The discussion “Why The High Cost?” got me wondering what the salary range is nationwide.
What do you see (low to high) in your area for laborers, helpers, carpenters, and supervisors?
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Alabama Mississippi coast, laborers with comp., 9 to 12, helpers to carpenters with comp., 10 to 22 or 23. Thats all non union.
Fairly good to really good carpenters, $20-30 hour plus a few bennies. Laborers would be $15 but they endanger the health and welfare of themselves and others, so no deal. Foreman capable of replacing me would be $35 on payroll or $40+ if hired as a quasi-legal sub.
For burden I pay the same 7.65% as everyone else, plus about $2.10 per hour for comp and 3% for UI.
U.S. Department of Labor
Bureau of Labor Statistics
http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm
if you want to know what is in your state. at least what is paid in to the fed look there. you may have to digg a bit to get the numbers you need.
Cool -- thanks.
laborers -- $8-10; (laboready $12, pays $9) high around $10-12
helpers -- $10 to $15 (specialized trade, electrical, plumbing, etc. can get higher closer to JM status
carpenters -- $10 - $25 (W2); $25-$100 (1099)
supervisors -- $12-15 to $18-25, occasionally higher
A super for $12? What's he in charge of?
A super for $12? What's he in charge of?
Confusion.
I was including leads/FM/PS in that category, since it really didn't specify. CM ought to start about $40; but many places hire as "estimator" for $33-35/yr "oh, and we'll promote you to Construction Manager later" (among other famous lies . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
David
This is Texas, not unusual to see and ad in the paper for an experienced carp with truck, phone and all the necessary tools; pay $8 - $10 depending on experience!
Doug
How can you even afford gas on that wage? Do any carpenters own houses??
Around here top dollar for an employee who can do pretty much anything asked of him is about $15-16 an hour. That's running the crew, the guys under him make from $8-12.
I get calls from GC's daily who want me to do this or that for $12 an hour. Licensed and insured for $12 an hour is fricken ridiculous. Especially to fix screw ups or do the crap someone else didn't want to do. I tell them $25 an hour minimum and they call someone else every time.
Union carps pull around $28 an hour with full benefits and retirement on top of that. Most of them are dead in the water now and have been for a while. I can't bring myself to do their line of work though. Not enough wood involved anymore.Can't you hear the violin playing your song.
75926.15 in reply to 75926.14
Around here top dollar for an employee who can do pretty much anything asked of him is about $15-16 an hour. That's running the crew, the guys under him make from $8-12.
Thats about the same as I posted as well. I can hire people to frame houses for those figgures. I know two brothers who frame that make 15 a piece.
Tim
We bid lump sum and piece-work both for alot of g.c.'s. We are usually competitive either way. We shoot for $40 bucks an hour per guy from the grunt on up. The grunt makes $11 on up to $21-$22 for our top guy. They all get quarterly bonus based on perf. and we usually beat our targets by 15-20%
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
We bid lump sum and piece-work both for alot of g.c.'s. We are usually competitive either way. We shoot for $40 bucks an hour per guy from the grunt on up. The grunt makes $11 on up to $21-$22 for our top guy. They all get quarterly bonus based on perf. and we usually beat our targets by 15-20%"
The funny thing about it is that your method or similar works in about every trade . There are people working for poverty wages doing trades and they would make more by bidding but they dont .
We talked about it here several times over the years. People dont know jack unless you tell them. Hell most contractors dont seem to know their cost so how would the public know anything? The only way they do know is to compare bids if they can get two contractors to even call them back. Working for GCs is a close game though and you passed that test too.
I said I was going to quit one time and the GCs didnt let me even though I was charging much higher prices. If I was going to still work I was going to get paid and they did . I could have done it all along and didnt find out till the end of my carreer with them.
Anyway this is the wrong thread for this discussion. I couldnt help it when I read your post.
