A deep well jet pump has two pipes coming from the front of it.
One is a suction pipe, the other is the ‘driver’ pipe.
I’d like to know if it is possible to just plug the driver pipe, and use the pump straight through ?
The job it has to do, is to simply pump water from one barrel to another barrel.
Here is a pic of the pump as it was originally set up.
What I want to do is to remove it from the pressure tank.
Plug the “air volume” port.
Plug the pressure switch port. (I will only be running this, when I am standing there, watching it.)
Plug the “drive line”.
Plug one of the upper ‘discharge’ ports.
Then simply run the remaining upper discharge port to the recieving barrel, and the “suction line” to the donor barrel.
Will this work ?
I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream..
.
.You are always welcome at Quittintime
Replies
any reason not to use a cheap syphon?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Slope is wrong, maybe?A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
If its a " convertable Jet " style pump you can bolt the injector thats down the well presently to the front of the pump & if i remember correctly we would change the venturie to a shorter one
Its been a while since i changed one & most were Jacuzzi brand pumps and came with both venturies
all the pumps i have installed in the last 20 years are down the well
too bad you are so far away as i think i might still have a few good used convertable jets around if i havent thrown them out during my regular decade clean ups LOL
And McPlumb, and GFretwell And Dovetail...This is a sears pump. Model 309-252201I have neither the jet that was in the well, nor the shallow well conversion jet.I am not even sure this pump works at all. I haven't tested it.I asked the question, because if the answer is a resounding, NO, then it is not worth doing the R&R to get it to the point where I could test it.I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream....You are always welcome at Quittintime
Gotta move the water about 75 feet away, and 25 feet up.Siphon won't work.On edit: I should have said, -doesn't- work. I have already tried that....I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream....You are always welcome at Quittintime
Edited 5/21/2009 12:21 pm by Luka
Maybe somewhat dependent on the type of pump you have.
On a Goulds deep well jet pump, you bolt a shallow well adaptor on front and your good to go.
The shallow well adaptor has venturi tube with a nozzle that extends back into the casting. This directs the water to the center of the impeller.
Simply, yes.
edit : you do need a foot valve on the suction line - pump needs to be full of water to have suction.
Edited 5/21/2009 6:59 am ET by junkhound
After having a good look over it, and the manual for it that I found at sears.com...My inner 'engineer' agrees with you. It does look to me like it should work as a simple centrifical pump.But I have never worked with a jetpump before. I wonder if it will simply not work, without the 'jet' action.Or... Work, but be as weak as my current solution. I've been using a symer 12v RV pump. Have to keep the pump as close to the donor barrels as possible. Still takes almost an hour to move one, 55 gallon barrel of water.I'll give this a bit more time, and hope for a few more answers. I have to go to town today to renew my driver's lisence, anyway. (The notice I got in the mail said I will be getting one of those new lisences that doubles as the proper ID to cross the border now.)
I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream....You are always welcome at Quittintime
Have some of exact same pumps.
I'll look in the back if I have an extra front bell end with an integral jet.
Best bet would be to put your pump at the donor barrel, setup with just the center pipe into donor barrel and a foot valve.
e-mail me your pipe size (if PE) or thread size (if iron or Cu) and I'll mail you a foot valve and pipe adapter. Extra foot valves I have are 1" female npt.
It will take about 1-1/2 minutes to empty a 55 gal bbl. (will pump about 40 gpm)
Still have that 82 gal water tank with the wood plugs if you deceide you ever want that.
Edited 5/21/2009 1:19 pm ET by junkhound
Thank you, Art.
I don't know if the motor runs on this thing, or not. I'll be checking that out, first thing, when I get back this afternoon.
I would assume, though, that if the motor doesn't run, I should be able to rig another motor up to the pump, somehow.
Here is a pic of the front of the pump.
View Image
The arrow points to the pressure regulator. The 'shaft' that is supposed to be sticking out the front of that, is broken off. Can I replace that with a bolt or something ?
The circle is where the shallow well jet is supposed to go.
I'd assume that I simply remove those two pipe stubs, and install the jet.
It looks like there is a seal behind the jet. Probably a rubber 'o' ring. I'llneed that. I'll also need the stainless stell 'clamp' that holds it all together.
As for pipe size, the 1" is just fine.
If the motor runs, this afternoon, my plan of action is to take the pump assembly apart and clean it all out first. It is full of rust. There is a LOT of rust in the water, in the well it was attached to.
After I put it back together, I'll plug the bottom pipe hole.
