I’m in the designing stage for a new home. I’d like to know if there is a big cost savings (material cost savings) using 7′-9″ studs vs using 8 foot studs? In the big picture, does it effect how much plywood sheathing is used to cover those studs, sheet rock…etc. I realize there’s probably no cost savings in labor…. but wondering about the material cost difference…
Thank you….
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Replies
There is a significant savings in labor if you use 7' 9" studs vs 8' studs.
You will pay more for labor on the exterior sheathing and the drywall.
I'd also up my labor bill to you because of the headache factor. I would make the assumption that there will be a lot more "surprises" and upcharge at least 10% but maybe as much as 25%. If I was busy enough, I'd probably not even offer a bid.
To me, it's obviously a big deal. To someone else, it might not be a blip on their radar.
Edit: the "normal" stud is 92 5/8" in the regions I've built in.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 7/10/2008 1:18 pm by Jim_Allen
I should have also mentioned.... If I were to use 8 foot studs... the length would not be cut. They would be used full length. If I were to use 7'9" studs, same thing... they would be used full length. Used with single bottom plate and double top plates.
Edited 7/10/2008 1:21 pm ET by toycept
I understood that you were trying to save labor by not asking us to cut them. I based my answer on you using a full 96" stud. My framing labor bid would be at least 20% more if you tell me you are going to ship all 96" studs and ask me to use them that way without cutting them. I don't want to cut them either. 25% more if you ship them and make me cut them. Either way, if you insist, you will be paying a premium becuase I'll have to factor in the stand around time to educate you. In my earlier years I wouldn't have even agreed to bid. I'm old and mellow now and my guys would have to deal with your "new ideas". Please understand that I'm not making fun of you, I'm just trying to give you an honest answer. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I wonder if he thinks that 8' lumber is really 8' 0" long?I've never seen any that is...
The safeguard of morality is religion, and morality is the best security of law as well as the surest pledge of freedom. [Alexis De Tocqueville]
They do have 96" studs in most any lumber yard that I've worked with, so getting them that long won't be a problem. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Around here the only thing that are cut to length are 92 5/8" and 104 5/8" studs. Everything else runs 1/2" to 3/4" long.
Stages in breaking up:
1. Yelling and chocolate,
2. Replacements,
3. Getting pissed with friends, and
4. Poetry. [Kate Armstrong]
That's not surprising. When the topic was discussed here, there were all sorts of different "standard" length studs shipped. The variety was surprising to me too. I've never seen one 1/2" longer. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I think around here you can buy 8" lumber, it doesn't have to be stud grade, which means that I probably runs 1/2 to 3/4" long. If it is stamped stud grade, 8' is 8'. 7'9" is a new size to me, but is close to 92 5/8".
Jim my precut 92 5/8s are actually 92 1/2. Maybe they fluctuate with the economy.
Check your tape measure. It's entirely possible that your studs are 92 1/2 but I've never seen them that size. I have seen a lot of defective tapes though. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I frame on cape cod and around here 8' studs are quite common. I don't charge extra as it is no more work for me using 8' or 92 5/8". You do not use more material as the drywallers can use door and window cutouts to fill the gap left along the floor by using two 48" sheets horizontally. This seam is the covered by the baseboard, seems fairly straight forward to me. Wish I had enough work to up bids 25% because studs are 3 1/2" longer than I wanted but not the case around here.
