Water-based floor finish recommentations
Does anyone have a recommendation on the most durable water-based floor finish that would be available through regular retail channels (e.g. HD, Lowes, paint stores?)
18 months ago I refinished our dining room floor, using Cabot’s product with the gloss finish. The room has no carpet, gets a lot of sunlight, and looked beautiful at first. I picked Cabot’s because I liked the warmer tone from having used it in another room that gets less traffic.
Now the floor shows bad scuff marks almost everywhere people have walked. I am about to resand the living room floor and don’t want to make the same mistake.
Other products I’ve seen include those by Zar and Varathane. Any suggestions? I know that Basic Coatings is good but have nowhere to get it.
Alternately, should I forget the gloss finish and just go with satin?
Thanks for any ideas!
Replies
First off I wpuld never use water base poly, never seems to come up with the right patina. The Min-Wax products work fine for me & they have a quick dry one Always satin too it ain't a car. The oil base just takes slightly longer & well worth it.
I second that, I've had good results with water based on other stuff, but not ready to trust it on a floor, satin would be better, but will change the color as well as the look ..
Bona floor finishes. You can't get professional floor finishes at the borgs or local paint stores.
http://www.bona.com/en/US/Country_Start_page/
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
MMitrano,
Here I go again,,
I used shellac because nothing is as durable,, is as safe or healthy, is as easy to apply, or results in as beautiful finish.
Take some shellac and apply it on some scrap. Then take any other finish you want and apply it on another piece of scrap. Nothing will be as durable! There are posts here asking how to remove an 80 year old shellaced finish. (Comes off insanely easy if you know the trick, no sanding required)
You've been eating shellac all of your life.. it's on pills and candy!
If you somehow do manage to scratch shellac you can repair it in less than 30 seconds.. invisable repair! Can't detect it with a microscope (almost-grin, I watch too much CSI)
It will take you about two hours to do 500 sq.ft. most of that time will be spent standing around admiring your work.. It will also cost you around $50.00 at the end of two hours you can walk on the floor and in another hour start to put the furniture back in place..
Ask and I'll give you simple step by step directions which you can't mess up!
Fine antiques are all done with shellac because it brings out the real beauty in wood like no other finish does..
I have a 10 year old oil poly floor finish (over oak) that needs renewing. I like the idea of shellac, although I have never used it. I need to sand down to bare wood in some places where the finish has worn through. Wold I have to go to bare wood to cover with shellac?
Bergstieger,
Yes. I've seen poly over shellac but never shellac over poly..
However once the floor is sanded and free of the poly should it ever get scratched or scuffed you can simply put another coat on top of a clean floor.. new Shellac melts into old shellac and makes an invisable repair..
Plus small scrtaches or scuff marks can be wiped away simply by getting a cloth damp with denatiured alcohol and rubbing fr a few moments.. Scratch-Be-Gone!
If you try the two finishes you'll see that shellac is harder to scratch than poly is and it dries harder and harder for about 30 days.
I've got shellac over water based poly on oak strip flooring in my house. I shellac'ed it about 5 months ago and so far so good. It is just a single coat of Seal Coat (I think Seal Coat is a 3 lb cut?). The shellac was preceded by a quick, light sanding at 120 grit. More gloss than I really wanted but in general it looks great and seems to be holding up very well. We have only 1 small dog so it hasn't had the Newfy test but I will say that in the same 5 months this small dog has scratched the heck out of softwood floors with a water based poly topcoat.
bobl.
Seal coat is the 1# cut shellac, Bulls eye is the 3# cut
Thanks. I know I'll never keep that straight. Maybe I'll get a tatoo. :^)
Frenchy, hate to one up you, but I think sealcoat is 2 lb cut. I just used it to finish a bookcase I built.
This bookcase is the first time I have used shellac as a finish. As a topcoat on cherry, after a coat of linseed oil, I have been bewitched. Absolutely beautiful!
Dustin
Dustin,
You're right,, It is a 2# coat when you thin it to the recommended amount it's a1# cut..
I buy Bulls eye because it's about the same price and it's a 3# cut which I over thin for ease of application and faster drying..
Maybe that was a bad question. What I meant to say was that I have several rooms to refinish. One needs sanding down to the bare wood, but the others could just be lightly sanded, leaving the existing polyfinish. Does a shellac finish on bare oak darken and eventually look like one done with oil poly? Or will they always look different?
The previous poster answered your question.. about shellac over poly.. I'll admit that I haven't seen that so I just learned something.
As for shellac darkening the wood, that's a little more difficult to explain. Over freshly sanded wood shellac does add some color.I can't say for sure it will darken it over your currant poly finish, I would suspect it's close.. but you can Play with it a bit to match.. Zinssers sells both the blonde and the amber shellac. You can add a little amber to the blonde to see.. try it on scrap..
wax required?
Frenchy,
Everything I've read says that back when it was common to shellac floors, people would put wax over the top of the shellac; keep the wax buffed; and have to strip the wax periodically as it built up . . . but I haven't seen you mention wax anywhere. Do you wax your shellacked floors? Or use shellac only and call it good?
Frenchy hasn't been around since The Rapture.
Frenchy, I still think you should write an article for FHB about this. You are a great shellac salesman!
