on it when I'm at work. Trust me almost every horror client you guys bitch about has at least one little angel in school...
I've really enjoyed this disscussion so far, but as a teacher, this is BS. My union get my benifits, and my families paid. I appreciate it, but I also expect it. Where do you move up as a teacher? Start your own school? Seriously, its a one way dead end job from day one. Without the union and tenure many good techers would be let go to lower the bottom line and free up some loose cash for a Football Field.
Whew, Im getting ready to take this to the Tavern.
"My union get my benifits,"
Now you sound like any other teacher Ive heard . You are dead wrong . Your benifits come from those sweeties families . They pay your bills, the union doesnt .
Tim
Actually, I work for my benifits that are bargained for by my union. And I deserve more.
"And I deserve more."
Then get a better job and dont let the door hit you in the butt . But quit bitchin about it . Do somthing about it . Be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
Tim
tim.. ain't it about time you ran for local office ?
i mean.. most communities i know of have an elderly exemption on part of the property tax..
hit 65 , you go down to the town hall and register, the exemption shows up as a credit on the tax bill..
same as my veteran's exemption, same as the volunteer ambulance corps & the fire department..
seems like your community is behind the times in taking care of the less fortunate and the volunteers that help keep the tax rate down..
heck, we're gonna help elect the next governor of Ohio, i don't see why we can't help elect you to mayor of your town ............ Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
There is no exemptions except what was already given years a go which is the 300 dollar tax credit that applies to only one home . In other words everyone that owns a home gets a 300 dollar tax credit . I only get one tax credit for my personal home . I pay full price for all other properties.
So what happened was that the goverment started pulling their help out . As Fetus would say, "dont ya see doc"? Bush said he was helping the people by doing it but actually he screwed the schools along with other goverment programs. The schools come along and ours threaten to close the doors and they nearly do! The supreme court orders this state to make it up from state and local funds . The governor says local not me , I dont have it either . So the end result is near doubleing property taxes . Well that puts 90 year old Bob in a crisis by doubleing his taxes and me that owns multiple properties getting double taxed with out any breaks while everyone enjoys the 300 dollar tax break which was really taken away. Thats right , they lost it here becuse their tax raises have surpassed the three hunded dollars! So that tax credit is really history in five years. Bush giveth the people and the state taketh away. Now the school systems have large surpluses. Time to give out raises and long term contracts so it wont be long before they will be bitching they are broke all over again.
Tim
How come when teachers complain about the good deal they have it's called bitchin? But when you complain about all the property taxes you feel your paying it sounds like bitchin to me.{your tenants are really paying it you just shuffle the $ from their rent checks to the local property tax collector.}
To buy these houses did you pay all cash for them or did you borrow $ from the bank? Banks are regulated by the Federal gov't. So my tax dollars & your tenants tax $ are being used to pay a federal agency to make sure the $ you borrowed from the bank is doing the right thing by you. According to your theory you should be paying that $ -not me or your tenants. If you borrowed the $ from a private source & you had a legal document you also used my tax $ because the document is backed by the courts & my $ is paying for that.
It's called the common good. No man is an island.
You miss the whole point entirely.
Are you a teacher too?
I already answerd your post when I answered Piffin.
Tim
I'm a carpenter in a powerhouse - the teachers by me have a great gig - I know I have complaints with them & I have complaints with my job. I think no matter what situation some people are in they have a gripe. The thing is the issues are neither black or white. The union issue is a tough one, the tax issue is thorny - and I know I ain't allways right - I just like to argue & disagree sometimes so don't think I believe I'm allways right.
Mickus, I hope you aren't a debate teacher.
That was one of the most awful arguments ever presented in the BT forum. I'm awarding you two free milkbones for the honor of being put in the BT hall of Fame.
blue
Thank you for your endorsement - but I have barely scraped the surface of completely off the wall arguments. I got ideas - I just need better ideas or an editor.
Aahhh, where to begin.....
I am a landlord, just like you. Unlike you I have also been a teacher.
Your point about school taxes being unfair to you and landlords like you is bull. You complained that some of those above were making this personal and that is exactly what you are doing. This is not an unfair tax levied on you, it is levied on all land owners and it is........ready for this revelation?............a business expense.
That is all it is. If your taxes go up, you pass it on to to the tennants. Currently I have had a few quotes that I lost some profit on because prices on materials increased rapidly and I had to honor my quote. But in my rentals when taxes go up, or sanitation rates I have a few months to adjust and therefor I lose nothing. I just raise the rent. And except for bad economic time I can't remember reducing rents.
You mentioned to one of the teachers that if they don't like the benefits and wages go get another job and don't let the door hit them in the butt. You have the same option with landlording.
I hear this BS from other landlords occasionally and they all do the tennants, the government are all against me thing. We all pick our own game and simply need to follow the rules that apply and if we find it isn't profitable then move on. You can too!
When I left my position as a maintenance engineer for a large hotel in Columbus Ohio I was making 55k plus a variety of nice perks. I left that job to become a vocational teacher. Because of my background they gave me credit as though I had worked for the schools for 10 years, not in terms of retirement but they just put me to the pay level of a 10 year teacher with a masters degree. I have no significant education beyond HS. Because of their generosity I only lost 20k a year and had to buy my own office supplies because of low funding levels.
A principle in the state of Ohio with a masters degree and principles certificate made 61k a year at that time. That means that a man of no education made almost as much as a man with lots of education. Additionally I found education as a system to have higher expectations than any other for donated extra time and funded time that was so poorly funded you couldn't break even. Except for the retirement it is a lousy business to make money in. And instead of bitching I left.
