Walls with single top plate? 24″ o.c.?
jimblodgett
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
I guess it’s called “optimum value framing”, or “optimum value engineering”, but whatever it’s called, is anyone framing this way? Studs 24″ o.c., single top plate, stacked framing members floor to floor?
What about 2×4 walls with 2″ EPS or XPS foam on the outside? Anyone using that as their norm?
Haven’t seen much of this type framing out here and am trying to weigh pros and cons. All opinions welcome.
thanks.
Replies
Years back I did all of those as the norm.
24" o.c. studs and stacked members are fine with me , as is the foam .
The single top plate I always had a problem with. Not so much as for it's strength due to lateral loads (Simpson products took care of that , although I always bought the longest plate stock available) as much as because it created a short ceiling in 8' construction heights.
In the early 70's there was a movement towards what was called "Arkansas Framing Method". It used a lot of the stuff you are talking plus the unbacked corners, or 3-stud corner, drywall clips instead of backers,2x6-24" o.c. etc.
Yeah, yeah, that's another thing I keep reading about "2 stud corners". Trying to get my head around that one too.
So let me ask you, say the studs are 24" o.c., are the floor joists above them 24" o.c. so they are stacked? You still use 3/4" t+g subflooring? Does that get a little soft between floor joists?
Yes floor joists are stacked, then studs stacked again, then trusses or rafters also. Inline framing. It was all about minimizing framing members and maximizing space for insulation. Single 2x12 headers ledgered into studs with no trimmers etc. Routed or cut upside down "U" or "V" into the bottom of the studs to create a wire run for the electricians. We often used a high grade DF 3/4" ply topped by 1/2 underlayment with all seams offset under carpet and vinyl, hardwood directly over the 3/4" ply, tile got 1/2" wonder board. If any seam felt soft with the plywood a block was installed to reinforce it. Back then the next choice up in size was 1 1/8 and that we used over 32" o.c. beams. I can't say that the floors were as stiff as if the joists were 16" o.c. and one used some of the newer products but then on the other hand I never had complaints about them either.
Most of my clients lived in their houses for 15-20 years after I built them. Clients did stay in touch so I believe that I would have heard if there were complaints.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Hey. Here's something else I'm wondering about.
That 2" foam beneath the siding. That sure seems like a long way for that nail holding up the siding to go before it reaches the wall sheathing. Say I use fiber cement, you think that's asking for trouble? Seems like gravity would try to bend those nails and let that siding sag.
Am I overthinking this?
We never used fiber cement (wasn't available) and I wouldn't use it over 2" of foam. Furring strips over foam and the siding attached to furring I would do.
Even at that I would probably opt for only 1" of foam. We did a few with redwood bevel and had no problem at all that I am aware of over the years. Sagging of the fasteners was a concern , but it doesn't seem to have caused a problem I am aware of.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
James Hardie fiber cement lap siding can be installed over a maximum of 1" of foam. If you were going to 2", you would need some sort of firring to nail the siding to.
Yep, gotta add vertical firring (strapping or even 1x4) over the foam for nailing siding. This also creates a drainage plane behind the siding. That's the ticket.
How do you fasten THEM so they don't sag, lags?
i think if you wanted extra insulation you could also add 1" on the inside, no?
Glue and nails. it really isn't as big a problem as most seem to want to make it out to be, at least not in my experience.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
a friend asked me to look at his home which just had vinyl removed and replaced with hardie. the home had 1/2" foam over the studs.
installers were not A-1.
the job looked terrible when you got close to the walls and looked up. gaps at the bottom edges of the hardie everywhere.
imo, part of the problem is the hardie product and the manufacturer's recommended blind nailing method at the top. any undulations (there's a 50 center) in the walls lead to gaps.
this job really concerned me about a product i really like.
i would never put hardie over foam. ever. after having seen this.
the whole house is getting torn off and redone.
carpenter in transition
well i'll be, i never heard of a "arkansas corner" before. i've heard of california corners, and arkansas bell holes, but never an arkansas corner.
whooda thunk
Please forgive the file size on this one but this is how we do it.
Open corners, ladder tees, 2x6 24" oc, dbl top plates, span the OSB sheathing from the mud sill tot he first floor studs and from the upper top plat of the first floor to the second floor studs, hurricane clips every rafter, block solid over the top of the OSB sheathing to the under side of the roof sheathing if spray foam in roof, double the ridge beam to catch trees in hurricanes and nail the roof sheathing to the ridge beam to stiffen roof for wind loads, no ridge or soffit vents with spray foam roof. And yes I drew this with a pencil.
m
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Nice drawing! We often used 1/2 ply strips (pre OSB) about 6" w. x 90" l. as wall backers in exterior walls instead of ladders.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I like your ideas but your drawing isnt opening for me. Please give me more detail on the foamed roof. Thickness,type of foam. Any other insulation?
thanks, Keith
Here it is in TIF format Maybe that will work better for you. Supposedly there are some CAD programs that can use the TIFF format to translate pencil drawings into CAD, I'd like to see the CAD program that can translate this drawing though. Pencil still rules as far as I'm concerned. (though I'm trying to learn Solid Builder) I like to spray 7" of Icynene on the underside of the roofs to create a sealed attic. I generally use R 21 High density fiberglass batts in the walls We're designing one now with 10" walls and flash and BIB system. It was originally designed to be ICF or Hebel AAC but we realized we could provide a better drainage plain under the stucco with panelized 2x6 framing with a 2x4 wall an inch off the inside of that (also panelized) and Blown In Batts (fiberglass - spider system) inside of an inch of Icynene. (saves about $30 large on the design we're working on and goes up mucho more quickly with a much better drainage plane IMHO.) ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Yeah, I'm with Dovetail, nice drawing. (I'm a pencil and paper guy, too.) Now I understand what they mean when they say "ladder partitions". Thanks.
