Hello All,
I’ve got this situation here…
No one is forcing me to upgrade but that’s 4.25″ of wood spanning 6’2″ with a full story and half over it. I’m a little bit concerned and I think I can see deflection in the ‘header’. The SE we had on the job spec’d 10″ deep headers for any opening over 6′ (on the new construction part not this original bit shown here).
Should I replace this with a ‘real’ deeper header? How would you recommend doing it? One issue is that there is only room for 7″ of header in that spot. I’d have to lower the windows a couple of inches to fit a 10″ header in there.
Here’s what this looks like from the outside. The window in question is the window under the bump-out.
Should I be concerned about the joists in the bump-out?
I think they sagged when the house was jacked up for the new foundation. It looks to me like maybe these joists sag 1/4-1/2″ in 3′. Is that nothing to worry about? I’ve got new cracks that opened up in the trim around the windows but they have not gotten any bigger since the foundation redo.
Any constructive advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 6/21/2008 11:31 pm by madmadscientist
Edited 6/21/2008 11:32 pm by madmadscientist
Edited 6/21/2008 11:33 pm by madmadscientist
Edited 6/21/2008 11:34 pm by madmadscientist
Replies
Well, the old saying goes, "If it aint broke"
"It is what it is."
Well, the old saying goes, "If it aint broke"
I know I know...but still I believe that by modern standards that header is way under designed and well...I am planning on staying in this house for a loooooong time so I have a serious case of 'do it once so it will last another 100yrs cause I aint redoing it when I'm 90'.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
My first instinct would be to leave it. Many years old & it works. Why over-think it? But if it really made me nervous, I would wonder if there were a way to slip a 2x4 in that space between the windows.
"...that's 4.25" of wood spanning 6'2" with a full story and half over it."
Well, not really.
That bay window will have a beefy header spanning its opening that delivers loads from above at least 2 feet outside the 6'2" RO of the window in question. The only loads on your 4.25" header [looks to me like a 1.5" header with tiny cripples and a top plate and cap plate above it] would be two or three cantilevered floor joists and the portion of the floor and bay loads that rest on them.
Does the other basement window also have such a small header? That one appears to carry full gable-end wall loads clear up to the roof.
Hi Bruce,
I do not belive that there is a 'beefy header' spanning that bay window. There is no evidence of any posts either.
The other window is the same. With the double 2by6 top plates acting as a header (I measured and they are 4.25 inches thick.).
If this house was built to modern standards then maybe but this place was constructed in 1897.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I missed the fact that there are no trimmers on either side of the 2x6 below the top plates, so there is no help from that member.Since the framing is true 2x6, your full dimension top plates cut from old growth timber are certainly stronger than three modern 2x6's or a modern 4x6.I certainly would not want to compromise the lateral strength of the wall plates by cutting out a section to install a thicker header over a window RO that has performed well for 110 years. Can you slip in a 2x6 on either side of the window as a trimmer under that single 2x6 spanning the window opening? If so, you would convert it into a true header and thereby increase the overall strength of the opening by nearly 50% with little effort.Is it possible to sister the studs on both sides of the window opening with 2x8 LVL as a support for a 2x7 LVL across the surface of the studs above the window and bearing on the bottom edges of the floor joists?
BruceT
Since you're worried about it; fix it.
Either lower the window or put a beefy 7" header in. The 7" header could be a steel I beam. That would be very easy to slip in there...an hour tops with most of that being sawzall work.
You could opt for two or three 7" microlams. Again, it's about an hour of sawzall work.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Since you're worried about it; fix it.
Either lower the window or put a beefy 7" header in. The 7" header could be a steel I beam. That would be very easy to slip in there...an hour tops with most of that being sawzall work.
You could opt for two or three 7" microlams. Again, it's about an hour of sawzall work.
Hi Jim,
I am worried about it but I'm open to the option that I am being just a nervous nelly and its fine as is. The SE spec'd 6by10 headers for any opening in a 6" deep wall larger than 6'.
I'll check with the SE about weather or not a 7" deep PSL type header would be strong enough.
I just looked at the framing above for the bump-out more carefully and that double 2by6 top plate is carrying the load of the bump-out cantelever and the roof above it and the floor joists above it. That's got me more concerned.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Are you using the weight pockets any more? If not, then I would pull that piece of interior trim between the two windows to expose the double weight pocket. Add a jack or two from header to sill and then from sill down to foundation or joist. Now you've split the load your header is carrying in half.
I also think that it wouldn't hurt to replace that header with something a little more substantial that is supported by jack studs. I mean... it's already wide open.... the hard part is over with. It's just an hour or so's worth of framing.
In many cases, I'm a fan of 'it's been that way for 100 yrs, why mess with it". But in your case, your house has recently suffered some trauma with the jacking and new foundation. It's probably due to have some new settling occur as it nests itself in on that new foundation. It'd be a shame to have your new finishes crack in 6 months or so knowing that you could have fixed it with an hours work while it was wide open.
So... personally.... I'd rip some LVL stock. I'd probably take out the first (lower) top plate and fill from there down to about 1/2" away from the window with LVL. I'd cut your existing king studs down into jacks... and sister a new king to the outside of each. And then I'd add that center jack. Not much work and a substantial improvement.
That's a good idea for halving the span.... Dang problem is that we are still using the windows as double hungs and they are in pretty good shape all things considered.
What I think I should do is.... Build a tempory wall on the outside of the house to support the joists of the bumpout-and level the joists at the same time. Cut out both 2by6's over the window. Sister on new 2by10's to the joists(to help with the sag). Install new correctly sized header (this might require lowering both windows on this outside wall...) While I'm at this maybe I should just remove all the siding on this wall so I can actaully sheath it...
Dang see why I'm trying to wuss out of not doing this...I'm going to have to rebuild the entire wall practically...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Well.... if you're going to go that far with all of this.... here's what I think I'd do:
I wouldn't mess with the outside (or lowering the window) unless there was absolutely no other option.
So I'd think really hard about cutting out both plates and getting a triple 7" LVL in there as a header. Obviously, I'm not an engineer.... but it'd be worth asking yours if he thinks that will cut the mustard. You have to at least make an attempt at not having to make a mess out of that outside wall on yourself.
If that'll fly.... then I'd build the temp wall outside to hold up what's above. Then cut out your plates to make some room to work. Get your sistered joists in. Then get your header in with suitable jacks and kings. And then tie the header to the broken top plates on each end with Simpson straps for integrity of the plates.
You're not a wuss for trying to avoid opening up that exterior wall. Any smart carp would try to avoid that at all costs. It'd be dumb to just rip it open and create all that additional work unless it was absolutely necessary. Pursue all other options first.
That's an ambitious project you have going on there. Good for you for not only taking it on... but trying to do it right as well. Any bozo can tear a place apart. Putting it back together the right way (for the long haul) is what counts.
If you're still using the weights and pockets for window operation then that option is pretty much out if you want operable windows and are not going to swap them out for modern replacements. Which is something you 'may' want to consider. Lot of energy lost through those uninsulated pockets. But, on a project like yours, there is obviously some merit in keeping it as 'stock' as possible as well.
And now that we're really considering upgrading the header.... if that 7" LVL won't make grade (and I suspect it will) then Blue's idea of using steel is getting more and more appealing. It'll be a little bit harder to restore the integrity of the continuous top plate, but not impossible either. And still easier than reworking the height of the RO and that exterior wall finish.
View Image
Edited 6/22/2008 4:01 pm ET by dieselpig
You may have the room in the center of those windows to place 1 stud
You may have the room in the center of those windows to place 1 stud
Only if I take out the weights and make the windows non-functional?? Is there a way I can keep the windows functional and remove the weights?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Here's a picture that might help explain why I think I need to beef up this double 2by6 header spanning 6'-2".