The 25% upcharge wouldn't be because of the extra work. It would be because I'd know I was building for an inexperienced builder who most likely would fail to meet the conditions I require to offer optimum pricing. If framing was common with 96" studs, that reasoning wouldn't be valid. Since I've never seen it done it represents something "weird" to me. I've been in business long enough to recognize "weird" and know that a 25% upcharge will usually be enough. Sometimes it's not and then the upcharge might go up. Right now, I'm at 25% thinking but as I get older it might go up to 50%. As for the "no extra work statement, I tend to disagree. Cape Codder rywallers must not mind filling in the tapered edge on the bottom of the drywall that shows above the base trim. I rarely use base that would cover the 4.5" gap + the taper, so I'd have to be asking the mud guys to bend over and tape that seam. I'm sure the upcharge wouldn't be worth the reward. As a framer, I'd be very disappointed in the structural results of having the top of the 8' sheathing miss the top plate. I'd really be frustrated cutting and nailing a 4" piece of exterior sheathing to fill the gap on a one story ranch knowing that I was losing a significant amount of shear value in spite of the extra work I was putting in. I'd also be a tad frustrated dealing with the extra 4" cripples that I would have to add over the downstairs windows. Typically, on an 8' ceiling, the windows line up with the doorwall, which is set at 6-10 or so above the finished floor. The other windows are usually easy to install level with the doorwall by using a 2x12 and a simple filler, usually a 1x4 or 2x4. The extra 4.5" would force me to cut small cripples (6" or less) and nail them over the header. I'm not the kind of guy that just overlooks that type of nonsense and donates it free to rookie builders. I don't mind if they want a custom height...just don't ask me to take it out of my pension fund or health savings account...I'm already poor in those regards from all the other ways the builders have hit me up. I understand that building is different in different parts of the country but the region I learned in looks for efficiencies in every area. Unit sizing was just a natural thing to do there. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well Jim I think i can address a couple of your concerns. My solution for the drywaller actually works quite nicely as the 100 1/2" wall is reduced to 98 1/2" exposed by the time strapping, ceiling, and flooring are installed leaving the untaped seam only 2 1/2" off the floor. Just about any baseboard should make it over this seam. Also around here we skim coat the entire wall so our plasterers are bending over regardless of what stud the builder has me use.
As for an 8' sheet of plywood not making it to the top plate it doesn't any how if you are overhanging your 1st floor deck, possibly you build on slabs but that doesn't happen around here. We have also just began using 10' sheets of cdx or up to 12' sheets of osb.
When framing window r.o.'s in an 8' stud wall you end up with an 8" cripple if using an 8" header. We use 4x8's which are cut in one pass, which is far more efficient than using a couple 2x12's in a shorter wall as they require twice the cuts as well as lamination. I would far rather pre cut 60 or so cripples in the average house than have to laminate headers. I do put in 4" cripples even when using 92 5/8" studs as i still use the 4x8.
I think anyone who considers themselves a framer pays very close attention to efficiency, but we also cannot be narrowminded as none of us has all the answers and we should always continue learning. I am still young at 26 but have been running my own framing business since 22 and learned very fast that their is always someone out there with a better way of doing it. So I guess I'll chaulk this one up to regional differences but where I learned my trade I was taught to take the plan I am given and find the efficiencies on the big items i am not going to let some cripples slow my crew down.
I am wondering if the OP just wanted to know about using the pre-cut studs. I didn't interpret that he WANTED to use full 8' studs.
Maybe he is NOT the builder or GC, but the homeowner asking questions just becuse he was curious.
Has toycept given any more info that I have missed? Or has he been scared away?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Hi all..... I've been reading all along.... and appreciate your responses. Seemed like a simple enough question when I started out, asking what I did..... but because of regional differences and some of your personal preferences, this has developed into an interesting exchange.I'm not the GC or the builder.... just an involved homeowner (or homeowner to-be) .... in the planning stages of creating a new house. I think I should have asked the question another way.... which is.... "regarding finished ceiling heights, what is the most cost effective ceiling height"? I'd like 9 foot ceilings, but have a feeling if we go with 8 foot ceilings the cost difference would be considerable (or would it?). Or if we go with slightly less than 8 feet would that save a bunch (which is why I originally asked about 8' precuts vs 7'-9" or 93 1/2" studs). We are on a budget....(as I suppose most people building a new house are)... I don't want to be penny wise-pound foolish.... but if there's considerable savings in the long run altering the ceiling heights, I'm just trying to go about this in an informed way, before committing to construction documents. The entire house is about 2,000 sf.... Thanks very much for your continued insights.by the way... if it helps, we are building in massachusetts.
