Using “seams” in vinyl and lap siding
I am a builder in Kodiak, Alaska, where vinyl siding has become increasingly popular (unfortunatley). My question is, a handful of other local builders and do-it-yourselfers have taken to using vertical seams (using H-channel or more commonly a double J channel) between stacked rowns of siding panels (usually 12′ span). We don’t do this because we feel it is unattractive, but those who do it argue that it speeds installation (thereby increasing profits) and is better for wind/strenth, etc. I can’t find any data one way or the other, but none of the manufacturer instructions I have seen mention this technique. I am curious if this type of installation can void siding warranties, or any other issues to that effect? Has anyone run into this? Also, there are builders here who do the same with lap siding (fiber-cement, engineered wood, cedar, etc.) Just looking for some feedback from other markets–particularly those in harsh, cold, wet climates like we have in coastal Alaska.
Replies
Here in PA we get a wide climate spread, cold winters and humid summers. I would never use double-j, that just makes a nice long crack for weather to get in. H perhaps but I question the economics. To install addition double-j or h channel plum could take as much time as a few lap joints. How you treat the subsurface may make more of a difference. As far as aesthetics, well there's no accounting for taste...
It sounds like your competition doesnt care much for aesthetics. Lets hope that practice doesnt catch on around here
As far as weather tight or Mfg warrantee, I see no problem as long as basic flashing principles are applied
Since they're putting all of the weep holes on a vertical line instead of on the bottoms of the laps, they had better be sure (i) they're putting one heck of a good rain plane under there or (ii) Alska has a short stautute of limitations on risky workmanship.
Did you know vinyl siding can be purchased in longer lengths?
Certanteed makes monogram 46l thats 16'8" long. I suppose other
suppliers do also.
Rob Teed
I've seen that done here... speed of installation is the only reason...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Lazy Siders--I suppose if they had a 18' wall they would run the vert. joint 12' from one end just so they wouldn't have to cut them.
Well to each his own, but not on my house--
Wind strenght ! sounds like their fishing for some back up data.
Mike
" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
I think your right. They are digging deep for an excuse. Wind strength ... yea that's the ticket.Exactly how long does it take to cut a piece of vinyl siding. Maybe a minute a length on a bad day. And any savings eaten up by the time it takes to plumb and nail the Js. I don't suppose they caulk between the Js. That might take ten seconds. Too much time.Will the manufacturers warrantee their product installed like this? Will people pay for it to be installed like this?
plumb is a relative term....
as plumb as yur eyes are calibrated...
caulk costs money too...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
another thing....
leave off the house wrap of any kind..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
yea that's the ticket.OK Jon Luviets (sp)I think they haven't thought about it cause with my home made circular saw jig I slid it out of the box --into the saw guide--make the cut and slide it out the other end and onto the wall.Even with air nailers I can still bury the install guy with parts--Heck for that matter it takes twice as long to trim out a wall with corners, windows, starter strip etc than the acual siding--If they really wanted to save money then they should score the back of the siding and wrap it around the corners--look like lap siding with a woven corner--Now thats class babyIt comes down to good material and CRAFTSMANSHIP and IMHO vinyl can look good and provide protection for a house--But take out eihter of these and your in for troubleOps--there goes my soap box again--Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Funny you should mention that--actually you are right in most cases, that is exactly what they do - blow and go. But sometimes on the front elevation they put "thought" into it and center the seams with the windows--"nice" eh? To be honest, the biggest production builder in our community utilizes this practice, so our "quaint" island community now has entire subdivisions with this kind of curb un-appeal.
I guess what I am looking for is some sort of documentation that could convince either our lone local appraisor to dock these guys on their value for this, or convince the building department that it is bad building science. Both of these seem far fetched because the reality seems to be that it can be done "right" to protect the integrity of the building, it's just that it is plain tacky and ugly, and most homebuyers in our market do not know the difference!
I guess now I am just venting. I just hate to see our quaint little fishing community stoop this low. Little plastic castles are bad enough in themselves, but it seems that they should at least install them as the manufacturers intend them to.
Is this something that might be prevented via covenants when new subdivisions are developed?
PS--I am actually a residential designer who married and now works with a homebuilder who thankfully tries is best not to install vinyl siding on homes! Problem is it is just so darn affordable for folks that just need a modest roof over their head and don't care about, or cannot afford the bells & whistles....even painted T1-11 a more expensive option in our market!
