Hello, I’m new to this . Here is a little about what I do out here in sunny so. Calif… I work for a small company that builds large custom spanish colonial homes near San Diego. The lead carpenters in our 15 year old company are involved in many of the phases of construction in these projects which typically are multi. mil. $ properties. We layout ,form , frame and finish down to the hardware these monsters. All the rough and install carpentry including doors and windows is in house… So my ? is ( and i don’t see it mentioned here often so maybe it’s not cool to ask) … what do you think is a fair hourly wage for this type of work ? There are only about 5 of us at this level out of about 50 payroll employees…. We are curious ?
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Pelon,
I think you and I are in the same boat.
I work for a small high end remodeler.
I have done everything from digging and pouring footers right up through fine finish work.
It is much easier for me to lis the few things I do not do on a regular basis.
I don't run Heavy excavating equipment (but it would be fun)
I don't form concrete.
I don't do "finish" masonry.
I don't major plumbing. (PVC yes, soldering copper no)
I don't sand or finish wood floors.
I don't do tile (more by choice than lack of ability)
I don't paint or stain (unless the customer wants it to take forever and look like ####)
Everything else I do and do well.
I get 18$ an hour and 200$ a mo. tool/truck allowance.
6 paid holidays and 2 weeks paid vacay.
Thats it no bennies except maybe not having to work weekends or being able to take any time I need for family (unpaid of course).
I am in Elmira NY ( upstate, southern fingerlakes region)
Not a particularly prosperous place now that Corning Inc. has hit the skids.
We stay busy because we do quality work at a reasonable price.
I feel I am under paid, boss says I get a fair market wage but I know he will have a hard time replacing me if I were to leave.
Well theres my story...
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
T......
Move to Long Island........You might do better as a prison guard up at Elmira,,,,I was almost sent there when I was a kid for weed ,,lol.....Actually the pay doesnt sound that bad to me.
Thing is....why not work for yourself at this point???????
Gotta start sometime.
BE well bro
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Its not just corning inc mr T.toshiba's furloughing or laying off,verizion and cwa are fighting tooth and nail,howells cant work them selves out of a cardboard box,bethany just laid off just laid off 18,heck i just got laid off from a painting contractor whos been well respected in this area for over 20 years because he cant affored to keep anybody.as for you being under paid i think in this area we all are.I'm sure you have more experience than i do but i'll be lucky to get 8$ an hour working here and i do have 5 years experience behind me.and to top it off the weather has'nt been real good to us lately.any way nice to know i'm not the only one form this dead end town who hangs out on breaktime.
It all depends. In OC for example my electrician pal gets about 18-20 bucks a hour from his company. But if its a prevailing wage job he can earn up to 32 bucks a hour.
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
T, thanks for your reply. What part of the country do you work in ? I like the tool& truck allowance.I've never heard of that out here. Although I "own" my home, the rents here in San Diego are a crime. $700/month will get you an average 1 bdrm. apt. in a lousy part of town where if you leave a roll of masking tape in the back of your truck it will be gone in the am. I'm not crying about my wage. Just curious as to what other people doing similar work in my area are getting paid.
pelon to T, sorry ... you did say where you are located. i didn't catch it in my haste to reply. It sounds like you have a pretty good thing going though. We don't get vacation pay or any types of benny's what so ever. A company bbque and a turkey and a t-shirt at Xmas are about it . I'm in my late 40's so thats part of it. What are costs of living in your area ? Pelon
Here we go with "Fair" again. Its not about fair its about worth.
Your "worth" to an individual is whatever they are willing to pay you. Your "worth" to someone else may be more or less depending. Your worth also rises and lowers as does the market.
The value of your worth is also affected by availability of an employer to replace you.
It sounds like a mutiny is brewing on your job site. This is a bad idea. As a group you may be able to strong arm your employer. Let me guess the outcome of that maneuver, you will get what you want as a compromise and your employer will be setting himself up to replace you as soon as possible.
Keep yourself abreast of what the other 4 men are doing, but stay away from that action. You must go it alone.
Your best bet, let your employer know that you are interested in furthering your career within his organization. Ask him what your options are (Superintendent, General Superintendent, Project Management) whatever it is that you may want. Ask him if he will consider you for these positions and if the opportunity arises, let you fill in to get your feet wet. Work with the man, not against him.
A general rule, money comes with a lot of responsibility and a lot of hours that you may not get paid for.
Not trying to be arrogant, if you think your the man, then prove it. Go out and get your own contracts. Until then, thank the man for allowing you to provide for your family.
Let us know what happens.
WAHD
Your labour has "worth", you do not. An employer pays to get a job done and each position has a fairly defined value (although that value may vary greatly from location to location). An employer may have to pay rentention premiums for productivity or quality in some locations, or may have a rewards system because they deem it fair; however, if either of these are above best practises in your location, treat them as a gift..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
why don't you read the discussion in the JLC lead carpenter forum. Someone, from s.f. calif., his paying his help 50 bucks an hour. I had to read it twice myself. Most of that is probably due to the high cost of living there.
