I glued up 13 deck post wraps out of 1x clear Western red cedar. 2 pcs 3/4 x 3-9/16 x 36, 2 pieces 3/4 x 5-1/16 x 36, glued up into square ‘tubes’ that slide down around 4×4 posts. Four biscuits per glueline. All the cedar came to me KD and has been stored dry in the barn for 6 months. It measured an average of about 14% MC right before glue-up, which was done indoors in heated space. The materials all stayed indoors overnight before and after being glued up. The glue was bought brand new at my lumber yard the day before the job.
As far as the workmanship goes, I’ve done hundreds and hundreds of glue-ups in my life, everything from a chess board I made in junior high woodshop to large and complex cabinets that took three guys to get together. All of the joints in this case were clean, correctly clamped, the right amount of glue and the right amount of squeeze-out. Everything looked perfect when I sanded it out.
After just a few days outdoors some of the joints are completely open, and others are on their way. About half still seem perfectly tight. I’m part way thru fabricating and installing the rail sections between the posts. I’m obviously going to have to take the whole thing back apart, salvage what lumber I can, buy a fair amount of new stuff, and start over. Gorilla Glue this time
There’s nothing on the Titebond web site about not using this glue with cedar. Perhaps I got a bad batch or maybe it was frozen on the way to the lumberyard.
Replies
In my millwork days we had a big fiasco involving Titebond glue. We turned these monstrous columns that ended up delaminating. After contacting the company, they said they would supply us with more glue. Wasn't that nice of them!
Resorcinol glue is the only way to go.....
That's bad news -- for you, but for me too, since I used a lot of this stuff on a porch project this past fall (with cedar and MDO).
Have you thought about calling Franklin to see what they have to say? It certainly seems that you did everything right, and the glue should not have failed.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
For all the hassle it would be, they'll just give me a couple of bottles of glue that I don't want. I'm mostly LIVID because I have this coming week to entirely finish the dam thing and now I have a setback of at least 8 hours plus the wasted wood.
We bought Titebond in 55 gallon drums and they didn't do squat when we had a failure.The work was done, by professionals, in a temperature controlled woodworking mill....and the columns delaminated.View Image
Hmmm.
You don't mention it, but I assume this is the exterior grade Titebond (sorry, I had to ask).
I"ve glued up several exterior joints, usually involving KD Fir and Hemlock using the exterior grade Titebond, painting the finished product...but Have not noticed the joint pull-aparts you've mentioned. And I believe the bottle advertises that properly glued joints can go through freeze-thaw cycles without breaking the joint.
Think I'd send Titebond what's left, and let them tell me what's wrong, cause this sure doesn't sound right.
BruceM
"You don't mention it, but I assume this is the exterior grade Titebond (sorry, I had to ask).
Actually he mentions it in the title.
One word.. ..Recorcinol.
That's it.
haven't used titebond 3 ...
but have used titebond 2 a coupla times in the past on outdoor projects constructed from glued up cedar ... no problems as of yet.
A coupla are close to 10 years old ... talked to that customer maybe 2 years ago ... things still looked as good as day one.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff
Titebond II is water resistant, where as titebond III is supposed to be closer to water proof. Still doesnt account for the failer that the OP had.
I'm with the guys that say resorcinol though, it never fails.
Doug
while we're on the subject ...
with wood ... who needs "waterproof"?
resistant seems good enough to me ... I was taught ... could be wrong ... that the moisture in the glue causes the wood fibers to raise up and intertwine, so to speak.
Not like we're glueing two nonporous surfaces ... where the glue actually has to physically bond the two materials.
Don't know ... maybe I was taught wrong ... maybe I remember wrong? Doesn't matter that much in my daily work ... so I'll not sweat it. I do know that a good glue joint is stronger than the wood around it.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff
Your partially right on the makeup of the glue joint. I think eventually if the joint is exposed to water/moisture it can/will fail.