If you asked me to frame a house with precut 104 5/8" studs, or 96" studs, I would give you a cheaper price for the 104 5/8" studs. There would be no bells going off because 9' ceilings are considered standard nowadays.You will have additional costs in many other ways. Typically drywall, insulation, paint, brick, siding, etc is priced per square foot and that one foot of all of those components certainly add cost. The additional footage for the framing lumber adds up too. To get your best deal, stick to "normal and customary". If you are in the cape cod area, it may be "normal and customary" to use 96 studs with strapping etc. The mere mention of strapping here, or in MI, where I cut my teeth would ring the "weird" bell and get you the 25% upcharge. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
We frame better than 60% of the time with the 104 5/8" studs. The house we are framing right now are 92 5/8" studs.
Two guys on my crew are 6'5" and 6'3"ish and they can nail braces to the topplates without much trouble. When we get to the "lower" ceiling, I can just reach to nail the braces to the topplates too. BUt . . . . .
its even easier for them :-)
I was always jealous of those guys who could reach the top plate without a lift. I tried the coffee can trick screwed to my boots...it didn't work that well. Paint cans work pretty good. Tape up the handle and bend it sorta snug but kinda loose and you can get in and out of them when you need to. I hadn't even thought about what the extra 3 3/8" would mean from that point of view. I doubt that it's significant to most of us but I would laugh at the guy that used to be able to reach a standard 8' ceiling when he found out he was 2" short on the slightly higher one. One area that I didn't mention was the stair situation. On the budget two story homes, that extra 3 3/8" makes for a tough decision on the rise issue if anything larger than 2 x 10's are used for the second floor joists. Technically speaking, the rise would be greater than 8" if I tried to fit a standard 14 rise stair system onto a floor framed with 2x12's or 12 engineered lumber. Neither of those are typically used in a "budget" situation, so the discussion might be academic. And I don't know that any locality could stop an 8"+ riser situation but I typically used that as my maximum height. FHA allows 8 1/4 if I remember correctly.The extra 3 3/8" certainly eliminates all possiblities of using a 13 rise system on an standard 8' ceiling house with 2x10 second floor but that is a rarity these days. It was far more common when I started building houses because the sq footage of the houses were small and sometimes there wasn't room for the extra tread near the front door. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Cape, something isn't adding up on your baseboard explanation or maybe I'm thinking the taper on the drywall board is larger than what it really is.If the board was hung horizontally, the tapered edge comes into play in the equation. I'm thinking the tapered edge factor would be 1 1/2". So, your base would need to be 2 1/2" + 1 1/2" or a total of 4". That's not an impossible obstacle to overcome...we just installed a bunch of 5 1/4" base ourselves last week, but to someone on a budget, it would add cost that they didn't necessarily want.I'm certain regional differences have some say in this matter. You mentioned 8" x 4" stock. That would be a special order item with a special order price in MI. I've never used on. In any event, I also don't remember many first floor headers that would work using 8" headers. The vast majority of first floor headers that are specced in MI are 12" and occasionally 10". Structurally speaking, I am not a fan of using small cripples anyway. Anything smaller than 8" have a tendency to split. Perhaps there is less splitting nowadays with the thin shanked gun nails but you have to remember that my experience dates back to the days when every cripple was hand nailed with 16D spikes...sometimes commons. I know how a small cripple gets split when the nail is driven through the top plate into it. Overall, that type of header assembly is significantly less structurally sound so I avoid them when I can. In MI, the 96" stud would result in a multitude of headers with the small cripple condition which I always strove to avoid. My carpenter's heart would be heavy looking at that every day at lunch.Another regional difference became evident when you addressed the exterior issues, you mentioned a second story structure even though I made my statement about a one story. In MI, the vast majority of second story walls cantilever out past the first floor brick which is standard on my homes. So, the sheathing does not typically continue straight up a two story home. Even in the front of the house, where the brick might extend two stories, the framers typically created a full platform style system where the rim joist broke the sheathings. In that system, 8' sheets work perfectly with 92 5/8" studs.Just a point of information. I personally have never framed a new house on a slab. We always built on basements. The sheathing did not extend over the first floor deck. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim I went back to check them again and they are 92 5/8. I wonder where that 1/8 when the first time?
LOL...it's easier to think 92 and a half. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Pretty common here to get 8' studs that are cut to the correct size.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
.... Either way, if you insist, you will be paying a premium becuase I'll have to factor in the stand around time to educate you. In my earlier years I wouldn't have even agreed to bid. I'm old and mellow now and my guys would have to deal with your "new ideas".
Please understand that I'm not making fun of you, I'm just trying to give you an honest answer.
Jim, your replies come across very strong..... I am curious did this strike a hotspot with you?
Maybe I missed something..... what are the "new ideas" that would have to be dealt with? What will you be "educating" about?
Did perhaps this scenario happen to you in the past?
Please understand, I am not finding fault.... just curious.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
It's not a hotspot, its just the reality of working with inexperienced people in the building business. The new idea being proposed is to use 96" studs instead of precuts. Anyone with any amount of building experience would know that that is a bad idea and will add a lot of work for the trades. It negates the very reason why they started shipping precuts. That lack of basic knowledge is just the tip of the iceberg. What else doesn't the inexperienced builder know? From my experience, I've found that I had to substantially spend a great deal of time educating these types of new clients. Often, the conversation ends up in the dreaded argument with "...my friend's uncle has built a lot of things and he says that the proper way to do that is to...." I had one of these conversations the other day with a client that did some research on the internet and wondered why the installer didn't "cope his base". It's an MDF paint job and he just mitred and caulked. My eyes aren't the best but I had to get all the way down and touch it to tell that it was caulked and it's not painted yet. Some could argue that all base should be mitred. In the olden days when everthing was handpounded, I'd probably make the same argument but in these days with the gun shooting...I'm not sure it makes much difference. The end result is the same: you can't tell...but the internet says ".....blah, blah, blah...."Therefore, I add 20 to 25% for the "aggravation factor" as opposed to offering my best prices for builders who have built before and know what to expect. I might spend ten minutes total discussing various items with an experienced builder/project manager. I probably will spend 10 to 30 minutes EVERY TIME the newbie builder walks up or calls me. So, there is no hot topic...just the time issue reality of working with someone that is relatively inexperienced inthe building industry. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I didn't take his response as very strong ... particularly in a negative way ... just very definitive. He has experience and he's shooting straight w/ his answer.
Just different ways people 'read in' responses, I think.
I didn't have any problem with Jim's answers/replies. Strong is not a negative thing.
And I don't think Jim had any problem with my post directly to him.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
I've never heard of either 8' studs or 7' 9" studs. Have you checked into what's readily available and/or typically used in your area?
BTW - If you fill in your profile we'll all know a bit about where you come from, and someone from your area might chime in.
maybe he means 92-5/8" precut studs....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Perhaps we should recommend that the op post this question over at JLC :)
Well.... I've tried posting questions on the JLC board....
hmmm.....
It's the perfect pantie raid question! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Maybe one of the pros on the board will give a better answer, but here is my $0.02 worth:
The purpose of the precut studs is to save costs for both labor and materials.
Standard drywall sheets are 48" wide, so they stack 2-high on the walls to fit an 8' nominal interior wall height (using the precut studs plus one bottom plate and doubled top plates). There is just enough room for the drywall on the ceiling and a bit of a space at the bottom, to be covered by the baseboard. If you use 8' studs, you will have to either cut every one of them shorter, or deal with filling and taping a 3" wide gap in the drywall coverage.
If you want 9' ceilings, you can get precut studs for that (and also 54" wide drywall sheets).
You are exactly right CVBReno. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The biggest problem that I can forsee is this....
Using an 8' stud would yield a wall height of 8'-4.5"... (100.5") given the standard dimensions of various sheet products you will experience great waste or excess effort in finishing the walls.
Drywall for the wall will have to be bought in 10' sheets cutting away and discarding of 21" (considerations being made for 1" floor space and 1/2 given at top for ceiling sheathing). Or you can cut up 3" strips for infill (not recommended) and do the work of finishing over them and risking joint breakage along those areas.
The exterior sheathing can be another problem but less of a concern depending on the configuration of your house.
Let me ask... why do you wnat to use 8' studs anyway?
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
True 8' and 92-5/8" studs readily available around here often at the same price per stick.
I did extensive interior remodeling in a home which was built circa 1970 using full 8' studs + single bottom plate + double top plate.
Obviously the ceiling was a tab higher than "normal". 54" drywall not in production during this era.
They handled drywall by hanging a 48" sheet horizonally at the ceiling, then a 3" strip, then a second 48" sheet below. One very wide joint covered the strip plus the two seams near the center of the wall. Then they skim coated the entire wall with Durabond. Nice job but I am sure it was not cheap.
I suspect that when it is all said, done and paid for you could probably have 9' ceilings for about the same price as using full 8' studs instead of 92-5/8".
Don't forget stair issues caused by even slightly taller ceilings.
Your call.
Jim
I've seen this a fair amount too. But it leaves you with a non tapered edge next to the tapered edge on the gyp. In commercial work we run everything vertically.ML
92-5/8"? Around here they measure 92-1/4"
ML
92-5/8" is very standard here on East coast.
92-1/4" shipped by accident to our local yard they finally put them on clearance sale - guys bought them and cut for blocking / top plate doublers / etc.
I know it's only 3/8" don't understand the east vs west difference - just know it exists.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I think that difference MAY have something to do with the practice of strapping the cielings in the N.E., but I'm just guessing.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
That's as good a guess as any.
Like I said, don't know why......
Like the mice said in "Babe" -- " It's the way things are!"
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Maybe not even the strapping , but the skim coat plaster, 3/8" thick.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
I was surprised when I moved from Calif. to Colorado that precuts were 3/8" longer. I can only guess that is because we used green Doug Fir in Calif., lumber was 1 9/16 thick , so with three plates 92 1/4" got pretty close to 8' 1". Just guessing. John
Edited 7/10/2008 10:16 pm ET by JohnCujie
west coast 92 5/8 is pretty standard, too.
8' is 8' ... really no longer ... in my experience. Sounds like a LOT of variations.
around here house's built in the 20's were studed with 8'. but that was when they were lath and plastering,so a couple more laths and another 1x on the outside and evrything was kosher.
but in todays world i would forget it,you could probably do 9' clgs cheaper than 8'4". larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Here in New England we do strap ceilings... and extra 3/4 inch to think about.
Forget the strapping because you don't need it and you don't have to think about it............;-)
Just joking because we've had many debates/arguments about who straps and who doesn't strap.
Thanks Joe... I've read a number of posts from you, on this board and others. Respect your insights.
Do you mean 92 5/8" versus 88 5/8" studs?
One will finish out a wall at just slightly over 97 1/8" the shorter ones will finish a wall out at 93 1/8".
Tall wall means sheathing doesn't quite run plate to plate with full coverage, but inside drywall works perfect . short wall sheathing will ties from sill plate to T.T. Plate of wall and inside you cut drywall.
Single wall construction using 88 5/8" studs is economical using sheet goods as finish siding.
Not sure where you live - no profile info - but here in the SE USA they are 93" - and we call 'em 93" - not 7'9".... Very common for 8' (nominal) ceilings. As a matter of fact, I've never heard of using 96" studs for a new house.... Just wouldn't make any sense. Maybe if it were the 2nd floor and the first floor was 9' and you were using 9' sheathing... maybe... wouldn't fit into your economy mode though...
BTW - In my area, only the cheapest of the cheap homes have 8' (nominal) ceilings on the first floor. Anything above, say 125 or 135k is 9' ceilings on the first floor. How tight is your budget? What kind of home are you building?
To the others: I've been trying local building supplies to get 92 5/8" studs for years. Best answer I got thus far was: "if you commit to buying a carload we will get some in." - that's a train car load.... :-) Just doesn't make any sense - they have 104 5/8" why not 92 5/8"??? Makes the sheetrock fit better, and I believe it helps with air sealing at the bottom plate... Makes the base work better too...
Edited 7/10/2008 11:21 pm ET by Matt
Wee-man likes 104 &5/8"
Been watching this thread for a while now.....
My 2 cents.
Would like to try an "8" stud for walls someday. 8 footers here are around 8' 1/2 " , but there is some variance. It could be 1/8 " over, to 3/4" over.
If I could get over the inconsititinys (sp) maybe they would work
The studs are always 92 5/8, Kinda dead-on.
but if you quit framing with 2x6 - 12"OC the walls would be a bit easier to handle...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!