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I’m just wondering what kind of help y’all have/can find in the $15/hr range? Decided to research wage rates in other parts of the country (I’m northern midwest) as a comparison. Is 15 bucks laborer pay, assistant, apprentice, journeyman, etc. What is expected of someone at about this rate? Or who expects to get paid this much?
Not sure why I picked 15 bucks/hr, but thanks in advance for any input.
Later
Replies
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LJ, it really depends upon the caliber of the person you're looking for. My contention has always been to hire the best available. Actually, I learned that the first 3-5 years in business. In both the short and the end run, they are the least expensive to the company.
I have one employee here in Naples, FL. When I hired him, I told him I really wanted an $18 caliber person. We do drywall repair, texturing repairs, small stucco repairs, minor framing and trim work, ceramic tile, painting, etc., the usual stuff you get into doing small remodels and repairs. He was a little short in 2-3 areas trade wise, but I hired him anyway - character comes first, and I figured I could teach him those specific things he needed to learn. Started him at $16. He learned quickly and within 3 months he was receiving that $18. I also gave him 6 holidays, 1 week vacation, complete medical and a truck allowance.
He's been with me for one year and while he has one or two personality quirks, I've learned to work around them or address them in other ways - nothing that effects his workmanship. All ways on time or earlier, neat working habits, good idea man. Three months ago, when I bought a new truck, I gave him my old one to use.
Recently I've change my attitude about our industry even further. Here's what I mean by that. His wife works for a bank, so they get off more holidays than most. Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Day, etc, as do many local and state governments. I said to myself "What are we, chopped liver?" And we don't work in cushy air conditioned offices. So, I adjusted and increased my labor cost burden, and we now also take off those holidays also.
Since He's a good man, instead of giving him perodic bonuses I buy him tools now and then and other perks. For example, I just bought him a Dremel tool for $80. Now and then, we'l knock off at 2-3 PM due to working outside during our brutal summers, and I pay him for the whole day. That too is included in my labor adjusted numbers. Also give him 3 sick days a year paid.
He's 50 years old. Dave does kayaking and sailing, so this last July 4th, I paid him for both Monday and Tuesday and he went on a kayaking trip. Those perks are more important to him than getting an extra fifty cents or a buck an hour more. So, when you make an offer, consider what's important to the candidate.
His wife recently give him a surprise 50th birthday party. That Monday he related to me he told his friends that things don't get much better than he has: I great job. A great boss. Great friends, and a terrific wife. I was happy for both him and myself, and glad he said what he said.
As opposed to the "them" and "us" mentality, I prefer a "we" relationship. It's good for both of us, and our clients.
*SonnyWhy do you pay for labor if you're a contractor? Under Florida's contractor statutes, the contractor is required to turn over to the persons who perform the labor all the moneys that the property owner is paying for labor. How can you have a labor burden on an expense of the property owner?
*Oh Boy!
*Robert; I have never seen a dead horse flogged so hard. I don't know if you are or are not right on a technicality, but you are the only person I have ever heard of operating with your definition of a contractor.
*Robert, I do it for three reasons. 1. My employee incurs no operating expenses indicative of running a business, regardless of it's type. When he does do the above, I will gladly give it to him.2. My name, not my employee, nor my client, is on my "contractors" license, as deemed mandatory by the state of Florida. As such, I alone am subject to disciplinary and/or legal action should I not operate or "perform" as my license dictates. The relevance of Supreme Court decisions that may negate any current Florida laws is a moot point, since Florida, not the Supreme Court, may put me in jail, if I do not operate with the state of Florida's legalities. So, the hand that holds the stick is Florida, not the Supreme Court and the Federal Justice system.3. Finally, occasionally, I like to break a law just for the hell of it. The one you pose is just one of those such laws. In fact, it just tickles me to think I've gotten away with it for 30 years so far.You see, while your many statements may very well be 110% correct, unlike many who live in a fantasy world, I prefer to live in the real world. I also prefer to choose battles in which I have at least a small chance of winning, but more importantly, where the "treasure" is worth the battle(s). Please, do not mention "freedom" as the treasure, or an expanded sense of freedom. I'm thrilled with the freedoms I enjoy given those minor restrictions, (some I don't agree with as being fair, relevant or sane) that I must endure to enjoy the freedoms I do. Adrian, the horse has been so flogged it's now dead and has been buried. Robert found a new one to continue on with his "band wagon." And I can live with band wagons since I have a few myself, as long as they are not continually rolled over me. I do not, however, feel it's appropirate for Robert to inject his opinion of this issue into every subsequent thread that may appear that allows him the opoortunity to do so. Doing so, only closes otherwise at least partially open minds.I think that was politely stated. Now, knock it off Robert !!! OK, so I transgressed a little.
