Went on a Green Homes Tour
madmadscientist
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
Hello All,
This past Sunday the wife and I went on a local green homes tour put on by the Green Point Rating people. I’d like to give you my impressions of what I saw.
- All the houses were owned by wealthy folks…this does support the idea that green building and green remodeling are currently the domain of the rich who need something else to brag about. And brag they did, standing in their green mini mansions with their archy, designer, green consultant blah blah blah…
- These kind of green home tours are just thinly disguised adds for the tradespeople involved…no one wanted to talk to me after they realized I wasn’t going to hire them.
- Green kitchen countertops get a lot more attention than spray foam insulation.
- All the houses were heated with radiant heating.
- All the houses had tankless water heaters.
- Almost all the houses had PV.
- Almost all the houses had solar hot water.
- A lot of them had rain catchment systems….what the heck is 50gal of rain water going to do for you in a long dry CA summer?
- Tearing down a house and re-using 30% of the wood in the new way huger house should not be considered ‘green’.
It wasn’t totally a waste of time-I got to talk to a lot of folks that have been living with radiant heating and loving it. Several of the systems were installed sub-optimally but the owners raved about them…guess living in a mild climate has its advantages. I got a couple cool ideas.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Replies
IMO, much of the green movement is a feel good thing, token gestures so people don't have to feel so guilty about their consumptive lifestyles. It's just like recycling those tin cans. Don't get me wrong, recycling is a great thing. But how much difference does it make in the big picture? Not much. It's a feel good thing.
You want to build green, get yourself an old house in a town and fix it up. Insulate the heck out of it. That'll have way more impact than countertops made of recycled paper.
"You want to build green, get yourself an old house in a town and fix it up. Insulate the heck out of it. That'll have way more impact than countertops made of recycled paper."What do you think that he is doing?http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"You want to build green, get yourself an old house in a town and fix it up. Insulate the heck out of it. That'll have way more impact than countertops made of recycled paper."I am moving into the green building (or I should say renovation) world and your point is an excellent point. Fix up and redo the houses that exist.
I agree somewhat with you about the green movement, but I would encourage you to get more informed on it and find out about the impact that it's starting to have and what its potential is.Of course recycling has an impact. It makes a big difference.Unfortunately the word Green is a trip word for many and causes them to delve into the pol-jive. That's usually a knee jerk reaction because they know nothing about the subject.
Both recycling and the green building movement have good aspects. Again, I recycle pretty religiously, because it's the right thing to do. But it isn't going to save the planet. I live in a town that is a transhipment port for iron ore, and I see loaded 1000 foot ore boats going by every day. Makes driving around in a big old diesel truck picking up peoples cans seem kind of silly. (And landfills are not going to destroy the planet. They are more of political problem--there is plenty of space.)The real point I was attempting to make is that "Green" is mostly driven by a desire to assuage guilt for our lavish lifestyles. We're looking for a pain free way to save the planet and there ain't no such thing.
"The real point I was attempting to make is that "Green" is mostly driven by a desire to assuage guilt for our lavish lifestyles."You make some points but I just can't agree with you on that. There are a lot of earnest good people who are very serious about changing the way we live, and it has nothing to do with the assuasion of guilt. The way we live has to change, they realize it and they want others to understand why and how we best can do it.Look, it has to start somewhere, and all the naysayers and the ones who say it's silly and worthless will always be there pointing fingers and jeering at those who want to effectively put into action necessary changes. It's always been that way, there will always be these two groups of people, those who are 'progressives' and want to improve and try to change and move ahead,and those who veer away from change and feel that things are just fine and the status quo should remain as long as their corner of the world is relatively unaffected. That's not to say that the status quo is bad all the time. Certainly not. Big business and the big polluters don't want it that's for sure, and for good reason. It all boils down to money, the cost. Is it worth it in the long run to make the effort to do X which will have a huge cost start up, or just continue doing Y which still pollutes and take whatever $ they would save by not doing X and til a little of it into a "green" fronted effort to show that they're doing their part. Hard hearted folks with bajillions at stake don't budge so easily. Understandable to some. It's one of the dark sides of capitalism. Then there's us. The fat lifestyles we've gotten so used to living are going to be very very hard for some to curtail, and so yes, enter Madison Avenue. Let the little lies about how "this soap, or this bubblegum will change the planet" begin, and let the hard uncomfortable facts fester away in a vacant lot somewhere.It does seem silly sometimes to do the little things I know, and yeah, it does seem like a David & Goliath scene when you see the huge barges dumping, and the giant costly fact of present day industrial waste, but so what? Like you, I know it's the right thing to do. And I haven't heard anyone in the green movement ever say that this change is going to be pain free. In fact, they preach the opposite and so do I.