On another note; You must be pretty ecstatic tonight! I didn't even see the game, came in from spraying cabinets and checked the net and saw the results!!!! Who'd a thunk it
I'll be rooting Pitt next week, cant stand Denver!
Doug
I have to commend you on your MC check on the WRC before glue up. Very few would actually take moisture content into account. Was that content determined by " oven dry ( most accurate ) " method, or was a pin or pinless device used. The WRC, should have reach EMC a long time ago, so this should have no bearing on the glueline failure. Additionaly, others have mentioned the use of resourcinol for this application. Resourcinol is, without argument, the most finicky of 2 part adhesives to use. I build wooden boats for a living, and 99.9% of my adhesive use is epoxy ( West System ). Resourcinol has gone bye-bye. Not to insult you, but sometimes the failure of a product is due to user error ( although I have no idea how you could have made a glue-up screw-up
I have used Resorcinol quite a few times, to glue redwood window sash and millwork (epoxy does not work with redwood). It is still available here but it's very expensive. That doesn't mean I won't use it, but I'm more inclined to use Gorilla because it takes no mixing. With resorcinol you're always throwing some away. I suppose I could use Smith & Co. All-Wood Epoxy too, but I have to order it UPS.
MC readings are with a Mini Ligno. I use it all the time. My feeling was that the KD material would be best to take on a small amount of moisture in the barn before being installed outdoors.
A buddy of mine is laminating long bows...I saw he had this stuff in his shop, I was impressed.
Try Here.
"Urac 185 can also be obtained through the Nelson Paint Company, whose mailing address is One Nelson Dr., P.O. Box 2040 Kingsford, Mich. 49802. Their telephone number is (800) 236-9278. Other urea formaldehyde glues on the market are Unibond and Resorcinol."..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I'd take resorcinol over epoxy any day, for gluing wood. Epoxy will glue TO wood, while resorcinol will glue IN wood. Makes a big difference in the quality of the joint and how it will stand up to stress, expansion/contraction, etc.Certainly resorcinol is more expensive, but it's still readily available (at least as of 6 months ago) and I find it a lot easier to mix and spread than epoxy.Gorilla glue is good (and easiest of all to use) if you want a gap-filling glue and you don't mind the mess.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
If what you say about epoxy is true, then there are a few hundred thousand boats out there that better get out of the water!. Resourcinol does have its place, hopefully not on a shelf for more than a year ( it has a shelf life about that long, Epoxy on the other hand, years). I also wonder why they use and epoxy and not resourcinol for edge bonding Corian to building the most cutting edge miltary aircraft.
The way boats are built is significantly different from standard carpentry gluing jobs.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Have to apologize if I seemed defensive in favor of epoxy, but resorcinol requires specific temperatures to cure, and a very tight glue line to achieve its strength. Epoxy has tremendous flexural strengths, and superior flexibility. If a joint is going to expand and contract enough to break an epoxy glueline, and not the substrate, that material being bonded probably needs fastened with a material with a compression yeild of 11,150 PSI, a tensile strenght of 8,000 PSI, and flexural strength in the range of 14,000 PSI
The problem with epoxy is that it requires a thick glue line, resulting in a section of the structure that is stiffer (or at least of different stiffness) than the surrounding wood, causing localized stress, and it doesn't really adhere to the wood all that well (doesn's soak in). It works well for a situation where you have a large area in contact, but not so well where you have a small, tight joint. It's also subject to creep.The absolute strength of epoxy isn't really an issue in wood construction. In general, with epoxy you'll see a joint fail due to stress failure of the wood right along the joint. The failure of the epoxy to soak in results in a strongly localized stress region at the inteface between epoxy and glue.Both glues are fairly temperature sensitive. With epoxies you have a wider range of materials to choose from, though, so you can in effect pick a temperature range.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
The idead behind bonding two materials together, in this case wood, is to create a bond stronger than the two pieces being joined. The strength of the bonding agent doesn't increase by depth of penetration. The only thing important to a bond is the adhesive(s) ability to key into the surface, and equally important is that the substrate doesn't absorbe too much adhesive, creating a glue starved joint. In regards to epoxy, West System Epoxy at http://www.westsystem.com has dedicated the past 25+ years into the study and formulation of epoxy for many civilian and other applications. I feel confident saying, but honestly mean no insult, your understanding of the properties of epoxies ( there are thousands of formulations for specific and general applications ) and science is based in opinion and not experience. Again, I apologize for seeming condescending, but I have thoroughly researched this topic over the past three years. Resorcinol does have its place, but it is a single formulation, with very specific requirements for success, try using it at 50 degrees, it will fail. Try using it underwater, it will fail. Try hiding its glue-line in anything but dark wood, it will fail. Take four pins, and put a drop of epoxy and a drop of resorcinol on two heads and join them to the uncoated heads, ( small areas I would say ) guess what, Resorcinol....................
> The idead behind bonding two materials together, in this case wood, is
> to create a bond stronger than the two pieces being joined.Wrong!! The idea is to creat a bond that is as identical as possible to the two pieces being joined, so that stresses are minimized. That's where epoxy generally falls short.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
When I break a cutoff from a glued up piece I expect the wood to break and not the glue line. How does that fit with what you're saying?
Yes, generally the wood is going to break. The question is when it will break?If the glue is exceedingly stiff, for instance, shear forces will quickly build up on the outer edges of the joint and it will fail under relatively low strain with a sort of domino or snowball effect.If the glue is softer, the shear forces will be more evenly distributed through a larger area of the joint, and the joint will withstand more strain before failing.There are several other considerations. A thin glue line will be less stiff than a thick one (if the glue is stiff), distributing forces more evenly. Similarly, a glue like resorcinol soaks into the wood slightly, distributing the stress through the wood vs concentrating it all on the surface.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I'm guessing you've already checked this, but there's an expiration date on the bottle, usually on the bottom. If it's past expiration, it'll lose strength.
I've seen bottles with expired dates on store shelves. It's worth checking.
Wierd.
I've used Titebond II every day for years without problems. I have only used III a few times but had no problems.
It would be nice to get to the bottom of your problem. Kinda worries me.
wasn't my problem- just offering ideas why the Titebond3 might have failed
Makes me wonder if the Tightbond products are going through some kind of shipping/storage issues that is allowing product to reach shelves once frozen so chemically it isn't up to speed yet looks normal upon application.
Just today I was inspecting a built in cabinet glued up last week with regular tightbond and the dried glue doesn't look right--too white. Checked the cabinet glued up last night at another job and same thing. New bottle, always kept in my "do not freeze" bag, which neighbors probably think looks like a big purse coming and going to work.
the dried glue doesn't look right--too white.
Sounds like what I've seen that froze one too many times.
I've had failure with II, have no intention of trying III. Never a problem with resourcinol. I've done a lot of bent laminations that were exposed to a lot of moisture. The original Titebond is still my preferred interior glue as long as creep isn't an issue. Moisture meter also used here.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Don, how cold was the area that the glued up pcs dried? I have had all (most) of the titebonds squeeze out turn white when the building it sat in went down to 40. No problems with the resulting glue up. Frozen /thawed titebonds look like coagulated yogurt, hard to sqeeze out of the bottle.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Frozen /thawed titebonds look like coagulated yogurt, hard to sqeeze out of the bottle.
That was always how frozen titebond that I've run into reacted. No doubt about it in that situation. Earlier this year the "do not freeze" bag was left out overnight and everything froze solid--titebond, elmers dark carpenter glue, DAP pink spakle, and painter's caulk--but not much below the freezing point. After thawing everything worked fine and test pieces were plenty strong. It seems that one "minor" freeze isn't enough to hurt, but I was very lucky that time. After another mild freeze the pink spakle and glue bit the dirt, but did not thicken and looked normal.
The face frames were glued up in 50 degree weather so temps probably weren't an issue.
For the latest round of builtins I picked up a new bottle, but that glue probably was exposed to the mildly freezing weather as well. From now on I'm going to test a bottle on something before using it on an important job.
The agents who sell Titebond 111,here in NZ,recommend this for serious outdoor use... http://www.excelglue.com
I have used it and it sticks like sh** to a blanket.
One advantage of Gorilla is that it can (according to mfgr) be frozen without damage.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
The shelf life was really bad in my exp.
I bought two 32 oz bottles when it hit the market, didn't quite use it up fast, and it was a rock in a bottle in about 4 mos.
Transfered some to a mustard squeeze for a buddy to try..rock hard in a week.
heyyyyy? Who needs Livitra? I got Gorilla glue..be right back.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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If you keep the plastic cap on Gorilla glue it seems to keep quite well -- I've had open bottles last a year or so. The main thing is that it has to stay dry -- it's moisture, not air, that cures it.Of course, since it comes in various sizes it's wise to buy the smallest quantity that's appropriate.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Yup. At that time, they had a container that was not impervious to moisture wicking, ya see, all plastic is not the same, some are hydroscopic...like milk in a ptfe vs milk in a cptfe..think recycle codes..some plastics are well air entrained, while another is not.
Ptfe was the choice at the time, and Guldens Mustard had a differnt "clear" yet permeable ptfe skin to protect and DISPLAY the product, the milky white polymer of GG was so permeable to moisture, it cured in the bottle...
soo uh..where was I?
Oh Ok..GG is good, but put it in a vacuum.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Maybe wrap the bottle in one of those nylon plastic bags they give you for food protection during termite fumigation. They're also nice for keeping portland cement products from going bad.
-- J.S.
I actully used an empty MRE sack, and foil tape. That worked.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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That's interesting to hear how fast your GG went bad- I've had an open bottle of the elmer's version of the stuff for about a year and a half now. it's almost gone, but it's still the same consistency as when I bought it. The relative humidity is so low where i live, i guess it doesn't get enough moisture to cure. I'm careful to mist anything i'm gluing up with water.
zak
One advantage of Gorilla is that it can (according to mfgr) be frozen without damage.
Working out of a truck in cold weather makes keeping a little Gorilla glue very handy. I've also wondered about using one of those electric warmer/coolers to keep glue and caulk above freezing.
Ahhh Jocobe I remember that failure... Franklin said the failure was due to improper clamping pressure... relative humidity... age of glue .... time of day ... day of week ... leap year .... sunrise .... sunset .... tax rates and anything else under the sun. Here's another 55 gallons of failure for free. Should have glued up a boat outta titebond and invited the sales rep out for a swim. ;-)
I didn't read all the posts so this may have been covered. Cedar is soft and very porous, changes drastically with humidity, the glue may hold up under moisture, but not excessive fiber movement. Last but not least cedar is an oily wood, not many glues will hold under those conditions.
David,
It will be interesting what Franklin has to say when/if you call them. I'd call if it were me, even if only to learn something new.
My guess is that you had a bad batch of glue. I had a failure like that once with Titebond 2 on white oak, and it never even got soaked in service! Like you I have a lot of gluing experience, and I redid that railing for the customer for free. Titebonds 1,2, and 3 have all been good to me with only rare exception.
What we really need is a badgluometer so we can detect problems before we glue up!
I did post boxes like yours on a deck once, but out of a dense tropical species. I used biscuits and resorcinol, and it worked well. Nasty stuff to use, but waterproof and a match for dense species in the strength department. WEST System says not to use their stuff for structural bonds on high-density woods, too little penetration.
If Franklin rep tells you anything meaningful, such as "TB III no good on red cedar," you have to share with the board. Good luck.
Bill
> What we really need is a badgluometer so we can detect problems before we glue up!
One -- admittedly time consuming -- approach to this would be to pick a species of wood that's cheap and readily available in your area, say Doug fir or pine, make some pieces of 1x2 a foot long, and face glue them to form an "L" shape. Give them overnight to harden, then break them by holding one end of the "L" on the middle of a bathroom scale, lean down on it and watch the numbers until it breaks. Also, look at the broken joint to see if it's the glue or the wood that failed.
Yes, that's a lot of work. But for a big expensive project, maybe worth it to have complete confidence in your adhesive.
-- J.S.
I've used Titebond III on several exterior applications and haven't noticed any failures, but maybe I need to go back and check some... There are some porch posts in the neighborhood where I'm working now... they are made of MDO...
Here are a few thought though:
It sounds like the wooden sleeves you built fit rather tight around the 4x4 posts? The inside on the sleeves are 3 9/16 x 3 9/16? I don't know the actual size of your 4x4s but would guess that they are around 3.5" x 3.5"? Are the 4x4s PT? If the 4x4s started drying out and twisting, bowing, etc, is it possible the 4x4s caused the post sleeves to be forced apart? Personally, I would have rather heard that the interior dimensions of the post sleeves were maybe 4" x 4" - min. I'm sure the 4x4s we get here are very different than yours - our PT ones are SYP, but they sure do like to twist, bow, etc both before and after installation.
Secondly, be aware that gorilla glue doesn't work right if it freezes before it is fully cured; I glued some spacer blocks inside some hollow laminated deck posts a few weeks ago and it froze that night. The next day the "squeeze-out" was obviously pretty weak.
I missed it the first time around. 14% is way to wet to glue up with any of the titebonds and expect it to stay together. 10% is the cutoff point and even thats pushing yor luck.
Did a search on Titebond/Franklin's technical query section - didn't get any hits for moisture content and no mention of it in the web info about type III. There is mention about oily boards needing an acetone rinse on the glueline to get good adhesion.
Riverman - where did you get the moisture content number - I'm not doubting you - in fact I find it very interesting. I'm now curious about the other Titebond products and the optimum mc range.
I talked to a Franklin tech rep this morning and he also mentioned the acetone wipe with WRC. His opinion on the MC was 6-8% max. Never mind that EMC around here a lot of the time is 10% indoors. I'd have to put my lumber in a room with a dehumidifier to accomplish that.
Obviously I chose the wrong glue. Too bad their website and packaging don't list any of this stuff, but buyer beware. I'm starting over with Gorilla glue, which I know for a fact will work great. It's just so dam messy.
Thanks for the update - that is a tight window for mc - along the Eastern seaboard, we have a hard time maintaining that tight a range.
I'm not aq fan of poloyurethane glues - all the strength tests I've seen put it close to the bottom when compared to other glues including PVA; however, the post wrap application is probably a good one for polyurethane.
I have another idea... wrap a chain around the deck, hook up to my truck, and drag the dam thing to the dump!
Actually, already got 4 replacement wraps in clamps. Tomorrow they go out in the rain and I'll keep ya' POSTED... haw haw.
where did you get the moisture content numberI can't recall for sure, years ago I had a glue failure and called National Casin Glue Co. thats when I learned moisture is a big factor. 6 to 8% is ideal however 35 years of doing this has shown 9% works an 10 is pretty iffy. On the other hand if your project is going to stay outdoors 10% would be ideal however then you need a different glue.
I have not tried Titebond III on cedar but I have used Titebond II and other aliphatic resin glues on Western Red Cedar with poor results. I believe there is something about the oils in the wood that spoil the glue bond.
Now I always use polyurethane glue (Gorilla Glue) on Cedar.
I've been wondering if Titebond III was better for cedar and now I have your data to warn me off. Thanks.
I've used Gorilla with great success on cedar. I'd be curious to know about anyone's experience with epoxy, which does not work well on redwood (similar tannins to cedar as far as I know). Resorcinol would be a 100% guarantee.
My first thought was the m.c was way too high....Franklin seems to be confirming that.
We've done tests on various adhesives here at the college.....glued up multiple samples with different adhesives and then submerged them for a while and tested them. Pretty brutal. I always include a regular PVA just to show the students (, but also type II and now type III....also polyurethane, powdered marine resin glue (this is a brand that can be found on shelves here, not 100% sure what it is), and West system epoxy. These tests aren't very scientific, just to illustrate a point....but based on test results, none of the PVA's meet my standard for anything but the lightest exposure outside. I have read the technical blurbs on the type II's and II's, and I literally don't buy it.
The marine resin glue is better, but sensitive to mixing, and takes a long time to build up strength. The poly and epoxies perform best, and the glue bond holds up even under our test conditions.
Re: epoxy and red cedar, once upon a time I was involved in restoring many of the totem poles in the Canadian Musueum of Civilisation.....involved regular and extensive glue-ups with cedar. Our standard was West System epoxy, and it always worked beautifuly....that's why I don't experiment much with other brands of epoxy.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Definitely seems like the MC was/is too high. I could only get 6% if I brought the entire load of lumber in the kitchen by the stove for a week or two. By definition, a lot of lumber that is used outdoors and needs gluing is never going to be that dry, at least not here. It may be that dry when it comes out of the kiln, but as soon as they put it on the truck and start moving it the MC starts climbing. A few weeks after drying it's going to be back above 10%. Grrrr...
David,Thanks for keeping us informed about what you learned. Adrian's post was also very interesting, too. He has done cedar with WEST System, and I have done lots of redwood with WEST, and never a problem. I have curved bent laminations of redwood that have been outdoors for 6 years in Colorado, 5 years in SoCal, with zero failure.Bill
Adrian,Would you be kind enough to detail the ways in which types 2 and 3 aliphatic glues failed your impromptu torture test? Thanks in advance.Bill
I should design a more scientific test for next time, and record the results....it's not very formal right now, but it illustrates the points we make in the classroom. We make up a number of test blocks out of scrap, around 3/4 x 3 x 6 or so.....different species, whatever is in the scrap bin. Some we edge glue (freshly prepared edges), and some get face glued. We glue them up with an offset so we can get a grip on them with clamps. Some we break apart the next day, or soon anyway, some we let go longer....weeks sometimes, because all glues do some curing very quickly, then the curve straightens out and it takes a long time to acheive maximum strength.
Then, some we submerge in a bucket for a while....that varies depending on what's going on. I know that exceeds normal conditions or what some of the glues are rated for (submersion), but I've also done it with repeated wettings rather than submersion with similar results.
Then we bust those apart. We'll set them up in a bar clamp and try to break the edge joint, then the face joint......or put them in a vice and whack them with a hammer. What we're looking for is to see how they stand up to abuse, and we're seeing a) where they fail and b) when they fail, is it the glue line or the wood failing....we observe for example whether it is 80% wood failure, or whether the glue let go.
The results over time have been pretty consistent....regular PVA turns to slime very quickly, the type ii's only do a little better. Type iii's which are supposed to be waterproof I believe (but still not rated for immersion) a little better yet, but still not great....they're pretty new, but I'm not impressed. PVA is my standard for interior work, but I don't trust it oustside.