Then plumb straight to the center hole, as you said, and use the check valve I have, on the end of the pipe that I put into the full barrel.
Then give her a trial run to see if she works without the jet.
If it works without the jet, I'll let you know. If I need the jet, I'll let you know that, as well.
Man, if it empties a barrel that fast, it sounds like I need to put the power on a remote cord, and stand over the barrel, so I can shut it off before the pump starts sucking air.
...I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream...You are always welcome at Quittintime
Art,
The motor works fine. I haven't tried it with a load yet, but it seems to be ok.
I decided to remove the pump from the motor before I tried to start the motor.
Then broke the shaft loose, and spun it by hand for a while.
Once started... the cent. switch is sticky, so it wouldn't re-start, at first.
I worked on that a bit, and have left it well-soaked in wd-40. (All out of PB Blaster.)
After a couple dozen starts and stops, and fiddling with the switch, it did start working right. I don't trust it to continue to work right, and will leave the cap off the end of the motor for a while, just in case.
Took the pump apart.
The pressure regulator is not something that can be fixed with a bolt. Luckily, it is in the wide-open position, and will stay there.
Most of the inside of the pump was full of rust, teflon tape bits, and debris.
The impellor was packed solid with the stuff.
The center rim of the impellor, where it rides inside the diffusor, is damaged. It looks like it was run dry, the plastic of the impellor melted, and fanned out, in sort of a spider web.
View Image
The inside rim of the diffusor is similarly damaged. Without the spider web of plastic.
I am thinking that once I reassemble the pump, this may be the weak link.
If you hold the impellor in one hand, the diffusor in the other. Insert the impellor the way it is supposed to be. And spin... It screams. I'll assume this screaming sound is what moved the previous owner to stop using this pump.
I'll work on both surfaces with a bit of sandpaper or emory, and hope that not having a real tight fit there, will not make a difference to the pump operation. I'll coat both surfaces with a bit of petroleum jelly, when I reassemble it.
I will clean all the parts with vinegar, to get rid of as much of the rust as I can. Then reassemble the pump.
I am going to try to make this work without the jet, at first. I'll let you know how it goes....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Hi Art. Just a summary here.
"It will take about 1-1/2 minutes to empty a 55 gal bbl. (will pump about 40 gpm)"
Well, it works, but only at about ten percent of that. And that was in optimal conditions.
Check the link for a WIP of the entire project.
Pump WIP
I'd like to try this with the shallow well jet adaptor.
In this pic, I have filled it in, with red.
View Image
This is an exploded view.
View Image
I'll need the stainless collar and the rubber 'O' ring as well as the jet assembly itself. I do not have any of those parts.
I believe you have my snail mail address. (Box 391, Index.) If not, just drop me an email, and I'll get that to you.
Alternatively, I could just drive down and pick it up.
=0)
Thank you for the offer....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
I don't know what size pump that is. I have had similar in the 1/2 or 3/4hp range.No way will those flow 40 gpm. More like 8.It has been a while, but I don't believe that the pump will work in a jet more, even with the adapter, with that worn section on the impeller. IIRC I had to replace the impeller once, but that was at least 10 years ago.Without the jet it should work as long as you keep the inlet flooded.If I understand correctly the pump will be below the source tanks. But htat you use a probe to get the water out of the drums. So you would need to siphon it to get the pipe filled with water and the inlet flooded..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
This is a 1hp.The max flow with a shallow well jet setup is 17.0 gallons per minute.The max with a deep well setup is 8.2gpm.While it isn't as high as Art thought, in the shallow well setup, if it would do it's max, I'd be very happy. In fact, if it would do just the 8 gallons per minute, I'd be happier.And I would be surprised if it DIDN'T flow better with the shallow well jet assembly, versus no jet assembly at all.Right now, with no jet at all, it is only flowing half of the deep well rating.The damage to the impellor is not affecting the flow rate. The 'bearing surface' in there, is not as damaged as it seemed. It seals pretty well, yet slips well enough, to do the job correctly.And a seal is not required right there, anyway.The only way that a damaged impellor would be affecting the flow rate, is if it were sticking, and slowing things down from friction. Or if the vanes were broken, or some other similar damage.If you had to replace the impellor, it was probably because of some other type of damage to it. If the same damage, it was because yours was melted and/or worn well past the stage this one is at.Thank you, but I am well aware of the physics and forces involved in getting and keeping the source pipe full. As well as the reasons for doing so. And the effects that differing pipe sizes, different lofts and runs, etc, have on the flow rate and efficiency of the pump....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