Let me stir the pot a little. I am working on my house to make it more green. The reason is greed. My utility bills were skyrocketing. The issue I have is when I need to employ a trade to accomplish a task that I can't do myself they speak only plumber, electrician, HVAC, ect. I use to build for a number of years so I can deal with that. The problem is they don't speak green plumber, green electrician, green HVAC. Because I am trying to get the most for my dollar I have to research all options before going to that trade. I will say I have obtained a number of good ideas from this site. Most of these guy's are quality craftsmen that I have known for years. The issue I assume is that they are not asked to preform their trade in such a way as to save their customers energy dollars. Most of their customers only want the problem fixed the cheapest way they can at that moment.
So I guess if some rich guy wants to spend his money educating the trades in green ways to accomplish their tasks, I can't complain. The reason is I someday down the road I will get the benefit of his money when I need that person to do a similar task for me.
Good points. Whenever anything is getting started, it just takes a whole lot of learning and relearning, but as an earlier poster said,I think that even though it's in its infancy, green will be here to stay.
Jer, I think we mostly agree. To sharpen my statement a bit, what I really mean to say is that the "mainstreaming" of green is mostly about assuaging guilt. I guess where I really start getting crabby is when the business community seizes on "green" and starts using it as a marketing tool. Good God, how can you even say "green" and "5000 square foot new house" in the same sentence? But yeah, I take your point. There are good people doing good things, and lets hope that it's pioneering work that we will use when the going gets really tough.Fact is, I've been "green" most of my adult life, and I'm nearly fifty. But when I look at where are culture in those years it's pretty sad. We've pretty much been going in the wrong direction. Twenty, thirty years ago environmentalism was pretty hot--biodiversity was a huge issue. Hardly hear about that anymore, yet we are losing it as fast or faster than ever. Seems sometimes like popular culture just doesn't have the attention span to solve anything. I've always felt that real change isn't going to come until we get some real hard knocks. Even a harder knock than $4.00 a gallon gasoline.
"I've always felt that real change isn't going to come until we get some real hard knocks."
Yeah, in the meantime we just have to "be the change we'd like to see" (Ghandi, I think).
"Jer, I think we mostly agree. "Reading what you just posted, I would have to agree.I too get frosted at the bandwagon mentality, it seems that there is always a new something promising to be the next great thing and for a whole pile of ka-ching ka-ching, there's much ado about nothing. And it is a sad state of affairs we've come to.
I don't know....I would guess greed to be the cause as to why. We certainly don't seem to look at things in a long term way anymore.
Look, it has to start somewhere, and all the naysayers and the ones who say it's silly and worthless will always be there pointing fingers and jeering at those who want to effectively put into action necessary changes.
Just look at curbside recycling. How many thousands or millions of tons per year gets recycled from that? All because you and me drop some of our stuff in that little plastic box. But multiply that by 50 million households and it starts to really add up.
So maybe me putting my aluminum can from lunch in the recycle bin doesn't add up to a hill of bean, but if enough of us do it, it will.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Just look at curbside recycling. How many thousands or millions of tons per year gets recycled from that? All because you and me drop some of our stuff in that little plastic box. But multiply that by 50 million households and it starts to really add up.
Actaully around here it was hard to get people to recycle until it became in their own best interests. The garbage company charges by the size of the trash bin not the size of the recycling containers. So the more you recycle the smaller your trash bin is.
Man I can remember being a 10yr old kid having to take the trash out to the curb. 3-4 big metal trashcans packed full every week... Now with just two of us we barely fill one small kitchen trashcan a week.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Man I can remember being a 10yr old kid having to take the trash out to the curb. 3-4 big metal trashcans packed full every week... Now with just two of us we barely fill one small kitchen trashcan a week.