The marine resin glue does much better, when it has set up long enough (I have a new resin glue to test also), the epoxy I know from lots of experience always does well.....the polyurethane does better than my first experiences of it would have lead me to believe....either I have gotten better at using them, or they have improved. Either way, with everything considered, that's the glue I reach for most often for exterior work now. Resin glue or epoxy when there are structural considerations.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Thanks, Adrian. Those tests sound pretty good to me, "scientific" or not.A friend in Colorado had utter failure once on a laminated countertop he did with plastic resin glue (not resorcinol). He did everything by the book, used fresh glue, dry hardwood, freshly jointed edges, proper clamping, warm shop, etc,etc. The top self-destructed in his truck as he was leaving his driveway to make the delivery. Every glue line came apart. He rejointed and used Titebond 1 (all they had then) and it was fine.My point is that these dramatic stories have a way of building product avoidance into our lives, even when they are exceptions. I have used plastic resin glue, and it worked fine, but I was nervous about it because of my friend's experience. David's experience and this whole thread will cause some of us to reexamine our faith in Titebond.When Titebond 2 first came out, the bottles said "waterproof" on them, right next to the little ducky. After a very short time the bottles said "weatherproof" instead. Then Titebond 3 came out with hoopla about being "fully waterproof." Now they say it is not intended for immersion. Why the he11 not? "Sort of waterproof" isn't waterproof at all! Maybe they'll get the disclosures correct when Titebond 4 comes out (ironic). For now, any critical gluelines in the wet will be epoxy or resorcinol. I'm not a gambling man. I wonder about the improvements to polyurethanes. I did some shop tests and decided they are good for mortise and tenon, but not for highly stressed gluelines. Have you seen a polyurethane develop the strength to tear oak rather than fail at the glueline? If so, I'll have to give them another look.Bill
Out of curiosity, have you found any differences between polyurathane glues? I wonder if paying 50% more for Gorilla Glue over Elmers Ultimate Glue is anything more than marketing.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I can't help but grin everytime I read the word "utter." *smirk*
You have udders on the brain, dude. Git back ta work!
Can't speak for Adrian, but I haven't noticed any difference between poly glues. Similar performance/applications. I personally don't like them, but they have their place.
I only used Gorilla Glue once,seemed like it left a very thick glue line. Anyone else notice that or was it just I didn't use it right?
Adrian
Well that's about the most comprehensive "non scientific" study that I've read.
that's the glue I reach for most often for exterior work now. Resin glue or epoxy when there are structural considerations.
Out of curiosity, what brand of resin glue do you prefer? I like west for epoxy but would like your opinion on the resin glues.
Thanks
Doug
Doug, and anyone else that was interested in brands-
Our testing isn't comprehensive.....I head to the hardware stores, and pick up new bottles of whatever is on the shelves. That said, I've tried three or four brands of poly glues....the brand we just tested this year was Probond by Elmers....tested well. Gorilla Glue has only very recently become available in my small town (Home Depot just opened up)....I've never used it so have no opinion, but now I'll have to give it a whirl. I haven't noticed any significant difference between brands so far though.
For resin glue, the one we have been using is called Dural Marine Glue AM-18....fairly easy to find on the shelf here. I wish I knew more about the glue....I've just been googling it and not turning much up, and have sent in a request for more info to the company, but they don't seem to have much of a presence at all. I did just bring in 25 lbs of a powdered pre-catalyzed urea formaldehyde glue (UF glues are what is often referred to as plastic resin glue) called PPR from Custom Bond.....good for structural work and has a type II water resistance.....haven't mixed any up yet. I got it for veneering mostly, and bent laminations. I can also get a liquid resin to which a catalyst is added, and resorcinol from the same supplier.
