Bob
I have been reply, in another forum, to someone selling their house and the buyers HI said that it “did not meet code” because of the lack of GFCI protection on the kitchen countertop outlets.
I know this has been discussed before about some of the reasons that a HI does not use the phrase “meets code”. But what do you use for items like the GFCI’s.
Also I was thinking that there might be a local code requirement for this and the guy was right. For example a lot of local codes require smoke dectors to be added when the home is sold. Possible the same thing for GFCI’s.
Have you ever running into that situation?
Replies
Soon as I saw that title, I thought we were starting up another "Breaktime Novella".
Happiness is watching the TV at your girlfriend's house during a power failure. [Bob Hope]
When I was trying to thing how to title this I was thinking of Walker, Texas Ranger.
But this made think.
What about a Home Inspector TV show with the inspector played by a Columbo type of character?
It seems like NEC requires GFCI for all kitchen outlets within 6'-0" of the kitchen sink, or that the circuit have a GFCI breaker on it. Same for bathrooms. Now, the number of HIs who would actually recognize a GFCI breaker is subject to some debate . . .
When you get the GFCI outlets, don't forget to get cover plates to match the outlet (I've made that extra trip one too many times).
This leads back to one of my pet peeves--finding grounded outlets (or GFCIs) on an ungrounded circuit. Doesn't matter who did it, some one always winds up having to pull cable with a ground in it eventually. I'm just tire of it being me.
"It seems like NEC requires GFCI for all kitchen outlets within 6'-0" of the kitchen sink, or that the circuit have a GFCI breaker on it. Same for bathrooms."
Not really. It requires what there requirements are that was adopted at the time the house was built or last "remodeled". So it might be very legal not to have any, depending on the age.
The current requirement is for ALL outlets that serve the kitchen countertop has to be GFCI protected. Likewise ALL recptacles in the bath have to be protect. In neither case does it matter how close they are to the sink.
"This leads back to one of my pet peeves--finding grounded outlets (or GFCIs) on an ungrounded circuit."
GFCI's don't need a ground to function correctly. In fact using GFCI's is one way specified to upgrade ungrounded circuit to use 3 prong outlets. These can be used for both that outlet and downstream outlet. The outlets need to be so labeled to meet the code. Most GFCI's that I have seen come with the labels.
Cool, thanks for the clarification. I had seen ungrounded GFCI outlets, just not installed. Not much help for kitchen appliances with grounded plugs, but at least it is an answer.
Now, to admittedly nit pick, my real gripe is that finding one problem always seems to lead to another. One bad outlet, leads to finding a grounded outlet on a groundless cable. Then it's zip cord, or knob & tube, or two circuits connected to a "Y" to a single circuit breaker. Yeah, it's part of the job, and we deal with it--I was just taking an oppertunity to vent a bit. I'm just glad that it's Friday.
Would you please explain how a GFCI receptacle can function without a ground wire. Where does the current go? I recently bought a 50's house, and the HI cited ungrounded CFCI's. The seller had to correct this, but if what you say is true, then the work did not need to be done.
The GFCI has a small transfer that is would with the hot wire and the neutral wire so that if the 2 currents are equal there is no output signal. If the currents are not balanced then it generates and output signal and trips the GFCI.
" Where does the current go?"
In normal operation the current goes from the hot to the neutral.
When there is a fault the current goes from the appliance through you to an other ground such as the sink plumbing or the metal on the stove or refigerator.
Thank-you for your reply. If I understand you correctly, the device interrupts the flow of current and therefore there is no need of a ground. Here is another question for you. If I use a GFCI receptacle to adapt a two wire system so that I can use three-prong plugs, my guess is that my appliances and other devices will in effect have no actual grounding. I assume that I will be protected from shocks, but the device will not actually be grounded. Thanks again.
Your assumptions are correct. The GFCI (or GFI, as some prefer) is supposed to trigger within a very fast time (measured in milliseconds, not sure the actual requirement). So theoretically, the current goes bye-bye before you do.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
"If I use a GFCI receptacle to adapt a two wire system so that I can use three-prong plugs, my guess is that my appliances and other devices will in effect have no actual grounding. I assume that I will be protected from shocks, but the device will not actually be grounded. "
I think HGTV has a series where they follow real HI's on inspections. But you're right, it does lend itself to a Columbo "one more thing" type.