Looks like you use 3 stud corners, what we'd call a "California corner". I think I've read advocates of "2 stud corners", but I can't seem to get my head around it. Have to draw it out, I guess.
Floor joists 24"o.c.? O.s.b. floor sheathing?
Edited 6/8/2008 12:35 am ET by jimblodgett
Jim,
A two stud corner uses either drywall clips or a thin backing material ( as I mentioned we often used rips of 1/2 ply for our backing) to allow for maximum insulation.
Simply one stud at the very end of the intersecting walls. Plays heck with outside corner trim and siding however. Simply not enough meat in most sheathing to make me feel real good about the nailing.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I like the method you mentioned to Shelternerd at partitions. I think that makes for great drywall backing, allows for better insulation, saves lumber, uses scrap sheathing and makes life a little easier for subs. Winner all the way around.
Corners are a little different, though. There's the sheathing attachment issue, like you said. Plus I guess I have to get past the idea that it's a "corner post" and should be stouter than any other point along the wall.
I have used California corners for years. That third stud that becomes backing just seems right to me in there. Probably just my comfort level with what I'm used to.
I understand completely. Sometimes it it just comes down to what we as individuals can feel comfortable with despite the "facts" to the contrary. I never could deal with single top plates. I read the engineering , understood it intellectually , but couldn't move it from head to heart.
It just "feels" wrong to me.
Other items I just accepted without a problem.
Notching the bottoms of studs is one I fell for like a turnip off a farm truck, made so much sense to me when the only option for insulation was FG batts. Kept an open and unencumbered stud bay that was much easier to insulate correctly and the sparky had way fewer holes to drill.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
could you explain notched studs, please.
A notch is cut into the bottom of a 2 x 6 stud. We used to either use a router with a 3/4" bit and make a double pass down a stack of studs and create a notch 1 1/2" wide by 1" tall, or make two passes with a skil saw set to a bevel that created a "V" cut into the bottom of the studs. Walls were built as usual and at the bottom of each stud was what was essentially a pre-made raceway for the electrician to run his wires directly along the top of the bottom plate. This kept the wires from crossing stud bays at the usual 48" or so high and eliminated the insulation problems associated with the usual method of running wiring.
Wires were stapled only to the sides of the stud bays where they needed to be turned up to reach an outlet or switch box. They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Edited 6/8/2008 11:52 am by dovetail97128
Did electricians mind pulling wire bent over like that?
I see a clear advantage insulationwise.
Yea, they complained some. Complaints got a lot louder when I pointed out I really should have gotten the houses wired for less since they were mostly predrilled .
;-) It actually depended on the individual electrician , some loved it , some hated it. Since I worked with only one company for many years the owner knew who to send to my jobs .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yeah, I think I'd have a hard time using a single top plate.
I sure don't like the long accepted practice of breaking plates over studs, though. That one has baffled me as long as I can remember.
why don't you like plates to break over studs?
They get shreaded because the framer has to drive two nails within 1/2" of the end of the plate to get into the stud. Just always made more sense to me for the plate to break between two studs.
We always stagger the top plate joints by a few feet anyways. I can see how you'd have to be careful what bears on a plate broken between studs, but if you pay just a little attention when laying out, it's no big deal.
Why does the corner stud have to be stouter than the other studs?? I think that way, but if Im getting the engineering right, a corner stud actually has half the load of studs in the middle.
Middle stud shares half of the load with stud to its left, and half of the load with stud to its right, for a total of 1 load ( so to say). Where as a corner stud only has to share half of the load with its nearest neighbor stud, for a total of 1/2 load.
I wonder if there is much difference in load transfer, or dispersion/spreading, between a single top plate and double top plate.
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Yeah, yeah I agree. It doesn't stand up to much logic, does it. It's just something I'm a little queezy about.
Same type of thing as people who are absolutely positive that plywood cabinet boxes are "better" than mdf. Or that composite materials are inferior to redwood or cedar when used outdoors.
It's just hard to get past certain perceptions, at least for me.
I always framed walls 2x6 24" oc, but when using TJIs the max oc I'd go was 19.2, black diamond territory. I never took TJIs of 2-by joists to 24" oc.So I'd always use a double top plate, I always liked the second plate to help lock wall sections together and, if the top plate on a long section of wall bowed after the wall was raised, a cap plate bowed in the opposite direction could be used to straighten the wall.If foam was used on the wall's exterior, then vertical furring strips would be run over the studs, glued to the foam and nailed through the foam to the studs. Easier and faster than it sounds.I miss framing. My mind missed it, but not my back. I do marvel at the skeleton of a well framed house.