Replies

1. 
   BobKovacs | Mar 05, 2003 02:32pm | #1

   I'd say the $$ sound light for NYC, especially for the type of work they produce and expect.  Even here in central NJ, there are plenty of carpenters (or so-called carpenters) making that kind of wage.

    But, it depends on what you're used to, what you need to live, etc.  If you've never worked in NYC before, bear in mind you're about to incur a pile of expenses, including tolls, parking ($25-40/day), parking tickets, higher prices for food/gas/etc.  Not to mention adding time to your commute compared to working in the suburbs.

   As far as a salary range for running work, it depends on the volume of work you'll be running (1 job at a time or 10...), and what level of responsibility they're going to give you.  I know PMs/supers who are making $60k per year, and I know some who are making $150K per year.  It all depends on the company.

   Best of luck,

   Bob

2. 
   painter02645 | Mar 05, 2003 02:49pm | #2

   Live on Cape Cod and work on Nantucket.Our wages here are often compared to NYC because we do a lot of the same work for the same type of people(rich and famous) we build thier 10,000 foot summer homes.There are the same cost of living problems here also,ultra high rents or ultra high commuting charges ($25-45) a day for the ferry if you choose that way to go,and the infamous $10 lunch sandwich.We factor all that in and the result is $30-45 carpenters 65 -75 plumbers 55-65 electricians etc so the bottom line is can you afford to work for 30 an hour and are you happy at what you do and where you do it

3. 
   jackstraw9 | Mar 05, 2003 03:26pm | #3

   I f your medical is included and is roughly 700 a month that's 4 dollars more an hour. Irregardless, 30 an hour for high end millwork and foreman work is a ripoff in NYC. The level of responsibility that they expect you to carry, the assurance of quality that you will guarentee, and the amount of training you have demand more money. What other skilled professional ,with 24 years experience !!!!!, get's 30 an hour. Nurses are getting 30 right out of college,no experience. If you were a run of the mill carpenter that number would be right but not for the kind of millwork installation and the location your in. NYC is the $ center of the US and the clientelle expect that kind of work, you can be sure that the company you are applying to is billing you out at 75 or 80 dollars an hour, they pretty much have to match what the unoin would billl you out as. Sorry , but I hate it when I see us carpenters get stepped on, there is absolutely no reason why we should be one of the lowest paid trades out there.

4. 
   Piffin | Mar 05, 2003 09:59pm | #4

   For the adress and the type of work, I'd say that is pretty close to bottom of the barrel for them. It is a starting wage in that line of work and location. That is how you describe the position. there is the hop[e of more with the advance to foreman.

   Before making the move, i would want to know two things - What is the high end of their wage scale in shop is one of them. You can measure how much you can be making within a year. You should not expect that there will be any slowdown in those customers spending money. Real estate is viewed by them as a safe investment compared to Wall street right now.

   The second thing you need to measure ahead of time is your own tolerance for this kind of person. They can be flakey and demanding and get away with it because they think they own you. Some of them are very nice - others are dangerous to be around. in between are all the others who think they know what they want, change their minds three times, and want it all finished yesterday - without making any dust.

   I know two excellent men doing this kind of high quality work. One who quit any in house stuff to just build stairs in his shop and deliver them for the onsite crew to install so he wouldn't have top be around the tensions. The other one went out and got on a framing crew for his sanity. No-one is critical of his work there. In the high end, they demand not just high end - they want perfection and more - and they are trying to look over his shoulder and tell him how. He couldn't take it anymore and got burnt out. In commercial, I'm betting that you rarely see the customer and deal with a super or a professionall such as an archy. That is easier than direct customer contact.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   fredsmart48 | Mar 06, 2003 01:50am | #5

   wages should be about  1/3 + benefits of what the company charges for your labor.

   or

   wages should be about 3/8 of what the company charges for your labor if NO benefits.

   management of job 1/2 + benefits of what the company charges for your labor

   or

   3/4 of what the company charges for your labor with NO benefits.   That is at say after 6 months of employment with the company. 

1. 
   jonblakemore | Mar 07, 2003 06:36am | #12

   Out of curiousity, what does the rate that the employer charges for you have to do with fair pay?  I have worked for people who have no business sense whatsoever.  I make 75% of what they charged for me, with no benefits.  Was I screwing him?  I don't think so.  He wasn't charging enough, but that doesn't affect the fact that I'm getting a reasonable amount.  On the contrary, if I worked for a marketing genius, who charged his guys out at $300/hr, should I expect $225 if I was management wiht no bennies?  Of course my example is ludicrous, but I don't believe your percentage has any bearing.  What one should concentrate on is if the pay is what you're worth in the market.

   Jon Blakemore

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Mar 07, 2003 06:58am | #13

   Jon I got confused with the logic reading Fredsmarts rule of thumb calculations.

   The problem with all the rule of thumb stuff you hear is that it's very similar

   to old wives tales and has no real basis in current or specific reality. Talking

   with all sorts of contractors over these past few years about pricing, estimating,

   and markup you wouldn't believe some of what I heard. I should have been making

   lists.

   The true answer regarding: "what does the rate

   that the employer charges for you have to do with fair pay?" is

   nothing (period). It has absolutely nothing at all to do with fair pay. Your

   comment "What one should concentrate on is if

   the pay is what you're worth in the market. " is pretty much

   an on target analysis only I would use the phrase "compensation package" rather

   than just pay (but I clearly understood just what you meant).

