I will be replacing my water main in a 100 year old home. I would like to know what kind of pipe you all recommend, pex/copper and do you surround the pipe with sand to protect it during backfill?
Do I insulate it to be safe? Any other tips would be appreciated.
“It is what it is.”
Replies
Poly pipe is what is used here, but it is not your sprinkler thin walled poly, it is thicker either blue or black with a blue strip. One inch dia. for potable water. No need to insulate, though it needs to be below the frost line for your local area or approved depth if in some place with no frost line. To back fill with sand a couple of inches above the pipe is a good idea to protect it.
But you are in the Chicago ? You probably have to use by code something that is more labor involved, like 5 foot sections of galvanized pipe with two master plumbers and three apprentices on site. Just kidding, call your plumbing inspector or water dept to find what is approved for your area, it varies by geography.
Wallyo
Edited 5/16/2008 1:46 am ET by wallyo
Edited 5/16/2008 1:48 am ET by wallyo
I am originally fron Chicago but live in Upstate New York now. I think our frost line is 5 feet.
You are correct about Chicago codes though you forgot to mention that 3 guys leaning on a shovel or broom are required for evey job. LOL!
Thanks for your help.
"It is what it is."
Depending on how long you need to go, you may want to look into directional boring versus trenching.
I have to go about 25 feet.
"It is what it is."
Edited 5/16/2008 9:38 am ET by ChicagoMike
It will cost you more to get that 25' trench dug than the poly and fittings, if'n ya gotta go 5' deep :(
Yeah, I am now finding this out. Even a rental will 200 a day.
"It is what it is."
I have to correct you, the frost line isn't 5' in NY. But to be safe you have to bury water line to 5or6'.
If your water line is from a water co. line, call them, they will tell you.
If it's from a well use the black poly pipe!
At one time I believe that Chicago had a code prohibition against plastic pipe of any kind. You need to find out what's allowed.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
I would use copper for the flexibility of it. I would worry about plastic or steel because one can crack and the other rust, but this is based on layman's assumptions. I heard sand should be used but if your backfill is relatively free of rocks, you don't have to. I don't think you have to insulate. They are already buried under the frost line.
Just one thing: this is again something I heard but can't back up with professional's knowledge, therefore, please ask the water company or do research. Copper will deteriorate with reaction with other metals. Make sure if you're using copper that connections or other things you bury with the line doesn't cause this reaction.
Hope this helps.
I would not use copper useless code prescribes, I do not know why you would think of copper as "flexible". Heavy wall copper in one inch is no way flexible, I would not burry thin wall copper. PLus have you purchased anything in copper lately, three dollars a pound scrape. Wallyo
Softdrawn copper tubing is used, not copper pipe.But still note that it would not be that flexable.IIRC only flared connections are needed under ground. But for 25 ft that should not be necessary except possibly at the main shutoff unless htat is in an accessable meter pit.I understand that PEX is also allowed along with polyethalne tubing.PVC can be used, but I would never use it. Too many underground connections no flexability..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thank you all for your imput.
"It is what it is."
You don't have to trench the whole thing. Check out this set up, it's what they always use around here, especially when you need to deal with farmers porches, sidewalks, etc.http://www.hammerheadmole.com/products/waterline_slitters.htmAnd use pex and the compression fittings. For my house a few years ago, the 100' of pex and the compression fittings, it was less than $200.
Just had another thought if you use poly, pex or cpvc, be sure to run a tracer wire in the trench.
You will likely remember where the line is, but a future home owner won't be able to locate a non metallic water line. Run a tracer wire from the meter to the first metal pipe at or in the house. The line can then be easily traced by a locator in the far future.
If you cushion the line with sand, I have found it convenient to lay a line of yellow caution tape over the sand before the trench is backfilled with dirt. This come in handy for anyone digging in that area in the future. They dig up the caution tape first and know to go real easy, because the pipe is not very far underneath the tape.
If a backhoe operator hits that tape line he will bless you for saving him an expensive repair bill.
That's a cool Idea. But I am also changing the location of the main line. Right now, it runs along the side of the home all the way to the back. (Odd I know). I will be running the new one from the front corner of the house to shorten the run and to consolidate the mechanicals in the same place in the basement.
"It is what it is."
Here's another thought, I knwo I have to ask the power company about this. Any harm to running an underground elec service line near or over the water line?
"It is what it is."
Mike Bill Hartmann will know better but I think not. or if so they must be X distance apart horizontal and vertical. Which in your case may not be of issue since the water pipe is 4-5' deep and the electrical I think 18 inches deep. Is the elec service overhead now? I am leaning that separate trenches are needed for safety if you ever needed to get to the water pipe there is no chance of hitting the elec. But Bill will know if
Yeah, the service is overhead now. It is smack dab in the front of the house and I will be residing soon. I figure that since I hate the meter in the front of the home, I can move it to the side and while I am at it, I could run it underground.
The elec pole is right next to the town water shutoff that my main ties to. So this is why I am thinking to kill 2 birds with one stone. A trench needs to be dug for the water. I was thinking back filling part way and then run the elec service.
I have always hated overhead services anyway. Especially when the wire runs down the front of the house. I will call the power company planner and get the details of the placement. I just didn't want to sound like an idiot suggesting this.
"It is what it is."
No, it is done quite often but it is the power company that does it usually or their sub contractor pole to meter is there gig so be prepared for sticker shock. Here some neighborhoods have alleys with overhead, that is free but what is getting common is for people to have the power company run down the pole to the alley garage, put the meter on the garage with a main panel, the under ground to the house to a sub. One guy I know was real lucky the pole was right next to the garage, just down the pole 18 inches below the soil up the garage wall to the meter. The rest was his electrician, sawed the garage floor buried the line across it then across the lawn to the house.You may have to go a bit to the side of your water trench for the elec, but you will have the equipment there already. Don't know, instead of a mini back hoe can you use a trencher? Some go pretty deep.What pipe have you decided on? Interesting lots of opinions on that, at least no one said galv. steel.Wallyo
I am leaning toward copper. I guess b/c I am old school, but not old school enough to think about lead. LOL. I have that now.
"It is what it is."
I prefer copper, but I'm cheap.
In the house, it has always been copper for me, but I'm not opposed to pex.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Doing the underground utility is easy. I'm in MA and they want it 18" down, anything less needs to be covered by concrete but deeper is better. We ran ours last year for new siding and put it about 2 1/2 feet down. For 200 amp here they want 2" pvc, most do 4". You can do all the digging and run all of the pvc, get your inspections and have a chase rope to pull the new wire or run the new wire right away. The power company here, I think it was a few hundred for them to re attach into the pole, the cost will be with the electrician setting up the new service. It very simple to do the grunt work though and that will save you money, especially if you have the machine to dig anyway.I helped some with a copper water line a few years ago and trust me the pex is much easier and works great. I think 1" L copper is $4/ft right now, K copper is probably much higher. I've only seen one main done in copper around here, everything is PEX and that includes the custom mansions where money is no object. The pex will last forever and will not have issues with kinks, or rubbing on rocks, etc.
Thank you sir.
"It is what it is."
mike I would still check with local water co. to see what they want.
Last I knew around here they want copper, but that was several years ago.
The local guys are pretty cool. I can use whatever I want, as long as the O.D. matches their valve.
"It is what it is."
The NEC has no rules that prohibit other services in the same trench. above, below, or to the side.AFAIK the there is some limitation in the other codes for how close water and sewer can be, but none other.Now the POCO and the local AHJ may have different rules.Also you want to check the with POCO about where they want the meter. They control that.BTW, a local municple owned utility had a grant to install free underground service. This was being down because of the problems that the area has had with ice storms.A friend of mine has a rental house that they was done on.But the subcontractor that they used managed to trench through the sewer line from the house..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
my main line is one inch PVC.
Its just an observation from having seen a pinhole repair done once. Yes, the copper is expensive but I think using plastic has its own cost. I think if you use plastic, the backfill has to be non-compacting type (rock dust?) and has to cover the pipe to certain depth, then backfill with regular soil. This is what I read in a post, but it's been some time ago and I can't remember how to locate it. What I imagine is, just in case, one of those huge tree cutting crane wheel resting on the wrong spot. Maybe I am taking my imagination to an impractical degree, but almost nothing is impossible.
A copper, probably soft copper as one post mentions, would be laid with curves so that if there was a pressure on one point, it would give more. The guy who did the repair I was looking at said the backfill need not be clean, and all the rocks he dug out around the pipe seem to support what he said. I covered it with sand, however, when he wasn't looking. He did not mind.
I also seem to remember something about an article in FHB that pex should not be buried near or through concrete. I think fresh concrete would leach chemical that can damage pex. Sorry, but I don't want to go back to every page of some 30 issues I have. I am sure pex manufacturer has information on this. 100 year old house may not have this problem. I think the pex is supposed to go under the footing, staying some inches away from concrete, and come through the floor slab, protected by short pieces of pvc.
It's been mentioned in other post, check with your water company. Localy they require 200 psi poly pipe and some high dollar compression fittings made for that paticular pipe.
Your local water may have certain requirements.
do not use pex it ,contaminates from the ground can penatrate through pipe to water
could you explain, please!
i think it has to do with the cross linking , i have not done any experimenting but have read it in some of the mag. i get and from whearhouse people
my parents had to replace their water pipe, but the plumber didn't trench or anything.
He had the backhoe dig next to the valve at the terrace. Then hooked the new copper onto the old pipe in the house. Had the backhoe slowly pull the pipe out to the street, with the new copper attached. Kind-of like fishing a wire in a wall. Maybe 20-25ft worth.
Hooked up at the valve, hooked up to the meter, good to go.
Bowz