Yeah, when we were growing up, the push was to "not litter". Indian crying at all the garbage strewn across the countryside...
jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
"But how much difference does it make in the big picture? Not much. It's a feel good thing."It does make a big difference. Only people are uneducated on why it is important to participate. Scrap aluminum is going for $0.60/lb., copper is over $3.00/lb. and steel is at over $200.00/ton. If the price of these metals are any indication of their value it is definitely worth the effort to be collecting the stuff.
How long until we are going through our landfills trying to recover what has already been dumped?
They already do that in a lot of third world nations. Did you ever see the recent photo of Hatians rummaging through the landfill looking for food?
That's always been one of the things that bothered me about rich "green" people. A family of 4 living in a 4000 sq.ft. green home...give me a break! If you really want to be green, start by reducing your consumption of products and square footage.
"...this does support the idea that green building and green remodeling are currently the domain of the rich who need something else to brag about."
Well, at least a few green projects are actually getting done, regardless of WHY. The first automobiles were owned by wealthy people, right? The first private homes?
Believe me, I take issue with the way "green building" gets tossed around these days, but it sounds from your post that these homes did, in fact, have at least SOME green aspects to them.
"...at least a few green projects are actually getting done..."well, maybe - - I remember a great drawing from the '70's, I think it was in one of Steve Baers' books - a wind generator running a clothes dryer - "there's enough for everyone"
thats sweet, i gotta get me one of them.
it occurs to me with the price of energy there will be a lot more folks in rural areas burning wood for heat this winter, as well as using the old solar dryer.
Not me, I'm waiting for the nuclear powered clothes dryer! Whooeee! Dries them clothes right now, kills all the germs and they glow in the dark! (Don't dry night gowns in them--keeps you awake.)
I remember a great drawing from the '70's, I think it was in one of Steve Baers' books - a wind generator running a clothes dryer -
Mom often uses a wind source clothes dryer....
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(web photo)jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
that being exactly the point...."there's enough for everyone"
Good posts here and I really want to say more, but for now enjoy this real news flash from Long Island:SOUTHAMPTON, N.Y. -- Residents of Southampton who prefer to let their clothes dry in the Long Island breeze will no longer be risking six months in jail or a $1,000 fine.
The Southampton town board lifted its ban on outdoor clotheslines this week.
The ban was instituted six years ago when some homeowners complained that laundry hung on the lines was making the upscale Hamptons town look shabby.DW hangs laundry out often. In our backyard, in view of the LI Sound. Kids play lacrosse in the front yard. Ha. We use the electric dryer too.Oh, we have never owned a 'new house'. Buy 'em 'n fix 'em.
I agree with what you said--it's a start and right now it seems that only the rich can afford some of the "green" things (like photovoltaics). But they may provide a market and then prices will go down. The visible and flashy things (that allow "bragging rights") will also lead the way, but you need such things to capture the imagination. Sort of the idea that thinking grand and having big dreams will be more attractive than things like drying your laundry on clothelines instead of in a 50 billion BTU electric dryer or riding a bike instead of driving an SUV.
Yes they did have some honest green features its just unfortunate that at least around here only the wealthy are doing it...
From personal experience I know that getting a local radiant heating expert to do any work for you is like twice as expensive as the same work on the east cost...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I recently met with a client who wanted to show me the plans for his "green" house. I kid you not, this thing was 12,000 sf with at least 6 fireplaces (family of 6). Half the roof was glass. His interpretation of green is obviously different from the rest of the world.
Maybe you could gently steer him towards more truly green things. Lots of people don't know any better and have to be directed by others who do. Look at all the people who don't do something as simple as orienting their houses to receive benefit from solar heat gain in winter. They just buy what looks good and what the builder told them was good. Still see houses with huge picture windows facing the street, even if the street is on the north or west.
I designed a house once for some people (an oil man, such as they are in Michigan) and he insisted on huge expanses of glass on the north of the house. I told him that would lose a lot of heat in winter and he said, "I don't care--see that oil well out there?--I own it."
Edited 6/4/2008 8:00 am ET by Danno
Yep, this castle has mountain views to the north west. Guess which direction the big windows face. Unfortunately, for many, it's all about views and appearances.
Ok - hold up. You do have a point with "What difference does it make in the big picture". NOTHING makes a difference in the big picture. The universe is indifferent to our ridiculous excuse for a civilization. Now, for those of you who aren't into the purple coolaid induced spaceship ride, here's what you need to do.
