What is the limit to what you will pay out of pocket, for materials, for a contract job? I have a job that will cost me $1500 for materials. I have the chinch , but I don’t want to get burned and I don’ want to look like a cheap bastard.
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Replies
???
Why on earth would you pay for initial materials for a customer with YOUR money?
Think: "Down Payment".. You're not a bank.. You're not their credit card.
Who make the down payment when you buy a car?
You or the dealer??
Smarten up quick!!
[email protected]
WHICH content will be free, of course; WHICH content will require registration; but WHICH content will be available only to members of FineHomebuilding.com.???
"Who make the down payment when you buy a car?You or the dealer??"The dealer.The dealer has paid for, or more likely floor planned it (financed). When you pay for it you drive out with the car..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I think whatever's "customary" in your area, or whatever you can negotiate. Personally, I find it reasonable (as a HO) to pay an amount about equal to the materials cost when the bulk of the materials are on-site. This after a initial deposit worth maybe 10% of the total job. (I realize that I don't have release from mechanic's liens on the materials, but there's gotta be a bit of trust all around.)
Of course, few people are as reasonable as I am. (No ";)" implied.)
a dollar.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Not a plug nickel.
I require a 30% deposit before I even put a project on my calendar.
If the initial delivery of materials will exceed said 30%, I bump it higher.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
If you need $1500 in materials, i'd ask for $1500. I got burned once, never again. You want your house fixed, you buy the stuff. I may get burned on labor, but i'm not donating materials.
When you play in the Major Leagues, its real EZ to drop Ten Gs before you see a Dime! If your in the Farm League, like the other posters, its best to get your payment at time of material drop.
Most of our customers been burned a time or two by the Dog, Ladder & Pick-up contractors, so their a little Gun Shy with the Pay before the Play!
A Major League AH has arrived.
Joe H
Takes one to know one, Thanks!
Two sure signs you're not in the "Major Leagues":
(1) Asking if you should require a deposit for $1500 worth of materials.
(2) Responding to such a question by insinuating you are above such practices.
How's the dog?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
If we do a little remodel, we are typically in an out in under the time it takes for the suppliers to even get us an invoice, and after invoicing, we have generous terms for the time by which to pay.
For little remodels, we've never thought we needed money upfront to avoid having to "finance" material purchases. We're not buying stuff for cash at Home Depot. I'll bet you aren't either.
The only suppliers we deal with that require money up front are the RTA cab makers, and since they take credit cards, we use them for getting lotsa air miles.
None of our subs get deposits from us. Work is billed for when complete.
The only reason for getting a deposit to to ensure the owner is serious. Period.
I am always amazed at the ferocity of the responses from the folks here when it comes to the question of upfront money. It sounds to me like the wails of those living hand to mouth in an all-cash economy, and I know it ain't all cash, and also that most are not living hand to mouth.
I'm running a business. That means I need a steady income. I have overhead that goes beyond whether or not Mrs. Mulcaheys lumber bill is due. I also don't necessarily run one job at a time. I also don't make my subs wait for a project to be completed in order to get payed.
I like to keep a consistent balance in the business account. The best way I have found to do this is with timely payment schedules.
Do I vary this practice? Sure. From time to time. I did yesterday as a matter of fact.
But with bills coming in from many directions, I don't see any reason to finance someone elses project.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
And I don't see any reason to finance YOUR business. Your overhead is your problem, not the customers. Do I finance the car dealerships lot? Of course not, at least not until I ACTUALLY TAKE POSSESSION OF A CAR.You provide financing for your business. That is what entitles you to earn a PROFIT. Your capital.Yes, we do multi-million dollar contracts. No, we don't get money in advance (except on certain types of grants, where the money is pass through).
And I don't see any reason to finance YOUR business. Your overhead is your problem, not the customers. Do I finance the car dealerships lot? Of course not, at least not until I ACTUALLY TAKE POSSESSION OF A CAR.
Guess what in my state once I nail something to your house it's yours, I can't take it back legally if you don't want to pay. Why would I nail my 2x4's to your house?
Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
stilletto,
you are perfectly right about this.----------In Bryans state---which is also mine--and Pete's----------------
once the materials ARE delivered( not even installed--but just delivered)------------ it can be pretty murky legally WHO they belong to
plus---------I can have materials delivered February 27 on MY credit account------but they are gonna have to be paid for March10------or it COSTS me
compared to delivery March 1----I have untill April10
MY credit line is for MY convenience---not the customers
In practice----if it's a one day job under $1000------I will take a flyer and not get a deposit
Over $1000 or longer than a one day job---50% deposit---which is usually MORE than the materials alone.
As far as subcontracting---- why would I? I know MANY homeowners I considered it a PRIVILEGE to work for----and they ALL paid deposits.-----why would I venture into an LOWER paying area of business--------that won't pay deposits. Frankly---I can't think of ANY G.C.s that I would consider it a PRIVILEGE to work for----especially ones that want me to finance THEM, LOL.
Stephen
I won't carry a credit line for someone else's project.
People call you and I knowing who and what they are going to get, they aren't worried if we are going to run off with their money.
Some people are against the money down thing, thats fine. Why are they against it? Because they are protecting themselves. Just like you and I are doing requiring money down.
Long story short: Get a group of subs you can trust. Stop shopping around for the cheapest sub for every project. Then it would be easier to give money down. Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
I agree with your method/practice.
Just wanted to offer this for comment.
I am working on a small project, $3500 for a church. will take one week to complete.
They gave me a scope of work, I gave them a proposal. Payment to be made as follows: Paid in full upon substantial completion.
I didn't feel right about asking for a deposit and it seemed like it would be more trouble getting a check to start rather that just doing the work and then getting paid.
I won't pay for matl's until after they pay me, assuming they pay on time.
My justification for this practice was to not be seen as living hand to mouth.
Thoughts?