IIRC the hub of the impeller cracked where it attached to the motor shaft.And that lets it rub against the case. Don't remember where the damage was. But the first clue was that a screen that have on the hose was full of plastic shavings."I can see nothing about how far it can push the water."For the shallow jet setup you will should have a chart that will list the flow rate at several discharge pressures.And there will be several of those for different suction lists.Or a chart giving that.Discharge pressure = lift = head. IIRC 1 psi = 2.3 ft of lift..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
You know something funny ? I ALMOST suggested that as the failure/damage that would cause you to have to replace the impellor. Actually pictured that part of the impellor cracking, and the kind of damage it would do.I guess that sort of damage was on my mind, because of SG's pump spline problems.Thank you for the info on the chart. This has a 40psi minimum discharge pressure, (60 max), which equates to 92 feet of lift.I am obviously not seeing the 40psi, at the moment. Still want to try the shallow well jet assembly....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
A couple of comments.First that "pressure regulator" on mine never seemed to do anything. I think that it partial bypass and not a spring loaded valve, but not sure.Assuming that the pump is working to specs you want see the minimum presusre unless you have the system valved and can constrict the flow.Also note that in practice you won't see the full lift. You start with the discharge pressure that the pump. They you subtract off the loss (or gain when lower) for the change in elevation. Then you figure the friction loss in the pipe for a given flow rate. That gives you the pressure at the other end for that flow rate.A centrifical pump running unloaded (no restrictions on the discharge) the hp requirements go up. And in some cases can burn out the motor. This is not a problem in this kind of pump. But can be in something like a multi stage submersible that is designed to push the water up a couple of hundred feet just to get to the surface.A centrifical pump running continously dead head can boil the water and burn out the bearings. Again not a problem in a case like this..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Just thinking here...
I'm thinking that at the pressure regulator, pressure and flow are at odds with each other.
This is the business end of the pressure regulator.
View Image
This is the pump housing, where the regulator fits.
View Image
As you can see, the pressure regulator works by pushing that disk into the hole, or pulling it away from the hole.
The way the pressure regulator works, then, is to cut down the flow of the water. Allowing less water through, increases the pressure.
That just seems to be odd, to me. I can see where the pressure would be increased. Just like restricting the end of the garden hose with your thumb, when washing the car.
But if increasing the number of gallons per minute is your goal, how is restricting the amount of water that can get through, -increasing- the amount of water that gets through ???
~~~
On the other hand, I can see how the jet would work to -both- increase the pressure, and increase the water flow amount....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
I have one old somewhat deformed jet assy for your pump (overheated once when well went dry during the 1987 drought, not worth shipping but will bring it to the fest in August.
Think my day to day pump (same type) is a 2HP, it pumped 29 gal/min from 60 ft down all day, which is why I guessed 40 gpm wide open - probably some blockage in the impeller.
I've always left that "pressure regulator" wide open or just replaced with a plug.
It would be worth the gas, for me to drive down and pick it up. It would cost close to 60 dollars with the shipping, and all that, if I ordered the part. And they are out of the part for shipping, anyway.I think I'll go back to the guy I bought the pump from, and ask him if he has the jet that goes down the well. (He is on the way to town, anyway.)If he does, I think I'll try to rig it up with just two short pieces of pipe. Kind of my own version of a shallow well conversion. LOL I wonder if that will work as well as the assembly intended for shallow wells ? Guess I'll find out. =0)I'll let you know if that works out.The impellor on mine is clean/clear. No blockage at all. It doesn't drag, either. Spins freely. And there is no huge gap between it and the deflector. I don't think the problem is with the impellor, or it's direct partners.I think the problem is the lack of the jet assembly. Without that assembly, it's just a plain jane centrifical pump. And not all that big an impellor, at that...In one respect, it's not a problem anyway. If it still pumps at least the 4 gallons a minute, when set, down the driveway, then it will be doing better than the old pump.~~~The pressure regulator is currently wide open.I may take that whole thing out and replace it with a plug, as you mention.Another thing I am going to do, to try to improve the delivery rate...Use black poly tubing between the donor barrel and the pump. 1" at least.Possibly use 3/4" black poly tubing between the pump and the storage barrels. (If I have to buy a whole roll of the 1" or 1-1/4" black poly, then I'll probably just make the entire system from that.)The biggest problem I'll have with all that, is between the pump and the donor barrels.I have to be able to move that pipe from barrel to barrel. That will be differing positions. Up, down, sideways, etc. The black poly may prove very difficult to work with, there....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Buy a "T" , and 2 valves that work with poly.