I read a post somewhere else and thought of you. The homeowners bought the house and didn't know what kind of floor finish was used but it chipped easily and was discolored in areas where liquids had spilled and been allowed to sit for a time. It was shelac....
One thing's for sure - I haven't posted here in years but you still love that shelac! lol
I still think you've lost your tree and nothing works as well on a floor as oil based poly, but you are right - it would be easy to touch up. Heck many sanding sealers for poly are shelac based so if someone didn't like how the shelac was wearing it would be a simple thing to add a few coats of poly over it.
Along those same lines, often hardwood is installed and left with nothing but a thick coat of sealer (shelac) until after construction has stopped and the floor is final sanded and finished. It's obvious that the shelac by itself is not as durable as poly - if it was people wouldn't use poly.
I was happy to find Home Depot clearancing gallons of shelac sanding sealer for next to nothing.....I do love the stuff as a sealer/primer under lacquer, poly or even water based finishes.
Most folks keep the tavern stuff out of the substantive stuff.
Remember Mary Dyer, a Christian Martyr (Thank you, Puritans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Dyer
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
I think the key to successful water based floor finishes is unfortunately using satin. I use "Mega" which is very easy to put down, and more importantly to touch up. The floors in my own house are pre-finished "Mirage" with seven coats of factory installed water based satin finish, and they still look good after 11 years.
Thanks! I think I knew that I was overreaching when I tried the gloss.
I do appreciate the greater durability of the oil and poly finishes, but I will be having the family in the house when I am doing this (including mysmell-sensitive spouse), so I think I will stick to water based. Without getting into the merits of shellac, I'll just say that it tacks up way too fast for me to enjoy working it on such a large area.
Gloss on walls, but for floors it's too unforgiving.
I am in a similar situation. My main floor is a polished concrete slab, saw cut and grouted. I need to re-finish it and would prefer the durability of a xylene based sealer, but can't figure out how to apply it around family and pets.
fingersandtoes,
shellac!
First coat is dry to the touch in 15 minutes! I've walked on shellac 2 hours after I started. I've put furniture down in three!
MMitrano,
There is a real trick to applying shellac quickly to a floor.. the trick is you over thin it (2 gallons of denatured alcohol to one gallon of zinssers Bulls Eye) and quickly mop it on with one of those lambs wool applicators.. Don't try to paint it. it's faster than you are.. simply mop it on as fast as you can..
Don't worry about getting it straight and even. or even getting everything. You see the second coat melts into the first coat (and so-on&so-on&so-on) and when it does it corrects everything! Flood it on the floor and get out of it's way!
I'm serious, 500 sq.ft. takes less than 5 minutes to apply. way less!
Shellac is one of those finishes that you get it on and get out of the way. It will do the work for you and resents interferance..
Last night I did 43 6"X6" white oak timbers. Some as long as 18 feet. I did three and in some place 4 sides. I would be very surprised if I spent 15 minutes doing it.
To tidy people this seems nuts, wrong! but if you've ever done shellac you'll know the frustration of dabbing it on with a paint brush.. it simply dries too fast! That causes all sorts of ridges and problems..
Once you've applied it wait 15 minutes. On the first coat only if you reach down onto the floor you'll feel little nubs that were raised from the alcohol. Sand those off with either a 220 grit sanding sponge (3M, the yellow ones) or a DA sander with 220 grit on it. Do not use sandpaper and your hand or palm! If you must use sand paper wrap it around a flat block of wood.
This is real lick and promise type sanding. A second to a second and a half per sq.ft is all you should do.. Don't try to "fix" anything, remember the second coat melts the first etc.. 500 sq.ft should take you about 10 minutes or you're wasting time..
Then wipe up the white powedry residue and apply the second coat just as fast. Don't ever go back over anything! If you've got a holiday (skipped spot) get it the next coat. If it's not quite right or something ,, keep going Don't ever go back! The second coat will take twice as long to dry about 30 minutes.. the third coat will take twice as long to dry as the second coat (about an hour)
I think about three coats is perfect, some might like it thicker but thicker isn't more durable, in fact it can possibly cause problems. I have used up to 5 coats on furniture pieces where I was going to do a lot of color (or finish sanding, where you start with 220 grit sandpaper and work your way grit by grit right up to 4000 grit)
There is another technique which I've never been foolish enough to attempt on a floor called french polish. For a 500 sq.ft floor we're probably speaking about a lifetimes worth of work (I'm kidding) but it's massively more work for only a marginally deeper gloss!
Here's the good news, if you get shellac on your soxs or pants it will come right out in the wash!
Yet shellac once completely dry (takes about 30 days) is remarkably immune to water! Unlike the myth You can splash water on it, walk downstairs pick up a towel discuse what you're going to have for lunch with your family maybe even go out to lunch, come back remember you were going to wipe up the water and when you do the only thing that will happen is the area with water on it will now be dust free.. <grin>
Let's deal with other shellac Myths as long as we're at it.. booze and shellac..
Well straight 100 proof booze is only 50% alcohol! so you have time even if you're drinking straight single malt scotch neat!
Mixed drinks and beer wipe right up.. If someone spills their single malt scotch and doesn't tell you first remember not to invite that person over again,, (wasting your scotch like thatTsskTssk!) but fixing the problem is simple..
Remember the second coat melts the first coat? Well wipe up the damaged area with denatured alcohol and reapply however much shellac was lost. Same as before. Invisable repair.. No sanding, no muss, no fuss!