View Image
So the header is supporting those cantelevered 2by10 joists, the walls of the bump-out and its little mini-roof.
That seems like a lot for that header no? I'm not super anxious to do this but I want to 'do it right' ya know?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 6/22/2008 3:55 pm by madmadscientist
I guess you checked the attic for the header over the bay window area and not just looking for a header spanning the gap below the ceiling plane, right?
I guess you checked the attic for the header over the bay window area and not just looking for a header spanning the gap below the ceiling plane, right?
Yes that is what I did. I even took a picture of it but our new fancy pants Olympus water-dust proof camera decided to stop talking to the computer...
Where you would think that there should be a header is just a nice and tiday drywall seam. The floor joists for the top floor just continue on and bear on the outside wall of the bump-out.
No wonder why the bump-out sagged so much after they jacked the house on big steel I-beams and temporarily increased the cantelever by 2' to 5'...schmucks.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
when you jack the bump-out I wouldn't expect the joists to straigthen out much if at all. Probably best to build the new header (if you go this route and of whichever material) to the same height and leave the joists with the sag.
The issue of joist sag is interesting. I know that the cant. joists sagged recently so maybe they havent taken a set yet and I can jack them back up...? I do like the idea of sistering on new joists to the old to help. Do you think that that's unneeded?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
An I beam placed correctly would allow the window weights to still operate. You may have to re tie the weights to get the vertical I beam in place and of couse weld ends on the beam.
Gotcha that makes sense...I'm actually trying to work on the wife to see if I can get her to agree to swap these windows out with Marvin Integrity wood-ultrex windows....then I will definately have room to do a regular wood header as the span will be 3'.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I'm with dieselpig in thinking that a 7" LVL would be a hack of a lot better than what you've got. I hate using steel in exterior walls because of heat loss. But that may not be as big of a deal for you.
Why are you IN a movie, but you're ON TV?
Well from looking at the situation do you think its a 'must-do' or should I leave sleeping dogs lie?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I don't know that I would consider it a "must do".but if you're in the middle of remodeling the whole place, it would be a lot easier to do now rather than 5 years down the road when everything else is finished. Of course - That's easy for ME to say...(-:
I've always been a dreamer, spent my life running around. But it's so hard to change... [The Eagles]
Daniel, I've just figured out that your original picture was taken from down below the first floor. DOH! You're solution is very simple if you don't mind a little creativity in your basement wall. Just come inside the window frame with a new header and post system. "Box in" the window. Done right it would make for an interesting design feature. It certainly would eliminate all the sawzall work and you'd have total flexibilty in adding as many 7" plys (steel, wood or kryptonite) as you need. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's an interesting idea Jim but what would the posts bear on? I only have the 4" thick concrete floor there...?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
The footings generally are poured wider than the basement walls. Generally, there is a 4" ledge of the footing that extends out and carries the basement slab. I'd bet that you have something under there to catch the new weight. Even if I'm wrong, you are thinking about doing nothing and just letting the existing undersized header do the work. My suggestion greatly improves the situation even if it's only a 4" slab catching the weight. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
WOW!!! all this talk and not one person offered alternatives like ... STEEL???
All the girations you seem to be willing to go through ... then consider some steel alternatives. One might be cables in a 'V' across both sides w/ turnbuckles ... OK, difficult, but no less so than a lot of what I'm hearing.
How about a steel section instead of LVL? Steel can give you superior structure in a fraction of the space!!
These are just two options ... Bet there are more!
Sometimes you just have to free yourself of wood and nails and do what it takes to look outside the [wooden] box you've nailed yourself into.
A structural engineer could give you some options as long as you don't tell him you want it done w/ wood only.
Actually Jim reccomended steel about 10 posts ago and I agreed with him about 5 posts ago.View Image
WOW!!! all this talk and not one person offered alternatives like ... STEEL???
Yes that is an option I do lean more towards what I would consider to be a simpler to install option which would be a PSL header.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I'd replace the center weights with retrofit springs (an article in JLC a few months ago listed a supplier as would a FHB search I'm sure)...and use that space for a small steel post or 2x. It looks like your house will need extra help in other places so the money saved over other options is probably a good use of funds.
In more extreme cases it's not uncommon to add weight bearing verticle support to the design of the center section, perhaps including the trim as well. I use something like a straight grained oak and build as much verticle support into the space as is humanly possible, along with a good bearing top and bottom to complete the load path.
The space for the center weights is a simple rectangle so it would be possible to have a steel post built that would fit in the space and allow the weights to still be used. Probably have to weld the weights inside the boxed post.
To impact the header area as little as possible, leaving the plates in tact, yet reinforce it, I'd take some careful measurements from the bottom of the joists to the window openening and have a steel C-channel welded up that could be easily fit in the space. I'd jack up the joists and slide the channel in. Watch out to make sure the joists can be jacked up to the point they are level without cracking. Some steel angle iron brackets can be cut to act as jack studs for the steel header and bolted into the existing studs, leaving enough room for the window weights to be retained.
I see a 4" tall MC-channel (ship and car) http://www.metalreference.com/20%20HR%20Channel,%20MC%20shapes.htm that is 3-1/2" wide, 3/8" thick and at 18 lbs per foot it's an awful lot of steel. I would be confident it will span the space by itself, but that will cost as much for an engineer as the beam itself to say for sure.
Personally, I'd take out the window, take it apart, referbish as needed and rebuild to act as a load bearing part of the openeing, add a steel c channel to the header area and call it good.
Best of luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Can you beef up the joists with some steel (mini flitch plates?) and then retrofit the rim board on the cantilever to act as a header? maybe cut the joists back and install a psl for the rim board. id add another set of trimmers in there.
The 2 joists on the sides of the window would need the most beefing up as they would act as cantilevered king studs.
at the same time it might solve the sagging of the cantilever?
Tell me im crazy.
Did you post this Q some months ago? If not I am having dejavu.
I was also going to sugest steel. Except instead of making it a 7" tall I beam I would have a box beam fabricated to the same dimensions as the doubled up 'sill plate' Then all you have to do is cut out the existing 'sill plate in and slide the new box beam in it's place. I would ad a couple of jack studs on either side to carry the remainder of the sill plate.
AH HA a little searching found you out. You are double posting!
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=96942.1
And my recomendation is the same.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=96942.66
Did you start the kitchen remodel yet?
Edited 6/23/2008 11:49 pm ET by reinvent
AH HA a little searching found you out. You are double posting!http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=96942.1
Nope that was a different situation where I was day-dreaming about building a bump-out in the kitchen.
But ha I guess actually this is kinda the same thing. Fixing the existing bump-out is similar except the existing has more load on the 'header' the floor joists bear on...
Nope stalled out on the kitchen remodel I am hoping susie here is going to help us out...can't seem to square how much quality cabinets cost with what we want to spend....
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Can you check how the roof is framed over the bay? The cantilever sagging is almost non-issue here and the house has stood well for many years, so there must be a reason for it. Your roof is steep so snow does not stay on the roof and do you have a valley next to the bay? Maybe the rafter that forms the valley carries a lot of the load. The knee wall may be carrying the roof load as well.
The 1x stock for the windows and even the 1x t&g siding can carry the load as well, as I found out from my last house. I did correct the siding carrying the load, but in your case, if you don't plan to put full second story over the existing bay, it may be worth your peace of mind to have an engineer look at it. The best solution for diy seems to be to change to smaller windows and put in a full header or a square steel tube filled with concrete and rebars. I am against cutting into the top plates just because I imagine it as cutting the house in half. Hope this helps.