Tim
Believe me there are days that I wish I made an hourly wage, worked my tail off all day and nothing got done. Still have overhead to cover.Can't you hear the violin playing your song.
I've always been able to find double that when working for a shop and while doing my own thing I price about what I would any other place.
I dont know how anybody gets help at those wages, my guess is that they arnt getting anybody that knows anything, but does have a truck!
I've seen the adds, dont know what they get for responses! I know before answering one of those adds I'd take a job at McDonalds, at least you'd get bennies.
Doug
You must have never worked at McDonalds. They make about 6 an hour with no benfits. A manager may make 30,000 a year with health insurance at some stores. My wife worked there before we got married and I can tell you that no job I have ever had in construction sucked as bad as working at McDonalds.
Seriously I didnt have a clue what McD's paid but I figured before I give up my skills as a carp for 8 -10 an hour I'd give the hamburger flipping thing a shot!
I do know of a McD's that pays typical workers in execess of $12 an hour, I'm sure it's all related to location and demand for workers.
Doug
I eat breakfast at McDonalds and coffee shop crew at the same time .
Wife wanted to know if there was an eagle there who could geter done .
I said he manager can .
She said ask her if she might be interrested in a sales postion.
I asked her just that and she said " it would have to start greater than 40 thousand." She didnt get interviewed.
Tim
replenishing the t.p. in the porta-jon
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
Most of Arkansas labor starts at 7.00 per hour. Temps work and stay at 7. Some kinds of labor doesnt draw 7. Most factory jobs are working at 8.00 to 10.00 here and that also hires handymen cash money. Teachers draw an average of 32,000 and they say they arent paid enough but wont take a job here. They just bitch but will not quit . I wish they would ship them to New Orleans. They are still needing them down there , we arent. We are a teacher producing state and we prefer to keep the young ones.
Carp helpers make 8 to 10 . Carps draw 15 to 20 . In business for themselves they now run about 25.
Sparkys make 10 to 25 and charge 50
plumbers make 15 to 22 and charge 75
HVAC guys , you cant hire them unless you are willing to pay 45 an hr full time . They are billed at 300 per hour. The schools took most of them and made them rich. The last two I paid were at 300 per hour.
Tim
Edited 7/10/2006 5:37 pm by Mooney
Sparkys make 10 to 25 and charge 50
plumbers make 15 to 22 and charge 75
About the same here, except that the all-hours plumbing places can bill $200, and pay $25/hr for the "on call."
The hvac guys are all over the place--but so is the equipment they work on. And the licensing, too.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
So, about 98% of the people living there are dirt poor?
Pretty much David except the cost of living is really low too. Thats hiow they geter done . There are still apartments and houses that rent for 350 per month. I dont rent to that market but they are there . A mobile home can be had for as cheap as 250 per month. Taxes are still considered cheap. With child credits they dont make enough money to pay many taxes.
Tim
"houses that rent for 350 per month"My parking space costs that per month.
lol.In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
in northern illinois a union gig for a carpenter is 36.32/hr with medical, dental, optical, pension and annuity. apprentices start 1st yr at 50% jw wages and then goes 60, 70 80 till four years and then they are jw's.
damn i love the union!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
carpenters local #58 chicago, il.
Beautiful (?) Elmira NY
"The buckle on the rust belt"
Labor 7-10
helper 10 -13
Carp 14-20
leads 15-22
I have no comment...
MisterT: Do you own a construction company in Elmira? Are these the wages you're paying? Do you offer any additional benefits? What do you figure you must bill customers per hour to pay a helper making $13/hr?
I'm in a rural area of upstate N.Y., and have recently started doing paid jobs. I'm reading David Gerstel's "Running a Successful Construction Company," and it seems I'm not charging enough to even cover my overhead. And that's bare bones at the moment.
Thanks.
Oh, just checked your profile. "Non-profit"? That's me, too, though not intentionally!
Allen
I'm in your boat too.