OK what does hurt shellac? well Ammonia does.. so don't use ammonia based produts on the floor. That shouldn't be too much of a burden, I mean you don't clean your furniture with sandpaper, so don't clean your floor with ammonia.
Water does too..
(I know but just follow mefor a minute) If you leave an area wet for too long. It will turn white. So if you set a sweating glass on shellac overnight use some denatured alcohol to remove the damaged area and simply reapply the shellac. Remember the first coat is melted by the second coat. Invisable repair!
Scatches? Remember shellac is harder than poly's or other finishes, Well as long as the wood isn't damaged simply get a cloth damp with denatured alcohol and rub briskly for a moment or two untill the scrqtch disappears. If small children are watching remember to say Abra Cadabra!
Hey frenchy, this is a great solution for me as well. We have graduation in 2 weeks, and a floor that has needed done for years. Question is, how much do i need, and where is best source? Room is 15X12 3/4" by 2+ maple, and will be sanded bare to level out ridges from being reinstalled. Are shellac flakes pretty much consistent, or is one source better than others. How much alcohol will I need, etc.., etc.., etc... . Thanks for your insight on this.
Also, is flakes the way to go, or premix? Thanks again
Edited 4/28/2008 11:26 am ET by bowquack
Bowquack,
Flakes are too much work and are more expensive than premixed.. Go to any big box store (home depot, Lowes or major paint store) and buy a gallon of Zinssers bullseye.. (white can yellow band) Pick up two gallons of denatured alcohol and if you don't want to bend over so much one of those lambswool applicators on a handle..
With that small of an area you could get by (barely ) on 2 quarts and a gallon of denatured alcohol..
You will also need a clean bucket to mix things in. dump the shellac in first.. and then some of the denatured alcohol dump the rest of the denatured alcohol in the can of shellac, (might as well rinse all he shellac out) and then into the bucket holding the mix. Shellac settles so you'll have to give it a brief stir just before you use it.
Now assuming the floor is well sanded.. I always burnish the sloor with the finest grit or screen they have available.
Those square floor sanders are the cats meow! I think they are about 22"X24 inches or so. Very hard to burn gouges in the floor with them. Easy for DIY people to use.. Start with the coarse grit to remove the old finish and work up through finer and finer grits untill you get to the finest grit available. I think 120 is about it)
Now because I don't like to track shoe prints I switch to stocking feet. I vaccum up all the dust and then take a big towel that's slightly moist (not wet) and wipe up all the remaining residue.
Ok haul your bucket to the room and just like you're going to mop the floor flood the floor with plenty of shellac. Do It fast! Just slop it on! spread it out.. I start in one corner away from the door and work towards the door flooding and spreading.. not worried at all about being neat! Go as fast as you can and try to flood everything.. But DON'T GO back over anything! If you miss a spot get it the next coat.
If alcohol fumes bother you have the windows open and because I have lungs scared from painting I buy one of those disposable masks made by 3M with charcoal in them and slide them on ..
15 minutes later the floor should be dry enough to walk on.. Now comes sanding time..reach down and rub the floor with your palm.. feel those nubs? they are wood fibers raised from the alcohol and you need to sand them off.
Either buy one of those 3M sanding sponges the yellow 220 grit ones or take your DA sander with 220 grit sandpaper. Do not use sandpaper and your hand, if you must wrap the sand paper around a wooden block! This is real lick and a promise sanding. it should take a second to a second and a half per sq.ft.
DON"T try to sand things perfect! The second coat will melt into your first coat and you simply will have wasted your time. Sand off the nubs period! When floor is free from the nubs use that towel to wipe up the residue and flood on the second coat..
Do it just as fast! flood it on (aim for any spots that you missed with the first coat) slow and neat are a mistake! Shellac dries faster than you can paint so don't paint, flood!
The second coat will take twice as long to dry, about 30 minutes. Then check for any missed nubs and if you find them sand them off and wipe up the residue.
Now flood on the third coat.. this will take twice as long as the last coat to dry (remember every coat melts into the previous coats) about an hour.. I like to wait a little longer if I can because shellac gets harder and harder for the next 30 days but I've put furniture down in an hour when I've been rushed.
If you like what you have,, you're done.. you can put more coats on allowing each coat to dry twice as long as the previous coat but too thick is a mistake..
Shellac is stronger and tougher in when it's thin.
(it's also easier to repair) Save the remaining shellac for any future touch ups in a sealed can with as little air as possible.. I would keep a can of denatured alcohol around both to show off to children your magic scratch removing tricks (remember to say abra Cadabra, hocus pocus and give the proper flourishes <grin> ) and just in case your daughter tries out her new skates on the smoth shiney floor!
Now clean up!
If you are a s sloppy as I am I use a band of masking tape around the border of the floor to keep from splashing on the molding etc. I'd leave that on a bit and when I pull it off later that night I'd quickly wipe up any flakes that come off.
Your soxs, that towel, and if you really splashed around your pants, will all wash clean in your regular laundry. Don't worry, mix with your regular wash! The lambs wool applicator just let dry. next time you use it, soak it in the mix for a bit untill it softens up (remember the new will melt the old )
This is fun! slow and carefull isn't fun so don't go slow or carefull! Don't "paint" it on flood it on!
Let me know how it went for you..
Sounds easy enough but what about the baseboards and areas where the existing floor meets an existing floor that already has a Poly finish.Our situation is the entryway to the house was carpeted, Its a small hallway and small open area so 3ft by 8 and 6 X 6 (we let it and the stairs this way till the kids got bigger and the dog was gone, which is now). This area meets the existing living room which is hardwood and already finished and the kitchen which is the same for the door opening. There is no threshold between rooms (that came out with the carpet) nor in the walk through into the kitchen. How do you handle these areas? It would seem the shellac would just run right into the other room with your method of application? Can it be done?ThanksTom
Ribs,,
Sure tape it up! Shellac dries so quickly you can't believe it.. I mean 15 minutes after the first coat goes down you're walking on it? How long would water take to dry that completely? Do you see my point?
To keep from flooding an area at the same level you have to put your tape up like a fence but that's not hard.. If you don't understand I'll try to explain.. just ask..
Depending on air moisture Frency it would take 1-2 hours, where I live in warmer months 30 minutes for water based to dry. With out all the odor. Here is a question for you how dangerous is shellac as to flash point, from spark, or open flame, pilot light, etc.Wallyo
Edited 4/28/2008 1:43 pm ET by wallyo
wallyo,
That also depends on how the shellac is cut.. Read my instructions.. that's why I over thin it to a 1# cut..
Yes, really humid weather slows the process up somewhat, but you will also wind up with cloudy shellac if you shellac when it's really humid..
If you mix two gallons of denatured alcohol to one gallon of Zinssers Bulls eye that's a 1 pound cut (actually fractionally less) that dries in 15 minutes.
sand the nubs off and apply the second coat and that dries in 30 minutes.. apply the third coat and that dries in an hour.. I don't like or believe in really thick coats as some do. But each coat you apply takes twice as long to dry as the previous coat.
Frenchy I was answering your question which was "How long would water take to dry that completely?" By water I took to mean water based finish, all I was doing was giving you an answer to your question. I was not asking how long it would take for shellac to dry. May be you meant standing water, I don't know. You have stated several times that shellac will dry in 15 minutes I don't need to read or reread your replies I get your point. Wallyo
wallyo,
sorry, I missunderstood.. The question was meant to be rhetoric..
Edited 4/28/2008 4:04 pm ET by frenchy
Frenchy, I know you are a shellac guy and their is nothing to change that but the way you worded your question I thought you were wondering the dry rate of water based. Sorry for any misunderstandings.But back to my other question how flammable is shellac? Should all pilot lights, furnaces etc be shut down when using it on a floor or in an enclosed space on a book case.Also I have an old (50 years PLus) oak file cabinet. I spilled rubbing alcohol on it and left some drip marks so I am pretty sure it is shellac if I wanted to give it another coat or two what would you suggest. I don't need all the details just would you use the bulls eye straight or thin etc. light sanding?Wallyo
Wallyo,
I've been using shellac for a long time and I understand fire/explosion risks reasonably well. To get enough fumes to explode would require a great deal of concentration.. Alcohol is reasonably inert. While it clearly will burn it also quickly picks up any moisture present in the air which decreases it's ability to burn so the difficulty of getting it to ignite is greatly increased.
The best way to put out an alcohol fire is with water.. water quickly dilutes the alcohol making it impossible to burn.. It's not at all like natural gas or gasoline vapors which pool in concentrations volatile enough to cause explosions..
Sure as an extra safety measure you could do all you mentioned.. It won't hurt.. However I've never done so. When I am really going at it I might if the weather is pleasant open the windows. Often that's enough for me to apply shellac without my usual 3M dust mask with carbon.
Next if you have a shellacked oak file cabinet with spots on it take a clean cloth, get it damp but not dripping wet with denatured alcohol and wipe it. That may do all that you need.. If you want to add another coat first remove the spots by wiping them off and then add a thin coat. 2 parts Denatured alcohol to one part of Bullseye.When you brush the shellac on do so quickly because it's 's easy to develop ridges when brushing. Shellac dries so fast it's nearly impossible to keep from getting a dry edge which is what produces those ridges.
True you will build up shellac faster if you follow the recommendations of one part of denatured alcohol to one part of Bullseye, But that produces ridges even faster unless you are a really great, speedy, painter.
have you tried spraying shellac on a floor? i'm thinking either hvlp or crazily enough a garden type sprayer (not the type that attaches to a water hose, but a pesticide sprayer)
mytulpa
I spray it with my HVLP gun anytime it's over head. (I'm building a timberframe home and I shellac all my timbers) However it's a lot faster to apply with one of those lambs wool applicators.. (plus I don't have to be all bent over!) maybe not the seconds spent in applying it but the time spent in lugging out the air hoses, paint pot, clean up, and etc..
With a applicator there is no clean up.. I let it dry and then next time I use it I soak it in the new mix untill it's nice and soft! 5-10 minutes or so. Helps me stir the mix up..
Listen! I got lazy down to a fine science! Shellac is the lazy mans paint!
> But back to my other question how flammable is shellac?
In a confined space, you can have a vapor explosion from ethanol without setting the liquid on fire. That's the best current theory on what happened to the ghost ship Mary Celeste. She had a cargo of 1701 barrels of alcohol, 8 of which were found to be empty. The theory is that the vapor from those 8 barrels ignited, blowing off all the hatch covers, shooting blue flame up into the air, and scaring the captain and crew into abandoning a perfectly sound ship. Had they known to open the hatch covers when the weather was good and let the fumes out, nothing would have happened.