"Green", parts of it, is a fad. HOWEVER, there are those of us out here that are trying to make a difference.
You are right, the impression, now, is that green is only for the wealthy. You can change that by doing your research as a builder and learn how green works and WHY it works. The reason it's so expensive is b/c you have to pay someone with half a brain cell that knows more than JUST his/her trade. Electrical, HVAC, Plumbing, Framing, Roofing, Insulating. They are not JUST separate components of a house build. These systems have to be thought out and designed to work TOGETHER and BETTER TOGETHER than they ever did before. This requires ingenuity. Unfortunately the lack of a more general green movement is attributed to North Americas distinct lack of intellect and morals.
The "Why work for it when you can just buy it" attitude is selfish and destructive and it's fed, in whole, by DOLLARS. Since most builders won't even blink when they learn they can charge a 200% premium on green products for no good reason, there's not much hope for those products to grow in the market. Hence the "green" homes will continue to be built for the wealthy.
I'm not sure what you found wrong with utilizing solar hot water. It's a technology that is SIMPLE, inexpensive and a great step (though usually not a full solution) to energy independence.
Re-using ANY material is fantastic. Especially materials on site. Again, this is where creativity REALLY comes into play. When you walk into a "green" house and folks are talking about their countertop that was made of shredded million dollar bills, step up to the plate and turn the conversation. Put them on the spot to think and talk about more of their "green"-ness. Ask them WHY they didn't use more of the reyclable materials on their site. Make the rest of the folks in the room uncomfortable about splurging on their non-sustainable products and praise their choices of green products. And brag about the times that YOU reused things in your projects. Make sustainability a key player in your projects "features".
I hope you take your points to task in your own projects. Eliminate the use for pricey "green consultants" by encouraging your clients and your subs to do a little thinking.
It's all about spreading the word and being louder as a "insulation is cool" crowd then the "my countertop is green but I'm the only one in the tri-state area that can afford it" crowd.
We are beginning the "weed out process" with green products. It's going to be a long road and the familiar is going to have to be left behind. Those of you with common sense need to help the rest of us sort out the #### from the goodies.
Having lived and built through the seventies and the solar/energy efficient boom I agree. "Green " has become a sales buzzword, just like solar was back then. this creates a problem IMO for those who actually try to understand it and build it right. For those to whom it is a buzzword it is nothing more than another sales angle for them to make more money, the actual lifestyle means little. But those people who sell using it also are responsible for a huge number of people being exposed to concepts they otherwise may never have seen nor heard. Some good comes out of that . I used to tell passive solar clients they were going to have to learn to live "with" their house not , not "in" their house
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
No I think it does make a difference to build green in the long view. If done halfway right that house will use considerably less resources over its lifetime which is what we need to have happen.
I've got no prob with SHW I like it lots-that coupled with radiant heating is how I'm going in my own home.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Okay to some extent I agree that "Green" has become a buzzword in this country when it comes to building. And I think part of the reason is that our applied technology when it comes to building has been lagging behind the rest of the world for so long. ANd we are finally catching up to what other countries have been doing for a long time. Tankless water heaters, radiant heat, rainwater systems, etc have been in use around the globe for decades and now that this country is seeing higher energy prices, scarcer water supplies, high labor costs for construction etc. We have been actually forced into reevaluating our current methods of doing things and try alternatives.
And while it may appear that these items are trendy, faddish and pricey I think they will become common and come down in price as time goes on. Remember the first VCR? I think the Betamax was something like $1000.00 in 1977. Now you couldn't give one away. Same thing with flat panel televisions. 6 years ago I walked into Costco and they had a 42" Plasma for $10,000.00. Now one could probably be had for less than $1500.00.
my dad bought one of those beta video players, in just a few years you couldn't even get videos for it.
i hope they are real collectors items someday, i might just inherit it, and if i do it will be my most valuable inheritence.
Probably that along with the 12" laserdic player that Magnavox came out with.
Yep I agree with that. The wealthy are the trendsetters in this case and they can afford all the green bells and whistles. I hope that it does drive the price down and weed out the B.S. products.