46 in august
long time carp
always worked for others
now I'm getting ready to make the transition...
I have no comment...
always worked for others
now I'm getting ready to make the transition...
MisterT: I hope your transition goes well. With your years of experience in the field, you're quite a few steps ahead of me. I'll be curious to know how you handle the business end of things -- insurance, contracts, etc. -- especially in this "thriving" upstate/southern tier economy.
Allen
Pittsburgh.
Carpenters as employees $15-20
Carpenters as subs $15-20(some guys just don't get it)
Laborers and helpers $8-$12
The last real carpenter I had on payroll was at $24/hr, but he had his own truck.
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
Pittsburgh.
Carpenters as employees $15-20
Carpenters as subs $15-20(some guys just don't get it)
Laborers and helpers $8-$12
The last real carpenter I had on payroll was at $24/hr, but he had his own truck.
Thats bout right on the damn money! They dont get it and so far theres too many doin it . Prices are really close to the money too.
Tell ya what ; In the roofing trade thats leaving a problem. Comp is very high on a roof and so is insurance . It dont pay fer those guys above to do it and fail. You might live with a cobbled carpentry job of one days work before you catch it but the roofers need to be the real deal. Here those same multitalented carps will strip and nail a roof with out insurance and the home woner thinks they are gettin a heck of a deal until sh^t hits the fan. Either the uninsured sub pays or the homeowner . Bad deal. Then if someone gets hurt , oohh. I tried to get temps a few weeks ago to strip a roof and they wouldnt send them because their insurance would not cover it . My Grandson and I had to do the job in set ups .
Tim
Tim
I'm in Western Ma. making 16.00, lunch break only, no o.t.,regardless of hours worked, no benefits of any kind, and actually feel lucky to have the work. With 4 kids, a wife(does home daycare, and makes about the same as me), we scratch out a living.
Bob
Bob, where in western ma?
VT.lab
I live in Westfield, and work in Amherst.
Bob
Western MA, South County - my estimate$15-$20 p/hr Semi Skilled Carpenters Employed,
$20-$27 p/hr with own comp as sub$25-$35 p/hr Skilled Carpenter Emloyed,
$30-$40 p/hr Skilled with own comp as subif that makes any sense..VT.. where are you and
Bob where are you...?http://www.notsobigbuildingcompany.com
Oh boy your boss is in for a rude awaking when you get fed up and call the wage and hour division of the state, don’t forget the IRS. Both of those entities takes a very dim view of some one ripping of employee of over time.
The last case I heard of they got all of there over time plus interest. The employer got a very big fine.
Just keep track of your time. So you can prove what you worked.
This is going to sound strange to most, But, this guy gave me a chance when others wouldn't. I won't report him.
i'll gain experience,techniques, and move on when oppurtunity presents.
Bob
If your boss is actually some guy you really like you might actually be doing him a favor by pointing out that he is seriously on the wrong side of the federal labor laws. I know of a guy near me who went for years without paying his employees overtime and when one guy when to the labor department after getting laid off the dam broke on him and he ended up paying not only that employees back overtime but all the employees he ever had got their back pay and it broke him completely. He had to sell his house to pay all the back wages and fines.The biggest pile of crap is that most contractors really don't understand the concept or the math of overhead recovery but if they did they would know that paying overtime (time and a half on wages for those overtime hours) really doesn't cost them anything extra. If they have the correct billing rate in place in the first place their overhead for the week was already paid for by the 40 hours the employee has already worked. Then with those extra hours the portion of the billing rate that would have normally been allocated to cover overhead is then free and available for other things and is more often than not more than enough to cover the increase in the wage.
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Thanks for the advice, I'm sure he is aware of it, but he has a narcissistic nature about him, and I will end up on his bad side if I say something. Right here, right now, I'm learning the framing end of things to supplement my finish strengths.I wish the contractors I know of had your insights, unfortunately, they don't.