Or switch from the poly to PVC at the barrels and make up a valved "T" system, just switch valves over to change your draw barrel.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
2 valves that work with poly ?...Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
adapters from poly to pvc are available.
Pvc male/female/ barbed poly. Just seemed to me that if this system is gonna be used much I would make it as easy as possible on myself .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I know about the barbed fittings. Already planned for that.As well as a couple of universal connections, for easy connect-disconnect.I don't know what you mean by a couple of valves, though.I'll have at least one ball valve, right at the donor barrel, if that's what you mean.Convenient is right. My last system was very modular. I hope to make this one even better....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
from your post:
""The biggest problem I'll have with all that, is between the pump and the donor barrels.I have to be able to move that pipe from barrel to barrel. That will be differing positions. Up, down, sideways, etc. The black poly may prove very difficult to work with, there.""
I was suggesting building a manifold with a different pipe for each donor barrel.
Once the pump is in place then each barrel has it's own draw pipe, controlled by valves.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Ah.That might be worth doing. Certainly worth thinking about.I was thinking more along the lines of one line, with a couple of attachments to make it longer or shorter. It won't be moving so far the other directions that it can't flex enough to make up for that....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Put a tee in and pull out of both at the same time?
Good idea.But not likely to be done, because I want to keep the 'manifold' from becoming ungainly and difficult to use or keep track of.And doing this would be one step further away from K.I.S.S.~~~An update to this.Mixed news.I did get the jet that the guy had had in the well.VERY badly rusted. Inside and out.Some of it rusted clear through.I did get the parts all apart after much difficulty. And they are all soaking in vinegar/lemon juice, right now.I am hoping that after I get them cleaned up as much as I can, and do an electrolytic treatment on them... That they will be serviceable.The parts for this are not super expensive, but are enough that buying a new, shallow well adaptor would make more sense than getting the parts for this. Plus, one part, the venturi, is no longer available, and they say no other manufacturer makes similar, either.So, I'll do what I can with these. And if it doesn't work, then I'll look into the conversion kit....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
I would try to google up the installation manual but the last one I installed was convertible and the conversion was simply whether you had a manifold bolted to the front of the pump. Set up as a shallow well pump you bolted on the manifold and hooked the suction to it.
Yep, mine were all that way.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
One more concern...While I don't mind having to prime the thing, at first, I am hoping that it is not as exacting a process as my old sears pump was.It is irritating, having to have an extra couple gallons of water at the ready, each time... and having to take 5 to 20 minutes each time a barrel is empty and you move to a new barrel... doing the prime wait prime wait prime wait prime wait... cycle.I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream....You are always welcome at Quittintime
Junkhound said, 'Foot Valve.'
But that depends on where you're gonna put the pump: at the supply barrel, or at the upper one you want to fill.
A foot valve just is a specialised check valve designed to prevent water in the supply pipe from running back downhill into the lake, emptying the pump chamber and voiding the prime. There are times when we install straight-through check valves (which cost more) at the upper end of the line instead of at the foot--like when a foot valve crâps out during the winter and we don't wanna have to send down a diver under the ice to look for the sucker. That gets real expensive....
