I have a question about the way my plumber laid out the water lines for our new house. The incoming water line and pressure tank are on one end of the house (unavoidable, unfortunately), and we have plenty of pressure and volume delivered to the two baths and shop deep sink on that end of the house. However, the kitchen, master bath, laundry, and 1/2 bath are all on the other end of the house–and are fed by a single 3/4″ copper line (that is, 1 for hot, 1 for cold 🙂 ) I’m thinking that the resistance of 60′ of 3/4″ is what is preventing me from enjoying adequate pressure/volume on this far end of the house. I have flushed out all the lines, and am convinced I have no blockages/kinks/ etc. I have reason to be skeptical of this plumber’s work–this is the same guy who plumbed hot water to my refrigerator, 1 sill cock, and 2 toilets. I’ve also had to re-set 3 of the 4 toilets as the wax seal leaked, had the refrigerator line leak and ruin my hardwood floor, and too many other painful problems to even begin to relate. (this clown was not my choice–unfortunately my GC had a lot of trouble finding any plumber to work out in the boonies at the time we built). The basement is still unfinished, so I could parallel a second 3/4 (or larger) line, or even rip out what is there. Incidentally, the 3/4″ lines only go over to the crawl space under the far wing–everything is 1/2″ from there…
Appreciate any ideas you GOOD plumbers might have <g>!
Howard
Replies
Did you clean all the aerators/ screens after you flushed the lines?
Otherwise not enough info...
How many floors?
What floors are baths on?
Same for kitchen and other drops?
How many feet of what size to each drop? count total feet to drop from tank for each drop. (drop at angle stop, not fixture.)
Low pressue all the time or just when using 2 fixtures?
60' of 3/4 is not a whole lot... reduced to 1/2" for drop...reduced to 3/8" for fixture... reduced to 1/8" for aerator.
60' of 3/4" is a lot when you've got to pump all that cold water out to get hot water flowing from the sink.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.
From 32866.117
Sam, thanks for the reply. Here's the additional info:
2 story house, kitchen, laundry, 1/2 bath on main floor, M.bath stacked above laundry.
The wing that has plenty of pressure has full bath on main floor (within 10' of water supply in basement) and full bath stacked above.
All aerators/screens are clean.
Pressure is always low--doesn't matter how many taps are open--1 to all of them.
Length of drops--kitchen is less than 5 feet from end of 60' 3/4 run. Laundry is 15', 1/2 bath same, M.bath about 30'. All drops are 1/2" Sill cock (the one that used to be plumbed to the hot water) is about 10' away--and really lousy pressure. I'd have to buy a pressure washer just to wash my car. I've even pulled off the frostproof valve to check flow--no blockages.
Yeah, 60' of cold water is a lot of waiting--thinking about adding a circulating return line on a timer before I finish the basement. With just the 2 of us, and both working all day, we could run it for only a few hours total each day and get away from most of the waiting and wasting water. Could also look at an on-demand heater in the crawler--but they're expensive to buy and run for the flow I'd need. Only place for a closer conventional water heater is in crawler, and code doesn't allow propane appliances in crawlers (nor would I want to!) I have insulated all the hot water lines.
Thanks for any ideas,
Howard
If I'm reading this right you have
1F FB: 5' 3/4 + 5' 1/2
Kit: 60' 3/4 + 5' 1/2
Lau and 1/2B: 60' 3/4 + 15' 1/2
Mast B: 60' 3/4 + 25' 1/2 + 15' rise
sillcock: 10' 1/2
With these design specs you should not be able to notice much, if any flow differences (with one valve open) even between the 1F FB and the 2FMB. There will be a flow/pressure difference cuz of the El difference, but not so's you would worry.
Do you have good flow at the 1F FB? Is the sill cock as I described?
At his murky point I am suspecting a lot of solder at or around the main shutofff valve (subject to change as I know more.) I've got a picture of this hack flowing an ounce or more of solder into each joint. especially a short verticle nipple.
Hang in there. We'll find it.
Consider aluminized PEX for the return loop.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
Sam,
Almost correct.
1F FB: 5' 3/4 + 5' 1/2 all 1/2--10'
Kit: 60' 3/4 + 5' 1/2
Lau and 1/2B: 60' 3/4 + 15' 1/2
Mast B: 60' 3/4 + 25' 1/2 + 15' rise
sillcock: 10' 1/2 +60' 3/4
Excellent flow & pressure at the 1F FB. I like your hypothesis about the solder. After all, this is also the guy who managed to set my floor joists on fire--and went home without noticing! Fortunately, my GC was standing in the LR, and kept smelling smoke...
Short of tearing everything apart, any ideas on how I might be able to locate the suspect joint?
I like your idea of the PEX return--much easier than snaking solid copper all the way across.
Thanks,
Howard
with the same problem on both the hot and cold side the problem (if only one) is in the common pipe between the main and the water heater. check the full volume flow out of the W/H drain.
dismantle (or just replace) any short vertical runs. the solder, in order to be a silent obstacle, must deeply puddle before it sets.
If you find 2 errors, do you want to repair or replace all that he did??????? an obstacle that will allow good flow can still cause rapid erosion of the pipes. I have heard, but not seen, of pipes leaking in 2 years because of turbulence erosion.
If he was overflowing solder to compensate for other bad techniques, you may see leaks soon.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
Sam,
Hmmm. Talk about missing the obvious--I hadn't thought in terms of both hot and cold being affected, hence a common cause. I appreciate all your time and suggestions. DW and I are headed off to do a little camping in SW Colorado for the next week on vacation, so I think I'll take your warning seriously, turn off the water to the house (which I can do without turning off the water to the sprinkler system--my sprinkler guy was very conscientious in his design), and I'll start pulling stuff apart when I get back. I'll let you know what I find...
Thanks again,
Howard