-- J.S.
I'm wondering if it would be a detective show, an educational show, or a comedy!.
Excellence is its own reward!
I like your idea, Bill.
I'd watch a show like that in a minute. Imagine, the seller or whatever, getting graded or somehow compared to others' homes. What type of feelings would result? P.O.ed? Encouraged? Challenged? What type of responses?
I'll bet there'd be some real blowups!!
There's a show, "The House Detective" on HGTV about HIs.
It's so-so, IMHO. I don't think you get a good feel for a typical home inspection, but then again, a typical home inspection isn't high drama: a lot of walking around looking at stuff, most of which doesn't signify much.
But a show which concentrated on the actual "detective work" which sometimes happens might be interesting.
Minor example from today: a couple of capped off 1" copper lines coming into the utility room from the ceiling (Utility room at grade level in a split level.)
No apparent reason for them.
Get to the attic a couple of hours later.
What the???? A couple of copper lines wrapped in that black pipe insulation just running across the attic space. Not going anywhere. What the heck?
Oh, yeah, they come up into the attic above the utility room, more or less. They angle off towards a south facing roof....
Ah ha! Consternation turns to elucidation! Remains of a since removed solar heating system!
But, is it good TV?
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
<Consternation turns to elucidation>
That can't be good for ya
get well soon
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Barry E
correct me if im wrong but gfci's dont work on split circuits required in ontario in kitchen areas, so how can you use a gfci
for those unfamiliar with split circuits the outlet is supplied by a 14/3 wire on a double breaker installed so that each hot wire is fed from either side of the neutral
thus if voltage is measured between the two hot terminals of the outlet you will see 220 volts. the rational behind this i believe is that the neutral will be carrying 0 amps if both half of the outlet is being used
im no electrician but makes sense to me
can you add gfci protection to such a circuit?
steve, sarnia ont ca.
Yes, you can use GFCI protection. You have a couple of options.
You can use a 240/120 GFCI breakers. But those are a little expensive and inconvent in that both circuits will trip at the same time and you have to run to the CB pannel.
If they will allow you to split it in the kitchen then you can split it off to 2 separate 2 wire circuits at the first junction box. Then you can use a GFCI outlet in the at the head of the line and then feed the outlets downstream.
Otherwise you can install a GFCI at each outlet box.
Do you every run into any thing interesting like funnny green stuff growing under lights or someone stash of funny cigaretes or moonshine hidden in the atic?
I live on an 100 acre lake that was started around 26 for summer recreation. At the time is was way out in the country, now it is part of the near in subburbs.
This is in Kansas City area and Pendegrass was the BOSS during the 20's and 30's the time. Controlled the Democratic party and that was the only party, controlled jobs, gambling, liquor, etc.
This area was one of his hangouts.
I have heard of a lot of stories, but no proof. One of which airplanes with floats used to been in whiskey from Canada.
2 houses down from mine there is an old stone house. There is an arch in the basement that is filled in with bricks. The stories say that there was storage barn for the booze on the other side of the road and tunnel under the road.
Another house was called the "prisioners house". The sherif would bring out prisioners to build the house for a friend of his. It has a stairway that goes nowhere.
One day a saw a bobcat working in the basement of a rasied cottage with a garage in the basement. I mentioned that to someone and he said that when he was a kid back in the 50's his framily rented that house there where a couple of concrete vats that where from an old still.
Do you every run into any thing interesting like funnny green stuff growing under lights or someone stash of funny cigaretes or moonshine hidden in the atic?
Haven't run into any obvious moonshine.
Lot's of magazines of a less than thoroughly literary orientation stuffed above drop ceilings and attic hatches, some hidden video systems focused on various, ah, sleeping areas; some very interesting "toys" also.
I was doing one house in a non-upscale neighborhood where the owner was having a series of whispered phone conversations and guns and weapons were lying around all over the place. I decided to summarize up off site. As we were driving to the restaurant, I was debating whether my suspicions about the seller's occupation fell within the scope of a home inspection. The buyer asked before I could raise the issue.
A few weeks ago did one in a really non-upscale neighborhood - the tenant was pizzed the house was being sold. On the second try (the tenant threw me out the first try) the owner and his bodyguard showed up, both armed, but they got nervous when they saw the tenant driving around the block, so that one came to a quick halt!
Last week, I was doing a rental in a college area. Nice young kid there who hadn't left for spring break. At one point, I said to him, very serious: "Son, I see there are some open alcoholic beverage bottles up on the mantle. As a home inspector (remember, I've got 35 years on him) I'm afraid I'll have to see your ID."
He'd started to pull his wallet out before he stopped, gave a quizzical look, and asked if I was serious {G}_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
See I told you there is some material there for a TV show.
Bill - most HI's do not use the "C" word for the very reasons you mention.
Different jurisdictions have different rules adopted at different times. No generalist such as an HI can keep track of every change in every jurisdiction.
And come on, it's a matter of a few GFI's. 3 pack at the big boxes for $18 and change - takes maybe 15 minutes per outlet to change (with coffee breaks) so we're talking what 0.000001% of the price of the home?
I tell my clients to consider adding GFI's as a useful safety upgrade.
I also tell 'em not to sweat the little stuff. (I've walked on clients who couldn't stop sweating the little stuff - if they don't have a realistic expectation of what to expect in a used home, they probably have an unrealistic expectation about what to expect from me and I don't want the ongoing phone calls!)
Now, if it's a brand new or couple of year old house with no GFI's ....
And some HI's won't try to distinguish between important stuff and little stuff - I'm not sure why - so they make a missing GFI sound the same as a roof falling off.
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Thanks.
BTW on that same forum someong else is buying a 1950's house and the inspector reported that he found a couple of ungrounded outlets and a couple with reversed polarity.
He asked the HI was that all ment and the inspector said that he check in the pannel and that there where a number of circuits with ground wire so the thought all that was needed to connect the ground wire on those the ungrounded outlets and swaping the wires on the others.
The sellers did not want to fix the problem, but offered $500.
I told him that will it might be that simple that I just finished working on a friends house of that age in that case those were only symptoms of much more series problems and should get an electrican to inspect it.
Bob's already replied, but I'll add this - the last few inspections I've been on, as buyer or buyer's "friend who's gonna translate the inspector for me", the HIs have been straight to the point about not using the code word.
Last guy made it into a bit of a joke, basically saying "I'm not allowed to use the C word, because I am not a code enforcement official. So instead, I use the phrase 'not up to currently accepted practice'. When you hear me say 'not up to currently accepted practice', you know I mean it's not up to code. But I shan't, can't, won't say it's not up to code, it's just 'not up to currently accepted practice'." As we went through, and saw say non-GFCI outlets where needed, he'd say "All together now, this is 'not up to currently accepted practice'." By the time inspection was over, he had us all chanting it like we were the audience at an infomercial.
If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
My parents a few years back sold their house in NJ. Well we come to find out that every house sold before closing has to be reinspected by the city. Bear in mind the buyers already had a HI inspect it. Amd the buyers did not ask us to fix anything.
It took several phone calls and days to get some to show up from the city. Bear in mind we could not close usless the city inspection happened. So the guy shows up he is not in the best physical shape, I am showing him aroud and he is Huffing and puffing after the first stairs.
He points out a smoke dector here one there I think four in all in addition to the four my dad had already. None of the bedrooms had one and the ones the city inspector wanted up were for halls and stair wells.
Well now comes the GfIs I think he wanted eight installed kitchen split, out side, bath the usual places. So I figure out the circuity head to the box store buy the Jumbo Packs go back.
Heres the good part this was a two family house the town has a code that says you can not do any electrical work on two family or more unless you are a Liecensed Electrician. That is none not even to pull a three prong out and install a GFI.
I Knew they had to be done should of replaced them before the city guy showed.
The $18 per three pack ten minutes per outlet came out to be a $400 bill. They let me do the smoke alarms though just battery ones. I am all for being safe but the point is their HI did not point out one wrong thing.