*Little Joe,In Texas, $15 an hour will get you a good dependable carpenter. He probably will not have all the tools he needs, and he may be lacking in some areas of cabinetry, but he will be a good carpenter with enough experience not to have to be held by the hand.From there is goes up. A top notch man who can do his work right, and quickly, can make about $20 as an employee. Speed is the thing that makes him valuable. You can find carpenters all day long who can do beautiful work, but a man who does it quickly will draw higher pay.Ed. Williams
*Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else that Sonny has too much time on his hands. For every line written by someone else, Sonny writes 10. I've stopped reading most threads cuz I see a Sonny post running from the top of my screen to the bottom.Brevity is the soul of wit?SHG
*SHG, I agree. In the above case, and this one, I was/am replying to comments directed to me.Brief enough?
*Sonny's done well enough with the business operation that he has designed that it pretty much runs on auto-pilot giving him a lot of time to follow his bliss and just talk about the business he knows and loves. That’s his right and it was still a free country the last time I looked. It should be pretty obvious that I don’t necessarily agree with what Sonny posts or why he’s posting it. But at least he's saying something and offering it for consideration or rebuttal. Most of the people here just have a lot of short undeveloped incomplete "thought bytes" to offer or don’t want to take on any kind of thinking and vision more taxing and complex than what’s size nail to choose for putting on sheathing. If he wants to talk and talk I support him in that right and make my choice to argue with him when I think he is wrong. At least by saying SOMETHING he forces me to reconsider my own opinions, systems, and methods. By the way around here NY and it northern suburbs $15 per hour barely gets you a better than average helper or hard working apprentice. I think journeymen around here start around 18 and I know of a few who are working at $25 to $30 but I think it all depends on the skill set that a particular business requires. I don't like to use the word speed; I think efficiency is a much better word and while it is very important attribute I find that being "better" is the most important attribute in my market and will earn you the highest rate.
*$15 an hour is good money here for a good residential journeyman carp (union of course is double). Most guys are working for a whole lot less, no benefits at all, provide your own tools and truck. In cabinetmaking, I think $16 an hour is still the official journeyman rate in Ontario, but when I left five years ago it was really the same old ten years exp./$10 an hour, bit more if you were good. Foremen and owners might make 14-16. You guys in the states make a lot more money. Recently, with the boom times, I've heard some NY shops are paying 75$ an hour plus benefits to keep good men.
*NY cabinet shops? I didn't even think there was such a thing? Well there are some but the overhead costs alone associated with doing business in NYC especially Manhattan are ridiculous. Most of the General Contractors I know of that do well in NY import their cabinetry and millwork from other areas of the country (and Canada) where the overhead costs are a bare fraction of what they are in NYC. I’m in Westchester north of the city and even here many General Contractors do the same thing since what shops there are here are generally very expensive . I think the $75 you've heard Adrian may be a little exaggerated for Manhattan but not by much. Of course the high labor rate is reflective of two things; the extremely high cost of living and the severe shortage of skilled labor in the area.
*You are sincerely missing the point, Jeraldo. Sonny gets it, because I've told him this before. This isn't the ivory tower, and getting too serious (not to mention long winded) just gets boring. A good idea is still a good idea even when it's conveyed in ten words or less. Get the idea now.And as far as it still being America and Sonny's having a right to post what he wants, are you 3 years old? Everybody here can do what they want, and the rest can tell 'em to stick it where the sun don't shine. Now that's America.SHG
*Jerrald; you're right. The number I had in my head, which I've seen several times in trade mags and on pro cabinetmaking boards, was 75K a year plus benefits (more like $37 an hour plus benefits). Sorry for the confusion.