I'd suggest you put the pump at the upper barrel, and put a foot valve on the end of the suction hose. Yeah, that means you need rigid hose. You got any? For your purposes, 1¼" x 75# is more than enough. You'll suck that 55gal barrel dry in two shakes of a lambs tail.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I bring drinking/cooking water from town in barrels. Store it in other barrels.I have modified my setup, over several years. This is the basic setup...The storage barrels are on a rack, above and just outside the kitchen. They are permanently mounted, and plumbed to the kitchen. All solid plumbing.The truck with the full barrels in it, gets parked about 75 feet away. I have a rig for the pumping.Start with three white hoses which are intended for drinking water for an rv. These are essentially garden hoses. One hose is left alone, the other hose was cut into about one third/two thirds, and new connectors attached, to make two smaller hoses.At the supply barrel, I have a PVC 'walking stick' that is placed in the barrel, through the bung. It reaches far enough to reach the bottom of the barrel even if the barrel is on a slope, and the stick is inserted through the 'uppermost of the two bungs.The 'stick' has an elbow at the top, and a short PVC run, to a garden hose fitting. The bottom of the stick has a couple of notches in it, to prevent it 'hoovering' itself to the bottom of the barrel. For a filter on the bottom of that, I used a piece of the filter material intended for 'floor registers' for a home forced air furnace system. That is held on with a simple hose clamp. Keeps the particulates out of the drinking water system.Then a short hose run, down to the pump. Then the rest of the hose is connected to the output of the pump, and run up the hill to the storage barrels.The 'system' works well.The old sears pump would pump a barrel dry in about 15 to 20 minutes, on a good day. Sometimes took as much as 35 to 40 minutes. Was very finiky about it's prime. Once finally primed, could lose the prime at the drop of a hat. And was also very finiky about being positioned just right, in relation to the donor barrels.That pump is no longer pumping. It needs a major rebuild, and I may not find the parts anymore. That's why I am currently using only the 12v RV pump, and hoping I can make this other pump work, instead. ~~~All that, to describe the basic setup.Now...I have always used a 3/4" bronze check valve, (inline one-way valve), on the old sears pump. It is plumbed to the suction side of the pump, and directly on the pump itself. The 12v pump doesn't need the check valve. Nor does it need to be primed.The way it is all set up, with the pump on the ground beside the truck, the full barrels are above the pump. (The old sears pump would still not work without that check valve. It would push water both directions, instead of just the one way, if the valve wasn't there.)The empty barrels are up the hill, and up on the rack as well.With the pump turned off, any water in either hose, -should- just run back down the hose to the pump. You'd think it would easily hold it's prime. Even 'between barrels'.Regardless. I have often wondered if I should put that check valve on the bottom end of the PVC pipe that goes into the barrel. I think I'll give that a try, when I get another pump working.
...I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream...You are always welcome at Quittintime
If you hooked a pressure tank to the pump, and set them up at the bottom of the hill where you bring in the truck, you could forget about making periodic manual transfers up the hill and have a 'demand' system that would cycle on whenever you opened a tap in the house. You could put a 'low-level' float switch in the supply tanks to prevent the pump from sucking air if you got distracted and forgot to bring in more water some week.
Of course, whether that set up will work depends on the rise, too. You said 75' lateral but you didn't specify the rise. Most home pressure-tank systems will raise water quite handily to the second storey bathroom from the basement; say a total head of about 18-24 feet.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
It can't be left down there.It'll 'walk'.I did say in an earlier post that the run is about 75 feet, and the rise is close to 25.I still haven't gotten my 43 foot 5th wheel RV set in it's permanent spot. That may take until the end of -next- summer. But once set permanently, it will be easy enough to build a permanent 'station' for the pump and all, over there.Until then, I've got to settle for temporary. And make it as convenient and servicable as possible....I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream...You are always welcome at Quittintime
Its the lift above the surface of the water that counts & the run has little effect on the calcs
A shallow well pump is normally considered to have 26' of lift if i recall correctly from my days of working with them , when close on margin run jet style
submersable is so much simpler , one of the biggest reasons for using them plus no priming
Ive installed them on cottages they are so fool proof & simple
SUCTION, SUCTION, SUCTION.You can't have a 25 ft lift on the suction side with a shallow jet pump. And without the jet I doubt that you will get any useful suction..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill, the hydroglass jet pumps are meant to pull from no lower than 90 feet, for the deep well jet.With the shallow well conversion jet, the max depth is 20 feet.I can see nothing about how far it can push the water....Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy..You are always welcome at Quittintime
I no longer remember what I was thinking, LOL. The theoretical maximum suction lift for any pump is 32 feet, if I remember my high-school physics...but theory and reality often bear the same resemblance to each other as does the real Halle Berry to her 'Catwoman' screen persona....
View ImageView Image
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'd say go for it, give it a try. For what you need to do, I'd be surprised if it didn't work.
Edited 5/21/2009 12:25 pm ET by HammerHarry
"Convertable"... Yes, this pump is convertable. But you have to have the shallow well jet to 'convert' it. I want to do this without the conversion jet. Which I do not have, and do not wish to buy. I do not know if the pump will work at all, yet. -IF- it will ONLY work with the conversion jet...It is not worth the expense to buy the conversion jet, only to find out that the pump is worthless, or next to worthless, anyway....I dreamed that I was dreaming with nowhere to sleep.
Then I dreamed that I was sleeping, with nothing to dream...You are always welcome at Quittintime
oh the syphon would work ...
it's kill you making it work ...
but it'd work!
sooner or later ...
if you had about a year I bet the auto-syphon would work.
both yer arms would fall off ... but in theory ... it has to work!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa