Thanks to all of the DIY programs (This Old House, DIY, etc) I have acquired more tools and have developed a sense of space that has gone beyond my 1960’s brick venear rancher. It has three 1960’S style small bedrooms, two baths, little closet space, small den, dining, and kitchen spaces relative to what is “acceptable today. I live in a wonderful neighborhood that is walking distance to my job. The house is on 1/3 of an acre. I have, thanks to this old house, DIY and other real experiences, acquired several tools for a woodshop that don’t fit into the single car garage which is a part of the house.
I can’t afford (I don’t think) to sell this place and move on. I want to expand this space to accomodate the shop, provide more open living space etc. One alternative is to expand the footprint (easy but with only a third of an acre not the most desireable). The other alternative is to go UP.
All of this is to ask the following:
I have yet to see an article in Fine Homebuilding or elsewehere that evaluated the costs of such a renovation.
I have yet to see a book or article that describes the process of going up in the detail that I would like.
1) would I have to abandon my home?
2) Would it cost so much that I might as well sell and find another property?
3) what are the best ways to go up without destroying the existing one story structure?
4)Can I sister LVL’s with the existing 6″ ceiling joists? Can I integrate 14″Open Web Joists with a structure with 6″ ceiling joists without having to compromise the first for living space?
5) Can I float the addition using Post and Beam (LVL or Glulam) if I can anchor all of the foundations?
I am sure someone out there has done this. Why won’t you share your experiences. I am also motivated by my European friends who proudly state that they live in a house that has been in existance since the 1500’s. Here in the USA we tend to tear down. I would rather not.
Thanks for any positive constructive replies
Replies
Sounds like you have a cou0ple of good reasons to stay on that lot. So then there's two choices: go up like you say, or completely remove the existing structure and build new.
There are frequent articles in FHB about expanding existing homes. But you might be right that they don't do a cost analysis.
Sorry ... had to go solve a crisis.
It should be easy to calculate the cost to remove and replace. So the hard part will be to get a cost for an expansion. One path would be to contact a couple of residential architects in town and ask if they have ever done that, and ask for names of the contractors they used. Then have the contractor visit your house and they can give you a feel for what is involved. Or go to a real lumberyard, not HD or Lowes, and ask at the service desk. Tell them what you have in mind, and they might know of a contractor that could help you.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 2/14/2006 7:15 pm ET by FastEddie
I would look at other alternatives.
Have you finished off your basement? Adding egressed windows and finishing off that area would be easier. Do you have a garage? Maybe unfinished where a roof removal and renovation would be less diruptive to the family.
Bottom line. It will be very disruptive. You could live thru it, but will wish you moved out during the process. It will be next to impossible to save all of the first level and if done ricght, and cost effective, you will lose the roof and ceiling.
I will let others, that know better, offer suggestions.
Forget about living in it while adding up rather than out, especially if you do your own work on it.
JLC has had an article on this, FHB might also have. I know it gets dicussed here at BT about once a year. You might find such a thread with the advanced search button.
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Christopher..
I am in a similar situation...I have a small ranch on a nice 3/4 acre lot in a great neighborhood... It is not possible to increase the footprint to any appreciable size as there is a septic system, well and property line issues that are prohibitive..
So we decided to go up..My plan is designed to keep the first floor relatively the same, just rearranging some partition walls.
The existing roof is coming off but the 2x6 ceiling joists will remain. We will install some LVL beams bearing on the exterior walls (with posts) to carry the second floor. 2x plate will be nailed down around the perimeter of the ceiling joists and the second floor joists will bear on that plate..
So, in theory, the second floor will be built off of the first floor without any disruption to the first floor ceiling..except any localized area where plumbing needs to be connected..
Chris,
As a builder and additions / remodeler, I would certainly investigate the foundation when going up. You are increasing loads on the foundation, and it was originally built as a one story. A residential structural engineer would be the best choice in providing an analysis. I would be hesisitant to go on the advise of a contractor who tells you "Sure, we can do that.", and does not mention or have the same concern.
In one large addition and remodel we did years ago, the HO wanted a new spanish tile roof. I was smart enough to call attention to the added weight versus the existing compostion roof. The HO called a residential structural engineer and after examination, he told us "You could park a truck on the remodel / addition framed roof that y'all did, but I would not recommend testing the foundation with a new spanish tile roof." Problem solved and no assumed risk venture for us that may have failed.
As you noted, going up most often requires a move out.
If you can add on, the addition can be almost finished before intrusion into your existing living area....depending upon plan and a creative / sensitive contractor. No move out required.
As a side note, and not intended to be a suggestion: the historical record in Wharton, Texas shows a home that was lifted and another floor added underneath. I have seen the old progress pics. Wild. The project was years ago.
Wow! I hadn't anticipated so many thoughtful responses. I will address the issues from all of the respondants. In this area of Virginia, for some perculiar reason, crawl spaces not basements are the norm. I wish I had one, then I could use that for the workshop.If my ceiling joists are 6" and 16" on center, can those 12" or 14" webbed joists be placed in between the spacing of the ceiling joists so that the ceilings don't have to be compromized? And will such a solution leave enough room to run HVAC. Plumbing probably wouldn't be a problem because I anticipate going straight up from an existing bathroom.Or is sistering the prefered way?Thanks again, This time I will check back sooner
As others have said, living in a major remodel is usually bad. If you are going to do it and not hate the experience you'd want to totally close off the construction from the temp living space and have a working kitchen. This may mean setting up a new temp kitchen with your appliances and adding a plywood wall to block out all dust. It's human nature to think the dust and other "minor" issues won't be a problem, but it's almost always a biggie.
Very few houses will support a second story with the existing foundation, so additional support can be run up, off of new footers in the crawlspace, to beams overhead to pick up the load. That's a gross oversimplification, but is the most common method in our community.
There are also a few houses that have a second story wider than the existing house with the new walls outside the current footprint resulting in a sunroom/enclosed porch effect. Cost wise this must be expensive for the additional square footage since the original exterior walls on the first level are duplicated.
Sort of a cross between the two are well thought out second story additions that add a few minor projections to the existing footprint to both increase the functionality of the first story and provide a place to hide some real beefy steel supports for the second story.
We were working next to such a concoction last summer and it was impressive how well the additional supports were hidden. For instance a typical 8x14 covered porch with thin columns supporting a thin roof was actually a hiding place for a series of substantial steel beams with steel posts going down into a significant concrete pad. Not cheap, but well done by the architect who designed it and the second story of the house directly next to it.
If it were my house I'd seriously look into adding an ICF full basement with the cahoonies to support the second story. You'd have a well insulated shop space and a good base to go up however far you'd like. The house will also be level and easier to built on, which can't be said for most existing structures as they never settle completely level.
It's not unlike jacking up your house and building a new first floor over a crawlspace, except that your house is much easier to support and less expensive if kept near ground level--at least if ground water isn't much of a problem.
Without knowing all the details about your house it's hard to say what design makes the most sense. It might be wise to find an architect who specializes in second story additions to find an aproach that works best for your situation. My guess is it will be a blend of a number of the ideas we've thrown at you.
Not that I do not want to help, but I am always hesitant to give advise...site unseen. Each situation like this is unique and requires the thought and attention it deserves, and blind advise does not qualify.
Pictures, drawings would be helpful, but my submission related to these docs would also contain a recommendation to seek out an engineers counsil. Mnay times in the past i have provided drawings for an engineer, his fee is for review and revision as required and not for a plan. This process sometimes reduces his cost by as much as 74.375827%.
Hollar if you need me.
As a side note, and not intended to be a suggestion: the historical record in Wharton, Texas shows a home that was lifted and another floor added underneath. I have seen the old progress pics. Wild. The project was years ago.
In communities with small lots and a shortage of land there are sometimes contractors who specialize in raising houses and building a stronger first story underneith. There is one such builder in Kodiak, AK. Once they invest in the engineered lift components it seems rather straight forward. It's hard enough working under a partially supported house, so an entire floating house would really give the heebeejeebies.
Didn't FHB have an article about a builder in Florida who raises houses in flood prone areas and adds a concrete garage to the houses ars?
It's hard enough working under a partially supported house, so an entire floating house would really give the heebeejeebies.
No kidding, a hard hat worn during failure would get pressed into your stomach.