Hello Panama, what is this JLC forum... ?
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/3ef3c5d2001c895a271a401e1d290644/Catalog/1138?read=728
panama, thanks for the info. i'de seen this mag somewhere but had forgotten about it. i subscribed. What do you think of it ?
It depends on what you mean by lead carpenter. What the responsibilities are.
1/3 of what the company charges for you work. That is for a good carpenter should get.
2/5 to 1/2 of what the company charges for your work. (that is unless company changes more for your work rest of the people you supervise) . Depending on what part of the management you are. If all you do is check on the work of others and make sure it is being built to plans and to code. Or if you are dealing with the customer change orders and schedule subs and making sure they are doing what the contract calls for. Depends on how many people you are in charge of. (it sounds like you are running a 10 man crew). If you are the reason for some of referrals to your company.
Fredsmart, How the hell would i know what my company marks up my wage to the client ? I only supervise the helpers they assign to me for a partcular task. I do, sometimes get the company referrals. i do constantly point out problems with code or cost to the super. we work often without drawings so the design is up to the carpenter.
Pelon,
The GC I work for tells me exactly what he charges for my labor.
I get 2/3's.
Don't know if that's standard for my level but I bring something to the table this GC didn't have before so it's well worth it for him to do so. I occationaly get 90% on a job that he doesn't want but will "sub out" to me.
Unfortunatly in a competitve market like So. Cal. -where I am as well- there is usually someone willing to do it for less.
You gotta make sure you do it better.
N
So you get 2/3's, where do you think the other 1/3 goes?
I pay $7. an hour per carpenter to workmans compensation insurance alone, and I have never made a claim. And then there is general liability insurance and unemployment insurance and health insurance. And then there is the rest of the overhead.
WAHDView Image
"So you get 2/3's, where do you think the other 1/3 goes?"
Well yea,
I know exactly where it goes. This GC is lucky if he makes a dime off my efforts. But he benefits by having an in-house carpenter so he schedule down to the hour not the week. For instance this week we're doing a kitchen bath remodel. I did the baths and was off to my own business. Then it's discovered the cabinet guy installed the cabinets wrong. He can call up the cabinet installer and wait a week-throw all his other jobs off. Or pay me and it's done before noon and before he has a chance to stress about it.
So we're both in a win-win situation. MY value is great to this GC and my wages are based upon this value. Not what the other guy is getting or any other imaginary baseline. That's was my point in chiming in as wages can vary from $12-$25 for similarly competent work in a competitive market. From what I've seen aroud here.
Many/most outfits are set-up to profit by the carpenters labor. Not a bad thing but to be considered when woindering why you don't make more.
N
Your point is well taken.
To raise the carpenters rates the general must raise his rates to the client. Projects can be won or lost on a small margin. Its a balancing act and not an easy one.
Don't get me wrong, I wish I could pay everyone more. I am just trying to defeat the thought of rich general contractor on the backs of the poor carpenter. Generals typically do make more but they earn it just the same.
WAHD
View Image
Probably a little off topic so I'll ask forgiveness in advance.
I am a GC on the coast of Georgia. I have no employees. I have a two carpentry subs, a finisher, and a designer/carpenter sub that all get paid by the hour. I mark up their labor by an average of 10 - 15%. For that amount I carry general liability, answer the clients questions, make sure materials are at the jobsites on time, etc..........
When I was an hourly employee, the GC's all doubled my hourly rate for billing, as well as marked up materials by 67%. I never really thought it was "fair" to the customer, as they could have had nicer fixtures, trim or finishes for what they ended up putting in the GC's pocket off of our labor.
Now that I look back on it I'm not sure the GC was making enough. I am getting ready to hand the end of our current remodel off to my designer/carpenter and devote myself to my cabinet shop.
We'll see how it goes.TCW Specialists in Custom Remodeling.
EARTH FIRST! We'll log the other planets later.
Hi WAHD, thanks for your input. As i said before i don't have any idea of what my boss charges the client for my labor. i started this disscussion mainly to find out what other experienced carpenters get paid hourly and in benifits. We pay for our own health insure. but get a group rate... have no time off or sick pay ... no end of year bonus and no allowances of any kind. The super doesn't even like to pay for blades or bits etc. I at least get my passlode ammo. how does this compare to what you provide your top guys who have been there a number of years ?
after 13 years with el diablo(the boss), the co. pays for ALL power tools, every bit, blade, gas cartridge, battery, battery tool, disposable you-name-it.
It's only fair, after wearing out the first set. What's a carpenter suppose to do?, spend 5 grand every 4-5-6 years?
for instance, I just bought a sawzall, to replace one that took on s___ on me, charged it on the co. mastercard. El diablo even offered to buy another water saw when he found out I'd be needing one for a personal project.
These tools are company tools if purchased by the co.
Edited 6/23/2003 11:31:41 AM ET by panama red
I don't understand your math. You get 2/3 of what a contractor charges for your labor.
Virtually every state has a mechanics' and materialman's lien law that reads something like this: 'Every person (person meaning an individual, partnership, corporation or otherwise) shall have a lien for labor or materials furnished, whether furnished at the instance of the property owner or his agent. Further that every contractor or subcontractor is the agent of the property owner and the property owner shall be liable for the acts of his agent.'
There is nothing in language of this kind stating that the contractor charges for the labor of the mechanic or the materials of the materialman.
If the labor is furnished at the instance of the owner (the owner contracts directly with the mechanics), the lien value is 100 % of the contract value. If the labor is furnished at the instance of a contractor, the lien value to the mechanic is still the amount charged for labor.
If a state allows contractors to have liens, their lien value is the total amount expressed in their contract.
If the owner employs no contractors, the lien total is the sum of all labor contracts and material contracts.
If the law allows contractors to have liens, the lien value would be the sum of all labor contracts plus all material contracts plus contractor contracts.
Since contractors are by definition agents, virtually every state has a separate law that makes it illegal for any person entrusted with the employment of workmen for his principal to demand or receive a fee, commission or gratuity as a kickback for such employment. States that have contractor licensing incorporate this into their licensing laws. Generally it is required that once the person submits his labor bill and the owner gives the money to the contractor to pay the mechanic for such labor, the contractor shall not keep any of it.
Hmm...
You sound more lawyer than GC, but excuse me if I have you pegged wrong.
I've seen estimating books and most tasks are figured upon these type numbers and wages. Jobs are bid with these in mind. If a GC can find someone who will do it faster and for less they are not obliged to refund the client or give the employee the extra money. Are they? How would complications be dealt with? Employee scew ups? Of course these are all figured in the bid.
Of all the jobs I've been on I have no knowledge of the GC sitting down with the client and going over the man hours and wages of each employee. Does this happen? Would the client then be just as liable for labor over runs? What about the contract which states "$10,000"? What about that door that took 10 hours to set but the other that took 2?
I'm no expert. I've just gotten back into the field more on a full time basis and am the "ace in the hole" for a tiling contractor. He figures the days I'd have to complete something, bills the client in the contract and pays me a daily wage. If I can do a 3 day job in one-Great! He profits. If it takes me 5 days he loses. Or more to the point doesn't profit. My wages aren't figured with profit in mind just taxes, which are about 1/3 in our situation.
It's all about value. I stepped in this weekend and took 100% of a kitchen job for only half the job. The GC will tile the counters for free. But it freed him up to do other tasks and the GC will profit in the end.
I'm activley pursuing my contractors lisence so this will be changing.
N
Edited 6/23/2003 8:51:09 PM ET by notrix
Panama red hit it on the head. NoCalif pays ALOT better. It is a market thing down here. I know many people up there make $50-$70perhr and they are skilled workers. I have been working on the coast for 20 years and some of the BEST finish carpenters make $30-40perhr. Most other guys in construction made $10-$18 per hour. Most cabinet shops don't even pay $15perhr and with no benefits,holidays, vacations. For some reason, the So Calif region doesn't appreciate cabinet makers, framers, or carpenters. But they have no problem paying an eletrician or plumber $65.00 perhr. Don't get me wrong, I think all trades should be making better wages. It's hard to support a family on lower wages and still be available to buy a home where the average price in the SoCal is probably over $250,000-$300,000. I feel it is low wage immigrant employees have really effected wage conditions. For a short period of time, about 8 yrs ago, I worked for a European cabinet shop in Chino(Euro Design). They paid almost every worker in the plant minimum wage or just above that. One time a worker wanted $0.25 hr raise and the owner said "no". I ran the installation supervision for the San Diego territory. His reply was that there was someone out there who would work for less!
I do agree No Cal is more expensive, but So Cal is getting up there too.
My recommendation is to start talking to other employers. Maybe a job change is in your future. Sometimes that is the only way. I finally got my contractors license 16 years ago when I realized I had maxxed out my earning potential at $15.00 an hour. Much hasn't changed for employees in 16 years.
And yes, I do know that it cost more for employees on the employers' end. Been there, done that
I always like to say it is best to get paid the most that the market will bear! Its up to you to get that wage! If you dont go for it you will never get it $$$$$$(thats six figures).
Migraine, thanks for your input. you are right about talking to other employers. But it's alot easier talking online. i don't really want to get into the immigrant labor thing but we( the lead carpenters) do see what's going on here in so. Cal. The company makes a good profit from the 30 or so cheap labourers we have. Also i hear what you are saying about carpenters getting the shorter end of the stick vs. the other trades. What kind of typical benifits do you hear about be given to top carpenters in my kind of company ?