Unlike most on this board (from what I gather), I don't really have any qualms with vinyl siding. It is affordable & low maintanance & I don't think it looks all that bad when properly installed (save for low end siding - but that goes for most building materials)
However, this seam thing sounds pretty awful. Sounds like it's asking for water penetration & it would look terrible. Nothing like drawing everyone's eyes to this giant seem in the middle of your house.
Exactly like you said - doesn't look that bad when installed properly. The downside is that there are a LOT of ways to go wrong and the end result is horrible. I worked in building material sales for 5 years and sold a LOT of vinyl siding, so I know some are by far nicer looking than others, and there are things you can do to make the end result not scream "VINYL SIDING" but that is an entirely new discussion! I realize it is affordable and easy to maintain so we may as well figure out how to make it look good. A lot of it has to do with the trim techniques used. Also, for some reason, on the houses I have seen, if you stick with white or go with the spendier blends or dark colors, it's not so obvious that it's vinyl. We have customers who didn't want to paint their hardieplank tan or beige because "it would make it look like vinyl siding". Weird huh?Anyway, my main point is you can follow all the ideas to make it look good and not be obvious it's vinyl, but as soon as you stick that double-j seam in there it pretty much advertises it's a vinyl job--and a bad one at that. Again, just my opinion!And by the way, the builder using these seams is in fact using the cheapest vinyl siding available, in most cases.
into it and center the seams with the windows
Huh? Seems like it'd be simpler to run J on both sides of the window top to bottom. That'd be even faster, only one size to cust for the entire window's height, and no trimming around the window frame.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I agree with you---in reality it would probably be worth it for them to do it right and have their finished product look better. Now if I just had all these guys e-mail address to send them this discussion-haha!
Now if I just had all these guys e-mail address to send them this discussion-haha!
LoL! Like anybody that cheap would actually pay for internet access . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If you want to complain about siding look into the window guys who are building windows with intergrated J channel--No more exterior trim--ChaChing profits baby--It use to be common practice to full case a window with a nice crown (bed molding) around the top--Not any more--Hey there are a lot of nice windows that still get trimmed--just when the bottom line hits the bottom of the barrel all bet are off--As for the vinyl being king in price in the area, sounds like the red barn theory--You know farmers use to all paint their bard red cause it was the cheapest--Well it was the cheapest cause one guy used it and the supplier knew he could sell red paint so he stocked it and sold more and lowered the price cause of volume and around and around it goes---till vinyl (red paint ) is king--I hear my soap box creaking so I'd better get off before it breaks.Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
"No more exterior trim"Funny I almost got into this issue on my previous posts but figured I had alread ranted too much.You really should come to Kodiak----forget about integrated j-channel, most builders around here just wrap the windows in j-trim and call that trim. If it is lap siding, they just run it into the frame of the vinyl window and don't bother with trim.This is the first thing I "threw a fit about" in dealing with my builder husband, who was guilty of not using window trim himself--for cost reasons. I got him to do it on a house that had the budget for it and now he does it on all of our homes---it just looked so darn good, and it makes our product look better against the other guys.Details.Funny thing is the average consumer will like a house better if trimmed out properly, when compared to a house that is missing the extra exterior trims (that used to be standard!), but if you ask them to pinpoint what is different they don't really know until you point it out....So yes please, BRING BACK WINDOW TRIMS!!!!! (Then maybe we can sneak in water table trim, a belly band here or there, or even that cornice stuff!!!!
Now you have peaked my interest--I gotta go find the atlas and look up Kodiak----Not that I am planning out my travel route--have to many small children to be making that kind of trip--last great run on the road was Christmas 2002 to Dallas, TX 980miles cannonball run--started at night with the kids asleep--made half the trip in a third of the total time--NIce--I would have to say the vinyl is a wimpering horse about to give up the ghost so I think I'll let it.Given my choice I would use Hardie or Certainteed but when the HO specs vinly and there financing the gig--hard to say no---Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
I gotta go take some pictures of this technique and post it on here so you all can get some good laughs.... I got an e-mail back from Certainteed saying something to the fact of "installing our horizonal vinyl siding in this way will not void the warranty, but it would look ridiculous!"They actually used the word ridiculous...pretty funny. They went on to reinforce the fact that they only warrant manufacturing defects so if a problem arised linked to this kind of installation, it would void the warranty.So be tacky at your own risk I guess is the main point. Seems like youd have to take alot of extra precaustions that would sort of defeat the purpose.Thanks to you and others on this post I don't feel so alone in thinking this is so horrendous. Thanks for indulging me!!Oh and Kodiak is heaven---primarily if you love to hunt and fish! And it could use a few good tradespeople! It's hard to find competent help around here!!!