The last two places I've lived (NW Chicago Suburbs and SoCal) have experienced so much value elavation that staying put and investing in the place you aready love makes more sense than buying a new nice house far away from your family, friends, schools and jobs.
If you live in one of the basic suburban neighborhoods that has 400 homes, but are only 6 different styles - take a drive. There might be some 2nd story additions that would work for you. You can then track down the architect and builder, or us it as a starting point.
Back in Illinois, a neighbor did a "Pop the Top" as they call them. They ran new floor joists parallel to the old ceiling joists, I don't think they were connected. Unfortunatly, one night there was a rain when the crew had not tarped off the open roof. The drywall and insulation got saturated, and his wife nearly got a broken nose when the drywall ceiling collapsed in the bedroom in the middle of the night. His home was at that time worth about 250,000 with about 1400 sq ft. He added his entire house again as a second story plus garage, boosting him up another 1700. So for about $100,000, to $140,000 he got himself a 3100 sq ft home worth double what he put in.
Out here in SoCal, a friend of ours lives in a neighborhood where EVERYONE Popped the top. Her house was a typical 4 bedroom ranch. After going up, almost all the downstairs walls were knocked out, giving a large kitchen, dining, livingroom space. All bedrooms were moved upstairs - basicly a ranch to colonial conversion. Personally, I think at least one bedroom on the first floor is a must for access purposes (It's hard to climb stairs drunk, after all ;).
Our house here in SoCal is blessed with a rarity - a yard! We live on a 1/4 acre lot. The previous owner did a really neat addition: A second story was added over the patio area. Two outside edges of the 16'x33' space intersect on the outside edges of the walls of the garage and house. A stairway goes down into what was a bedroom. I could easily see this being constructed in a way that minimised inconvenience to the residents at the time. For some reason, most of my neighbors additions go out over their small yards instead of up.
I would also recommend you look at the Open Structure movement. From what I understand, it advocates construction that is easily altered over time. This means that mechanicals are not intertwined with structure - no cutting joists for sewer lines. This would mean giving an extra 12" of space between the top of your 2x6 ceiling and the bottom of your new floor framing as a mechanicals crawl space.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
There are all sorts of engineering solutions to get extra space, as seen so far in the thread. The real question is how do you want to live in the space? Kids - now or on the way? Need to plan for space for aging parents? Entertain a lot? Cook elaborate gourmet meals or master of the microwave? Where do you see your woodworking going - what kinds or projects, how many & what types of tools? How long do you plan to stay there?
I suspect that you have given this some amount of thought, but it's really valuable to make that the first, conscious and detailed part of the project. It's really easy to get lost in all sorts of technical details and lose the big picture.
One thing that DW and I did before we started design (Kit/LR/Dining/Family room remodel) was to write down - independently and without discussion - our top 10 desires for the end-result. We focused a lot on how we would live in and use the space; how it would feel and work. That really helped along the way in focusing on the right things, and on making decisions along the way.
We kept the same footprint on our 1965 rancher, but pushed out the back of the 1-car garage/shop 4' (unreal what an extra 64 sq ft did for me!). Had to do some point load beefing up of the foundation to clear away a few load bearing walls. The end result is a real joy, and the pain of cooking in the back bedroom for 6 months is pretty much gone. Still need to tackle the bedrooms and baths, but since the kids are gone there is no hurry. That's what worked for us.
Chris, Hopefully some encouragement from someone who has done a similar project to our home. We added a partial second story to ours. Chicago suburbs, brick ranch on a slab. Great house, great neighborhood. two kids. Yada yada.
Didn't pay to move. 6% of equity to the RE agent, moving costs, etc. I think we did OK money wise.
Get good plans from an archi. Well worth the few percentage dollars of the total project. Do you have an idea of the finished house? Is the first floor plan changing? You need stairs somewhere obviously.
We had it shelled so to speak. "Get me watertight" was my mandate to our builder. Concrete, framing, roof, windows. Did a lot of the work ourselves, subbed some.
We didn't move out. Just stayed out of the house when they were working. Demoed, framed, sheathed and papered in week.
They sistered 2x10s to the original 2x6s. Busted out the blocking, disconnected the overhead electric, then reattached. Foundation was fine.
I can give you some rough pricing if you want, don't know how relevant it would be though. Any more questions, just ask.