I've got a good buddy who is a super-high-end archy. He does all his work in one neighborhood of S.F. One super rich person buys a mansion and the first thing they want to do is gut it to the studs and completely redo it in their own way....The houses change hands every 5 years....such a waste...
Also once contractors get more aquanted with the tech it should become more SOP and be faster and cheaper.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"The houses change hands every 5 years....such a waste..." That really is wasteful. But I guess if the price of oil continues to climb so will the price of building products that utilize it in the manufacture and delivery . So will the price of labor increase. Perhaps people will pause and think before total replacement.
You mention architects often. As an architect myself and concerned about resource depletion I think its pretty unconscionable for an architect to steer clients in this never ending cycle of gut and rebuild rather than working with what is there.
Mad
We had a group of folks in the Dallas/FT Worth area that specializing in green homes for the masses. They touted a new green home could be built for around 10% more than the cookie cutter homes. I gather they went out of business.
If I was having a new stick built home built I would use spray foam, sips, or ICF. I would love to have in-floor heat and geo-thermal AC.
In reality I would love to have a monolithic dome built. Very energy efficient and near maintenance free. Only thing is most people don't like the looks of the dome.
Just my 2 cents ...
At PCBC last year they had a panel of green builders. They made similar claims and they claimed business was booming. That in a down market their slightly more expensive houses were selling first!
I hope that's true...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
If ya wanna see "green" building go to Luka's place. Everything he can garner that is someone else's discard he is using.
Agree with most that the 'green' being touted is a markup over normal practices, to me green is the dollar, esp when using recycled which should be less expensie than the 'touted' cr&p for the 'rich'.
We renovated and old house, adding to it so that it would continue to suit our family's needs. We managed to double the livable floor space while dropping the heating bills 20% on an equal degree-days basis. And a lot of the credit for making that possible lies with this forum- it's been a great source of information and alternative viewpoints.
I feel no guilt adding the space we needed to make our living more comfortable. I have no less right to the world's resources than anyone else does. But I feel that I have a responsibility not to waste these resources more than necessary, even if that means I have to kick in more up-front money to make sure that things are done right.
Yes, hypocrisy stinks. But at least the folks who have spent their capital to try to reduce their operating costs have done more for the good of us all than those who simply spend the extra money on more square footage.
Ultimately, we waste because we can afford it. And we can afford to waste because we are not paying the full and fair cost for the things we consume- particularly the energy we consume. The reason is that there's no tipping fee for dumping sh*t into the atmosphere. Because of this, we each pay some of the cost of the consumption of others, which makes their consumption OUR business.
Fix the underlying economics, and much of the hypocrisy goes away. It will also be clearer which alternatives are the most sensible: simple economic analysis will tell. Right now, the economics are so distorted that there's no way to be sure what's a green option and what's a crock of cr*p. Do PV cells use more energy to make than they save during their lifetime? Right now, who knows? Pay the full cost of energy and eliminate the subsidies, and it will become clear one way or the other.
The increase in oil and other commodity prices has been a wake-up call. Things are changing, and energy conservation is becoming mainstream. But even at current or expected future oil prices, the economics are still screwed up by the lack of an atmospheric tipping fee. When electricity from coal is vastly cheaper than electricity from wind, that's a clear indication that our energy economics are totally screwed.
It's also important to do the economic analysis the right way. If I divert a ton of recyclables from the landfill, I sell the materials for $30 but it costs $50 to collect it, some people would say that the recycling program is costing me $20 per ton- and they'd be wrong. They forgot about the $70/ton landfill tipping fee that I'm saving. Actually the program is saving me $50/ton, along with all the intangible benefits of all those materials which will no longer need to be mined and processed. That these things happen in remote places rather than next door (so we can see the smokestacks and the tailings ponds) is part of the problem as well.
Keep talking. I hear the ring of truth.
I agree.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The increase in oil and other commodity prices has been a wake-up call. Things are changing, and energy conservation is becoming mainstream.
I suspect the oil price commodity piracy is indirectly linked to having an oil man in the oval office. They know they can get away with it. I wouldn't be surprised if it dropped $1-2/gal once Bush is gone, but until he is, they will be looting as much as possible.
But as much as I dislike the high oil prices, I think they help us. They make people more likely to buy fuel efficient vehicles. They increase interest in alternative energy and reducing consumption.jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA