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The term price fixing leaps to mind as every driller in my neck of the woods quotes the exact same price for a foot.
I finally met a friendly type who offered to do just the hole.
Am I nuts to even consider this approach? I do get tremendous discounts on pipe and fittings
Ben
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The term price fixing leaps to mind as every driller in my neck of the woods quotes the exact same price for a foot. I finally met a friendly type who offered to do just the hole. Am I nuts to even consider this approach? I do get tremendous discounts on pipe and fittings Ben
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Ben, I'm assuming that you are thinking of having the well contractor drill the well and you supply the pipe that he installs, right.
You're not thinking of having a well dug without proper casings.
If the first is what the case is then it's up to you to calculate what the bottom line is.
If the contractor's price plus the cost of the pipe you supply is less than the aggregate price of the other contractors then go ahead.
A word of caution.. regardless of who does the work.
A good well is worth it's weight in gold, a bad one isn't worth squat
Get references and check them out!!!!!
*Ben: A little more info would allow a more informative reply. What drilling technique is being proposed (holllow-stem auger, cable-tool, driven casing, mud-rotary, air-rotary, etc.)? What are your soils/rock locally? And how deep and what length of screened casing vs blank casing are being sepc'd? What price per foot did you get quoted?Are you nuts? Depends on the drilling technique and the lithology. A hole left in solid rock would be relatively easier to place casing, sand pack, sanitary seal and grout into (but that 20- to 40-foot mast on the drill rig is really handy to install casing with. If you have caving sands, you're nuts. In many jurisdictions, only licensed drillers (and someimtes registered geologists or professional engineers) can drill AND COMPLETE a well. Almost everywhere someone has to file a well log showing construction details.Many drillers are secretive. Exactly what depth the water is of good quality, how much screened casing is needed, etc, etc. is information that they (and/or their father) have spent a long time learning. But the argicultural bureau/extension usually has good, free info on depth to water and local geology.Most people buy wells on price, not knowing much about them. So it's not surprising that everyone is at the same price. Any higher and they'd get no work. Any lower and they'd leave money on the table. Like four gas stations at the same corner. But the quality of the work, soberity of the workers, and gaurantees can differ a lot. Check into it. You do not want to buy a hole to 80 feet. You want 10-gpm of sustainable flow of good testing water. So don't buy per foot. Buy the results you want. If one guy won't gaurantee the work, point out that he's the expert with the local experience and can charge a bit more to cover contingencies. Or go to someone else. Good Luck, David
*DavidYou make some good points but just out of curiosity re: regional differences; in southern Ontario a "bank" or "mortgage" well (one that qualifies as as asset) only needs 5 Imp. gal/min. flow, that's about 5 1/2 U.S.gal. Twenty years ago or so it was 3 Imp. gal/min. but with the increased use of dishwashwers etc., they bumped it up. Also well drillers around here don't guarantee anything except that they'll show up and drill a hole till they either get water or decide to give up, either way you pay!!!!!Granted they are usually sucessful, although I've seen wells on neighbouring properties vary in depth by 100' that's right. . . 100'difference not 200' apart. Bummer eh?
*Ben,About six years ago I had a well drilled on my place in the North Central Arkansas Ozarks. 383 feet through dirt overlay and limestone. The well required 120 feet of casing. It was an expensive investment but also a bargain. I don't know what you are being quoted a foot but no matter the price you can not do it yourself for less.Well drilling requires expensive specialized equipment. What you pay per foot is driven more by the cost of the equipment than anything else.In your post you refer to "pipe." I am assuming that you are refering to the pipe that suspends the pump and carries the water to the surface and not the casing. If your "friendly" driller has a good local reputation and will get you 10 gpm and properly case and seal the well you should be ok.Now, hanging a pump is part science and part hard work. The science is in knowing how far down to place the pump. Most wells have an artesian effect. The water comes up the well a ways. In my 383 foot well the water rises to 150 feet of surface and the pump is at 250 feet. I have 12 gpm of flow, 10 gpm of pumping capability, and a column of water above the pump 6" in diamiter and 100 feet tall. I should never pump out. I did not figure out where to put the pump, my driller did. If I had fifured it out the pump would be sucking sand and I would be out an additional $100 in pipe and wire. The labor is in hanging the pump and lowering it down. My driller uses a truck mounted hoist. You could do the same with an "A" frame and block and tackle. It takes my driller 30 minutes and if he drops it he can get it out. It will take you most of a day and if you drop it you will most likely have to call a driller or pump man for help. I think you should talk to your driller to see what he will charge if you provide materials. May be willing to deal.It is not unusual for well drillers to split the job - drilling and casing on one bid and installing the pump later. This is because banks want a proven well before they will approve a building loan. We drilled our well six months before we installed the pump. No problem.Well drillers usually sell pumps. Most will mark the price down as part of a package deal. Check your deal several ways to ensure that your savings on pipe is not eaten up by a higher price for the pump. I got lucky and found a near new 3/4 horse pump and tank at a yard sale for $275.00. Used pumps are risky, particularly older pumps, but at that price I could not lose. It has been down the well for 5 years now and has not missed a beat. My driller put it down for $100.00 and materials. Make no mistake. Well drillers make money on the materials they sell you. But, unless you have a special connection, their "retail" is as good as anything you can get at the farm store. Remember, even if you can save big on pipe and fittings you will need wire, a pump, a tank, and controls. Again, I recommend you get the job priced several ways.My driller told me something I would like to pass on. In the country people like to lie about their wells. Or put another way, they like to brag about them. Or, since everyone knows the going rate per foot, no one wants to admit how much they paid to get water, even indirectly. So, they always "hit" shallow and have more gpm of flow than anyone else in the coffee shop. Only the well driller knows for sure. It is all worth it when you take that first shower.StevePS My driller has the best baseball caps around and I get a new one from him every year. But, ya gotta ask!
*I've found well-drillers to be rather good folk. I recall letting the jet associated with my garden irrigation system (I pump from the adjacent river) freeze, and hence, be renderred non-functional. So, I stopped by the local driller to see if I score a new jet. Came away, not only with a the jet, but also a used submersible pump...all for free. Pump was labelled "bent shaft" but just how important was reliability for an irrigation system. I didn't know anything about the applicability of a submersible for "river pumping" but the driller said "just hookup the electrical, the piping, add a switch and throw it in the river." The thang has worked gang-busters (30 gpm) for the last six years....filled neighbors' swimming pools, "flooded" my lawn during dry spells, etc. For the skating rink, I use the 150 gpm) sump pump...that one cost me...$5 at a tag sale.Brian
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David
Thanks for your insite...Ironically, I too, am in Southern Ontario, specifically Schomberg (maybe you can send me some names of reputable drillers). As far as "mortgage" wells go, I am not in the least concerned. I simple wish to wash, rinse, shower and flush without the current prayer bit. Around here $25/ft and 280 feet seems to be the norm....C'est la vie (a little something our yankee friends will rush to their dictionaries over thinking it's some secret well driller code word)
Tanks again
Ben
*DavidRegrettably I am a bit of a neophyte as far as well drilling goes. Here is my understanding of it:I guy shows up with a drilling rig, drills for a while and then drops down a length of 6 inch pipe. He then drills again for a while and drops down another length of pipe and welds the two together etc. etc..At some point in this process he hits a reasonable, flowing water supply ie: something that can sustain enough head to provide me with my required flow rate.That's it, Thats all I know... My point was more, that I get really good discounts on pipe and fittings, whether it be 6" black or tubing or what have you.I was very interested in your comments about getting guarantees from drillers; can you be a bit more specific ie: is it fair to say "get me x gallons of tested potable water at y $/ft or I don't pay (given your comments about the agricultural bureau's info re: water depths)Is it fair to say to the driller "you know the area and conditions therefore I will pay you to those depths after-which you continue, at no further charge to me, to accomplish my desired result" It's not a question of being stingy more, a concern about getting into an expense that could spiral at a factorial rate. By the way, in this part of the world, it is $25/ft and an estimated 280 ft downThanks againBenand P.S. Thanks for all of the terminology re: types of drilling rigs. I will use that to seem somewhat more informed
*Ben, something you said makes me believe that you have an already existing well that produces too little water. If so, this solution may work for you.I have what I call a wimpy well, it produces good water, but not enough to flush a lot, or take long showers, or wash clothes. This summer, the situation got worse due to drought (north west arkansas.) I installed double pumping system. The submersible in the well pumps until the water goes down and pump is pumping nothing, an overload-underload device detects this, shuts off the pump for 90 minutes (the time is adjustable) so the well can recharge. then turns it on again. the water is pumped into a buried holding tank (concrete septic tank, fiberglass tank, or in my case, a plastic 1500 gal tank partially buried.) The captive air tank is fed by another pump, not submersible, located in the pump house. This pump gets it water from the holding tank. The holding tank has the advantages of 1) you can see how much water you have and plan your water usage and 2) you can haul water to it, and fill it.It works so well, this month I am plumbing for a washer-dryer for the house. My wife is very impressed (and bought me a portable planer for xmas!)Your problem may be that your well can't produce water quick enough, not that it doesn't have enough water.
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Ben,
Since you get such a "good discount on piping and fittings" have you ever considered going into the business of selling pipe to the drillers in your area? Sounds as tho they must be looking for additional middleman in the chain.
Brian
*It may sound crazy but find a water witch and have the area dowsed. It may not save depth but a good witch will get you better flows. I know, I know, I was a skeptic too! It's magic! Lee
*In my locale (Northeast US) drillers install 6" casing until they get into bedrock. From then on out, no casing is required. "Drilled" wells tend to go deeper to get the same flow as "pounded" wells due to the drilling gumming up the rock fractures with sediment. There does seem to be a bit of style involved in knowing how deeply to set the pump. Don't know if it's pure BS, but my driller says it's dependent on how the slurry looks that he pumps out. He has drilled several wells in the same general nieghborhood, all to roughly the same depth, and then set the pumps at different depths depending on how it "looks". Here the rate is $6 USD per foot, casing extra. Much less then your $25. The remainder of the setup (pump to tank and all associated wire/hose/tubing) runs $1300-2500. Trenching for the supply pipe from well to house is extra.Water is easily available here in the 175-250 foot depth at 15-20 gpm. I do have a buddy in Georgia who wisely secured a fixed-price contract for his well. Good thing, as the first went to 910' and was DRY. For the second, the driller brought in a dowser. He got a little over 10gpm at 550'. I've been under the impression that a pounded well is of better quality than a drilled well. Not sure, though, it's just what I've been told.Once the well is drilled and the pump set, the pump is usually run continuously when someone is on-site. It helps to flush sediment, ensure the water level/supply is secure, and uncover any problems ASAP.
*Sounds like lots of good advice here on wells, so here goes a question. Mom-in-law is going to buy land on the edge of the genesee river valley. 32 acres, so plenty of places to drill. The wells are basically slow (2 gpm), so the pumped storage systems (pump, tank, pump) seem the way to go. The land generally grades (some places rather steeply) northeast. I have noticed two spots on this property that have cattails (the water loving weed) for no apparent reason. My guess was springs, a few others say the cattails are the way to tell. I am familiar with developing the springs with sand bottom tanks. my plan was then to run the two springs to a cistern (the storage) for pumping into the house. The question - Is it possible to know whether this is indeed a spring, or perhaps the end of a shallow aquifer running down the hill? Anyone know the legalities of using a shallow aquifer like a spring? (the aquifer is after all near-surface runoff) -Rob
*Many of the folks near our home in the northern Adirondacks have shallow wells. We have shallow soils, often less than 20 feet to solid granitic rock. So most of these shallow wells are in the 20 to 70 ft depths. I asked the building inspector about shallow wells, and he said that he had no issues with them, but that if the house is sold, that it may not qualify as a water source. (Our building inspector is also the board of health inspector - he oks septics).I chose to drill a deep well as shallow wells can dry up or flow poorly in late summer.But as I said, many folks here have them, and a friend with a large tracked excavator has dug several of them with good success. The cattails are indeed a good sign, I hit water at 12' depth at a similar 'wet spot' on our property while digging a drainage ditch for a road. The water actually burbled out - too bad it was 2kft from the house...Another story - another neighbor had a great shallow well dug out by an excavator - 10-20gph, he lined it with a cement cylinder ~6ft in diameter and 10 ft deep (a culvert or something?). He was to be married to the woman he built the house with. Three days before the wedding the shallow well nearly dried up - just 6-12" of water on the bottom. His wife-to-be was in a panic, the wedding was at the house, with loads of guests, some staying for a while. A quick phone call brought a friend from the fire department with the tank truck and a couple thousand gallons of water on the day of the wedding. He said that he would just pump the water into the well and it should last for a couple of days. To everyone's astonishment, the water disappeared as fast as it could be pumped. Some-me-bitch was the response, and he went to fill the truck again at the river, tried again, and it disappeared just as quickly the second time as well! That's when I decided to go for a deep well.
*Richard, the subsurface around the bottom of your well is not like a tank with a finite volume. Your description leads me to believe that the bottom of your well is in the unsaturated zone, not under the water table. Not many places have a year-round water table shallower than 10 feet, and those that do are probably questionable building sites. Keep in mind that the water table level fluctuates seasonally, and may even drop a bit lower every year as more water is withdrawn through wells in your neighborhood.This unsaturated zone is hydraulically connected to a seemingly infinite volume of pore space between the grains of sand, silt and rock that make up the soil. This volume spreads out laterally and vertically for great distances until a WATER SOURCE is encountered, such as a river or lake.Thus, you could have pumped a hundred million gallons of water down the well and it would still eventually "go away" by spreading out. Thanks to gravity, the water always tries to move downward, below the well bottom, until it hits an impermeable surface, such as bedrock, clay, or glacial till, or until it reaches the water table.In your situation, it would have been better to rent a tank of potable water, and keep the water in the tank! I hope the wedding went OK otherwise.
*Ben, the bookstore is where you need to be "Wells & Septic Systems" by Max & Charlotte Alth 2nd edition. Publisher Tab books ISBN 0-8306-2137-7 large soft cover with just about all your questions answered. I bought it after buying land in Utah (Adios California!) & found it to be very clear as to what is going on with the drilling process & the geology of ground water. Also found a tremendous amount of info on the web from State of Utah sites. All wells are listed with drilling info & more facts than I can believe. Well drillers license info & what type of equipment they have. Maybe your state has a similar site? Now to figure out how the witching works.BTW, recent (2 years) well prices in Utah $26 foot.
*Chris, your absolutely right. Fortunately it was a neighbor, not I, that this happened to. But he had great water before, then it dried up, even through the following year.One thought is that the near surface water flows much like a braided river - sediment builds up in one channel, then the flow shifts to another channel that has less resistance. In this case perhaps the surface water flow shifted to another area, then the water that was poured in just flowed along the dry channel as you described.The reason that a tank wasn't rented was that the fire dept. fellow offered to bring the truck over for free, but he had to bring it right back in case there was a fire. There was lots of bottled water, but no toilets - a porta-john was brought in...
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Lee/Ben,
I have never been a sceptic about the truth of "witching" a well, just as to wether or not I could do it, as had both of my grandfathers, and one great grandfather. My father, however, is completely unable to witch a well at all. I believe that it has much to do with our body composition, since we are basically composed of electricity and water. Maybe a magnetic effect?
While preparing to have my well drilled last year, the driller told me to mark the spot. I talked about it with a friend who was helping excavate, and he said I could witch it. So we tried it out: we took to arm length pcs. of heavy grounding copper (#10), and bent them into "L" shapes. I then took one in each hand (fairly firm), and began walking in the general direction in which I desired to place my well.
The rods began to turn slightly at first and then, as I criss crossed the area, they crossed sharply, even hitting me in the stomach. They definitely pointed towards the water. To test (I was skeptical), I approache dmy neighbors well. As I neared the well, the rods began to twitch, and sharply crossed, directly over the head.
When I excitedly told my driller (a very nice guy, by the way, family operation), he replied that they didn't put much stock in it. At any rate, I told him, I wanted to see how it proved out. So I got the local well logs, which showed most wells at 85' to 125'. I then placed a stake at the point where 2 of my best strikes crossed. I then gave my driller the instructions to drill til 80' or he hits water, either way, get me off the dozer.
They came and got me at 60'. I don't know if I converted them, but I'll never drill again without witching first. I let them push down to 80', since we seemed to be sitting at the top of a pool where 2 under ground streams met. I also trusted their experience in setting the well, however, I took on the job of running the 1" copper and buriable line. I also excavated for the pitless. These were well within my range of experience, tho.
When it was all tested and recorded, the well was indeed Artesian in nature (70' of static pressure) and pushed out a comfy, clean 13gpm. (Yes, 13 gallons per minute, not hour.)
I believe the going rate was around $25/ft. here, as well. This included setting the pump. I saved by doing the excavating, copper and installing the pressure tank. Water is definitely MORE valuable than gold!
The drillers are definitely worth their money, but their reputations do vary quite a bit. Be there while it is being done, and if you can find a good dowser, it might save you a few dry holes (my neighbor had 3 dry holes until he had it dowsed. They hit water within 50' of 2 of the holes.)
Maybe check with local building contractors or realtors or banks to see who they find reliable? It seems most of this G.C. stuff is pretty much leg-work. Doing the extra checking has saved me thousands as well as potential headaches.
Best of luck,
Eric
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The term price fixing leaps to mind as every driller in my neck of the woods quotes the exact same price for a foot.
I finally met a friendly type who offered to do just the hole.
Am I nuts to even consider this approach? I do get tremendous discounts on pipe and fittings
Ben