What if they don't pay? Then your lumberyard still wants their money. You want to go back to your yard to start working as a carpenter and not a bank but can't you owe them money.
SO now you havve to pay for their materials to go back to your lumberyard. See where this is going? Now that job for the church with $1,000 in materials has cost you the original amount of the bid plus the grand in materials. As well as possibly any jobs that may have been turned down because of the church.
I have done some work without a down payment, but it comes at a price. Material markup goes automatically to 65%, labor gets an hourly boost too.
Hey the customer is in the high risk pool not wanting to give a down payment. You want me to finance the project like a bank then I will act like a bank.
Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
That is the point I am making. If a sub contractor appears to be living hand-to-mouth, then I am going to have trouble trusting in his abilities and reliabilities.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Seems to me this is about two things -- the time value of money (loans) and a sort of payment bond.First off, on a really large project one party -- could be contractor, could be customer -- would likely get a construction loan. If the contractor carries the loan then he would add the cost of the loan to the final project cost. Similarly, if the contractor carries a smaller project, without interim payments, he's "entitled" to add the "time value of money" (ie, interest) to his total price. Either way, the customer (rightfully) pays.Second is bonding. In some cases a contractor might require that a customer take out a bond to assure payment. If this were done, and for some reason the contractor paid for the bond (or perhaps for some sort of insurance against non-payment), that cost would/should end up in the project final bill. If there is no bond, the contractor is effectively self-insuring, and must add the fractional cost of legal fees, collection agencies, bad debts, etc to the project final bill.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
The contractor already has a way of forcing the issue. Liens.What about a bond by the contractor that he won't run away with the money.I am trying to find Cloudhidden's story about his excuvator, but can't.A couple of hours early advanced search was working, but not know..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I agree that it works both ways. But enforcing a lien costs money and time. And time is money. And sometimes it turns out there's no blood in the turnip.Per your point about contractors walking away with the money, yes, that's also a common problem, and in places like Florida and Louisiana, where lots of folks are desperate and lots of outside contractors come in, it's apt to be the larger problem by far.But two wrongs don't make a right, and just because there are bad contractors doesn't mean there aren't also bad customers.My point was that, if you don't get part of the money up front, you must, necessarily, increase your prices, if you want to maintain the same margin. It's simple economics.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I have an example of a job going now that I took material money down.
1,400 sq of shingles @ $50 a sq.+ sales tax and delivery= $75,000. 2 pallets of coil nails2 pallets of drip edge8 pallets of Ice and Water shield16 pallets of tar paper20 pallets of ridge cap6 Pallets of ridge vent2 pallets of cap staples,nails
This is a roof job I am doing, close to $150,000 in materials. But the stickler on this job is, it's being done in two stages. 70% first stage, 30% second stage.
I had to order all the shingles at once, to ensure the colors would match.
I couldn't imagine anyone of you saying that money down is bad wouldn't require materials down on this job. Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
My biggest roof job to date was just over half that size.
I think it was 780 square +/-
By the way, that's a lot of shingle, what kind of building is it?
Anyhow, did it all at once, in less than a month's time.
and then billed for it at the end of the month. Took another 45 days or so to get paid. That's how it works.
I seem to recall materials totaling 65-68k on that. Could be wrong as that was a few years ago.
If you want to be big time then you have to be ready to operate accordingly is how I see it.
I wanted to add (on edit) that the beauty of how this works is that it creates the ability to earn better money and eliminate so much of the lesser competition. That's why i've gotten into so much more commercial work than residential these days.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Edited 3/21/2007 9:29 pm ET by PeteDraganic
It's a nursing home, existing building that they are putting additions on. The additions are being built now, we are roofing them.
Once the additions are up and running they are going to move the patients into them and work on the existing building.
The existing building has a flat roof, they are going to put steel trusses on it and we are going to shingle it.
I have 4 guys roofing this job, me and three others. It's not going to take a month to do.
Why only 4 guys roofing? Because the guys putting the plywood down can't stay ahead of us for long. I take a week off and frame a house, come back and they have 100 sheets put on. We shingle that in a few hours then go do something else.
Different situation than yours, I could have had it done in a month. THey weren't willing to pay for it.
Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
That's funny, mine was an assisted living facility too
All that building on one floor makes for a lot of roof.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
stilleto--------to be clear--- i don't mind subbing work OUT
I just have no desire to sub work IN
to many "alphas"--wanting me to carry their costs and work for peanuts per square and wait 30-60-90 days for the "privilege "of doing business with them.
Best wishes, stephen
I rarely sub things out, rare occasion, but it does happen.
I have gone through a few GC's who wanted me to help carry their debts for months at a time.
Some don't mind doing it, I'm not one of them. Those that don't mind doing it end up broke. Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
stephen.. don't forget us gamma males... with the little alpha female kicking our azz out the door to get to workMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike---------- i don't know what a " gamma" is.
makes me wonder------- that old adage--"people are either leaders or followers"------when i KNOW there is a third type-----people who don't want to lead OR follow----just want to pursue their own agenda---------- is that the "gamma"?
seems like on Nature one time----there was this episode where the alpha animal spent so much energy fighting all the beta males in the herd to maintain his position--------that this male that wasn't even in the group waltzed in and nailed all the cows in the herd-------------- is that the gamma?
I AM pretty sure----an Alpha doesn't even consider going chest to chest with a truck driver over $300
and i am pretty sure an alpha doesn't tie up 65K of his own money in somebody elses project----while he wonders how he is gonna send his kids to college. Pretty sure an alpha sends his kids to college----and lets other people finance THEIR projects on THEIR dime.
60 degrees here with rain and high winds----guess I won't climb up on that slate roof today----------- i need one more good day up top-----then 3 easy ,safe days down low--and I am out of there and on to the next project.
stephen
Stilletto: This is a roof job I am doing, close to $150,000 in materials.
PeteDraganic: My biggest roof job to date was just over half that size.