Bob
Well I guess you can always look at it this way. Sooner or later someone is going to roll on him. It maybe next week, it may not be for a few years, but when it does you'll be in line to collect all that back due money with interest.
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Payroll Positions: South West Montana (non union)
General labor: Base pay with cash fringe pay = Total $13.00 -16.50
Carpenters: Base pay with cash fringe pay = Total $21.00 - $27.00
Journeyman & Leads: Base pay with cash fringe pay = $30.00
Production Managers & Project managers:
Base Pay with fringe cash pay = $32.00-$35.00
Tool allowance (min.= $.20) - (max=$2.75)Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
up here in Canada i build stairs and balustrades on site and make $10 per hour and the owner (who doesn't even show up unless it is collection day) bills my time at $13. sheesh!"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Buddy you must be working under the table as $10 a hour + legally required benefits amounts to approx 13.50 per hour without taking into account other overhead and proffit.
You should go work with the mexicans south of the border you would fit in just fine !
Here in Connecticut are Mexicans are starting at $14 cash/hour, ride to and from work, and paid lunch.They don't do stairs, thank god.
Greg in Connecticut
Mexicans?
what the hell is that?
maybe you ment to say men, hispanics ,latinos or something else.
and by the way it's our not are if you are going to continue to try to type the way you talk.
Around here their called Illegals, but some are not , but most are!
I don't see the harm in calling the Mexicans, fact is they're probably from Mexico, which makes them Mexicans, If they were from Canada would it be offensive to call them Canadians?
I can think of several far more derogatory names the guy could have used.
Around here we have many OTMs, (other then Mexicans) most from countries south of Mexico. When it comes to work the groups do not get along well with each other.
Mexicans dont trust each other with their beer here .
Tim
Fair point. I watched a show on the Discorvery Times Channel a while back, can't recall the name, it was about coming to the US illegally and the camera crew essentially followed a group of boys/men on their journey from a country other then Mexico. I can't remember which though. From what I remember the US border was not nearly as tough to get across as the travel from their home going north and getting into Mexico.
heh heh
be View Image
We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
no...i get a monthly paycheque...it's legit. I'm thinking of getting a second job because it's hard to raise my kids with that wage. I heard drywallers make good money...i think there up to $12 an hour (the good ones) and the foreman makes $14? Quartersawn oak and gypsum..whats's the difference anyway...
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
Quartersawn oak and gypsum..whats's the difference...
you can fk up a lot more gypson then qtr sawn for the same money.
what size city/area do you live in?
Winnipeg, Manitoba...population 600,000....2 hours drive north of Grand Forks North Dakota. sometimes -40 in the winter and sometimes 100 in the summer.
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I'm surprised wages are so depressed in the area.
I also find it hard to believe your boss can bill you out 3 dollars an hour over wages, I don't know how it works out in Canada, here are burden rate is about 45% above paid wages.
I'm thinking of getting a second job because it's hard to raise my kids with that wage. I heard drywallers make good money...i think there up to $12 an hour (the good ones) and the foreman makes $14?
Wow, that's entry-level drywall wages, here. Mind you, the turnover can get rough, working drywall when it's 95ºF.
Trim man with tools ought to be making $15-18 (US) in my neck of the woods. With your own shingle out, ought to be getting around $25/hr.
Thought about moving out of the GWN?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Wow, that's entry-level drywall wages, here. Mind you, the turnover can get rough, working drywall when it's 95ºF.
Trim man with tools ought to be making $15-18 (US) in my neck of the woods. With your own shingle out, ought to be getting around $25/hr.
I wonder if most carps think that . Ive been fortunate being able to do it all from my family training . Not even trying to brag but specialty subs make more than carpentry. My bid rates compared to what I turned an hour were always higher than what carps charged. Maybe Im in a depressed area for carps . Who knows . Carps are on the bottom here in the trades. Plumbers and electricians double carps to three times. Anyway my bid rate divided per hour well surpassed carpentry doing drywall.
Tim
wow... i'm from atlantic canada and money is pretty scarce there too, but a good helper can get $12/hr...and you're doing stairs??!....and u say a good drywaller can get $12/hr?...that's really depressing, i can't imagine trying to support a family on that...none of my business but you need to have a look around and make sure you're not the only one stuck on a 1985 paycheque...
i can't stand gettin paid every 2 weeks, let alone once a month...
here in Maine, I get $12 an hour plus health ins. company truck (w/ gas) and retirement matching.
St. Louis residential Journeyman wage is 26.76 an hour with full insurance, dental, optical and a pension. 1st term apprentices start at 14 something an hour (55% of Journeyman wage) and go thru 8 terms of apprenticeship before they can become a Journeyman. Takes 5 years to become a Journeyman here.
Every six months the apprentices go to a dedicated carpentry school for two weeks (which is funded by the union) and get a raise with the completion of assigned projects in school (they call em "units" at the school) and 750 hours of on the job experience. First raise is at 750 hours and a two week stint at school, second raise is at 1500 hours and a two week stint at school and so on and so forth.
Don't know anything about laborers, sparkys or tinners blah blah blah. My brother is a non union carpenter now, he gets 20 bucks an hour and a company truck that he has to put gas in. No insurance, no retirement and so far, no overtime pay. That's about all I know about non union wages here.Jeff
$10 a hour + legally required benefits amounts to approx 13.50 per hour without taking into account other overhead and proffit.
No lie, ought to be billing the works hours for $25-35/hr or the owner will go broke working. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I was making close to $20 an hour working for a GC in Canada 20 years ago.
you don't even look over 35...
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
I wish. Lot's of Labatts Blue has helped to preserve me I guess.
The last case I heard of they got all of there over time plus interest. The employer got a very big fine
No lie. 'Round here, the practice by DoL/EEOC is to subpoena your employee records, audit them, then the fine is triple damages (what is owed to every 'wronged' employee). Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hawaii
Laborers 10 - 15
Carpenters 20 - 35
Supervisors 20 - 60
Plus Burden
Jason
This is the link for the entire prevailing wage list for Will County, Illinois (just southwest of Chicago) which is basically 100% union unless it is low-profile private construction off of the beaten path. Residential is usually union here so the same rates apply.
http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/rates/EVENMO/WILL9999.htm
Here are a few highlights:
Trade Name RG TYP C Base FRMAN *M-F>8 OSA OSH H/W Pensn
==================== == === = ====== ====== ===== === === ===== =====
CARPENTER ALL 34.800 38.280 2.0 2.0 2.0 5.650 9.260
CEMENT MASON ALL 35.500 37.500 2.0 2.0 2.0 6.400 8.830
ELECTRICIAN BLD 34.500 37.610 1.5 1.5 2.0 7.920 10.53
LABORER ALL 30.150 30.900 1.5 1.5 2.0 6.860 3.940
OPERATING ENGINEER BLD 1 41.550 45.550 2.0 2.0 2.0 6.850 5.600
PAINTER ALL 34.400 38.700 1.5 1.5 2.0 6.200 6.400
PLUMBER BLD 36.000 38.000 1.5 1.5 2.0 6.000 8.000
ROOFER BLD 33.650 35.650 1.5 1.5 2.0 6.110 3.160
I just quit framing to start my own spec home building bus. (Yeah,I know, a hell of a time to do it). I had plenty of experience and I always showed up on time, had all my own tools, never smoked dope in the biffy and I made 17/hour.
Since I've been on my own, I've been able to get $35/hour. I do have my own insurance and license. The guy I've been working for usually charges $50 an hour. He has his license but no insurance.
-full time carpenter, full time coach, full time dad
damn my knees hurt
BTW.
Carver County MN. - most affluent county in MN- just west of Minneapolis