Wet basement solution. Criticism please
Potential client with very wet basement
Their bungalow basement was excavated at least 2 1/2′ too deep 40 odd years ago.
He says he wears out 3 sump pumps a year. Maybe 1 month of the year without a constant stream into the two sump pits.
He wants no external excavation and raising the house 3 feet and basement floor level was vetoed.
So..
How about interior application of Delta MS on full height of the concrete block wall allowing drainage to the existing channel around the perimeter that drains to sumps in opposite corners of the basement.
Then cover the entire basement floor with Delta MS 1 1/2″ of Styrofoam and the T&G spruce ply.
Fortunately they do not want the basement as extra living space, just utilities, laundry and minor storage.
Suggestions, better ideas, theory
Thanks
s.
Replies
where is all this water coming from is my first question. Where do the gutters drain too & are you sure they are working correctly? Does the yard slope to the foundation? HOw close are the neighbors? could they be contributing to the issue? where does the water go when it is pumped out?
"this dog may be old but he ain't cold. And he still knows how to bury a bone."
Lattimore
http://www.rehmodeling.com
High water table.
The house was built next to/in the swamp/wetland.
Sump pumped out to municipal storm sewers.
Fairly flat lot with marginal slope away from house with good working downspout extensions.
Fundamentally flawed location. I observed that he was attempting to drain the wetland through his basement.
without external excavation why even bother...
bandaids only last for so long and in the long run there's liable to more issuse that need to be delt with...
bite the bullet and dig the perimeter...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I do not disagree with you.
But he said no digging outside!
Also when in the basement the cracks in the centre of the floor run with water so the external fix may not solve the very wet floor.
At the time of construction it must have been like pouring footings in a half full swimming pool.
defer that mess to somebody else and go about yur business....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I told him there was only one real solution and that was to raise the house 3'.
Promised I would give it some thought.
Dead bodies always possible but did not seem the type, anyway it is so wet there they might float out of the ground like New Orleans.
so he wants bandaids applied so that he can improve the basement...
lots of luck...
so raise the the house or turn it into a boat...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
You need not worry, lots of bandaids have been tried.
A veritable who's who of waterproofing products so far.
Given the circumstances and the restrictions placed on you by the owner it seems quite reasonable. I've had good luck with Xypex, but I imagine it's already been tried. As long as they are realistic about the results, I can't think of any other better solution.
I think that for the owner the objective is more water management rather than total solutions.
Similar products to Delta MS are used on the inside of tunnels and parking garages on bedrock to manage the water flowing out of the earth and it seems the plausible system to attempt at the moment.
If he's wearing out sump pumps, ya might want to think about why.It might be because of a small sump pit. That would cause the pump to cycle on and off too frequently. A bigger pit would make for longer cycles.Also - They make sump pumps with MUCH larger capacity than the typical ones you get at big box stores. A bit of searching online should turn up some options. .But - As others have said - Dealing with things outside first would definitely be better if you can talk him into it.
If you don't take care of your customer, someone else will.
He doesn't seem particularly perturbed by the pumps at the moment and did not ask for suggestions on that part of the issue.
He does have a venturi pump powered by water main pressure in the event of pump/electrical failures.
Since he is limiting what you can do and seems to accept the pumps, suggest a somewhat deeper pit and sand screen. Then use a sewage ejector pump. It is much more durable and will better tolerate the sand that is wearing out the cheap ones. But, that said a bigger sump will help by reducing cycling.
I would also be concerned about subsidance from all the sand that is probably being pumped.
Edited 8/5/2009 8:14 pm ET by jimcco
and where is all that sand coming from and what is the limitations on voids (size/quanity)...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Not sure if it is sand wearing out pumps probably brushes and cheap motors.
Good point about subsidence but no sign of structural foundation problems.