Re: John Sprungs test method......right idea, but I don't believe a bathroom scale will hold up to a well glued joint. Even your basic PVA's provide 3500 or more psi of bonding power....a bathroom scale can measure maybe 300lbs? We have a fairly fully equipped technical college here, and none of our shops have the equipment we need to accurately measure the point at which the glue fails. I have been in a wood science laboratory when they were testing adhesives though....pretty interesting. They were also testing I-beams with different adhesives, mostly poly....loading the beams to the point of failure. pretty impressive.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
If you want an accurate test jig, rig a lever arm so that it presses on the sample near in. Place a bucket far out on the lever and slowly fill with sand (rig a hopper to do this). When the sample fails, weigh the bucket and multiply the weight by the ratio of the two arm lengths.The force required to achieve failure depends on the configuration of the sample, and the ideal configuration depends a lot on the flexibility of the glue bond. I didn't entirely get Sprung's configuration, but it sounded like he was placing the joint in torsion, so max strain occurs only on the outer diameter. In general, for a small sample, the effective area of this outer diameter will be much less than a square inch.. . .We don't generally find marine glues on the shelf here, being in the only county in MN without a natural lake, and several thousand miles from the nearest salt water.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I haven't done it myself, but just guessed that 12" long pieces of 1x2 face glued perpendicular to each other at the ends to make an "L" shape would give you enough of a lever arm to be in bathroom scale range. If not, we'd need to choose a longer standard stick. Experiments are in order to refine the test specification.
Another consideration is that testing all glues with the same kind of wood will give us a valid heads up on possible bad batches, but for a specific job it would also be advisable to do tests with scraps of the actual material. Might as well do both, because the real cost of testing is the day's delay.
-- J.S.
Very interesting. Actually testing something is always interesting. Let us know if you test anything else construction related and what the results have been.
While we are on the subject of Titebond I would like to add a bit of hard learned info:
During the late 80 I built a spiral staircase, at that time my 6 th. unit.
Click on link for photo if you are interested. http://www.northernsunwoodworks.com/custgal3a.htm Up to that time I used titebond for all my laminations. The railing on this project was 14 plys of 3/16 red oak. At that time I switched to titebond 11 thinking the new and improved had to be better. The rail was glued up in three stages. After the second stage ply #5 through 10 started to peel off, not on the ends but about 3 feet up from the bottom. I grabbed a laminate and ripped it off. It took some effort but it came apart never the less, at that time the glue had cured for three days. I called Franklin Glue and the chemist told me titebond 1&2 should never be used for stressed laminations. I told him I had used it for years without problems and his words to me were. Tests had shown titebond to fail under cold creep loads 10 percent of the time. That means you can expect 1 in ten railings to fail or ten in a row then not have a problem for decades or use it for 20 years, then on the biggest project of your career have a total failure. His final comment was redo the rail use a resin glue and don’t’ use Titebond for stressed laminations. I keep a dated section of railing from every job I build. None of the earlier 6 came apart but all showed slight signs of cold creep. Staircases 7 through 45 used Unibond 800 and have not had any problems.
David,
I didn't notice if anyone else mentioned it but I don't believe Titebond is the proper product at all. I use Bag Balm on all the Utters I work on. Just a thought. DanT
What's Unibond 800? Is that a "white" glue or what?
Sorry I should have been more specific. See the link
http://www.vacupress.com/veneerglue.htmThe glue is a powered catalyst resin mix. The stylist comes in light, medium, and dark colors as well as can be mixed with a die to custom color to match the wood. The light is a maple/birch match, the medium a general wood color the dark covers the walnut range. The product has many unique working properties one of which is it sands clean without gumming sandpaper. For us that's a big plus since it extends the life of sanding belts.
Good call. As an aside, I once made a basement greenhouse cover...awful design, think 8' widex4' deep flower box 9' below grade..The guy wanted a "roof or skylight" to cover it.
I choose WRC and lexan hollow tube greenhouse material in a frame and panel type sloped cover..used resorcinal and biscuts. That was when I found that resourcinal is not gonna swell up the biscuts..so I basically had butt joints with nothing more than alignment keepers...live and learn.
I rebuilt the lid with full mortise and tenon and the same glue ( this was way before poly's and TB 2 ) and I hope it is still OK. (G).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
If half of the joints are tight and the rest failed, it appears to be your fault. What did you do differently?
Yes there is a warning about cedar on the Franklin site. On their FAQ page for Titebond, Franklin says that because of surface tannins, you must wipe down cedar, teak, or redwood with acetone immediately befoer gluing