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Pete – There is a product that is inserted in the jamb after you remove the parting strip and the sash cord and pulleys. The old sashes are used but I don’t remember how they were inserted to remain operational. I believe it is a complete unit with its own parting strip and operating system for the sashes. It’s not a product I have used. I read so much it’s impossible to pin down my information source. It might have been in FH or thru one of the reader response cards. Good luck and if I run across the info I’ll post it. Ralph
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I'm one of those crazy home renovators who is returnig his home to 1890's look-and-feel. I have put the spring-bronze material in the tracks of the windows in my home (and triple-track storms on the outside -- which is not so "old looking, but a lot warmer). The combo of the two has produced a lot less of the feeling that the wind is blowing through the house without impediment.
I left the counterweights, but replaced ropes with chains.
In my windows, there wouldn't be enough depth of the mullions to replace the glass with dual-pane modern stuff.
Bob
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Pete, two things:
First is the window sash weights can be removed and sash jamb liners installed. Here in the east a company called Brockway-Smith (Brosco) makes or distributes such a product. There must be others in your area. Look for a wooden window manufacturer.
Second, TOH used a routed in weather strip, which looked like a silicone-rubber tube with spur backing on the Milton, MA house. The usual "Marlon Perkins*" type segment, where Steve introduced some Dude with his little Bosch Laminate Router, and they had at it. I have no idea as to which product it was, but it seemed more of a service rendered, than a off-the-shelf item.
* Marlon Perkins was the Mutual of Omaha "Wild Kingdom" host, known for "watching from the helicopter" while Jim pokes that Grizzly Bear in the butt with a sharp needle. He paved the way for Martha, Bob, Steve, et al.
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The weather stripping George saw on TOH is probably the product offered by Resource Conservation Technology, 2633 N. Calvert St. Baltimore, MD 21218 (410)366-1146. They usually have an ad in FH and handle the specialty router for making the grooves the silicone beads fit in. It's not inexpensive but if you do a lot of weatherseal retrofits it might be a good investment for a remodeler. Ralph
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Pete,
I can't personally reccommend these products but I thought they might be worth a look.
Jerry
Pulley Cover
Sash Lock
Weather Strip
*Pete, Here's one from the archives. Post #9.1 describes how I updated some old windows. Prior to going this route I searched for a kit or replacement parts that would work, but could find nothing that appealed to me. Most seened to be cobble-on stop-gap measures destined to fail in a few years.The first window took a few hours. From that first window I set up jigs and ran the remainder off at a decent pace.A bit unconventional, but it worked great.Mongo
*Pete,I have done both the spring bronze and routed in inerlocking weatherstripping. Both work very well if you do them right. The trick is to get enough play so the window is free to move but tight enough to seal. It is definatly a "feel" thing. If you do it yourself take your time with the first few until you develope this. Dont take to much off a window. get a good sander, blockplane and wetstone. Plan on it taking a while.If the windows are square I would use the interlocking weatherstrip. If time has taken its toll on the house use the spring bronze. It is easier but will require mataiance more often. Paint the raw window edges and let then dry before relplacing them. rub a candlestick on the new metal for lubrication. Dont forget the top bottom and parting strip.Rick Tuk
*I've used RCT -- their main claim to fame is a long series of EPDM weatherstripping profiles. Their strips and sweeps are more for things that swing or compress -- like where the sash contacts the sill. The rout-in stuff is for when you can't disassemble the frame of a door. For windows you can do better since the sash are removable -- seal the entire jamb-to-sash contact.
*Sorry to answer a Q with a Q, but there are just so many options. Do get rid of the counterweights, they are the least charming part of old windows. You can fill the cavities with low-expansion foam in seconds. Many of the weight-replacement springs are cheap, but there are some nice ones such as Mongo used. In fact, Mongo's was the best I've heard because the jamb liners will take care of guiding, sealing, and counterweighting the sash all at once, no mucking around with adhesive and little nails.I prefer preservation, but consider that you could replace thse windows at about 40 minutes a piece with tight, modern wood ones and not have to preserve the old stops, etc. (Just to keep perspective...) Once you get going, either fixup or replacement will go at a good clip. Also, be careful -- the old windows were very likely painted with lead paint at some point.
*If you want to keep the counterweights, one neat idea to get insulation in there is to use a piece of PVC pipe:Cut some PVC pipe, just enough larger than the weight and just long enough to allow its full movement up/down. After installing this around the weight, pack in any kind of insulation you want around it without concern of interference with the weight's original function!This will help the wall R value around the window, if you really want to keep the weights. (call me anachronistic, but I kind of like the sound of them banging around in the wall when I move my windows :-)
*A purist!
*Funny you should mention the PVC thing. Someone told me the same idea about an hour ago. The problem is that if a rope ever breaks, you have to tear apart everything to get to the weight. So.... being the rocket scientist that I am, I thought that formming a channel out of coild stock or sheet metal that could be installed around the weights and fastened to the backside of the jamb would be better. The channel side against the jamb would be open against the jamb so that you could acess the weights as you normally would. You could then insulate in any way you want without the fear of ever tearing all your trim boards and pipes out.For the project I originally posted this thread for, I think I will just recommend simple weatherstripping around the windows, new storms and leave the weight pockets alone as opening them up may result in having to refinish the woodwork which the customer does not want to do.Pete Draganic
*Pete,Excellent choices - I was about to vote for using new storm sash to provide the insulation that you're looking for and leave the weights and sash alone - if in working order. I've never been able to stomach to look of the plastic jamb liners on new windows or for window tune-ups. Efficient yes, but just plain ugly...in my opinion. Good luck.
*Golly ! Don't you guys remember having to take the wooden storm windows down every spring, and paint and putty them and put them in the garage and make sure they had the little brass number on the casing so you could put number 9 back where it belonged and each window had a Roman Numeral carved into it so it would match the little brass number pin. And put the screens in for the summer and then go to the hardware store and get some rolls of felt so when you put the storm windows back up in the fall with the long round head screws that had the slots all bunged up and someone said "Here use my Yankee Screw driver" and if you were lucky it was the one that didn't have a spring in it and if you were unlucky it did and the bit managed to drive right thru the glass after slipping off the last screw while you were on top of a 32' ladder. So one year you didn't put the storm windows up and the house was freezing all winter and the coal bill was over $200 bucks, Damn !Anyway, the real answer to AUTHENTIC WEATHERSTRIPPING of old windows is S-T-O-R-M windows, wooden ones. We're talking about job security here , folks. This could catch on again.Hey , you remember how easy it was to sell triple track aluminum storm windows to the guy with a garage full of wooden storms ?Next week, we'll talk about firing the coal furnace all winter and where in the hell are we going to put all these ashes ?
*You're dating yourself... Personally, I grew up in California where for some reason they just don't have all these problems.Pete, if you can't disassemble the windows, then V-bronze or EPDM are probably your best bet. Seal the jambs, meeting rail, and sill/head jamb contacts. I still think those counterweight pockets are evil, and air leakage through them will make your efforts insignificant. There is some sort of counterweight pocket sealer out there ... but there's probably air coming through the casing anyway... Try RCT for starters, they'll advise over the phone.
*Amen ,Mike
*Andrew D: They are still only single glazed. Have you ever seen what a window looks like after a winter of condensation getting into the muntin bars and running all over the sills?Sealing the edges is great, but as far as heat loss goes, you're only getting some of the air infiltration and none of the air moving thru the sash weight pockets, which run from header to sill.If you go into colonial restorations around here, you're going to see wooden storm windows with the same muntin patterns as the primary windows, and some very discreet weather strip. AND all of the maintenance I described. Those that do restore and don't go the storm window route change their mind after trying to live in them for a winter, not just expensive but so drafty that people don't want to visit.Besides, now you can get that shaper you want and the sash tools so you can build your own AUTHENTIC storm windows because the lead time and the price is more than the cost of setting up your own window shop assuming you're talking 20 windows or so.Think of new OLD skills you're going to develop. The AUTHENTIC sash king in your neighborhood.Me, I'll take Andersen vinyl clad and fool with the trim.
*Agreed re condensation -- our triple-tracks are one of the reasons I've been ripping out the entire window, frame and all. Besides, I always smash my fingers in those darn things. (an added bonus of pulling out the window, besides getting to jump up and down on the sash pockets, is that you can insert a significantly brighter window approx. 4" wider than the old)In this house, and I'm sure many others, the drafts come right out of the empty walls and solid sheathing -- the sash pockets are just one escape. Fortunately, our house is not a candidate for "historic preservation," though i do draw the line at vinyl...
*I'd research the storm window route Pete.I wouldn't think the mullions would be thick enough to accept double panes either. If the cord and weight system is working ok it would be kind of a bummer to replace it with the vinyl spring tracks just to fill the weight pockets -- you'd still have the gaps that you want to weatherstrip. I've done the vinyl spring track retrofit, and they look ok I guess, but the old feel of weight and cord windows is gone. There's nothing like the feel of opening a big wonderfully ballanced double hung window. If your client is into the preservation thing, he might be bummed with the spring loaded vinyl sliders. It's a step better than replacing the whole window though.I'd go with storm windows. Fhb#112 has a story on making them, but it seems to me I remember (maybe Marvin) makes custom storm windows that blend into existing windows very well. Good luck,Dan
*Try http://www.marvin.com/showroom/combination.htmlProbabaly not cheap.
*Interior storms are another option. We use these now after restoring our 6 over 6 double hungs on our brick house. We so liked the look of the house from the outside that we couldn't bear to cover them up with alum triple track.These interior storms are plexiglass with a vinyl frame that adheres to the window frame with a magnetic strip. With curtains in place they are virtually invisible. The plexiglass is crystal clear and the original look of the house is not compromised. These storms seal very tight, and work best with tight double hungs.Drawbacks? fairly expensive and no protection for the outside glazing from winter storms, but we like them.What I would like to know is how to weatherstrip our old sashes. There is no parting strip between each sash, the sashes slide directly against each other, so there is no beveled section where the bottom of the upper sash and top of lower sash meet. Any suggestions? What I do now is to seal the windows up with "Seal and Peal" caulk each fall and remove it in the spring.
*Bot one from Marvin for a 1680 gambrel. Lots of miscommunication, even though I faxed them shop drawings, long lead time, and very expensive. About the same time as the FHB article. That's what convinced me that if I were doing say 6 or more windows, I'd set up my own shop. I could make good money and give the customer just what he wanted and in a more timely fashion.You can even go seeded glass, or scrounge around for old deformed glass.The other nice thing is that you can prime your muntins before you glaze, and get a better, longer lasting paint job.
*My relationship with Marvin has gone a little smoother, and I order the sash preprimed. I really like their workmanship. I thought it was cool I could fax in the muntin arrangement I wanted and they'd just do it, for no extra cost (we did a "Queen Anne" arrangement for the kitchen, just for the heck of it).
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Hey guys,
I have a customer who wants to keep the original windows in his house but wants to tighten them up against Mother Nature. I was wondering what would be the best products and methods to utilize here. I typically replace windows and never had to "weatherproof" old existing windows. They are nice windows and it is a nice house and this customer is really into the preservation thing. His house is absolutely gorgeous. Looks like you stepped back in time 90 years when the place was brand new.
I would really appreciate what advice could be lent here.
Pete Draganic
*pete, describe what you've got. is there any of that interlocking metal on the sash? sash cord? divided lites? storms? do they want something that requires no spring / fall change? dbl. hungs? how bout them browns!
*Sorry about that... the windows are wood double hungs. Rope and weights. There are 3 lites top and one lite bottom. Otherwise these are as standard as any window of it's type.Pete Draganic
*Lots and lots of options. How involved to you want to get -- i.e., is disassembling the windows an option, or do you want to leave the sash in place and add weatherstripping? The counterweight pockets are one of the greatest sources of air infiltration, and of course they're a pain when those cords snap.
* Well,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*Seems I'm getting more questions than answers here. If I knew that much about it, I suppose I wouldn't have asked the first question. Of course Joe filled in most of the blanks for me.I don't think that this customer is concerned about the cost of this project if the results warrant it. I would like a good angle of attack to make these windows a bit more efficient. What types of stripping can be applied for best results and operability. Disassembling the windows I assumed to be a neccessity here. Obviously these old windows will never be as efficient as new replacements but he wants to preserve the original components of this house as opposed to replacing them. I've seen plenty of systems for doors and have installed a few but a door is a completely different animal than a window, obviously. Perhaps the weights and ropes could be replaced with spring type counter balances and the unused weight pockets filled with insulation. I have even thought about replacing the single glass panes with thermo/double panes although I don't know if that will fly. I guess what I am really after is actual types of stripping to install within the jambs. I have seen the copper strips that go in the track areas, perhaps there are rubber ballon type strips that are a good product. I need suggestions, experiences with other products, innovative ideas...so on and so forth.Pete Draganic
*Pete - There is a product that is inserted in the jamb after you remove the parting strip and the sash cord and pulleys. The old sashes are used but I don't remember how they were inserted to remain operational. I believe it is a complete unit with its own parting strip and operating system for the sashes. It's not a product I have used. I read so much it's impossible to pin down my information source. It might have been in FH or thru one of the reader response cards. Good luck and if I run across the info I'll post it. Ralph