Well as someone who has *fixed* a hopelessly wet basement (mine) I'd have to say:- the house is built on a location that virtually interrupts a spring (based on description) - believe it or not I had a client with just such a condition
- take up the slab, excavate somewhat if possible - 4" great
- install underdrains to TWO new oversize sump pits (not the prefab plastic), like maybe 20 gallon capacity
- tie the underdrains (3" perf pipe in filter socks, perfs facing down) into the sump pits
- put Zoeller effluent pumps http://zoellerpumps.com/ProductByCategory.aspx?CategoryID=3 (2" dia. discharge) in both pits, with 2" NPT out - see THIS model - http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetdepot/ProductDetail.asp?Product=28735&AffiliateID=Become or similar - BTW they DO make 2" check valves
- take the discharge pipe well away - if it's into the storms and legal (illegal here) there - fine
- 8 mil poly vapor barrier
- new 4" drainage course (3/4" clean) if you could excavate
- new 4" slab at F'c = 4,000 psi with BOTH fibermesh and 6 x 6 1.4x1.4 WWF
- unless he has a generator he needs at least one backup pump (maybe 2) - I recommend: http://www.basementwatchdog.com/basement_watchdog_bigdog.htm
View Image
Deal with the walls however you want - Thoroseal, Seal-O-Flex etc. - use a perimeter trough connected to the sump. You have to deal with the hydrostatic pressure under the slab as the primary problem. Think about it - if you're on a sinking boat do you (1) bail and pump the bilges or (2) start painting the hull??
Jeff
Edited 8/5/2009 9:17 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
You make a good point about the hydrostatic pressure under the slab and your solution would certainly solve the floor issue.
I think the best solution is to lift the place up to where it should have been, lay 3 or 4 courses of block, fill up the hole and pour new floor above the high water mark. That ensures a permanent no pumping solution. I guess it always comes down to how many dollars or or how much effort to fix a problem properly or what is a reasonable solution from a cost/benefit point of view.
The sinking boat analogy is appropriate. I think he just wants the water to get to the bilges efficiently so he can keep pumping.
The interrupted spring problem will never go away so water management is the only way.
is he afraid of you finding bodies???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Move the washer, dryer and utilities upstairs. Add chlorine and a filter pump, bring over the grandkids to swim in the indoor pool. Or leave out the chlorine and put in some fish, they can drop lines from the stairs.
Seriously - how is adding a product that directs water to the sumps going to change the fact that he is wearing out sumps on his wet basement?
Wearing out the pumps didn't seem to bother him.
He just wants to mitigate the running walls and sweating floor for some improvement.
Swimming pool or koi pond is good for a grin.
I have done it, on a house that had a wet basement since it was built in the late 50s. Client still happy, says not a drop of moisture inthe three years since. Can detail it and have some pix, I think, if you're interested.
Was one ~18 X 26' room.
seal-O-Flex is the only basement waterproofing company that will say they can do it from the negative (inside) walls.
Pretty much building a pool liner inside the concrete block.
Materials were probably les than $1500; lots of labor though.
Forrest
Yes, more details please.
Well, I was with you right up 'till the spruce ply.
Given that the HO insists that he does NOT want the job done right, he just wants it done, I think you're on the right path. Waterproof the walls with a membrane (or preferably plastic panels) that empty into a properly-designed interior French drain. Make sure to drill weep holes in each block cell at the bottom course so they drain into the system. If there is any way to get the French drain to daylight, I'd do it so you can eliminate the pump, but it sounds like that'll be impossible.
But for the floor, I'd say lay a drainage membrane over the existing floor, tie it into the French drain, and add another 2" - 3" of concrete on top and call it done. As for Delta MS for this application, I don't know if it's designed to be installed horizontal with 'crete over it -- that may compress it too much to allow drainage. In a basement that wet, there's no way I'd ever consider a wood floor. You're begging for mold and rot just from the humidity (which you're never gonna cure), let alone water.
That said, get it in your (SIGNED) contract that the HO elected to refuse your advice and you're not providing ANY warranty on the effectiveness of the proposed half-a$$ed solution.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
"As for Delta MS for this application, I don't know if it's designed to be installed horizontal with 'crete over it "
Delta makes Delta-FL for the floor, but it is designed to be topped with ply or osb, probably couldn't take concrete. I've used it in my basement and I'm pretty happy with it.
Only 'pretty happy with it' ?
Any issues or pitfalls that come to mind ?
We sleep in the basement, so have more stringent requirements than that guy should. For one room we used a product called sub-flor, which I don't think is in business anymore, and is totally geared towards either the DIY or the very narrow basement stairs because it comes in 2x2 tongue and groove sheets. This had Delta-FL adhered to OSB. It works very well and that room went up several degrees in temperature after we put it down. There is a similar product now called Dri-Core, but this has something else on the bottom (hard plastic nubs instead of the hollow ones that Delta-FL has). In the other room we put Delta-FL down directly and put normal tongue and groove subfloor down on top. This room is so comfortable that we don't really need to heat or cool it. In both cases I would feel better if it weren't just floating there and if we had some way to glue and screw the subfloor down. We can't fasten down through the Delta-FL or we ruin the integrity. We had a couple of spots where I think the slab was a little uneven and you can tell.
On the other hand, we have wood floor (engineered) in our basement and it is just as nice as the day we installed it - no warping or other evidence of moisture. Although, one thing to keep in mind is that we had no evidence of water on those floors before hand - we did this to make the rooms more comfortable in temperature and as a "just in case" measure for water.
If I had it to do over and the same product was available then, I would probably use Dri-Core - it seems sturdier than Delta-FL and serves the same purpose, plus it is available locally. For both of the others I had to special order across the country - I still have a roll of the Delta-FL if you are interested :)
Bump for the pictures from forrest... Im interested in the fix as I have a similar situation.
Thanks. Useful information.
Would use still use the dri core in a very wet situation as described?
Seems like an awful lot of joints in the 2x2 grid compared to the long seams with the Delta products.
I will let you know on the Delta FL. :)
No, I wouldn't use the dricore in a wet basement situation. If you absolutely, positively feel you must put wood down over the pond, then I'd use the Delta-FL and overlay with pressure treated plywood. But I'm not a builder.
The french drain to daylight would be great but water mostly does not run uphill.
The Delta MS people do make a product for horizontal application like this. It is the same dimpled membrane made from virgin material as opposed to recycled shampoo bottles.
A 2" layer of concrete has already been added to this mess and I have no desire to add more hence the Delta MS, Styrofoam with a protective and firecode layer of plywood for a platform. Hopefully 1 1/2 - 2" of Styrofoam between water and wood would be sufficiently protective of the ply.
You can be sure he will be signing a separate document that this will not solve the wet basement. It will only mitigate and manage the problem.
< . . . but water mostly does not run uphill. >
Yeah, I'd pretty much have to agree.
Tons of good info here on these here forums.
Forrest
There is always rising damp and capillary action but I don't think it will handle the volume in this case.
Still love to see the details and pix if you have them handy.
Thanks
s.
I'll track them down this weekend and scan them - I think they're pre-digital
Much appreciated
Thanks
s.
I grew up in a house with a very wet basement. I think it's probably because my dad took the gutters off the house and didn't do anything to direct the water away from the foundation.
To solve the wet basement problem, he raked out about 2 inches of pea gravel across the entire basement floor, laid polyethylene sheeting on top of the gravel, and then put varnished OSB sheets on top of that. The OSB sheets just float on top of the plastic sheets. No fasteners. There's about an inch gap around the perimeter walls where the gravel is exposed. It's ugly, but 30 years later it's still there and the floor surface is dry. The sump pump goes like crazy when it rains, and the walls are wet then too. But the floor is dry and you can store stuff down there.
It's an ugly band aid, but it works.
Sounds like a low tech 'solution' but a step in the right direction if it has helped.
he doesn't WANT the correct solutions that actually work so I walk away from it.
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Are you saying the suggested interior method is completely worthless?
You and I and others know the correct approach but people can be peculiar in their requirements for whatever reason.
Sometimes for whatever reason exterior excavation is not practical, though not in this case that I can discern.
So, we accept the limitations presented with the sure knowledge that should the interior approach suggested fail then exterior excavation will have to be the ultimate solution.
Is it not worthwhile to think outside the box and explore newer products and options if only for academic or intellectual reasons?
Naturally if I do not have confidence in a particular solution I always walk in the end.
There is no point in owning other peoples problems.