    

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   "Function is based

   on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

6. 
   DougU | Mar 06, 2003 03:29am | #6

   BUIC

   I just left a job exactly as you describe, nothing but high end homes and fine finish work, (I'm moving to Texas at the end of this month), here in Iowa I was making a little short of $20 per hr. and real good benefits, that's about all that I could expect to make here but I cant imagine that to live the same life in NYC I would only need to make another $10 per hr.

   I see others talking about the parking and the cost to eat and all that, man I only need about $10 a day to do all that stuff, And that's getting the super size at BK.

   My house payment is well under $1000 a month  and that's a fairly good home, don't think your going to find much for that in the city.

   Sounds low to me but what do I know?

   Doug

   PS. My employer charges approx. $47 an hr for us and some think thats way high in this area. I guess all things are relative!

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/5/2003 7:31:26 PM ET by Doug@es

7. 
   JerraldHayes | Mar 06, 2003 04:15am | #7

   Okay my $.03. That "$30. per plus medical to start

   as a finish carpenter in the field." sounds like it right in

   the middle, the mean, so to speak. Sounds like what I would generally risk

   paying a journeyman. I'm a Westchester based outfit that sometimes does work

   in NYC I could easily fit the profile of the company you are describing.

   When I am looking

   at "real" carpenters I think from a low $25 to a high of $35. (FYI

   any carpenter that I would pay wage of $30 per hour costs me $47.15 and would

   have to bill

   out at

   a minimum of $71.95

   per

   hour)

   Where a prospective employee would fall within that wage range I mentioned

   depends on a whole lot things and to tell you the truth years of experience

   don't necessarily mean that much. I'm not saying this is your case at all but

   I been burned by plenty of carpenters with 25 years of experience that really

   translated into 5 years of experience repeated 5 times. Many times the "years

   of experience" quotient is not all it's cracked up to be at all.

   "So, my question is, do you think I'm selling

   myself short for starters at $30". To tell you the truth I don't

   have enough information to give you an answer on that. "...and

   if they want me to run work, what's an appropriate salary?" That's

   a whole other subject area too and a very different skill set that what is

   required of a artisan carpenter.

   Now looking at what some of the other people here have said where Bob says "But,

   it depends on what you're used to, what you need to live, etc.  If you've

   never worked in NYC before, bear in mind you're about to incur a pile of

   expenses, including tolls, parking ($25-40/day), parking tickets, higher

   prices for food/gas/etc.  Not to mention adding time to your commute

   compared to working in the suburbs." That's good advice to heed.

   If this outfit expects you to pay for that additional expense of working

   in NYC that would make me say forget it it not worth it. But most real professional

   outfits compensate their employees for those kind of expenses. And when he

   says "I know PMs/supers who are making $60k per

   year, and I know some who are making $150K per year.  It all depends

   on the company." I would only add It all depends on the company and

   the individual. (Sounds like Bob Kovacs talking, do I happen to have

   my Bobs correctly identified?) That range that he talking about is what I

   meant by that's "a whole other subject area too".

   When Jack Straw says "Irregardless, 30 an hour

   for high end millwork and foreman work is a ripoff in NYC. " yeah

   it is if you really are that good and have the skills to be a real foreman

   but ya know what there are tons of really great artisan tradespeople out

   there that do great quality carpentry who can barely manage themselves let

   alone another person or even a project. I don't know if you or Jack Straw

   ever saw the the discussion here I started last summer regarding my Job

   Interview Questions but you guys might like to read them and the comments

   I got. You'll notice that the question were geared toward learning something

   else other than the applicants understanding of carpentry.

   I like how Piffen said "Before making the move,

   i would want to know two things - What is the high end of their wage scale

   in shop is one of them." but that brings to mind something that

   might confuse the issue."their wage scale in shop" Who

   is (generally) worth and paid more, the shop bench carpenter or the field

   architectural woodwork installer? Or are they worth and paid the same?

   Buic, I am not hiring right now otherwise I jump at this opportunity and say

   hey talk to me but I be glad to help you evaluate an offers of positions you

   might be looking at. I wont discuss any shops publicly in these forums but

   if you e-mail me privately

   I'd be glad to talk with you and help you out. For instance I can think of

   two particular suburban-based/NYC-projects shop that I know of well that if

   they offered you that deal I would tell you to take it in a heart beat but

   then again I can also think of a few that I would tell you to run away from

   too.

   ---

   View Image

   "Function is based

   on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

1. 
   BobKovacs | Mar 06, 2003 04:29am | #8

   Yes, you have your Bobs correctly identified, Jerry.  There I was, trying to keep a low profile, and you had to go and blow my cover......what gave me away? 

   Bob

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Mar 06, 2003 04:46am | #9

   Eh just the writing style and what we were talking about. As soon as I read the PMs/supers salary ranges quoted I was pretty sure it was you. It's sort of funny that online there are a whole bunch of Bob's that I know and everyone who works for or with me is named Mike. It all gets confusing at times. When I told you earlier that Mike was coming by this afternoon I think I was sort of expecting to hear which Mike or Mike who.

   View Image

   "Function is based

   on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

1. 
   BobKovacs | Mar 06, 2003 05:06am | #10

   Well, I don't know how many Mikes you have working for you.....

   So what do I do, now that you've exposed me? lol

   Later,

   Bob

2. 
   BUIC | Mar 06, 2003 08:22am | #11

   Hello ALL,  Thanks for the replies, it's really helped. Your comments give me something to compare my own thoughts against, and I find that quite valuable. I'll know by friday if I've got it and I'll be back to let you know.

8. 
   BUIC | Mar 11, 2003 07:17am | #14

     Well, they offered me the job, and I've accepted.  I'll have to weigh things over the next few weeks and then re-evaluate.  Thanks for the opinions in all the posts, they'll help.  BUIC