*I’m not missing the point at all Scottie boy (by the way the name is Jerrald not Jeraldo) but what I see here is a lot of long timers on this site getting upset that the old "neighborhood" is changing. Kind of like what happens when a black family moves in to a white neighborhood and all of a sudden there is all that Rap music being played and the old timers don’t like it. Get over it and the sooner you do get over it we all might be able to get down to some constructive dialog. You have anything to contribute to Little Joes questions regarding wages? If not then you’re just wasting bandwidth here. You could have just as easily told Sonny that you thought he was talking too much in an e-mail ( which I have certainly a lot more times than you have). I’ve been reading your posts for a long time now SHG and have recognized them as being succinct, knowledgeable and generally very informative up until now. What’s with the name calling now? Just how old do you have to be to be a NY Attorney?
*You know, this is getting rediculous. Unless these forums are strictly for cutesie pie one or two liners or short takes. I thought they were for a dialogue done in a manner that offered something with substance. Our industry problems and questions, like other industries, are not discussed and answered in a few simple sentences. Any discussions I've had in face to face meetings operate in the same context - explanation of one's contentions. Most of the time that cannot be done using brevity. This is not a newsletter where many issues are covered within the constraints of 2-4 pages. Little Joe's question is an example. Most of us who have had employees know that the hourly wage is not the sole determinant of what makes a happy employee, and I addressed that in my post, offering my own employee as an example.Often, just telling a trainee to set his circular saw guard for just a fraction deeper than the thickness of what he is cutting does not suffice, because we know what the next question is going to be. WHY? Why not answer both in one statement? Because we must be concerned of being accused of posting too many words?If anything is to be learned or debated, 1-2 short paragraphs doesn't cut it. If they did, all face to face discussons would be done in 1 minute, books would be 5 pages, magazines articles would be 2 paragraphs, round tables at trade shows would restrict comments to 30 seconds per member, and their seminars would end after 10 minutes. Also, like books and articles, the reader has the option not to read it, as you skip my posts. I really don't understand how holding down the "Page Down" or arrow key is viewed as such a tramatic episode.This is the "Business" room, not the "Trivia" room.So SHG, please tell me. If the purpose of this forum is to maintain a dialogue of issues important to each of us, or is it suppose to be like sitting in a loud bar and talking crap talk. Convinced of the latter, I'll keep my key board activity to a minimum and email more expanded explanations directly to whomever made the original post/question. Then only one person, and only one will benefit from any experience I may have to offer. Note I stated "may" since it's to be interpreted by the email reciepient. Granted, I may ramble sometimes. But then again, if I were a professional writer, I wouldn't be a remodeler. Tolerance is a virtue. Learn it as many adults have, and miners do by sifting thru the soil to acquire the sparse nuggets of gold. Back in Chicago as retail manager I received some of the best advice I ever heard. It was from my store manager while I was still an assistant manager. He said: "Learn from everyone you talk to. Even those you dislike have wisdom and/or knowledge you can learn from." If found he was right - and I have.
*I started out reading this with something to say on the subject, but got so bored along the way that it became more germane. People have discussions all the time, about important stuff and trivial stuff. And most us hope not to bore the crap out of whoever we're talking to. We used to discuss serious things and still have fun, clearly a foreign concept here. But you know what? You guys are right. Notice that the majority of new subjects are by Sonny? Notice who's not posting anymore? So you guys have bored the rest of us out of the neighborhood, and now it's all yours and you write all you want cuz nobody's reading. AdiosSHG
*SHG, I'm sorry most of we RO expatriates are such bad guests. Are own site is so screwed up, it's technically impossible to say anything meaningful. I can understand your attachment to your site and its long time participants. We feel the same way about our own peers. You obviously feel invaded but your leaving or refusing to participate is not the answer. This on-line community can only work if it serves all of us regardless of our needs and background. If you feel you have been slighted, stand up and fight for your beliefs. We don't want to offend you. We want to know where you're coming from, and understand that. But please don't close your mind to understanding us as well.
*Peter, I don't feel slightest. I'm just bored. If it's no fun to be here, then here isn't the place to be. Doesn't mean I won't post when I have something to say, but it does mean that I prefer not being bored to being bored. It doesn't even mean that I disagree with Sonny, as I usually do agree with what he says. It's just turned this place into a snooze. Nothing more.SHG
*SHG...We need the insulation wars back which should happen on schedule this Fall like it has the last few years...If not, I may have to take over the job from Freddy as I to(o) need a break from boredom on the boards....It does help with breaking one's addiction to being online well though!!!near the stream, going out to mow between the nonstop rainstorms,aj
*A.J.I Too have been bored with the Board, I think You might want to have a Keg Party again. On the Soft tail in the Black Hills
*When is the big hog event?near the stream remembering the old days, long hair...hair...bikesaj
*Here in Western Washington there are ads in the classifieds every day for carpenters starting 22-24.00/hr, many with signing bonuses (sp?) of 500 or 1000.00. A buddy of mine is a union carpenter and he tells me they are actually bidding on guys in the Seattle area, offering 1.50 or 2.00 an hour over scale (26.00/hr or something). It's all supply and demand. And it changes from season to season, location to location. I don't think I could hire anyone for 15.00/hr that could lay out a building, much less stick frame a roof or cut a set of stairs.
*I think you are right on in your observation there, Jim. I was looking through the want ads today since I'm getting set to run one of my own and I was thinking just what to I have to offer nowadays to get them even to just respond to the ad. Signing bonuses! Pretty soon it'll have to be stock options.
*A.J. The Party Starts in Deadwood on to Spearfish Then to Sturgis South Dakota, 350,000 Bikers its the Event of the Year!!!
*kids...ya gotta tell em seven times and ya gotta ask em seven times....b when....near the stream needin help with my calendar,aj
*Hey Tex,Seems like your neck of the woods is getting a lot more than mine. Could be the carpenter shortage that is hurting the entire country. More power to you. I'd like to see carpenters wages at $30 someday.Carpenters in large cities like NY and LA make more because of the cost of living. But in the end, they have about the same amount to use as the rest of us.Oh well,Ed.
*Hey Ed. - yeah, wages have been pretty high here since I came out here in '77. Low cost of living, high wages, climate you can work in year 'round, carpenter heaven. Can't believe the humidity in the East. I was just there for a couple days and my shirt was soaked with sweat by 8am. I know it gets plenty hot down there where you're at too man. I don't think I could ever get used to that glare either. Tough conditions, for sure.
*YOur sounding a bit like a spoiled brat SHGL! I'm actually surprised.YOu have the ultimate editing power. Use it.Sonny obviously likes dicussing something he knows about. It might be boring to you, but it probably is not boring to him. I'm sure everyone decides whether it's boring to themselves and either continues reading of glosses over it. I'm amazed at the number of posts similar to yours in all areas of the net. In every discussion forum, there is always someone telling someone to stop posting. Telling someone to stop posting is the ultimate boring post and the ultimate waste of bandwith.My vote is to let Sonny post, as long as he wants, and I'll decide whether the posts are too long or boring for me to read. blue
*Hey Tex,Sounds like a great place. You better keep your mouth shut about it, or you'll have a carpenter rush. Keep your head low if that happens.I bet I've lost five pounds in the last 6 weeks of high heat and humidity here in Dallas. It's real bad, but you know the rest of the year is great. We only get about 3 months of hot weather. Winter time is Texas has no snow, a little ice, and the temp hardly ever goes below freezing. Spring and Fall are fantastic. The three months of heat are worth waitng for the other nine.Ed. ........near the A/C
*Okay.
*> Telling someone to stop posting is the ultimate boring post and the ultimate waste of bandwith.Very well put, blue. Thanks.Rich Beckman
*Stock options?!? Tell me what local construction company's stock would be worth owning? One man ops, family run ops, etc. The company is worth what the boss/owner says it is worth and one heart attack, or router insert failure without good luck, and your stock is worthless.Now, stock options in one of the majors; that is something worth considering. What do you bid?
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I'm just wondering what kind of help y'all have/can find in the $15/hr range? Decided to research wage rates in other parts of the country (I'm northern midwest) as a comparison. Is 15 bucks laborer pay, assistant, apprentice, journeyman, etc. What is expected of someone at about this rate? Or who expects to get paid this much?
Not sure why I picked 15 bucks/hr, but thanks in advance for any input.
Later