If you want to be big time then you have to be ready to operate accordingly is how I see it.
Remind me again....who's "big time" in this scenario?
; )
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Being that I didn't need a downpayment? I guess that answer is me...lol.
Now you know that answer is going to catch me he!! from certain people here who think I am the big mean monster of BT. Why do you want to get me in trouble?
Sorry Stilletto, he was egging me on.
You know, I'll be honest. As much as a downpayment being normal sounds like a good thing, it isn't. If downpayments on these type jobs were normal, it would instantly quadruple (or more) my competition. The fact that I can supply such amount of materials is what keeps me in the advanced league.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
You want the big time stuff? You can have it.
Too much drama for me.
I have 5 bosses on that roof, can't stand one of them. So when it's raining I have to tell at least 5 people why we aren't roofing.
Or explain to them why their drywall is getting wet when the roof sheathing isn't even done yet. Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
No doubt that much drama exists.
But that is the cost of being in business. We could all go the easy route and get a job working for someone else. I wouldn't want to (at least most of the time). Again, their is a price to pay for the benefits gained.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
So next week you get a 750,000$ job with 400,000 in materials. You start the project your in 3 weeks and the materials are on credit and the business pulls an Enron on you do you have insurance or are you going to be able to eat it?
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Under Ohio law, the materials either on or off site, purchased for the completion of the job, are typically the property of the contractor (assuming that he purchased them as part of the contract).
Once those materials are attached to the house, they are the property of the homeowner.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Great subject and discussion. I'm running similarly to Pete D and Gene D.
Funny thing about customers, you always get a "feeling " about them, and 9 times
out of 10, your gut feeling is right. I never even do a quote or proposal if the initial
contact is not credible...sorry..we can't fit you in just now...or.... maybe so and so
(our competition) might be a better fit for your job.:-)
"I've 4 quotes already, heard you were good, when will you have it ready for me?"
That's an easy one to decline.
Just wondering, do any of you "pre-qualify" your customers by way of a "credit app" ?
Or do any of you ask for a "letter of credit" from the primary lender?
Or "letter of direction" from the clients lawyer?
On bigger stuff, we often see the structure closed in, before a Lender makes
a draw for the client, and then our cheque is cut. This can take a bit of time.
Not every HO has the coin in their pocket, so, if you want to roll more dollars
you have to be prepared to work efficiently and budget for a bit of interest . eh?
good luck arguing that one after you have 40 sq. of shingles delivered rooftop--------------------
stephen
edit:--this referrs to who owns on site materials in Ohio---------
Edited 3/22/2007 6:42 am ET by Hazlett
"And I don't see any reason to finance YOUR business. "
then U shouldn't.
simple.
I require a deposit.
if U want to work with me ... that's the rules.
simply your decision on whether or not U want the best.
I don't fight with people when they question the deposit. I simply explain ... that's how I work. All of my customers sign the contract and sign the start check. I'm aware there are alot of other contractors/subs out there who don't require this.
If you'd like me to hold open a spot in my schedule ... I'll need that sig and check.
simple.
Just say No.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You're not financing my business. You are paying for my services.
This isn't a car dealership....apples and oranges.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I agree. A business needs working capital and a contracting business needs a fair amount of it. I'll sometimes ask for a materials or scheduling deposit, but I don't need either and it's not the first check that can be problematic anyway. Personally, I would never give someone 30% of a contract up front, and would feel ridiculous asking for that unless I were using a lot of special-order materials. Customers are far more comfortable paying for what's on the job, and that's the way I do it. On small jobs I can finish the work and get paid before I pay my vendors anyway.
To me, the most important thing is the owner's signature on my contract and their initials on each page--far more important than up front money.
we having a big time with hurricane contractor demanding huge down payments and never coming back. It so bad the state is telling people not to pay anything down.
A business needs working capital and a contracting business needs a fair amount of it.
Ding,ding,ding!
Which is exacly how I maintain just that.
I'm thinking anyone doing a project with $1500 in materials, and wondering if they should require a deposit hasn't yet built that capital. Just a good business practice to begin.
The days of handshakes and signatures were wonderful. But anyone starting out today, ought not pretend they still exist.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
You know, it varies. First time we had our house reroofed we had a guy who was fairly new to the business (less than 2 years) do it. It was clear he was living hand to mouth. I had no problem with something like $200 deposit, half on the day he started (2-day job with his crew, shingles had been delivered), and half after final inspection. Was a little hard-nosed on the final -- had him fix a couple of minor details before paying. (But I was more than satisfied with his work, and we recommended him to several friends, who were also similarly pleased.)Second time (damn Certainteed shingles) we used a larger outfit (it appears that the first guy had gone under due to the Certainteed thing). They wanted something like $300 deposit and billed us the rest by mail after the job was done.Had our furnace replaced and they didn't even take a deposit. Billed us by mail after the job was done. (Again, a fairly large outfit.)I've got no problem with any of these approaches. I cerainly would not go for some of the scam approaches, though, where a contractor gets half in advance for a big job (before any materials are delivered or a single nail is driven), then is "too busy" to get to it, until he's hit enough marks and takes a powder. In the ideal situation both parties have some skin in the game.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Edited 3/21/2007 10:39 am by DanH
Are you using a tailored version of the stuff found in the "Legal Kit?"
Ain't it great? The initials on each page are a great touch, and for me, as for you, are a far greater indication of the client's "seriousness" than the deposit, if we even are getting one.
If a sub ever came at me for upfront money and spoke the words about "not financing," I would dismiss him and find another.
>>If a sub ever came at me for upfront money and spoke the words about "not financing," I would dismiss him and find another.<<
Why?
I require money down.
I don't finance any part of the project. Just limiting my liability.
Material money up front, then labor after the job.
I will buy materials for a job, but it would be ALOT cheaper if you big time GC's bought them. Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
When a sub asks for money down, I assume that he is not established enough and therfore not reliable enough to do business with.