Moral of the story for shellacing a floor: open the windows. ;-)
-- J.S.
I have never messed with the stuff that is why I like water base it tends not to explode or ignite. But I would think dumping shellac on a floor in the perfect setting one could burn a house down. Thanks for the nautical history lesson I just got through reading one of Ballards books on great ocean liner wrecks.Wally o
Edited 4/29/2008 8:16 pm ET by wallyo
wallyo,
I doubt you can get alcohol to explode in a room.. The concentration is too small and the allowable tolerance of explosion is no where near what gasolene or natural gas is..
The difficulty of water based finishes is that they need to be sanded off when worn.. plus they aren't as hard as shellac is..
Finally antique dealers would use water based finishes if they made the wood look good. It doesn't and they don't.
Frenchy the one part that you have wrong is that you do not need to sand the finish off to re-coat a water based finish, you can screen it quickly 12x11 room 15-20 minutes and re-coat it. Problem is most people let it go too long to the point of deep scratches into the wood surface itself and that requires a complete sanding. You don't have to you could re-coat it but the deep scratches will still be there. Believe me I am not knocking varnish and am keeping an open mind I just don't like things that could flash up instantly and am wondering if varnish is one of those things.Had a cousin that nearly killed him self was putting formica on countertops in his house using combustible cement, the idiot lit a cigarette. He almost brags about it now "got the insurance company to buy me a new kitchen". You and I are smarter then that it is the others you have to worry about.Wallyo
wallyo,
Yes that is true, if caught before things go to far some water based finishes can be saved.. However unlike shellac which melts into the old finish, water based is one finish on top of an older finish. That does have the potential for failure or problems especially if the finish has been reformulated. Reformulation is a real probability!
As to fire I'm glad you brought that up.. The example given of the Mary Celeste is a classic example of fear and ignorance causing in that case people to lose their life..
If you recall the ship was found sailing alone apparently after the crew abandoned ship.. There were also 8 empty barrels found.. Well alcohol will not ignite if diluted with water (water in the bilges is normal in sailing ships of that era) (which it does so instantly upon contact).. gasoline on the other hand floats on top of water and can still burn or even explode..
Thus the risk of the alcohol in the bilges catching fire was nil! sailing ships of that era were filled with highly flammable stuff.. hemp, tar, sails, etc. all easily caught fire and had fire actually occurred on board the Mary Celeste chances of total involvement with flammable stores like hemp and tar pitch etc. are too great.
Chances are what happened is someone smashed a oil lamp while checking cargo and panic resulted.. the fact that the alcohol didn't ignite has more to do with it's inherent safety than any flammability of the contents..
Clearly if 8 of the barrels had leaked their content those barrels themselves were poorly constructed.. As you know no glue is made in making barrels, it's a combination of tight fitting staves and band tension of the steel rings.
There was charring reported and a smashed lantern which supports the conclusion that none of the alcohol ignited..
Finally if we have to go back 150 years to find an incident where alcohol was involved isn't that in and of itself proof that it's safe, especially considering a ship who's prime cargo was alcohol was involved didn't burn?
I am not saying one should be cavalier about safety ever, however there is fear and there is respect..
Let me suggest a way for you to safely educate yourself about fire and alcohol..
Buy a small can of denatured alcohol. go outside and pour a small amount* on a safe piece of concrete well away from anything flammable. Now light it.. Please note that when it burns it has an almost invisible flame. Pour some water on the fire and watch it go out instantly.
Next pour some more and wait say 10 minutes and try to ignite the same alcohol, doubtful you'll be successful.. if you are note how quickly the fire goes out.
Now for the final test mix some water with the alcohol say 1/2 and try to ignite it..
If the windows are open and you aren't playing with open flame, using reasonable caution the risks involved are really minimal.
* about a shot glass full, no sense in making a big scary mess.
Why don't you tell the IAFC that all they need is water.Instead they are testing special foams to control alcholo fires.http://www.cstone.net/~sfcav/2007News/ethanol_emergency_response05.htm.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann.
Did you ever take a science class? If so they probably taught you that alcohol absorbs water! Put enough water with the alcohol and you can't ignite it with a blowtorch!
At the Indy 500 every pit has water to fight fires.. If you watch them refueling you'll see them squirt water at the refueling probe upon breakaway to ensure that any invisible flame (alcohol burns extremely clean) doesn't get into the tank.
"Did you ever take a science class? If so they probably taught you that alcohol absorbs water! Put enough water with the alcohol and you can't ignite it with a blowtorch!"So you are suppose to mix your alcohol with water before mixing it with shellac?If there is no problem with fire and alcohol why is the IAFC wasting money researching it..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann
You're asking me why an organization I've never heard of is looking into something?
Since you found the group why don't you ask them that question?
The fact that you have never heard of the IAFC just shows how little you know about firefighting and fire hazards..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann,
One of us was a Navy firefighting instructor and has all the paperwork on file. One of us has taken guys into closed burning buildings and taught them to fight 1100 gallon jet fuel fires. One of us was recruited to be a firefighter by the city of Edina prior to completion of military service.
I don't think it was you Bill.
And yet you don't know what the IAFC is..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
poll time!!!!
how many breaktimers know who the IAFC is.No googling, either.
I've heard of & read NFPA codes, but have no idea who the IAFC is, myself.
Anyone that followed the link would know what the IAFC is.Anyone with firefighting experience should know what the IACF is..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Edited 5/3/2008 9:24 am by BillHartmann
Don't you mean the IAFC, not IACF? Most of us grunts wouldn't know about it.Back in the day, I raced alcohol fueled motorcycles. Very dangerous fire, you couldn't see any flames in the daylight, just the vapors. It's the kind of fire you don't want between your legs!Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Yes. I went back and the rest where correct..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Hi, Frenchy --
I finally did three coats of shellac on that bedroom floor over the weekend. I'm a happy guy, and it's not from the alcohol fumes. ;-) I worked with a window open and a fan blowing out the whole time, so the smell wasn't an issue at all. The fan also helped a lot with the finest part of the dust.
Patching and sanding the old wood was by far the biggest part of the job. I also used oxalic acid to bleach two stains. I thought I'd be using a lot of it, but most of the dark marks turned out to be superficial dirt that came off with sanding. There was one really ugly eye-catching very black stain, about an inch square. The oxalic acid lightened it so much that it now matches the piece next to it, and I can only find it by knowing to count five boards over from the edge of the closet door and then look for a joint about a yard into the room.
The local paint/hardware store didn't have the lamb's wool applicator, so I got the thickest wooly roller cover they had, and just wired the roller so it wouldn't turn before putting it on. That worked surprisingly well. The only irritation is that you can only get close to the wall with one end.
I did the first coat, just pouring the thinned shellac onto the floor and spreading it with one side of the non-turning roller. I probably did it a bit thicker than you do, because some places were still a tad tacky at 15 minutes. So, I gave it 30 minutes. I also figured that I'd have to cut in the edges, and originally I brought a 3" brush for that. But I was able to get so close with the end of the roller that I changed to a 1". I went all the way around the room cutting in after the first coat was dry, but before sanding.
Sanding the nubs wasn't that big a deal. Perhaps it varies depending on the wood, but I didn't really have much by way of nubs. It was more of a very slight texture thing. I couldn't feel actual individual nubs. A quick swipe with the 220 grit paper made it feel smoother and slipryer. I started sanding nubs in the field of the floor, and when that was done, the cut-in edges were dry enough to just keep on sanding. There was very little white powder to wipe up.
This wood was very dry, and 80 - 90 years old, so the first coat soaked in quite deep. So did the second, which went on very easy. I took a dinner break, giving the second coat three hours to dry.
The third coat happened after dark, by the light of a couple CFL's, and on the third coat I made the mistake of changing the order and direction I was working. I thought to try doing it in a big "U" shape, in order to use the good end of the roller to get close to the walls. That's where I ran into the going back over problem.
You can go back over if it's wet enough, or if it's dry enough. The problem is that sticky in-between time, which is what I ran into when the end of the "U" came up against the beginning.
The other third coat issue is that by now there was enough shellac on the floor that at night it was very difficult to tell the existing stuff from the new third coat. I think I may have holidays in the third coat. I put everything away for the night at about 10 PM.
My stepdaughter is delighted with the results -- or maybe just delighted to finally have her room back. I expect that she'll have the furniture moved back in before I get a chance to see it in the daylight. I want to re-paint the baseboards and install shoe moulding, she just wants to get out of the downstairs guest room and get her bathroom back. ;-)
Bottom line, I'm a shellac convert now. Thanks, Frenchy.
-- J.S.
John Sprung
I'm glad it worked for you.. One more convert! 299 million 999 thoussand 996 to go <grin>
I'm sorry I mislead you about the lambs wool applicator thing.. I have used big old barn paintin' brushes in the past but became a convert to the standin' up way of shellacin' with a lambs wool applicator.. That way I can flood it on really quickly which means there aren't many if any hollidays..
I'm glad you found a workable solution..
Frenchy can you use shellac over a water based stain on hardwood flooring?Also, when you finish a floor you typically allow a period of time before putting an area rug down.I think the general rule of thumb is 30 daysIs shellac the same or does it "cure" quicker than the other finishes.Thanks for all of your info on ShellacI'm not afraid of work - I can walk right up to it and take a nap
mrfixitusa,
I have no experiance putting shellac over water based but a while back someone came on and said that you could..
I put my carpet over the shellac the next day. (carpet not a rug, but lying loose not nailed down no padding), I've checked to see if there is any problem a couple of times but haven't moved the bed off yet so maybe where the bedposts were pressing down it might have stuck. Big deal! Easy enough to fix, remember new shellac melts together with old and makes an invisable repair..
However I walked without hard soled shoes for a month.. I don't know if that was really needed or not. I figured what the heck!
Yes it takes 30 days fro the shellac to get really hard so if you're going to test the shellac by putting water on it for a few hours wait at least the 30 days.. <grin>
'
Even when not used as a finish shellac is often used as a barrier coat.Either to seal in old unknow finishes, but also to seal in stains and dyes. Often used between coats of different "colorants"..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Shellac is used as a stain blocker, so it'll stick to most anything. The questionable part is what it'll look like. My job had a little old varnish here and there, but I got lucky on that, and it looks OK. It might come out darker or a different color depending on what the other material is. There are so many that you just have to take your chances.
-- J.S.
A local brand, Parks, started making a shellac based HW floor sealer, compatible with all finishes, below it and above. Supposed to stick to anything. I used it on some floors of a house I just bought, over previously finished wood, then top coated with oil poly.
Will let you all know in a few years how it goes.
I also used Minwax water based poly for the first time on top of pre-finished oak in the kitchen. Just a screening and 2 coats. Looks nice, fast and I like the color, much warmer than the other water based stuff I've used in the past.
Another comment on the combustibility of ethanol:
A typical "chemical magic" trick is to ask a member of the audience to volunteer a linen handkerchief. The "magician" dips the handkerchief into a glass of 50:50 ethanol:water mixture, soaking it thoroughly. The magician holding the handkerchief with tongs ignites it with a match. The audience gasps, the owner of the handkerchief faints at the possible destruction of hanky, but the flame (nearly colorless) goes out after a short time leaving the handkerchief nearly dry ready to be given back to the owner. The flame temperature of the burning alcohol is too low to char or burn the linen but sufficiently high to evaporate the water in the handkerchief. If you try this,it is safer to palm the donated handkerchief, exchanging it for one you provide that can be sacrificed if an edge of the handkerchief does char a little.
Hey frenchy, wanted to thank you for all the info. I am able to check the forum most mornings while I drink my coffee, and I really enjoy (though not necessarily agree) with all that the regulars post for us "lurkers". Keep it up all of you.
Why has there been such a big switch to Poly if Shellac is so easy, repairable and durable? Was it pure marketing or are there other factors? I'm guessing from some of the other posts the Shellac has some strong odors are there any VOC issues with it?As for my question on baseboards, I assume they should just be covered and taped to keep the shellac off? Would a few layers of newspaper do or would you need more protection that that?Thanks
Ribs
I use a single roll of 2 inch masking tape.. the blue 3M type.
I suppose that shellaking produces about as many VOC's as a the average corner bar does on a typical night..
If you buy medical grade alcohol which doesn't have the 2% denaturing stuff added to it you could drink it.. However watch it.! Medical grade alcohol is 200 proof!
(don't drink denatured alcohol it has 2% of something in it so it can't be used as a cheap drunk).
You first question is one that I can't figure.. I do know a fortune was spent advertising Poly's and Nobody really markets shellac.
IN fact if you go to most paint stores or big box stores they really don't even know where it is! Let alone it's features and strengths.
I'm going to confess, I found out about shellac because I'm both lazy and a horrible painter, (and cheap too)
Shellac is a better painter than I can be, all it asks is get it on and get out of it's way!
It dries so fast that tidy people tend to have trouble with it drying while they are painting! Hence my flood it on approach!
fast, cheap, easy, I love it! But keep it a secret otherwise the demand might increase the price too high!
"Why has there been such a big switch to Poly if Shellac is so easy, repairable and durable?"
First off, I love Shellac and have used it many times, though not on a floor yet.
Shellac is not necessarily so easy to use depending on what you're trying to achieve. As Frenchy mentions, he's using a very diluted/thin cut which dries fast, but builds slow. Polys build a thicker finish faster/easier because of their flow and drying characteristics.
Shellac is far more repairable than Poly, but the Poly guys will tell you they don't need to repair Poly at all for water or alcohol contact like you do with Shellac. Shellac is also not as resistant to heat as is poly.
Clouding with Shellac is an issue, but it is with Poly as well. Humidity is the enemy.
But here's a big one - Poly is petroleum based, while Shellac comes from the dried secretions of the Lac bug refined and dissolved in alcohol. Poly is also "new and improved" and was marketed initially as a replacement for Shellac and an improvement over pure oil-based finishes and varnishes. For people used to seeing water rings on tables for 100+ years, Poly's waterproof claims sounded pretty good.
More important today perhaps, Shellac has a limited shelf life in premixed form. Old Shellac (over 1-2 years) will not dry properly. This is why I primarily buy the dry flakes and mix my own as needed. BTW, the sweet smell of Shellac drying is not nearly as noxious as traditional poly.
With oil prices skyrocketing and more emphasis on green products from renewable resources, bug-based Shellac may make a comeback yet.
Windows Guy,
I hope some day you do get to use shellac on your floor. Please try my overly thinned way. If you use shellac as directed on the can you will need to be really good to prevent ridges and brush marks.. Plus it dryes about 4 times as slow.
So instead of having the third coat on, 2 hours later you're waiting for the first coat to dry enough to walk on.. Shellac is best when aplied in a thin coat. I understand the trend towards thick, highly polished coats but shellac is really ridgid.. Too thick and as the wood shrinks and swells with normal changes in humidity and is not kept flawlessly dust free, 5 to 10 decades later shellac can alligator on you.. Oh you can quickly remove it with some denatured alcohol but if applied thinner say 3 or 4 overly thinned coats it's far less likely to be a problem..
As to shellac and poly, normal approach with Poly is put a coat on and go away and come back when it's dry enough to walk on (usually the next morning) etc.. Shellac I can start in the morning and have guests over for lunch.. True shellac takes 30 days to get to it's maximum hardness but that's not a real imposition to ask your guests to remove their shoes for the first 30 days..
I tromp all over my shellaced floors in dirty work shoes.. My 150 pound Newfoundland puppy who absolutely refuses to trim his claws (or let me trim them either) hasn't damaged the finish yet and he really comes in with muddy paws.. I mean what a slob!. Periodically I wipe off the mud with a wet rag and then dry the area with a towel.. If I could just get him to clean his muddy paws at the door!
Poly is softer than shellac and when damaged leaves tell tail marks if partially repaired..(I know that seems wacko but please test it your self on a small scrap of wood)
Shellac melts the previous coats so makes an invisable repair..
Water isn't the killer of shellac you think..
I've had standing water on my shellac floor for hours , wiped it up and the only result was that area was dust free.. <grin> (maybe I should dust more often?)
Yes if left long enough water will turn shellac white.. but the repair is so easy and dust free that it's no big deal! No sanding required just denatured alcohol and shellac.
Beer booze and wine too isn't the horrible thing you seem to think.. beer is what 10proof, 15Proof? so is wine and most mixed drinks..
Even 40 year old single malt scotch isn't 100 proof which means it's under 50% alcohol.. If you poured that single malt scotch on the rocks and then spilt your drink you should be able to wipe it up mark free. but if not, shellac repairs so easy!!!!!!!!
Scuff poly and you either live with the scuff and scratches or you start sanding.. scuff/scrtach shellac and your rag moistened with denatured alcohol makes them disappear. Please remember to say abra cadabra alaKazam if small children are present.
Well I suppose you could say rubadubdub, :-(
One of the other things is my overly thinned approach seems to be magic. I've yet to have problems drying shellac with that approach (I buy shellac by the gallon it's soooooooo much cheaper than buying the flakes and mixing your own!) I stopped checking the date on the bottom of the cans several years ago.. really old shellac overly thinned takes 20 mintes to dry, maybe!
On the other hand there isn't the wide variety of shellac that flakes afford you so if you want to be creative of differnat buy flakes!
I sure agree with you that shellac is green and safe! Pills and candy have had shellac coatings on them for a long time.. alcohol is what most of us celibrate with after the job is done the only nasty stuff is the 2% of whatever they put in denatured alcohol to denature it so teenagers and whinos don't use the hardware store for a cheap drunk..
Shelaced by Frenchy
Well frenchy, you have me shelaced. I've got two floors in kitchen, dining, and living room. One is maple the other douglas fir (softwood but old growth with very close grain). They are about 70 years old but house was built from recycled materials so the wood itself may be much older. Maple in good shape, was under a wall to wall carpet and needs a light sanding to remove old finish. The Douglas Fir was refinished with polyuirethane about 15 years ago. It is full of many, many dents from sharp edges of chairs around the dining table. So I have a few questions.
I guess shelac will only produce a glossy finish, not satin? We can live with that..
Part of the fir floor with the polyurethane has had the poly 'burned off' by the sun coming in through a floor to ceiling window. How will the shelac react to this high light intensity. Will it crack or darken? If it does, can it be refinished with another application as you discuss?
What about the dents in the douglas fir? I don't particularly want to sand them out as that would be a lot of sanding. I had to sand off linoleum remnants to get that refinished 15 years ago and don't want to repeat that drujm-sanding experience. Can I sand most of the polyurethane off, then soak with water to raise the dents, and then sand again? What would happen if I applied the slelac over this floor if the dents still had the remains of the polyurethjane in them? Ot should I try to remove these remains in the dents with a solvent once the floor is sanded?
Thanks for the 'shelacing' and for any additional advice.
Bob
PS We have a 100 year old upright piano that I stripped of shelac 25 years ago and applied an oil finish to. It needs another application of oil pretty badly now. Wish I'd had the shelac advice back then. The original 100-year old shelac on the inside of the top which never sees the light of day is crazed but you can still see opaque reflections in it. I guess I could blend out the crazing with another shelac coat but maybe its better left alone.
I like the idea of Shellac
Sounds like an ideal finish for floors. So, way is it such a novel and rarely used idea? Seriously, what is it floor finishers are worried about with shellac? Is it the water mark issue and that most people will not or don't want to repair their own floors?
????
I agree with Hammer I uses BonaKemi finishes what you buy at the Box store vs at the wood flooring dealer are two different animals, There are more solids in the Bona Kemi then the others. http://www.bona.com/en/US/Country_Start_page/Wallyo
Basic Coatings is another supplier of flooring specific water based finishes..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You can use gloss for the first two coats, and satin for the last coat. This is a bit more durable and easier to do. When using satin, be sure to stir often, as the satin flakes sink to the bottom.
A hardwood company I work for sometimes uses a water based urethane product called Dura Seal 1000. It is available locally through hardwood flooring suppliers.
Dura Seal also has an aluminum oxide finish which is even harder.
The product costs more than hardware store finishes but with everything, you get what you pay for.
http://www.duraseal.com/sections/products/fp/1000-fin.htm
http://www.duraseal.com/sections/distrib.htm
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
I have had good luck with the Parks family of water based poly in bedrooms. So far has lasted over 10 years on softwood floors sanded to bare wood. Start with sanding sealer, then 2 or 3 coats of poly. You can get a catalyst which will make it harder, but I haven't seen much difference.
Here is link to products http://www.newparks.com/PDF/TDB/TDB-Water_Base_Poly.pdf
They are available at HD. I only have used the gloss version.