This is a country of immigrants. Is Mooney an american name? I only ask because it seems somewhat Irish to me. That must mean that some of your relatives came from somewhere else. And I would bet that before they owned property someone paid for their public education. I know that certainly happened with the McGuires on my moms side of the family.
Public education is a must in our society. You may not like it or agree with it but just because you don't have kids involved it hardly makes you a non participant nor a non benefactor. You take the schools out of your county and see how many tennants you have. You don't like the method of payment, run for office. Then you too can enact change. You claim it isn't fair. What the hell is fair? At what point can we hit an issue that can be government funded and fair to all. Nothing that I can think of. DanT
Good post but you too failed to answer a simple question.
Leave us out of it if that clouds the issue . We are only a brian fart anyway.
How is it fair taxing property for the school system? You say its BS I think its not fair ? I think its taxing the middle class and the rich when the poor cant pay their part. Why cant they pay their part since they are the heavy hitters to the problem? What about 20 percent sales tax across the board? Would that suit you? Everyone pays the same amount they spend.
I dont think it was meant for all to agree for we never have and it doesnt look like we ever will . You can write one down for one seriously against the union of teachers . Im against the system the way its being ran now , I carried a petition to eliminate property taxes and we got screwed by Clinton overlooking it . The first year we were told we did it wrong so we did it again only to get it vetoed because they said the United States cant run with out land taxes in addition to the rest. It keeps you from ever owning your home out right. Thats just BS so ignore me .
Listen to your president instead.
We wait and we will witness.
Tim
Yeppers , just go up and charge more thats what GM thought. Unuhumn swing blade.
Theres no end in sight, we can tax and gas price our people to death before they feeze to death paying the additional heating prices. unhumn swing blade.
While were at it lets pile on a big fat raise for us too unhumn. Dont you see that opportunity if evaporating ?
So you sit content to give them what ever they want and be passive ? Thats your choice not mine and go ahead and get pizzed at me and blow up but Im not the one robbing you..
Tim
" Thats your choice not mine and go ahead and get pizzed at me and blow up but Im not the one robbing you.."
I am not pizzed at you and I have no intention of blowing up. I think that is your issue in this issue.
Look, I said that if government funding was involved someone will get screwed. And they will. No way to make it all fair. But without public education we all get screwed. And again if they move all the public education from your county and cut taxes accordingly I promise you that your tennants will leave and go somewhere else and you will be out of business.
You didn't mention whether or not you thought you relatives from the past might have benefited from public eduction prior to being property owners. Again, I know mine did.
I don't look at it like the government has a plot against me or anyone else. They are trying to satisfy too many masters. And they will never get it done. And they will never make us all happy. But you are clouding the issue with your big brother mentality. The taxes are a business expense. Landlording is a business. Simple as that. Making money is as simple as spending less than you make.
If they raise your taxes on every house $120 a year that is 10 bucks a month. You raise the rent. Thats it. Nothing else to talk about. So you think the next tax levy will raise your rents 100 a month? That would be problem.
Look, run for the school board next round. Find out what it takes to keep the boat afloat. Then we can discuss it from an informed opinion instead of one of us standing out in the rain shooting randomly. Until then we will just have to agree to disagree I guess. DanT
Yall listen to me this time please.
I realize education has to be funded or be addressed through goverment. To be mandated in our laws which it is already. Otherwise the spanish would never speak English.
Second point which is a mixed point . Ill take all the Mexicans if they will become Americans but not if they want to stay Mexican in America. They choose the later and I wont accept it . I think you should ride for the brand. If you are going to support your self here then this needs to be home . If its not the the visa has expired and they need to go home . Either join us or get out . If they are Americans , I dont have a problem. Im for making them Americans or sending them home . My ancestors lived by the laws of this land as far as I know about . Working here off a ss number where the owner is dead is not legal, but we allow it because we let several do it off the same card and no one ever files. DA. Actually we need to lock them up here so they can legally support our ss system when the boomers retire since we are not replacing our selfs .
Ya , I was really personal against them . NOt. I just want them to do what is right.
Tim
Looks like Piffin reads the WSJ
LOL
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110007594
I pick up a copy every five or six weeks, but that fact is a part of history I have read four or five times in various histories.I remember the same point being obvious in articles I read in a magazine called, "Soviet Life" back in the early seventies. It wa s arag devoted to trying to convince young Americans about how wonderful life was in the Soviet controlled states, but the veneer of excuses why the collectivist farms were failing while the pictures showed smiling farmers reaping heaps of produce from their small privately allowed plots worked by hand made the truth obvious no matter how many yarns the propagandists tryed to spin in th esame vein as 4lorns minilectures here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Unions? Good and bad.
Personally, I can`t stand em.....but I do believe there is a place and time for them. I also believe they serve a certain segment of the population, that without them might not survive.
The personal experiences I`ve had or witnessed through friends and family have left a very sour taste in my mouth.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
When I was a young buck I joined the union.
Lets put it this way;
If I had a boy that wanted to learn just carpentry [which I dont] I would send him to a union shop because the training is exellent. The benifits are the best out there and normnally the pay. Its a great place to put in a 6 yr apprenticeship and not a bad way to make a living unless one decides they want more . From 18 to 30, its a good place for a tradesman to be .
Tim
Abuse of power by industry led to union formation.
Abuse of power by some unions led to a significant decrease in union membership.
The issue isn't unionization per se.
The issue is abuse of power.
You're right about abuse of power. Everyone wants it and promises they wont go down that road, but when they get it the abuse begins.
I was a union carpenter for about ten years. I got sick of working with some real dogs who could'nt hammer their way out of a paper bag. Those guys were sent out on jobs where they had no business being there. The "old boys club" made sure they were employed.
There is a much higher percentage of talented labor but the dogs shine through.
All, and I do mean all, of the benefits you now enjoy were given, and I do mean given, to you at no cost by the Unions. The Union members for the past 75 years fought, starved, and yes died for the benefits which you now consider your birth right:* 5 Day Work Week
* 8 Hour Work Day
* Paid Vacation
* Health Benefits
* Safe Work Places
* Non-discriminatory Hiring PracticesSo when you put in for your vacation next year, give a silent thought and prayer for those departed Union workers that fought for you to have these "rights", because Industry wasn't about to give them to the workers without a fight.This post is too political and probably should be moved to the Cafe, or whatever they call it now.Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
"* 5 Day Work Week
* 8 Hour Work Day
* Paid Vacation
* Health Benefits
* Safe Work Places
* Non-discriminatory Hiring Practices"I've never worked anyplace with any or all those benefits.
And I've always made a better living than the union guys i've known.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Union carpenter for 20 years, metal studs and rock. Taking home a thousand a week plus benefits, year round. I have enjoyed being in the union, working on interesting projects and made a lot of friends.
I have no strong feelings for or against the unions, it is a personal choice. The area I live in happens to have a strong union presence in the trades and it was the correct choice for me at the time.
I do agree with other posters that point out that a lot of the things we take for advantage were fought for and achieved by early union organizers (8 hour workday, 5 day work week, breaks etc..)
I find it interesting that there is such a strong anti-union stance among some people here, but so be it.
Ten more years to go...
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Employeed by large corporation that has union shop where I am, agency fee. Am a religious objector, so just send in receipts for non political, non religious contributions in lieu of agency fee.
Besides the religious objector status, IMO, the union is simply the refuge of the incompetent.
so, fire away!
Being that I'am from the auto state, I can confirm what Blue says. A percentage of the union autoworkers where pure deadbeats. It was commonplace to have people punching your time card, while you were across the street at the blue collar bar. Drugs, achocol,prostitution,gambling,theft and just about any other vice you could image were commonplace in the plants.
The management and the union were all aware of the situation, violators never lost their jobs, mainly got some form of a reprimand and it was back to business as usual.
I was in the position of hiring labor for my business and many of these people that I hired were sons of union auto members. The problem that occurred was many of these individuals had grown up with the same mentality as their fathers and his peers. These people didn't last long as I wasn't hogged tied like the auto manufactures.
I believe the situation has changed some as the union finally got a wake up call when jobs started moving south and offshore.
I have also be in the position of project management with union carpenter pension fund money as the main financier. I could write a book about the monies that the Michigan Carpenter Pension fund has wasted and pissed away from its due paying botherhood (its in the 8figures). I did find that the carpenters that I was in direct control of were very competent and very skilled. It is unfortunate that there is no accountability for the people spending their money.
As some others have stated its not all metal, rock and form work, I think it has something to do with the company you hook up with.
Benefits,health and pension are excellent.
>>>>Unions . I would like some feedback on how most of you feel about unions . If your for or against them . Please explain .
I'm for 'em.
Especially on chili.
I heard the other day that if you chew gum whilst ya slice 'em, you won't cry.
I'm partial to the walla walla sweets, myself.
Waitaminnit...
America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote.
Unions are only viable in industries with large pricing power. Any industry that works on tight margins cannot be competitive using union labor. This is why Wal-Mart won't even consider talking to unions. Highly unionized industries like the Autos and Airlines are doomed until they de-unionize their businesses.
What I'd like to see is unions take over the benefits and pay for their members. For example: GM says to the UAW, "we'll give you all a lump sum payment per production unit. Disburse it however you see fit. Wages, health care, pension, disability - whatever."
If the unions became labor subcontractors instead of negotiating entities, I think many things could change for the better. Unions (at least at this point) still have the political clout to influence the government on issues such as health care, taxes, and insurance requirements.
DCS Inc.
"Whaddya mean I hurt your feelings, I didn't know you had any feelings." Dave Mustaine
The Operating Engineers in the St. Louis area (local 513) did that in the late 50's or early '60's. They went to a 'hiring hall' scheme where the contractors called the hall to get their operators and the operators went thru the hall to get work. Before that, the contractors hired 'off the bank'.
My Dad got me in the union and highway work each summer paid for my college. (Pop also made it very clear that if he ever caught me on a dozer after I finished college, he would kick my arse into the next month - lol)
It seemed like a pretty good setup and the union took care of the pensions. In the St Louis area, dirt moving was pretty seasonal and you often worked for several contractors during a year. The contractors paid the wages and made contributions to the union for pensions, medical insurance, etc.
I always felt that the hiring hall gave the union a little too much power over the contractors. I don't know if it ever happened, but it would have been pretty easy for the local to wreck a contractor by sending him all the bums and goof-offs - and there were quite a few of them.
So Mike
You have a range of opinions here..... What do you think?
In my experience the shops that are nonunion needed the union more than the union shops. But this was trucking. (Teamsters). But my sample size was small.
those who can ... do.
those who can't ... teach ... or join the union.
and teachers are the bigest union.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Teachers
Now thats a hot subject . Around here its hotter than the war.
Tim
Thanks Jeff, What about those that can and do while teaching?
And yes we are one of the biggest unions becuase we are used to being pizzed on.
Unions are a balance of power. They're necessary when upper management/shareholders begin to put their benefits ahead of their employees.
Sadly, Unions have been weakened over the past several decades, and it continues (NWA, Wal-Mart, etc.)
But, as wages and benefits and pensions decrease, hopefully we'll see a resurgence in them.
Unions also have to go global, just as the economy has. The problem with 'free trade' is that for the most part, its current state is one of taking advanatage of other countries inability or unwillingness to put their employee's conditions on par with ours.
The argument that Unions have made the US uncompetitive is backwards. NOT having unions in China and in the 3rd world is what has made the US 'oncompetitive'. The problem is that our country has yet to fully emprace FAIR trade...which is the necessary next step for a global economy to actually benefit the masses, rather than the few.
"They're necessary when upper management/shareholders begin to put their benefits ahead of their employees."I have a news flash for you.The business that puts empl;oyee benefits ahead of shareholder profits is a bankrupt business with no jobs top offer.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"The business that puts empl;oyee benefits ahead of shareholder profits is a bankrupt business with no jobs top offer."That's bull.That's american big-business brainwashing.Take a look at Costco as a company that puts their customers ahead of all others. Oh, and look at that, they're making a profit! ;o)Or look at Harley Davidson. Or any other number of companies.It's been shown that actually caring for your employees can actually save money down the road.
Do you really think Costco puts their employees before all others?If so, then what are they doing earning a profit? That money could be distributed evenly to their employees to increase their quality of life. Of course, they're never going to do that.Why? Because profit is essential for a business to survive.Costco, HD, and others are not putting employees before profit, rather they realize the importance of both. It is difficult to sustain profitability with disgruntled employees so they strive for a balance.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"Do you really think Costco puts their employees before all others?"If you believe business rags that say as much, and the CEO that says as much, and compare their wages/benefits to those of Sam's Club, and compare the retention rates they have compared to the rest, then, yes, I really do think so."If so, then what are they doing earning a profit? That money could be distributed evenly to their employees to increase their quality of life."It is."Of course, they're never going to do that."They do."Why? Because profit is essential for a business to survive."Profit does not negate employee comfort, benefits and pay. These are not mutually exclusive concepts. "Costco, HD, and others are not putting employees before profit, rather they realize the importance of both."Read up on Costco. They are definitely taking a different approach than many of the big box retailers.
"Read up on Costco. They are definitely taking a different approach than many of the big box retailers."Darrel, I took your advice and read for about a half hour on Costco. I was familiar with them before but now I know much more.Their business model is innovative and I think it's refreshing that they are willing to pay $17 to someone who would likely make $10 at Sams. I think it's great that they can be profitable and provide their employees with a better than average wage. I have the same goals for my company.*I do have to make a retraction of a statment I made previously. Costco doesn't need to worry about shareholder profits nearly as much as they are concerned with the profits of the business.*I think you would find that if the market conditions shifted (which historically is a point that unions are not willing to accept) that the leadership of Costco would be forced to make some major changes, including revision of the compensation packages of employees.Costco is increasing the employees contribution from 5% to 8% to adjust to changing conditions. Only 3%, but a 60% increase in the burden on the employees.Why are they doing this? Because the market is changing. And why does the company have to adjust to the market? Because they cannot survive otherwise.What happens to Costco on the macro scale also happens to employees on the micro scale. This is what unions fight against but it is a battle they can never win. When the market says that an employee must work for $12/hr. the employee has two options. Take the job at the going rate or change the conditions to which they are subject to (move to a new location, increase their skills, switch industries, etc.)Getting back to Costco, I think it's wonderful that they can pay more. That doesn't mean that their strategy will work for all (in fact it probably only works for them because they are so different). When a union determines that their membership is worth $xx/hr. they run the risk of pricing themselves out of the market.Unions are effective to counter against inhumane practices by employers and manipulation by the same, but they break down when they try to create artifical environments that are contrary to the free market.Does an organization have to treat their employees poorly to survive? No. Do they have to be competitive with the market forces? Absolutely.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"Unions are effective to counter against inhumane practices by employers and manipulation by the same, but they break down when they try to create artifical environments that are contrary to the free market."I agree. Though what's the alternative? Unfortunately, the free market isn't a fair market right now. So letting market forces dictate prevailing wages is only going to be driving them down. Unions aren't the answer to that, admittedly. Changing global trade policies to reflect fair trade is likely the better option, albeit perhaps the more impossible option.The reality is that there is always someone willing to work for less. Unions are all we have at the moment to tide that trend it seems.
"Changing global trade policies to reflect fair trade is likely the better option, albeit perhaps the more impossible option."That is a another route that I think spells disaster. If the workers in China can do for $4 what we must charge $16, shouldn't we let them do it and find something more beneficial to focus on?Our country did not become a superpower through protecting our own by paying more than the going (global) rate for items and services. We did it by being the most efficient. "The reality is that there is always someone willing to work for less. Unions are all we have at the moment to tide that trend it seems."Yes, the unions will stave off the competing forces for a time, but sooner or later we will be in a hole that we cannot dig out of. We need to focus on competition not protection.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"That is a another route that I think spells disaster. If the workers in China can do for $4 what we must charge $16, shouldn't we let them do it and find something more beneficial to focus on?"As long as the working conditions are the same, sure. But usually they are not. And I'm not a fan of the US taking advantage of the rest of the world's poor working conditions for laborers and lack of environmental policies.We're all on the same planet. I don't want NJ deciding to save a few bucks per widget by dumping their sludge into the Atlantic ocean anymore than I want some third world country doing it."We did it by being the most efficient."'efficient' is a loaded term. ;o)We actually led the world by being innovative first and foremost."We need to focus on competition not protection."Well, I wasn't advocating protection (though there are some HUGE enviornmental gains to be had by keeping things local) namly because we're in a global economy. Protecion is hard. What I'm advocating is for FAIR trade. A necessity to take the global market forward in a way that benefits all, rather than the few it currently benefits.
Speaking of stuff made in China...
Anyone know what the wholesale is on that store brand $199 imported faucet that's a knockoff of a name brand that costs just a little more?
About fifty bucks.
So, who is screwing whom?
Market forces... Let's see...
Union plumber hourly wage at around $30 an hour.
Non-union plumber in the same area hourly wage around $27 an hour.
Union guy has paid health coverage, non-union guy has to pay his own way through the plan his employer offers.
Union shop charges the customer $90 an hour for a service call.
Non-union shop charges customer $90 an hour for the service call.
Hmmmm...
Union mechanic makes $25 an hour at a dealer.
Non-union mechanic makes $22 an hour at a dealer.
Union shop charges the customer $90 an hour on a flat rate system.
Non-union shop charges the customer $90 an hour on a flat rate system.
Hmmm....
So, what market forces are you talking about?
Seems like the bad union is keeping the other guys wages up.
The customer pays the same thing, so no "market forces" there.
Are you talking about the market that wants to force the pay of the employee down?
Dan,Your anecdotal report is great, but are you sure the figures are accurate?Would you care to elaborate on how the union shop can pay so much more while still charging the same amount? Something does not add up.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I am in the trades, and I know what a few shops charge per hour and what they pay their journeyman employees by the hour. The union shops are making money. The union shop I work at bills at $80 an hour retail. Another union shop bills at $92 an hour retail.
Union journeyman wages is public info- just call the hall. Some unions have websites that list contractors- call them and find out the rate for a service call.
I also know people in the car repair biz. Those numbers are also accurate. You can call dealers in your own area and check what they cahrge per hour. The average retail hourly rate here is almost 4x the hourly rate that the employee gets on the check (yes, I know about the added cost of the bennies, but they do not add up to the difference).
One thing I am sure of is this: As far as building trades go, if the unions go away, those that are employees will see their pay fall. Retail rates probably won't go down. Non-union employees in my trade make an average of 30% less and often have none of the bennies and often act as subcontractors instead of employees for all practical discussion.
It would also be difficult to move up in wages in a non-union environment if the employee did good work but had the unfortunate luck of getting laid off every time it got slow (last hired, first fired). Then the path starts all over for insurance and anything else.
As far as GM and the success of the non-union automakers is concerned, the big question is what will the non-union hourly rate be if there is no incentive to keep the union out?
There is plenty of money to pay millions to CEO's and endless layers of management, so why not massive white collar layoffs at GM, Ford and United? I'm sure if the white collar folks at Delphi agreed to a 60% pay cut then maybe the hourlies would follow along- maybe not.
"One thing I am sure of is this: As far as building trades go, if the unions go away, those that are employees will see their pay fall. Retail rates probably won't go down."EXCELLENT point.And it goes back to Sam's Club vs. Costco. Same bulk crap. Same profits. Yet one company pays their employees well, offers better benefits, and maintains a much higher retention rate.
so why not massive white collar layoffs at GM, Ford and United? I'm sure if the white collar folks at Delphi agreed to a 60% pay cut then maybe the hourlies would follow along- maybe not.
Danski, you haven't been watching the last five or ten years.
All of those companies have been laying off in significant numbers. Every white collar guy I know is being asked to do twice the amount of work that they used to, with 1/2 the amount of staff. For many/most of the white collar guys, their overtime pay has been cancelled. Now, when they work extra, it's free.
All of this has contributed to Michigan spiraling economy. The rest of the country might be enjoying a decent economy, but ours has been heading south since Clinton was in office. I don't mention Clinton to blame him, I just remember talking about Michigan's recession when Bush Gore campaigns were ongoing.
All of us in the rustbelt have known that the big companies were going to be taking big hits. All the major financial rags have been predicting that the medical costs and more importantly, the pension situation was going to make the big three non-c9mpetitive and possibly put all of them into bankruptcy. Gm usually leads the charge and if I was a betting man, I'd bet that they will file for bankruptcy in the near future with the others following.
blue
blue
Re: "Would you care to elaborate on how the union shop can pay so much more while still charging the same amount? Something does not add up."Workers making more in pay and benefits. Customers paying roughly the same.Ideally the difference comes from efficiencies inherent in the union system. A union trained worker needs less training and supervision on the job. With benefits and higher pay employees tend to stick around longer. So there is lees turnover and the inefficiencies inherent in turnover like the worker learning the shop SOP, where the parts and tools are kept and organized, who has what expertise, how to get along with the other people.Unions, and their associated trade organizations on the contractor side, also typically bargain collectively with insurance companies for WC, liability and the benefits they offer. Talking to an insurer as a small shop you don't have much leverage. Negotiate as a larger group with common interests and you get a better deal.Of course sometimes, when a difference has to be made up to complete the circle, union contractors cut their own profit margin. Not uncommon to see non-union contractors ride up with new trucks and retire to vulgar mansions. While union contractors drive trucks and live in houses scarcely better than their workers.Which further reinforces loyalty and a sense of a shared burden. That is bad news for most contractors who assume it is their birthright to make large while their employees struggle. On the other hand many of the most pro union contractors are union employees who went into business. They are willing to do well for themselves and their employees and see little need to make a killing.Aside it was indirectly claimed that God intended capitalism, the profit motive and unrestrained free markets. Not necessarily so.One might refer to Acts 2:44-5 to find how the apostles operated economically. "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need".Hmmm. Where have we heard a similar saying? Leave it to those wily 'Godless Communists' to be closer to scripture than the 'religious right' and their minions, the GOP. LOL.Funny what you find when you dig below the talk show rhetoric and sound bites.
4Lorn,I think you make good points about the efficiencies that a union contractor can realize. With the structure of apprenticeships and continuing education, I can imagine that there is a good chance that the union guys could be better equipped to do the jobs. My personal observation of union workers is different, but maybe I just haven't rubbed shoulders with the best sample."Aside it was indirectly claimed that God intended capitalism, the profit motive and unrestrained free markets. Not necessarily so.
One might refer to Acts 2:44-5 to find how the apostles operated economically."I don't know if you meant that I implied that or someone else, but I think it's interesting to note that even amongst the best circumstances (the general environment of the early Church) you see Ananias and Sapphira. Evidently they were not completely on board with the collective feel of the time, as their death proved.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I hadn't aimed the biblical reference at you. I should have written it more clearly. I apologize for the confusion.It was more aimed at a editorial and speculative article which claimed changing agriculture organization yielded better returns in a historic case. Pretty much overlooked the history and was a poor choice for reference. Evidently it had gone over well with those inclined to buy such fairy tales as fact. Which was good enough but the last of the article and commentary made claim of a supernatural connection to a particular economic model. I had detected the variance with the record but couldn't remember the biblical reference to counter the assertion.Today I had stumbled across the verse among some notes. Figured I would get it out there. Even if none notice it needed to be said IMHO. I don't have any religious affiliation. Tending toward agnosticism. But I figure references to the first century AD have been used to excuse so much violence and oppression that the idea that it could be used to justify a right-wing economic bias needed to be countered swiftly.
Re: "Unions are a balance of power. They're necessary when upper management/shareholders begin to put their benefits ahead of their employees."Not exactly putting the shareholders on the back burner it Is possible to have employees higher on the list of priorities, provide benefits and allow unions and still make good, sometimes superior, profits. Saw this in the newspaper:
http://www.napawash.org/resources/peirce/Peirce_11_27_05.html
I haven't worked union in 25 years. Last time I did was in Calif. shipyard worker. The only thing I knew about ships was that if they had no holes they would float. Don't tell me about training or apprentice programs. Hired straight in as journeyman because I owned all the right tools and knew how to use them. The painters union would complain if you put on a coat of paint so you could finish your job, so would the carpenters, sheet metal workers, pipe fitters, you name it. Sometimes you had to wait days just so you could close up the space you were working in. And the politics, when the contract ended with the company the local fought the workers every inch so as not to have collective bargining amongst all the yards. And then the national steps in scoops up the strike fund and the retirement fund 2 weeks before the contract ends and says it was being mismanaged. And of course National was always supporting who the suits wanted not the workers during elections.
Some body on here mentioned all the things that the unions got for workers and I don't disagree with that. The unions were right for the times but thanks to the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, as amended. they are past their usefulness. Also nowadays you could always find some lawyer to make rich, I mean help you out in the courts.
By the way I live in a right to work state now. Unions have no control here at all.
well, wiz.. i live in a right-to-work state too, and it's the most heavily unionized state in the union... so what ?
scooter was right on.... unions created the middle class.. and when unions die.. the middle class dies with them
kinda clear ain't it... the average wage , adjusted for inflation , has been falling since the '70's... and the strength of unionized labor has been falling with it
don't kid yourself.... middle class rates are set by the unions.. they create the floor.. pull out the floor and we're all in free-fallMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
There it is.
I once worked as an engineer for RCA in Camden NJ. They were one of the few professional sites with a union. From what I can tell, the union kept RCA from totally screwing over everyone.
That's my one data point.
(Well, actually, I've got one more. Way back about 1970 when the PO unionized I was working for the US gov. Thanks to the PO union I got a modest raise.)
I think a union is good when the company is bad, or just faceless. But the union then needs to be a bit small and hungry and responsive (as it was at RCA). Too often the union becomes just another big bureaucracy and loses much of its reason for existence.
happy?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? I read the whole thread & what I have to say is....
I run a union shop & as a manager it gives me a set of rules.............
On a hill by the harbour
say again - who runs the shop?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
If you would prefer i run the shop with my guys
I have some very good carps that work with me...............
They do let me be the boss..........
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 11/27/2005 8:35 pm by Novy
Edited 11/27/2005 8:45 pm by Novy
If we start with the basis that "a good days work for a good days pay" and we analyze what union's have to offer it's a no brainer. Excellent wages, job security, health benefits, and pension. Motherhood and apple pie... Who wouldn't want them?(benefits that is). Problem was that unions trained their competition then failed to enroll them in the union when things became a little slow. Now the trained, qualified non union work force is out there eating the unions lunch. Unions have provided good organization to help fight for basic rights and benefits for all Americans. ie: Social security, national health care, unemployment insurance, social insurance, fair wage standards, Davis Bacon (federal prevailing wages) and many other national benefits enjoyed by all. Don't want to bog you down with too much.
National benifits . You have got to be kidding me .
Mike - Foxboro
"Davis Bacon (federal prevailing wages) "Actually Davis Bacon was backed by the union to KEEP BLACKS OUT OF CONSTRUCTION."national health care"I assume that you mean employee paid health insuracne.Actually that was started by the companies during WWII. There was wage/price controlls and the companies could not increase the wages to attract new employees. So they started paying for health insurance.
Thanks for your view, but as expected I respectfully disagree. Davis Bacon was a measure created to level the playing field. DB has nothing to do with Union membership, rather only states whoever does the work gets the pay.
I speak of health care and one needs to look a SSI, workers compensation laws, medicare, medicaid, family medical leave act to name a few.
Thanks again
"Davis Bacon was a measure created to level the playing field. "That is a good one. Maybe you should join the commedy club circuit.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis-Bacon_Act"The act is named after its Republican sponsors, James "Puddler Jim" Davis, a Senator from Pennsylvania and a former Secretary of Labor under three presidents, and Representative Robert L. Bacon of Long Island, New York.Rep. Bacon--whose pet issue was protecting America’s racial "homogeneity"--initially introduced what became the Davis-Bacon Act in 1927 after a contractor employed African-American workers from Alabama to build a Veteran’s Bureau hospital in his district. The "neighboring community," Bacon reported, was "very upset," as were local unions. The legislative history of Davis-Bacon reflects a desire by Congress to reserve jobs on federal projects for local, union workers, at the expense especially of itinerant black workers."
Ya know,
They say that one oh $hit erases a thousand atta boy's. Thats how I feel about the Unions. I've read a few posts here about how the union protects the way of life and livelyhood of it's members. I've yet to see that. What I do see is greed, the all consuming power to stay in power and just plain arrogance.
My first encounter with a Union: Only non-union guys on a small commercial job. My boss jumps across a footing and kicks a little dirt in. Grabs a nearby shovle to clean it out so that noone else had too. Causes a half day walkout by the Laborers.
Encounter number two: IN the late eighties when things were bad I was driving almost 80 miles one way to a jobsite just outside of Philadelphia. There were three crews working there but the local carpenters union was very slow and had approached the developer about some work. Not wanting any trouble he agrees to give them one house at a time to frame. They show up, do a pretty decent job, we even envy their fork lift a little.
A few days later a crew that had a few non-english speakers shows up to find all the walls it framed the day before knocked over and laying in the dirt. Happens to them two nights later. It aint no secret, you can just follow the forklift tire tracks, but no one is willing to say anything. It never happens a third time because, well, lets just say some forklift operator ended up with a broken arm. Don't know how but I know that afterwards no more walls got pushed over.
Encounter number Three: My Mother-in-law (62y/o with an eigth grade education) works in a factory. Her job is to put products on a piece of cardboard and shrink rap them to it. Works by the hour. Has a pension, health insurance, 401K, paid vacation (two weeks) and sick and holiday pay. Makes about $700 gross for a 45 hr week. Company moves to a new base plus incentive program. Her weekly earnings jump to almost $900 per week. Benefits package doesn't change.
A few workers don't want to work that hard and try to get the AFL-CIO involved. After three votes not to unionize the rep is still hanging around but now he's making thinly veiled threats towards people like my mother-in-law who voted against them.
Encounter number four: My father works for a large compnay that is engaged in mostly commercial development. They have a small residential arm and he works there. He's running a 300 unit townhouse project.
Since the company does a lot of union work there is pressure to put guys on this residential job. Of course times are good and noone is on the bench and the halls really don't want to be bothered, but it's an appearance thing.
A deal is struck to have two laborers on the job for the duration. They can work 40 hrs a week or as much overtime as they wish. On the Tuesday before the model opens dad orders a dumpster to be delivered to the driveway of the last model. He needs all of the junk collected in that garage cleaned out by Saturday so they can come get the Dumpster Monday because grand opening is Wednesday. He asks nicely but it doesn't get done. Don't know why, don't care. So he and my brother and I load up the dumpster on Sunday.
So I show up Monday morning to do a little last minute punchout stuff for my dad. What do I see? Laborer number two standing in the dumpster and throwing junk in the general direction of the garage. All the while yelling at the top of his lungs " What scab son-of-a-##### dared load this dumpster? This is UNION work you scab Mother f#####".
Turns out Laborer number one is enjoying the prospect of between two and three years of low stress work. So, when he shows up and sees whats going on, he pummels this assmonkey. The next day the hall sends out a new guy and laborer number two is never seen on that job again.
Encounter number five: Dad is running highrise residential job. Of course it's union but when we go to look at some stairs there not one person on the job speaks english. Kinnda funny but hey maybe the hall is just really open minded.
Coupla things happen to make dad try to figure out exactly whats going on so he goes out and sits on the job for a few days. Friday around comes the business agent. Wanna guess what happens? All the Illegals line up with a nice crisp $50 for him. They shake hands, he pockets "something" and then drives away.
Encounter number six: Framing a small addition for a small contractor. His Temporary helper is a union carpenter sitting the bench for the winter. All day long we have to listen to this guy talk about how he has " Protection" he can just come and work on our jobs whenever he feels like it but if we show up on his? Its concrete shoes for all of us.
By lunchtime on day three we load his tools in his truck for him and tell him that if we ever see him again we're going to nail his balls to the deck and then call the hall and tell them he's scabbing. He's doesn't come back for as long as we are there.
Encounter number seven: The Local is looking for guys like me and a few of my friends. Guys who have had it with crews and are mostly working alone. The promise is Journeyman or Master based on how we test and how long we've been in business for ourselves. No school, no bull. The hall is empty and more calls are coing in every day. Business is good.
One friend takes them up on it. He becomes an journeyman and is working fairly steady. Prettysoon at least one company is asking for him by name. Then two.
Then things slow down. Old guys are sitting the bench while this "new" guy is out working. One day he is told that "due to their mistake, not really his fault, he has no apprenticeship." and "He can step back and become a second year or he'll be out of the union". This aint no helper mind you. He was running his own show before this.
So now he's back on his own.
Unions were without a doubt key to the development of the middle class in this country. They will also be the key to it's undoing. And their fat dumb happy brainwashed membership is just along for the ride.
You've got some interesting union stories Robert. I think you pretty much summed up my feelings about the union. I was in it for my first seven years but I never thought once about being an azz to a non union worker. We all make our choices and I'm okay with them doing their thing.
About 12 years ago the union was making an effort to sign up residential contractors. They visited our sub. I listened politely and said no thanks. The guys down the street joined. Bad idea with that crew! There were two of us on our job, ten of them on their job. Same house. They had a dayight section on the back wall of their house, otherwise the same house. We started a day earlier than them. We didn't beat them though: they beat us by one day!
The crew obviously lost a ton of cash on that one job, probably enough to put them out of business. The didn't finish all of their detail work and the builder wanted us to finish it. We didn't. About six months later, we did do some service on that house.
the point is that not all crews can afford to pay the wages that the union sets. If theres no flexibility for capability, the wage structure is destined to eat the business up. We easily could have unionized, but they couldn't. It's simple economics.
blue
I still have a difficult time understanding the difficulty with union wages.
Builders still charge what the market will bear for the finished product. I have worked in a few union tract home projects, and schedules are tight. Some of the work leaves much to be desired, but that's what happens when you are essentially doing piecework instead of working hourly.
Those builders still made money. A whole lot of people snapped up those $350k plus McMansions built as cheap as cheap could get (nationally known builder name, though). I couldn't afford to buy one on my union paycheck, though- unless I could come up with over $150k as a downstroke.
Scheduling trades on top of each other to compress the schedule doesn't help working conditions, either.
Sometimes throwing manpower on a job eats up hours faster than things get done. I am sure there are plenty of ten man non-union crews that can't get it together, either.
Maybe if the trades all got together and started charging what it took to do the job right, instead of cutting out everything they can to get the low bid on the job, things might be different.
It would be interesting to know the timeframe for those bad experiences.
Things were different 15-20 years ago. I have also heard some stories- things that wouldn't be done today. I have worked with a couple of "old school" guys, and it was not a pleasant experience working with someone that doesn't need a reason to mouth off.
I also think the construction industry attracted different people with different attitudes than most that work the trades today. The rampant drinking and drug problem isn't what it used to be, either.
There are still some "old school" ways in some of the new union members. I do not think that is a good way to encourage union membership. Calling someone a "scab" is not going to bolster enrollment numbers. There are also some unions that exist soley to extort dues from the membership. There are bad apples and corruption in the non-union sector, too.
Unfortunateley, the bad is all that is remembered or talked about. Stuff that was done 20 years ago by union members is still dragged out from under the rug. I bet plenty of non-union guys were also out busting arms and knocking down walls.
I wonder what would happen if other portions of American history were looked at under such bright light.
Against.
I know too many people who make 50K + to sit and read a book , occasionally get interupted to slap a sticker on a window, or install a door panel on a car.
And the shop stewards (not sure if that is the correct term), and representatives who get to go on all expense paid VACATIONS to Palm Springs and the likes to 'discuss' Union stuff.
Then I have to pay upwards of $50K for a new truck??? Not saying the Unions are fully responsible for this, after all Detroit agreed to the unions demands, but I still end up paying for some slouch to have 2-3 hours drunken lunch breaks, great medical, 1 month 95% paid vacation (its actually called a layoff).
No thanks.
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Again, that's the American 'they have it better then me, so I hate them' thinking. We all should have a month of vacation and affordable health care. We shouldn't hate them because they have it and we don't. We all should be striving for that same benefit.Jealousy seems to be the biggest enemy of the Unions.
Again, that's the American 'they have it better then me, so I hate them' thinking. We all should have a month of vacation and affordable health care. We shouldn't hate them because they have it and we don't. We all should be striving for that same benefit.
Jealousy seems to be the biggest enemy of the Unions.
That is one of the standard "I am a union member" tactics. Riddled with guilt they have to cast blame, or divert the subject. Never addressing the real issues. You know why? Because they know its true. They can't argue with facts.
Aldous Huxley once said: "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored". I believe this is the case.
And your incorrect sir, they do not have it better than me. But there are a whole lot of people out there who would be willing to WORK a full day for pay. Not get drunk and read a book. How does that even begin to imply that I am jealous? I couldn't even live with myself if I did that? But then again.......
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"And your incorrect sir, they do not have it better than me. But there are a whole lot of people out there who would be willing to WORK a full day for pay. Not get drunk and read a book. How does that even begin to imply that I am jealous? "The fact that you are brazenly stereotyping union members as lazy drunks would seem into indicate you are jealous.
Your right. You win.
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