if you love to hunt and fish!Sounds nice--but Mn. isn't so shabby in the H&F dept.The DW wish is to someday see Alaska--I have every intention of making this happen---someday, after the kids are gone--in about 15 years--Think ya might still be around?Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Be around? In 15 years hopefully my husband and I won't be building houses any more, but running hunting/fishing/sightseeing charters out of our remote Kodiak Island lodge!! That may be a pipe dream but we manage now with our 26' aluminum cabin cruiser--gets you to all the good spots! I would also like to guide sea kayaking trips and hikes someday. My husband is the one into killing the animals and slaying the fish--so he'l be the guide for that!! Right now we just do all of the above as hobbies...So keep in touch! My husband is from Idaho and he followed his Alaskan dream and is working as a successful contractor, so it can be done! (Me, I was born & raised here...) Actually, for carpenters & tradesfolk, the "valley" is the best place to be in Alaska--it's 45 min to 1 hour out of Anchorage and is growing at mach speed. Land is just about gone in Anchorage---you can still get "cheap" land in the valley too (the main towns there are Wasilla and Palmer...Palmer is prettier with a small farmtown feel nestled near the mountauns, Wasilla is more flat, rolling hills, and loaded with all the major shopping & restaurant chains...)But I don't know--there are already too many Minnesota folks coming to live in Alaska!!!! GUess you already have the cold winter thing handled 'eh?OK 'nuff babbling--main point, vinyl siding seams and other tacky practices aside, southcentral Alaska is growing rapidly and can use all the competent tradesman we can handle before this beautifuyl state is littered with crap like we have discussed in this thread....
Tempting--I may have to accelerate the visit to Alaska plan--pawn the kidlettes off on the uncles and aunts and get the heck outta dodge.Hear the summers allthough short are nice--True?We have thought about leaving Mn. (not super friendly to self-employed with taxes) but the reputation is solid and it helps with the steady stream of work.Now a visit--that is another story--thanks for the idea and the invite---Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Kodiak,
I thought this was a joke when I read it but I guess it's not. Anyone who does that is a disgrace. So if a house is 40' long you will have 3 vertical 12' joints and the last one would be a 4' piece going into the corner board. That's some real Fine Home Building going on out there with joints every 12' landing anywher on a house. I've heard of some garbage building before but this one is one of the worst.Keep doing ot the way your doing it, the right way.
They can give you all the excuse they want but they're nothing but a bunch of clowns and their houses should be discussed on a forum called "SH!T HOME BUILDING".........
Re: "So if a house is 40' long you will have 3 vertical 12' joints and the last one would be a 4' piece going into the corner board."Your overlooking the more decorative and festive options possible with vinyl siding. Using your 40' building side example the 4' remainder could be divided equally and placed on both ends or, perhaps, tastefully divided either side of the center 12' section. Te help the look it might be beneficial to install the short 2' sections in a contrasting color. Also on the 12 sections the horizontal runs could be installed in third color.I'm thinking a alternating hunter green and barn red horizontal stripes for the 12' sections and a lovely sky blue or pale yellow, I do so hope they make blue and/or yellow, for the 2' vertical sections. The aesthetic possibilities are endless.Plant a artfully rusted out '47' Chevy truck on blocks in the front yard and a heavily knocked up and barefoot girl and a dozen or two unwashed and half-naked and half-starved kids on the stoop and your all set. The look will be all the rage after the bubble bursts, the rich have taken their turn against the wall and cannibalism becomes the preferred method of feeding the excess population.
ROTFLMAO-----Style Baby---and quality to boot----Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
You know what also would look good for those professional contractors out there would be if they started installing cedar beveled siding for example around here we get it primed and all the lengths only come in 16' so they can install all the 16' pieces starting from left to right on a 40' house as high as they can go butting it up against a vertical 1x4 and then continue with more rows of 16' up against another vertical 1x4 and then cut off 8' pieces to finish.I forgot that when they butt their 16' pieces up against the two 1x4's you will have 32' 7" so that would make the last piece 7' 5" minus the corner boardsNow they have a bunch of pieces left over to start on another of the house and butt those up against a vertical 1x4 and continue with 16' pieces and so on. Must look great and the production is fast as hell.Joe Carola