You're young still. You'll gain perspective as you age.
If you don't want the liability, then don't be in business for yourself.... be an employee somewhere instead.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
"When a sub asks for money down, I assume that he is not established enough and therfore not reliable enough to do business with."
My point exactly! I'll honor an invoice for material on site, as well as an invoice for work completed, but I will stand fast against money ahead of its due.
You can assume all you want. But thats all it is an assumption. I require material money down. If the GC or customer isn't willing to pay for the materials now, what makes you think they want to pay for them after you're done?
I believe I said I wanted limited liability. If you don't look for ways to limit it you are asking to get screwed. THen you can go clog the courts crying about this guy owes you money.
Go ahead and roll the dice man, I prefer not to gamble with my money.
Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
or he's established himself as a valuable commodity.
I'm a fairly popular guy, when it comes to sub work. I usually have the privilege of deciding who I work with. Even when times are tough ... I hold to my standards.
I won't start a new job without a start check.
Just part of my contract.
U and Gene don't like that ... fine by me ... we'd just never work together.
I'm not holding a spot open in my schedule.
and I don't finance any one elses remodeling project.
That's what banks are for.
if a customer doesn't trust me enough to give a materials deposit, fine.
suddenly I don't trust them so much.
if a GC doesn't pay start checks ... fine ... suddenly I don't trust him so much.
I have been burned ... both on purpose and accidents in life.
Have had GC's call for weeks making sure I'd "be there Monday" ... to find the job "didn't go thru" ... sometimes they BS ... sometimes the job fell thru. Either way ...
it cost me money. Not money directly outta my pocket ... but cost me money I woulda make had that job gone thru. Up front money lights a fire under everyone.
Everyone's committed.
Got a question ... OK ... U and Gene won't kick up a start check.
How about a "scheduling deposit"?
same thing to me ... samantics ... but that's what my contract says.
and speaking of contracts ... I work under mine.
when I sub ... I write up my own contract and include my own pay schedule.
some GC's like it ... some don't.
But I have positioned myself ... or convinced myself I have ... that I just walk if it's not under my terms. I'm good ... I'm worth a little extra hassle.
I'm special .. that's what makes me special.
or was that another thread?
either way ... I have a coupla goals in life. 2 of them being .. make money and lose stress. My way of conducting my business points me directly that direction.
I could hit the lotto tomorrow and I still ain't funding anyone's remodel but mine.
Set's a tone from the get go. I'm here to make money ... not to make friends.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff - well said!Brooks
You guys from Pittsburg are always trouble.
I don't know if you are speaking with relevence to the specific type work that you do. If so, I'd agree. For those that don't know, Jeff does a lot of kitchen-type work. He does fantastic work too.
That being said, when custom orders are involved such as cabinets and counters for instance, I would have no problem with payment for those materials in advance.
However, assuming that I didn't know Jeff, if he were a sub that was going to paint or do roofing or framing or drywall, I don't think I'd be amicable to downpayments at all.
Although, I do have to say that I often purchase materials and only hire subs for the labor portion, however that is not common to do in commercial trades.
Would you, Jeff, expect me to pay you in advance for labor only situations?
You do make a point whereas it relates to knowing the sub. In ceratin cases I might advance a sub if the conditions are right and I know him well enough. However, that type of relationship comes at no financial benefit to the sub. I would expect that he'd make less if I were bankrolling his operation.
Now, in the strictly residential market, I agree that downpayments serve a useful purpose. There is the retainage that proves earnest and payments for portions completed or about to be completed are appropriate too. Understanding the difference though in residential clients vs commercial clilents is integral to this discussion.
I do service work for a large national chain of restaurants. Would you expect them to give you a down payment for each non-custom project? I'll tell you that I don't et a nickle down. I bill them at net 15 and usually get paid before 30. Again, the prices I do certain things for reflect, among other things, my exposure to liability.
Any new home builders care to elaborate on how their bank draws work? Do you get advanced monies or only payments for work completed or materials stored.
FWIW, the standard in Commercial Work is that you bill at the end of the month for "work completed and materials stored on site".
I can also tell you that if I would ask for a downpayment on standard commercial work, I'd be laughed out of the office and the next bidder would be there to replace me.
The up side to the commercial arrangement is that the money is far better and I don't have to compete with all the hacks and minor league competition that is so common in residential work. Two completely different fields.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
pete... when i build new houses.. i make it clear to my customers that i don't use the bank's payment schedule.. we use mine
and i get deposits from my customers for new construction.. even if they have to find another source for the depositMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Would you, Jeff, expect me to pay you in advance for labor only situations?"
Yes.
That's exactly what I do when I sub tile work. The GC has the tile on site. Sometimes I set the backer board, sometimes it's all hung and I just come in and set the tile.
either way ... I'm holding open a spot in my schedule to do your work.
That requires a scheduling deposit.
signed contract ... and signed start check. Or call it a scheduling deposit if it makes everyone feel better. Labor only jobs too ... my time is my time materials or no materials.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
Do you ever sub any portion of your work out to others , and if so do you pay them a deposit ?
I read all the arguments about money down, I agree with 99%. But what do you do about those that take a deposit and never return
brownie,
That seems to be the concern of the consumer advoccy groups. One that I can easily understand. The State of Or. recomends no deposits unless you are absolutely certain of who you are dealing with. I have played it both ways depending on what I am attempting to achieve. Mollify a skittish customer because I want the work ? No or small deposit. Small job that will be done and paid for before I am money out of pocket? No deposit. New client, Big Job? Expensive start up costs? Deposit required. In years past I would stall the start of the house until just before the cutoff date for the local concrete companies billing day . Set footings then pour on the 1st. day of the cycle.. 60 day money, framing was up and roof, windows doors , siding etc. all done before I needed to pay for the concrete, lumber, windows roofing materials. I also pay deposits to those subs that request it, and also have some subs who just tell me pay me when you get the bill.
Not answering for Jeff....but as one who requires a deposit myself....yes, I do pay subs a deposit when requested.
Of course there are exceptions.....first time working together where I know materials are minimal might make me balk. But that is very rare.
I also don't always require a deposit when it is I working as the subcontractor. Small fill in job where I know the GC will have the money as I walk out the door.
But.....as a general rule...I require deposits and pay them to those who request them.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
yes I do ... all the time.
yes I do ... all the time ... what ever they want, I do.
I have what I think are the best subs out there ... each I truely is tops in their respective field. I met most of my subs while working as an employee for a very high end design/build firm. I figured ... I'd let them cull thru the herd.
Most of my subs I also consider to be friends. Working along side them first, while an employee, lends itself toward that. So ... when I sub them ... them ... or they bring me into a job they're on ... what ever anyone asks for ... they get. Plus respect.
If one of my regular subs said he needed 99% of the money down ... he'd get it.
What do I care how and when he's paid ... same money in the end ...
I'm already using them because I know they are the very best ... so if there's a mistake ... they'll be back to make it right.
With a brand new sub ... I give them their terms too. Wouldn't be 99% ... but if they needed a start check ... Hell Yeah ... 'cause I obviously got mine from said customer!
Good subs will make or break you.
Good subs are also very busy ... what ever time of year it is ... doesn't matter if everyone else is at home waiting for their phones to ring ... good subs are out working.
So me ... I do my very best to keep them happy. As a matter a fact .... when I do use subs ... I consider it my job to make their job easier. What ever they need ... they get.
Just today ... moved all my tools and a little site debris out of one bath and piled it all in the other at the end of the day. My plumber is coming some time tomorrow to take his first look-see at the work I need done. Everything I need him to look at ... is wide open ... with a clear path ... and shop vac's. I don't know what time he's stopping by ... I know his day is full and it is Fri ... so I want him to waste as little time on my site as possible.
I also called after I started demo to let him know I'd need him ... asked for as quick of a response as he can do ... didn't even ask for a ballpark. I know I'm using him ... I've guestimated a price for a plumbing allowance ... and what ever he quotes ... that's the price.
One bid ... all I need. I trust him to do good work ... also trust him to not screw me ...
so what ever he invoices for ... that's the price.
now that I mentioned the plumber ... gotta confess ... he's the one sub that doesn't ask for money up front ... ever. Even when I try to pay in full or pay early .... he balks.
Says his wife does the billing ... and early payments screw up her system.
always tells me Just pay it when U get it in the mail.
the rest of them ... if they ask they get. I am also very up front with them when I call for prices and they gotta take a look ... I let them know from the getgo ... if I think it's a "maybe" or I'm positive it's sold. For the maybes I try to use phone quote ballparks, so I'm not wasting their time.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks, I also do so .
Jeff: What an excellent post.And here there are guys BRAGGING (?) about being 65k out??? I don't get it.True North.
Who on earth was bragging about that? That's just the cost of bigger things.
It's a good thing too as I said, it limits the competition and increases the profit margin. There is always a value for the inconvenience.
I remember working to make 30 bucks for day's efforts.... self-employed doing handyman stuff. Even made a pittance on my first "big jobs" because I had a lot of learning to do.
Then I learned that it's a tough game to compete against every schmoe with a hammer that is also a contractor of some degree. One of my biggest pet peeves is the lack of regulation here in Ohio.
Anyhow, the bigger you get, the more it takes. BUT the benefits are worth it... isn't that how it's supposed to work?
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
"Anyhow, the bigger you get, the more it takes. BUT the benefits are worth it... isn't that how it's supposed to work?"It is, it's only reasonable. I believe Stiletto mentioned a markup of 65% and an increase in his hourly rate if he has to work without a deposit.But man, $65k out would scare the tar out of me! Here's an idea of the scale I work on: my biggest job ever grossed at about $55,000. It was a rough in saltbox house I built about 6 years ago. I guess that makes me small potatoes, huh? ; )TN
Don't think for a minute that I don't sweat those big jobs. Honestly. But if I want to get to the "next level" then I know that there is some risk involved. I don't want to be the lone carpenter swinging a hammer until I die.
I see that a number of guys here need to knock me on this matter. I can only assume it is their own insecurites prompting the insults.
Truth is that business is business.
I see too many guys living hand-to-mouth in this business and I was too... for a long time. I finally realized that if I want to get ahead, I have to be bigger than a one man show. It is hard to get too far ahead when you're so busy working... as funny as that sounds. Add to that my feelings that too mnay of you guys sell yourselves too cheaply. I understand that it's tough competition, especially in the residential trades, and that causes the need for underselling.
Don't get me wrong because I still find myself underselling my services. Especially in residential jobs. I think it is just that old mindset is hard to break. Mike Smith told me something once about this. That I only think a price sounds too high because I wouldn't pay that much for it. That was an excellent point. However, there is also the fear of being underbid... especially when things are slow or you are trying to get your foot in the door somewhere or a myriad of other reasons like keeping guys busy.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
From a little guy’s perspective…getting burnt is a way of life, you just need to find a way to minimize it. I work small jobs, anywhere from $500 to $5,000 (usually doing the small stuff no one else wants to mess with). Sometimes, the job is time and materials, other times it is a fixed price job. Obtaining a deposit on a one day job is a waste of time and makes one look shady, in my neighborhood. I am paid at the end of the day or I hang around for dinner and desert. Fixed price jobs require a deposit 5 days prior to the start of the job. No check, no work and I move on. If the client cannot pay me then, I have to wonder if they will pay me at the end. I seem to get burnt in the middle, mostly working the 2-3 page punch list of repairs. It seems that repeat clients are most likely to invoke the “I’ll leave you a check†story after what had been a good paying relationship. A few months ago, I tallied over $6,000 in outstanding invoices, some as small as $100, the largest being $2100, all for work completed within 45 days. The nickels and dimes add up fast. I am still trying to figure out a way to solve this problem and this discussion generates some interesting points of view. One thing I have learned to accept, the longer the driveway, the more trouble you will have collecting on a small bill.
Pete, good post."That I only think a price sounds too high because I wouldn't pay that much for it..."Man do I know that feeling!TN
I do that same thing pretty mush each and every bid I price.
add it all up ... and think ... Wow! That's a lotta money.
I also say all the time ... "I can't afford me".
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
True north----------
look carefully---------
it's the " alpha males" bragging about being 65K out
the Beta males--------are busy going to the bank to deposit customer checks!
and the Beta males-----know they can do MANY more smaller jobs in the time it will take the " alpha" to complete his monster job-----------------
reality is often----
that the "alphas"-----spending so much time asserting their Alphaness----and how they are "big time"----can be bought and sold all day long by the Betas.( ironic,huh,LOL)
I don't know-----but maybe an alphas constant need to assert alphaness---indicates they ain't so alpha after all??????
Gee this thread has been fun-------
stephen
"the Beta males--------are busy going to the bank to deposit customer checks!"
not true ...as in another thread I'm an alpha ...
also criticized for always agreeing with Pete!
guess some of those all too important noncarp idgits should get out of the tavern every now and then.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
We're gonna have to cover this one up..... otherwise we risk ruining our bad reputations here. LOL
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
there we go ...
being all ONE faced again.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
" the Beta males----are busy going to the bank to deposit customer checks"
try to have a lucid moment Jeff-----nothing in that statement--precludes YOU from going to the bank as well.
Btw,----------- i seriously doubt you are as alpha as you THINK you are---- If you were-- you would be secure enough not to have to tell us, LOL.
curious though---------who is shorter and has more tatoos---you or Pete?
BTW---look around---we aren't IN the tavern are we?
non carpenter idjit,
Stephen---------laughing out loud
I think this thread illustrates how much of an art it is to run a business. What works for one contractor wouldn't for someone else in the same market. Regional (cultural) norms play a large part, too.
I like what DanH (I think it was him) said about both parties having some skin at risk - puts you both in it together, on the same side of the table, instead of on opposite sides.
But this is a great example of why a lot of the advice given here just doesn't apply to every business. You simply can't reduce running a business to a science; there's a lot of art involved, too. Like a dance - you can learn the steps but until you personalize it a little, deviate from the norms, it won't be smooth and natural. Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Like most of life, there ain't no cookbook.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Stephen
This whole alpha, beta, gamm a, delta, epsilon stuff is killing me!
I'm of the school of thought that says that the so called "alpha's" are mearly acting out the alpha characteristics - because they so want to be one! We all have the ability to think and act as we chose, hell on any givin day one can be an alpha, gamm a or a sissy if we chose.
This thread and the employee key thread should be considered mandatory reading. <G>
Not since arguing with piffin on how to hang a cabinet(what screws to use) has this place brought such joy to me........... but maybe I'm easily ammused.
Doug
I think there are at least five factors involved, and each individual must somehow pick the best compromise between those four based on his circumstances:1) How big are you ($, not #) and how much of a hit can you absorb without having your business compromised?2) How reliable is your clientele? Are you confident they have the money? Are you confident they will pay promptly?3) How reliable are you? Have you established a reputation and track record that merits trust?4) What is the local "climate" -- what expectations are so well established that you shouldn't fight them?4a) With regard to your specific clientele, are they likely or unlikely to be the type that understands the logic of staged payments?5) What's your personal style? Conservative (money/risk-wise, not politically)? Risk-taker? Do you loathe having to deal with billing/bookkeeping so much that the extra work of a bad bill would drive you crazy?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan,
that's a pretty good list---something else I am thinking about
let's call it " making a virtue out of necessity'
or more accureately----------" doing what we WANT to do--and portraying it in the best light"
I used to have a roofing sub--- I considered him to be a dead honest guy. He sold his jobs advertising
" all work hand nailed"----and he put a lot of effort into explaing to homeowners how roofing--"hand nailed"was " better".
and he had a valid point---in that it's pretty much impossible to overdrive a roofing nail by hand----cause the roofing hatchet acts as a positive stop gauge---so nails were not gonna blow through the shingle like they sometimes do with air guns
BUT----his crews almost always " high nailed" and were always tempted to " short nail"-----which pretty much negated any hand nailing advantage
but WHY did he WANT to hand nail?????????????
Well--he never got on the roof himself----and he liked having a big crew---which he 1099'd--or just paid cash
he would have a couple laborers-----at $60/day-----and about 3 shinglers in the $85-$100/day range--and his "top" guy made $115/day
they would start at 8:00-8:30 each morning---and buy 10:30-11:30 have half a house torn off and felted in-----they would all go off to lunch for an hour-----he bought the whole crew lunch EVERY day.------about 12:00-12:30 they would all come back from lunch----and install the roof and clean up---usually by 3:00 they were cleaned up and gone for the day
you add it up--they were only actually working 5-6 hours a day---the whole crew only did maybe 5-7 squares a day------per man they were only tearing off and re-roofing about 1 square per man----and counting lunch---it was only costing the boss less than $550/ day
anyhow----That's how he liked to work--still does-----and he sold it as a "virtue"
this deposit/no deposit---is much the same
want a deposit????? present it as" I am busy, I am in demand, If you want me you are going to have to wait, I will be expensive, and since I am in demand you will have to pay a deposit to get on my schedule"--- of course I dress it up a little nicer than that--but that's the gist
taking the opposite tact-------and NOT chargeing a deposit----------- i could easily imply that anybody requiring a deposit---is an undercapitalized, fly by night who will probably go belley up mid project
it's all a sales tactic---that we pretend actually means something---but in reality-we just justify what we WANT to do, I think,
Best wishes,
Stephen
Actually, I think I covered your point in my tagline.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>>>>>>>>>want a deposit????? present it as" I am busy, I am in demand, If you want me you are going to have to wait, I will be expensive, and since I am in demand you will have to pay a deposit to get on my schedule"-I seldom work for civilians, most of my work is as a sub. Buck described the realtionships I have with my GC's pretty well. We are respectful of one another and working toward the same goal: Doing good work and making good money. I don't take deposits upfront from a GC I have a history with (I've been working with one contractor for nearly 30 years in two different businesses), but I make progress billings to fit their pay schedules. Homeowners are a different subject. I take 10% with a signed contract just to get on the schedule and another 25% the day we start. If I don't get the 10%, I don't start. I'll probably only ever get one job from each homeowner, but a good GC is a goldmine. If a homeowner wants to pull me away from GC work, then they have to give me some money. http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
"We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?"
doug--- I would agree with you--in that I find this topic really fascinating--and HUGE fun
where I think I might disagree is-----how much we actually have the ability to think and act as we choose------------ i haven't worked that out in my mind quite yet.
theoretically--we have that ability---but in actual practice?????????
some people are compelled to act in that" alpha" way I think, regaurdless of the results. In theory--they could "choose" to act a different way-----but that would involve CONSIDERABLE self awareness and dicipline to go against what is pretty much their nature
and for myself--and possibly you------well I kind of felt"compelled" to point out, "nah--ya ain't as alpha as you think you are"----and what purpose does THAT serve?
hmmmmmmm,---does my subconscious mind think" ya ain't as alpha as ya think ya are?"---cause subconsciously I think "I" am MORE alpha??????
now that's funny--- I would really HATE that if THAT'S true!!!!!
I better go do some flower arrangeing to damp down that idea------- but wait---today's my day to lift weights-----damn, i am SOOO conflicted.
Stephen
I had a lawyer write my contract, with input from me, some of which I took from the Legal Kit. The main reason it's important is because my terms on payment are fairly strict--3 days to pay an invoice, 18% interest added to any late balance, legal fees to the prevailing party if action is required, etc. I get signatures on every little thing, initials on pages that don't get signatures, etc. People sign a copy of the pre-lien notice along with the contract. It is time consuming, formal, and very clean, and I like to think it deters people from deciding not to pay. My feeling is that doing business without a good contract makes it much more likely that you will have a client try to not pay you. I know a lot of people like their 1-page and 2-page simple contracts but I couldn't use one.
Excellent post
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
gene.. obviously .. your business model is different than mine
<<
None of our subs get deposits from us. Work is billed for when complete.
The only reason for getting a deposit to to ensure the owner is serious. Period.
I am always amazed at the ferocity of the responses from the folks here when it comes to the question of upfront money. It sounds to me like the wails of those living hand to mouth in an all-cash economy, and I know it ain't all cash, and also that most are not living hand to mouth.>>>
i always get deposits.. ALWAYS
and some of my subs want front money...
i plan the cash flow of the job .. and make sure the cash that is flowing is the cash that came out of the job .. not out of my capital..
the only time my capital gets into play is when i screw up , and don't plan right... some sequence takes longer than i intended, so we can't bill .. then my capital carries us until the job can make it right again..
everything that goes into the job .. enriches the Owner.... not me.. so i want to get paid for it
when you have more money in the job it tells me your payment schedule is wrong
the payment schedule is very important... one way i keep my subs happy is by prompt payment... whose money is going to be used to ensure prompt payment ? mine ?... or the party who benefits.. the Homeowner ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, deposits don't work here. Period. There's no one like you or anybody else here that does remods or new builds and asks for upfront money.
You are in a much bigger neighborhood than the one in which we operate. Furthermore, as you well know, practices vary widely by locale.
That doesn't mean it can't be done, but in practice here, with everyone, from the middle class folks up to the super rich, getting at least a couple prices for virtually anything they want done, and never hearing a request for a "deposit," that it would be tough.
But that said, we subscribe absolutely to your principal of no out of pocket cash outlays ahead of payments. We'll structure an owner's payment schedule such that we are never ever called upon to pay a supplier or subcontractor invoice without having received enough in progress payouts to cover.
For example, if we are gonna show up on day one with truckloads of scaffolding, a big lumber delivery, and do some serios demo in the next couple days, a big check might be due as soon as the demo wraps up. And "due" means, "here's the bill, right per the agreement. Would you like to borrow my pen to write the check?"
And as for subs getting paid, ours see their money from us promptly, and for the most of them, far sooner than they see it from other GCs.
So, aren't we really on the same page, here?
almost...
but...
i know there are some states that will not allow deposits..
i just wouldn't work in those states.....
what do you do when you hire an architect ? give him a retainer ?
a lawyer ? .... retainer ?
me.......? retainer...
i got employees... every week they get paid... one of the reasons people hire us is because i have a crew......... it is absolutely amazing how fast pay day rolls around.....
i have to scramble a couple times a year to keep the ball rolling... deposits are god's way of telling me if my schedule is empty or not...
when i have my customer's money , i'm pretty sure i have the work (contract )....... no money.. no contract... no schedule...
bye, bye, guys and gals.... here's the number for Unemployment Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'll say it again. Upfront money won't work in this town I'm in.
Furthermore, nobody's doing any design/build of the type you specialize in. Little shed roof popout? The owners will hire an architect, of which there are quite a few hereabouts, and their numbers are exceeded only by the lawyers and real estate agents.
Now, those owners may be paying some upfront fees to the archies. I cannot say, except that I can say I don't pay my attorneys upfront money.
And with the architect's drawings all done and pretty, and in the owners' hands, come the requests for proposals.
But all that said, Mike, I'm totally with you on the cash flow thing, and our payments are structured so there's no negative flowout.
I usually write my small job contracts so I get $X at signing, $Y upon delivery of the bulk of the materials, and the remainder as appropriate to the job. With known customers, sometimes I'll front the lumber, but not for long.
Its always been for me a "small" deposit to secure a date then 1/3 "upon start" and I don't have more material than a portion of that 1/3 will buy the day I start so...its reasonable for all concerned.
I usually will bring just enough material with me to get started for a few days then have a delivary for the rest as I get paid through the job.
Its usually the last payment you'd need to be concerned about which is why its a good idea to never let that payment become to large.
"When you point your finger, you got three long fingers pointing back at you". Mark Knophler
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Big time contractors want the customer to finance their construction business? That's laughable. (tic...;-)
I've been out 65k without getting a dime in advance. That is the price to be in this business sometimes, however, I will admit that the norm for residential construction is money first, work and materials later.
I know lot of guys that try to charge 10% retainage, then 30% before start, 30% at another stage and then 30% upon completion... or some similar arrangement.
Of course, if you are a sub, then you cover all your costs and get paid a month or two (hopefully) later after billing for it.
Sometimes, the job is so minor timewise that it is more trouble to keep getting payments and just easier and more proffesional (imho) to just do it and collect at the end.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I have my contracts written so that materials costs must be paid befire any of those materials are installed -- sepcifically stated that way.
It may not be the best, but at least if I get burned, I have a small chance of returning the materials and getting some money back.
Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now. And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.
Get the money up front. I tell my customers that I'm not VISA or Master Card but will carry them for up to $50 which they'll reimburse me at the end of the day. I spell this out on the agreement. Speaking of agreements, maybe you should have a sit down chat about yours with an attorney to make sure it fits your work. Got mine reviewed for free with a layer I did work for. He was actually impressed that I wrote it myself. Suggested a few grammar corrections though.
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Building as thou art paranoid never harmed anyone.
> Suggested a few grammar corrections though.That's scary. I've found lawyers to have some of the worst written grammar of anyone who commonly works with word.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I got lucky.Best to you and yours, Chris.
Building as thou art paranoid never harmed anyone.
If its custom stuff then you need a deposit to order.
if its off the shelf then its up to you but get a payment to cover it before you install any of it.
Long time no problem customers it all up to you!
I am a HO; here is my experience. All of the reputable renovation contractors in my area (NB Canada) bill at the end of the job, or in monthly installments based on percent complete.
For new home construction, there are some who want a 10% down and progress payments, but there are many who build you a custom home with 100% due on completion. And these are $500k homes.
But I guess we operate in a different sphere of trust levels. Too bad for you guys out there I guess.
In our area, if the guy wants too much up front, he's a shyster. That's the single biggest red flag going. But, as I said, that's our area. Your mileage may vary, as they say.
HammerHarry,
I work in Nova Scotia in much the same sort of financial climate you describe and I hate it and want to change it. I have far too often found myself carrying the cost of a job on my credit and my resources and it is simply way too much risk. It isn't so much a question of trust as it is of who gets the benefit of that risk?
I am paying close attention to this discussion.
As for the custom jobs like a new house, the builder might be building for a specific homeowner to a supplied design but he'll hold the title to the place until the last dollar is paid.
Ron
ron....
<<As for the custom jobs like a new house, the builder might be building for a specific homeowner to a supplied design but he'll hold the title to the place until the last dollar is paid>>
depends on real estate law where you work
here they are called Owners because they Own the property... you can't hold title unless you own it .. in which case it is a spec house
now .. some states are different .. i think Michigan is one.... i don't really know how that works
but here.. the owner of the land is the owner of the house... .. first he owns the foundation.. then the structure.. evry time you fasten something to the house it becomes theirs..
you can lien the property.. but you can't hold title unless you owned it to begin with
hey... got the "Prince of the Marshes"...it's about 4 down on the pile.. thanks..
did you book a place for DinoFest yet ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Hammer Harry
It's the same thing everywhere I have ever heard of - yu have to own the land to own the structure on it, but if you have a sale contract with an agreed price before beginning construction then it isn't a spec house any more. And it sounds a lot safer for a competent builder.
Ron
"As for the custom jobs like a new house, the builder might be building for a specific homeowner to a supplied design but he'll hold the title to the place until the last dollar is paid."
Builder doesn't hold title if the homeowner owns the lot. In these cases, the homeowner bought the lot, then hired a builder. He who owns the lot, owns the property. It's been done that way with at least 3 houses on my street, they're all $500K houses. I know the builder by aquaintance, the homeowners personally. It works for them; mind you, all it means is that the cost of money is built into the equation. I was surprised that he worked this way, because our builder didn't, but it works for him.
It really doesn't matter how the payments are structured, if the cost of money and the credit risk is factored into the equation.
I don't know how common it is, but more than once I have seen title transfer recorded from the owner to the builder and then back agin 9 months later..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Building new custom homes, we only require mobilzation funding upfront....permits, engineering, plans sets, T Pole, water tap, saftey fencing, port o potty and the like...all expenses and management cost related to things we need to get ready for start of actual construction.
Our compensation typically comes from construction financing with a bank. The banks do not pay until work is complete. The bank limits our draws to once a month. Working capitol and credit lines with our vendors keep the ball rolling smoothly along.
Yes, we are financing the client's project, but a line item in "our eyes only" home cost / overhead is a carrying charge for our working capitol. We calculate and charge about 10 APR on the revolving capitol....it is better than a return on a savings account or CD, and (technically) doubles itself at 10% every 7.2 years.
NOTE: The rule of 72. Divide 72 by your return rate to give you the number of years it takes for you investment to double.
the only time you should be floating a job with your money is when you are the one holding up the next payment. sometimes I have a few jobs going at once and all are close to completion. then I float my dough till I finish jobs and get paid. Always try to stay ahead on materials. eating labor when a job goes bad is one thing, buying materials and not getting paid is just foolish.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini