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what am I doing wrong?

| Posted in General Discussion on June 25, 2002 12:06pm

Building the dormers in my house is the slowest process in the world.  It took me well over 40 hours per dormer just to frame.  This weekend I covered them with Sips (it’s a timberframe)well I tried and barely got one covered.

     while access is a bit difficult (30+ feet in the air)  I have a work platform on the telescopic forklift  so it’s not impossible.  careful measurement prior to cutting everything, and yet when I do everything is somehow wrong enough that a second and sometimes third and forth cutting is required.  Now I’ll grant you that matching the differant roof pitches requires some head scratching and trig work but with a calculator I seem to get the same answers consistantly enough. yet everything winds up being off somehow.  The west wing and great room have a total of 6 dormers.    At the rate I’m going I’ll have close to 500 hours in the dormers alone.  heck I know some whole houses built in less time.

  Is there something I’m doing wrong?

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Replies

  1. Armin110 | Jun 25, 2002 12:30am | #1

    Frenchy, Maybe you are to "liberal" in your measurments, try being more "conservative". Ha Ha, Hee Hee (slaps knee, ROF).  Sorry, Just couldn't pass it up.

    Sometimes no matter what you do it's not going to work out the first time around. I used to specialize in complex roof framing, sort of a master rafter crafter. A trick I did use was to take a reading on the different roof pitches with a digital level. Just because you think it's a 7/12 doesn't mean it really ended up that way, also are you allowing for the thickness of the valley rafter and ridge, the math numbers work from the centerline of the rafters,valley rafter and ridge, not the edges. The jack rafters need to be shortened to compensate for ridge thickness as well as  raised above the edge of the valley rafter so the centerlines match up. By contrast the ridge needs to be dropped down so the rafter lines up with the edge of the ridge meeting an imaginary centerline above the ridge. Now I'm confused, it's easier done than said. I'm sure somebody else can explain it better.

    1. MisterT | Jun 25, 2002 02:12am | #2

      Frenchy,

      Please don't take this the wrong way, but usually when I am having trouble fitting hips and valleys and my measurements are all checking out, it is because whatever I am working to is off some how. On a small dormer there is very little tolerance for even a little bit of out of square or out of level. And with Timberframing this is even more so. 4x & 6x lumber just doesn't tweak into place with a couple of taps with the bigger hammer. Plus you can't always hit an exposed timber in the right spot w/o leaving peccar tracks.

      Just one possible explanation without seeing the situation first hand.

      You better hurry up tho...

      Your wife ordered drapes and carpet for next week :)

      Good luck and good framing!

      Mr T.

      Do not try this at home!

      I am a trained professional!

      1. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 03:43am | #6

        what do you think? is 500 hours for six dormers rough carpentry reasonable?

        1. MisterT | Jun 25, 2002 01:07pm | #14

          Frenchy,

          Just think of your self as a Historical Carpentry Artisan.  Back before electricity, when labor was 2 cents a day,  500 hours was probably makin good time.

          Consider this process.

          Get to work in the AM

          Boss says Frame some dormers

          Slog into the woods and pick out some straight trees.

          Cut down said trees (with an axe or a bow saw)

          Drag trees to "the pit"

          Saw into lumber

          Hump lumber to house

          cut with a hand saw.

          straighten with an adze,scrub plane and fore plane.(you now have forearms like Popeye)

          Build some staging with the unsuitable lumber.

          carve a boat-load of trunnels

          make notches with a hammer and chisel

          bore for trunnels with an auger in a brace and bit.

          tha smallest nails on the job are 4" long and as fat as a pencil. when you fill your apron you list to one side!

          You are  one of two people on the whole job who can read, so there is no need for plans or specs.

          500 hours of back-breaking labor later the boss says the dormers look OK, and hands you  $1.10  (10 cent tip)

           That night while relaxing before you passout from exhaustion you come up with the concept of  the carpenters Union. but it will never fly so you fall asleep for three days.

          Au revoir mon ami!

          T

          Do not try this at home!

          I am a trained professional!

          1. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 05:04pm | #16

            THANK YOU MR. T!

               Now I feel like I'm flyin'  it takes but a moment to saw a timber! and when I set the power plane on  the timbers, they are  baby butt smooth within a half an hour.  OK so I don't have forearms like Popeye, at least my shirts fit!

              As for nails, well they aren't allowed on a timberframe or others who post here will heap scorn upon you and cause you to weep......(besides white oak won't take kindly to nails and either cause said nails to bend, split itself into worthlesness, or cause rot where they remain.) 

             I suppose my chain auger is cheatin' too!  I tried cutting mortice pockets with a hammer and chisel, once! didn't get popeye arms, they got kinda rubbery instead.  Proud of my self, only mashed my thumb once  (fingers several times but then I digress)

    2. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 03:41am | #5

      I can usually build a dormer quickly  because I suspect that I understand what you are saying intuitively.  However it's a world differant when working with timbers. slight gaps in angles which are normally covered up in stick building wind up show off your incompetance with timber framing. 

        Evan still taking over 40 hours to frame a dormer is way out of line isn't it?  Should I fire the framer (myself) the designer who was so liberal with dormers (myself) The helper (myself) or my wife for allowing me this insanity?

        Is 500 hours to do six dormers normal? (that does not count finish, trim, or siding/shingles) that's just rough work.

      1. Armin110 | Jun 25, 2002 04:47am | #8

        Frenchy, You are correct that timbers are difficult to frame with any angle let alone compounds. My grandfather was a timber framer back in the old country and I still recall my dad telling stories about how fast they could get a frame up. I suspect it's like anything else the more you do the better you get. I have, more than once, had to fit timbers at weird angles. Since I only had to do a few joints, I used the cut it oversized and worked the final fit with an angle grinder. That method would most likely result in the 40 hr, dormer.  One thing comes to mind would be to cut the rafter 1 inch long, give it your best shot then tack in in place, scribe all 4 sides of the rafter to the valley and cut to the line, that should get you down to 2 trips  instead of 4. Or you could do what my compitition does with stairs, cut it oversized, beat it in place and caulk, repeat until done.

        1. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 04:57am | #11

          Ok but with practice shouldn't things get faster?   It's forty hours to frame, four dormers 160 hours, forty hours to panel with sips  (only one done so far) and who knows forty hours to trim? 

            I did whole walls in less than forty hours as well as raise bents in less than 10.

            Is your granfather available??

          1. Armin110 | Jun 26, 2002 01:29am | #19

            Frenchy,

              Is your grandfather available, lets put it this way, he's either working on that great timberframe in the sky or as my mother used to say,  more than likely working with some really kiln dried lumber. I would call him for you but I don't think AT&T long distance goes quite that far.

          2. Snort | Jun 28, 2002 02:02am | #29

            The closest I've been to timber framing, was growing up in Amish country (Lancaster, PA) and helping on a couple of barn raisings when I was a kid...They were barns and the stuff only had to fit good enough to hold 'em up, and that it did. And quckly, too...I've built a couple of houses for myself (and I am in the trades), and sometimes you've gotta learn when to move on. Jeeze, I'm an anal trim carpenter, but after a while, I wanted to get into my house...my house is never going in Fine Homebuilding, but it's still a finely built home for what I had to put into it, and the sucker's comfortable and I don't have to worry about inviting my raucous friends in...you're being touted as some kind of liberal <G> so maybe you could lighten up on yourself and yer house, get it done and we'll all come to Christmas dinner...I wanna play with that lift...

            Good luck, BB

          3. fdampier | Jun 28, 2002 02:12am | #30

            Nice home Bucksnort,

              Now why would someone who owns such a classy home  down grade himself with the title Bucksnort Billy?  I suspect there's a story there somehow!

              Oh and 'iffin ya want to play with my forklift, common over!   I'll call it a sales prestentation and we'll play untill you get bored!    Hint, the fun part is to try to find a mud hole that will get it stuck without you having to get out and swim......

          4. User avater
            Qtrmeg | Jun 28, 2002 04:09am | #31

            Frenchy, if you told me you wanted the dormers to fit like a glove I would price 2 guys/2 days, a piece. You are in the ballpark and I haven't heard you say you weren't satisfied with the work... that's priceless. They get easier to do as you go.

            Your only mistake was not being my next door neighbor, we would have a blast.

          5. fdampier | Jun 29, 2002 03:45am | #39

            Hey Qtrmeg,

              Would you please come and be my neighbor?  The old biddy who lives next door is a royal pain in the rectum.  Her husband is pretty decent but badly whipped.  Friday afternoon 'iffin he wants a beer he has to go out on the dock to drink it since she won't let him drink in the house.  Saturday morning they fire up the shop vac and vacumn the patio in case any dust managed to land there.  It takes him the better part of an hour......   The first saturday of the month they wash all the windows (it's a regular production that takes them the better part of the day to do)

              She's a former school princple who's used to barking orders and is shocked when I tell her,(&*^*^%(((_*_(+_(*&^*^#^#&&**)_(&)*  and ^(*%%#..  usually at full volume.  She hates me and hate of neighbors is something we share.

               I could bribe you with all kinds of cool wood and the tools to play with it.....   

            Edited 6/28/2002 8:56:48 PM ET by frenchy

          6. User avater
            Qtrmeg | Jun 30, 2002 04:13am | #44

            Sounds like your neighbor lady has some issues. Oh well, poor gurl, life is too short for that crap.

            Now about the bribes, talk cold beer and equipment "rentals".

          7. fdampier | Jun 30, 2002 05:01am | #45

            Beer, how much can you drink and how cold?  (name your brand, .....after!)

              Equipment?  you name it!  (Might have a little trouble getting over a 50 ton crane though, they are in short supply evan at the factory)   Just about anything else??!!!!

              What a miserable day,  I managed to panel the sides of one dormer.  Poor planning on my part, I spent the cooler morning putting the granite up along the foundation. Of course I thought it would only take a couple of hours,  Ha!  2:30 in the heat of the day and I'm climbing up and dragging panels with me.  By 4:30 I was done.  Skin a nice crispy red, sweat running off my forhead so bad it's blinding me.  Glasses covered with sweat, I'm by-God doing it by braille since I can't see.  I turn and look at the nice cool lake beckoning me. I can't stand it!  I weakoned.....

                

          8. AJinNZ | Jul 01, 2002 10:05am | #46

            WAAAHAAHAAHAAHAAHAA

            Your missus wastes good money on store bought bum wipe?! ROFLMAO

            Lemme make sure I have this right, If I was to visit I would get to play with lotsa power tools, black walnut, drink yer beer AND cus the neighbours too?!!!

            Methinks I need a plane ticket........................

             

            Wood Hoon

            Edited 7/1/2002 3:07:51 AM ET by AJINNZ

          9. thfxr | Jul 11, 2002 07:38am | #47

            You guy's are getting completely giddy. As usual you've taken a subject to it's most ridiculus point. I love it!! Continue on in your holiday mood.... it's all good!!

          10. fdampier | Jul 12, 2002 05:26am | #48

            Update on the wacko's latest.

                Yesterday I almost died....

              seriously!

              I was workin tryin' to get the drain unplugged, too many shavings from the black walnut got washed into the drain and managed to plug it.   We've got slightly less rain then Noah  endured. Only just! since part of the house is ripped off the rain floods into the basement and the only way out was the drains.

                   I was trying to unplug them when I slipped and lost my balance a little. I reached up and grabbed for anything.  I grabbed a live wire (that I thought was dead since  I had cut all wires at the circuit breaker, actually someone had back feed the wires and they were still live, boy were they live)   They grabbed me back and wouldn't let go, for over a minute I was in the grip of 110 volts, since I was so well grounded  (Pouring rain, in almost a foot of water & my feet on the cast iron drain)  I couldn't let go nor could anyone come to my aid. At last I was able to buckle my left knee a little and my weight caused me to fall which broke the grip of the currant)

               Progress on the house is at a stand still.  I can't do any more work since all of the forklifts are out at work.  Without a way to get up I'm not able to get anymore trim work done.  and since the electric power is in the way of doing more timber framing, I'm at the mercy of the power company.  They continue to call me and tell me OH, Frenchy, I'm sorry there is another delay so we won't be out untill.......  10 weeks ago I was ready for them to move, ten weeks I've been rubbing against the lines, stretching them out of the way, doing what I can.

             I finished up with all of the planing of the rough sawn black walnut and have it stored up in the pool room.  while I could do a little more timber prep work, the next timbers I need are at the bottom of a fifteen foot pile. since each timber weighs around 400 pounds  ( a couple of the larger ones are over 800 pounds) without a forklift the pile won't be moved.  Hopefully the power company will come across soon and somebody will bring back a forklift....

          11. AJinNZ | Jul 12, 2002 06:57am | #49

            What happened to your weather? A few days ago you were getting sunburned and pouring sweat.

            Think I will stay over here at my end. At least we get SOME idea of whats going to happen.

            Can ya move the wires yourself? Then let the useless power dept tidy up.? geeze what a  useless bunch of............

            Maybe tell them one of the kids grabbed a live wire and got zapped, and if they dont get their butts round your gonna sue. ( just dont tell them you grabbed while you were doing what you were doing. )

            Take it easy man. Use the time to rest after your 'experience'.

            Didja makes the lights go dim in the whole neighbourhood? 

            Wood Hoon

          12. fdampier | Jul 12, 2002 06:18pm | #52

            I am sooooooooooooo tempted to move the power lines myself but have been warned by local builders of the results of doing that...   apparently the power company makes you post a bond if they catch you doing it and they hold that bond forever.....

              This weekend I'll only have little tiddly jobs to do so that will be a rest...of sort for me.

                As for weather, yes we have our share of it and if you don't like it, wait a few days and it will change.  the weather guru promises 4 days of high 80's and 90's then more rain about the day they are supposed to move the power lines.

              As for lites in the neighborhood, well all I can say is my lites got dim there for a minute.....    Actually I relaxed for a few minutes then took a wooden pole and raised the lines up and secured them with a rubber bungee cord...then back to work, gotta house to build. 

          13. rez | Jul 12, 2002 07:18am | #50

            man frenchy, you're story keeps getting more involved. Guess I ain't got it so bad after all.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.

          14. fdampier | Jul 12, 2002 06:20pm | #53

            Rez,

             actually I'm still havin' a ball.  I must be wacko since I still like doing this. Still excited about things and lookin' forward to the next progress point.

          15. rez | Jul 12, 2002 11:14pm | #55

            yep, when you're on the jazz it's time to keep producing. That's how it gets done. Go man go! Victory is within your grasp!Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.

          16. DavidxDoud | Jul 12, 2002 08:20am | #51

            man - hang in there and be careful - your story  dredges memories of a few times I should  have died and didn't - got more to do I guess - glad you're all right,  sorry the 'powers'  that be don't seem to realize what's important -  maybe time for a little side trip to reflect and gain perspective?  I had friends return from the 'sundance' recently,  they were invited to support one of the dancers  who is from this area originally - 4 days of drum, dance, prayer, and more that I cant' do justice to with a keyboard - intense - what a trip - what a story,  I've been on the edge of such experiences,  my turn in the middle is not yet - we're going to blast for WY for a few days - older friend (but so alive) - she believes I saved her life in '81 (and I might have,  backpacking out 'avalanche canyon') - time to ditch these mundane concerns and wing another trip - I'm so tired of wallowing in these details that seem such obsticles,  but aren't even a f art in a windstorm within the big picture - wanta meet us in Kelly WY?  we'll raise atoast to our follies,  and curse the small minds that throw obsticles in our way - DOUD

          17. fdampier | Jul 12, 2002 06:27pm | #54

            thanks for the invite David, 

              Sounds neat, wish I could get it in my priorites, but the house still becons.  They do a mini version of that here in Minnesota, near St. Peter, but I think it's later in the year, fall if I recall.

              Kinda hard to put up trim when you want to be puttin up timbers but that's what I'll do this weekend.  Actually it is probably what I should do since I still ache from the grip I had (or it had of me) some light work will be a pleasant change. 

          18. User avater
            Qtrmeg | Jul 13, 2002 11:35pm | #60

            Glad you made out ok, letric sux.

            Also glad you are cranking to beat winter, seems we just had snow a month or two ago, and who knows when it will come again. Time flys, and there is never enough.

          19. fdampier | Jul 14, 2002 05:02pm | #61

            Ya'll musta live down south somewhere, up here in the Nord we had winter last week.....or so it seems......

          20. AJinNZ | Jul 15, 2002 05:33am | #62

            Frenchy dude, our weather has gone to poo as well. cold and wet now. I would bet money on it snowing up on the hills today.

            Make the most of your summer, winter isnt that far off. If its raining when the power guys arrive, just make them do it anyway. I mean, they have to turn stuff off first right? so what difference? Jump up and down and yell enough and they will get on with it. Your house man.

            I'm pleased your lights didnt go permanently dim. In the end slower is faster anyway. 

            Wood Hoon

          21. fdampier | Jul 15, 2002 11:32pm | #63

            Tomorrow! 

                 they were here today to check out the site and what they didn't know would fill a barrow... I mean they had this 18 page document with them that had all of the answers on it but it was so complete as to be worthless, kinda like VCR instructions.  In the end they just asked me (luckily I was there)  everything was a challenge and I could sense that one wrong answer, one unfilled form or sheet and I would have gone to the tail of the line.   Oh we have to tear up your brick driveway to see if .......

              Um since the lines won't go anywhere near the driveway are you sure?  Oh, ya that's right....

                well we need to have the gas main marked,...Um isn't the yellow lines painted on the ground the gas line?...... well, I suppose!

               oh this is too tight for our machine to fit in, we'll have to hand dig it.......   Um the ground is real soft and if you want I'll do the digging.......Oh, OK then.......

                 I saw them keep looking listfully at the lake and make lots of comments about fishin....

            The misquitos have arrived in force.  This years crop seems particularly large,  one medium sized one managed to pick me up but dropped me when my daughter came out of the house.  Luckily I have a large bazooka and sent several rounds into it driving it away... I heard it mutter as it flew off about getting it's big brother and........

              well lets just say the the night belongs to the bugs .........

            Edited 7/15/2002 4:37:24 PM ET by frenchy

          22. AJinNZ | Jul 16, 2002 08:31am | #64

            HAAHAAHAA

            Well the answer to your problems is right in front of you.

            Stake out the useless power dept mongrels on the front lawn and let the mozzies have a go at them for a while. Make them promise to do the job pronto before you let them go.

            Have a particularly large a frocious mozzie on a chain so ya can threaten the clowns with it if they slow down.

            Take a bunch of pics cos i want to watch. <G> 

            Wood Hoon

          23. Snort | Jun 28, 2002 05:43am | #32

            Dang, I thought since I could make up ANY name., I'd bring myself up a notch...anyway, you should see what we've done with the inside of the place, it's upitty trailer park...hey, quit typin' and keep wacking dem beams, xmzs is is coming...I'll bring my own mud...glad you liked the house, we just put a new seat in the master bath!

          24. Snort | Jun 28, 2002 05:50am | #33

            FRENCHY:How come your name's not in the reply menu? you think you're impaired? I sent a kid to college to learn this stuff...see all the help I'm getting?

          25. Snort | Jun 28, 2002 05:55am | #34

            check it out, I'm talking to myself, again...that was a pic of the bath remodel, not my college kid's help...hmmmmm...there's something dreadfully wrong here, isn't there?

          26. fdampier | Jun 28, 2002 07:45am | #35

            Now Bucksnort Billy,

              Yawl can't expect to master such technicalities as postin pixtures on this here cornputer.  I's mean that I "r"a college edjucated guy heck I done got me one of dose diplomats made outta sheep dip. 

              I does like your comfort station though.  Heck the trees is right in close reach and thems big leaves, not the pine trees like I's got.  Kinda hard to get that fresh feelin' with a hand full of pine... (now that the cones is all used up..)

          27. thfxr | Jun 28, 2002 08:53am | #36

            After reading all the messages posted I have learned a few things myself. As a professional carpenter I think you may be struggling to much with calculations. In carpentry things do not always calculate exactly, on paper it should, but in real life, it doesn't.

            Sometimes it is, as an old carpenter friend of mine said, it's down to

            nibble and fit, and that winds up being the faster and more efficient route.

            Also remember, as professional woodworkers, what we struggle for is the illusion of perfection, not perfection itself!

          28. Snort | Jun 29, 2002 12:57am | #37

            THFXR, That's what I tell my help, create the illusion and get sweat on the small stuff...but I leave the perfection part out! and hey, welcome to Breaktime...

            Frenchy, pine cones? ooowwweee, ooowwweee...I've got some sweet gum balls you'll really love...

            are you done yet? Don't make me come up there...

          29. fdampier | Jun 29, 2002 03:34am | #38

            AW shucks Bucksnort,

                Pine cones are pleasant compared to 40 below wind chills up your butt for the nine or ten months that we endure winter here in Minnesota..   (ever try to pry a frozen one out?)

                I just got an "old" forklift home today so I can panel the dormer with the SIPS.  while I'm at it I hope to finish the flooring.  (I'm taking rough black walnut, planing it and running it over the joiner to square the edges up and then running it over a shaper.  I'm down to the final 1000 bd.ft. or so.     If things go well enough I can set the black walnut flooring in through the bow window opening.  (much easier to put thousands of bd.ft. of wood flooring up on the third floor with the fork lift than carry everything up a few boards at a time)

              This week I was flagging 2 inch granite along the foundation.  once everything is landscaped it will appear as if I have a granite foundation,  cost under $300.00 (not counting the Hilti hammer drill that works so slick its like I'm drilling thru balsa.) 

                RULE  #1

                       tools don't count in costs when they are fun to play with........

          30. fdampier | Jun 29, 2002 03:55am | #40

            HI!

               Yup, illusion of correct is acceptable to me too!   I just haven't figured out out to fill big gaps in timbers.  So what I do is make one set and then correct the mistakes, make another set and hopefully most of the errors are corrected, the third time things are so much closer that by the time I make the forth set of timbers everything fits pretty good. (that's always assuming I remembered which compound direction I'm using and I don't make it backwards or something equally stupid).

                It would be neat if they all were the same so I didn't have to adjust every single timber!

          31. Snort | Jun 29, 2002 04:20am | #41

            Then you should have made your house out of formica, man...Frenchy, you've never done this, right? There's a learning curve to wiping your bum, well apparently not in Minnesota, if you're still using frozen pinecones...oh yeah, ripping, then soothing...Cottonell brother, you'll thank yourself, and you won't believe the points you'll get with Mrs. Frenchy...

          32. fdampier | Jun 29, 2002 05:32am | #42

            Oh sure, take her side!

               She wastes perfectly good money on store bought bun wipe!  In fact she insists that sooner or later I get the kind of indoor plumbin' that all the neighbors have! 

               Now can you explain how doin' business in the house is healthy?   I mean I get all bent outta shape when the dog does it,  why is it somehow better ifin I does it? 

              Your right, I've never built a timberframe before.  I visit several new homes every day.  I've been doing this for over ten years and in all that time I've never seen another timber frame other than one episode of this old house.  I've seen a few log homes but never another timber frame.

              I'm not certain why or how I came up with the wacko idea of a double timberframe.  Maybe it was because I was afraid that a black walnut timberframe would be too dark but I loved black walnut so I wound up doing it this way.  Maybe it's because I'm anal and maybe it's because nobody else does it this way......hmmmmm....... I think the latter with a little of the other two.

          33. Snort | Jun 29, 2002 06:08am | #43

            Slap yourself right now, get a little sleep, hey it's the weekend, you can get ahead of schedual...

  2. Piffin | Jun 25, 2002 02:22am | #3

    Angles Amplify Aerrors

    Excellence is its own reward!
    1. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 03:26am | #4

      In my ignorance I assumed that once I got all of the angles/ measurements/ size correct, I could make master template and just replicate everything.   All that produced was three sets of everything that didn't fit anything.

        Sometimes  a measurement that was as little as an eight of an inch off  wound up leaving well over a an inch and a eighth gap someplace.   Now I've learned that timbers develop "charcter"  and evan jig built trusses that fit perfectly wind up "off" a little. correcting for that "charcter"  I wind up scratch building everything several times (which drives me crazy)

      1. Piffin | Jun 25, 2002 03:53am | #7

        You are "Practicing Patience" in the Brotherhood of Benovolent Builders.

        Just think of it as your health club membership dues. It's probably the height as much as anything. Some jobs on big places seem to have me spending six out of nine hours trudging back to the truck. My last two jobs have been a joy because I can back the truck close to the work. I've even impressed myself with my speed. But oin thoisae discouraging jobs where there is distance... Accessability is probably the hardest thing to acount for when I'm making an estimate. Part of it is the psychological factor. Once you discern that you aren't getting as much done as you thought you would, you lose momentum. Your feet drag slowly up the steps. You make more mistakes and then compound those mistakes. Taking some time off or tackling a different kind of work for a day or so can re-vitalize you or let your subconscious mind hit on a solution...

        Good luck, you crazy old liberal! ;>)

        Excellence is its own reward!

        1. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 04:52am | #9

          I can't complain about access, with a telescopic fork lift, it's easier to have someone pull the lever while I ride up in style  (well, ease) and pop in the window of the dormer,   then to trudge up the flight of stairs /ladders.

            most of the tools are set there so only rarely do I have to come down. all material goes up that way and debris gets a shout, "Look out below" and a heave. (gravity works)

  3. 4Lorn1 | Jun 25, 2002 04:54am | #10

    On a recent renovation a carpenter friend of mine, Jeff, came up short for help one week. Knowing and liking the guy, and having nothing else pressing, I agreed to lend a hand with the understanding that due to my profession, electrician, I had likely absorbed enough voltage that I would not be called upon to think too much and would confine my efforts to simple tasks and grunt labor.

    When we got to the job Jeff was kind enough to explain, in terms even a fried brain could understand, the task before us. We were going to frame in two dormers. He, again in blue dinosaur terms, said that if this was new construction he would have some assurance as to the constancy of the planes and angles that the dormers required and would spend time looking at charts, tables and working a fancy calculator to a smoking foam. I did my best impression of an egg plant nodding in a summer breeze.

    He went on to explain, as I hummed the Barney song, that seeing as this was a renovation job that It was unlikely that anything was plumb, level or consistent across the width of the, soon to be built, dormer. With this picture firmly in mind, I'm seeing purple crayon, a drooling stick figure and a happy sun, Jeff says that the key to this is to string lines to define the outline of the dormer and then take measurements from this as opposed to the idealized model on paper.

    We get to work. Jeff carefully explains each step as I look at the pretty string. The two dormers get framed in good time as I tote, hold and dummy for each measurement. At the end of the day Jeff pats me on the back and said that I learned quickly. I graciously tell him that he is a good teacher and that what we did was close to some set up I did last week. He asks why I didn't say anything. I tell him that he was enjoying teaching too much. We laugh and order another round. It was fun and quite refreshing letting someone else do the brain work.

    1. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 05:13am | #12

      Please send him by, I'd like my brain to rest a bit too..  In fact I'd love it if someone besides me made some decisions once in a while.  I've got a buddy that is as strong as a bull. at best he can only hold those timbers in place for a minute or two and it's a shaky minute at that.   We tried clamping timbers but sometimes you just can't.  what's worse when we are able to clamp the timbers may have a slight twist or something and then when you look up you notice that they are tapered in/out or sideways. Now you need to be able to figure out the correct angle, while allowing for a dozen variations.  next figure out where to put in the mortice and tenion and how to assemble it once those three other timbers are locked in place.

        The stupid window manufactor wants things plumb level and true with a rough opening according to some guideline.  HA!

           Let him come here and build the dang thing.  (did you know that a window rough opening that should be38 &1/8th can tolerate as little as 37 1/2?) dang if I'm gonna rebuild those timbers again!

      Edited 6/25/2002 10:24:03 AM ET by frenchy

      1. FrankB89 | Jun 25, 2002 05:48am | #13

        My house, and subsequently, a few others I built or was involved in from the timber framing aspect, presented some of the same dilemmas you are experiencing.  Since I also do a bit of log work (I love mixing square and round), I have ended up doing a lot of scribed fits.  When doing that, and if you've got an Arnold Swchartzenager to hold the piece, the key is to start with an initial rough scribe and then fine tune it on a second or third scribe...you can get air tight joints in a reasonable amount of time.

        I was once fitting some "valley rafter" logs into a peak log and the gable joinery was tough because it was at some Fung Sheui angle that didn't correspond to anything standard.  The log was big and heavy as hell so I made a dummy out of some styrofoam packing (not the best medium, I might add) glued together with titebond to approximate the size  of the log...used it to get  a near pattern, transferred it to the log and then fine tuned w/ chisel and peanut grinder.

        Earlier posts are right that with angles, the tolerances become more critical.  If I recall, you're doing about a 128 to 12 pitch or some damned thing so you've created a real challenge for yourself.

        If you would invest in a digital camera and post some pics of some of your problematic details, it would help us out (and probably blow us away).  Try borrowing one.  And when you've figured out how to get Prospero to accept your pics, clue me in, because after following all the instructions,  I've had no success. 

        1. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 05:29pm | #18

          HA!  You've got to be kidding,

               You want me to post some pictures????!!!!!!!!

              I'm too dumb to figure out simple dormers and you want me to delve into the mysteries of cameras and computers and post stuff?

            Jeeezzzsss give a guy a break!   It's bad enough that I have to admit to everyone on this board how incompitant I am, now you want to show another example of my incompitance.

                                      <G>         

          1. FrankB89 | Jun 26, 2002 03:24am | #21

            If a string were started in which everybody who participates here confessed their incompetence, it would probably rival the Home Depot string for length.

            You're not incompetent, you're just stuck a little...you'll figure it out.

            And when you do, work on doing the camera thing.... 

          2. fdampier | Jun 26, 2002 05:40am | #22

            The problem is I am working it out,  yet so slow that in a race between the rockies with an eye dropper and my work, smart money is on the rocks...

                Today they ran out of forklifts  at work which means Mine is going back... Now I've got to climb all the way to the roof. Oh well, it will mean that I can work on some stuff a little closer to the ground.

      2. User avater
        BossHog | Jun 25, 2002 03:10pm | #15

        I don't know that I can offer you any specific ideas. But even us computer/design jeniuses get stumped once in a while by things that don't "work". These are some of the things I do:

        1. Try measuring things a different way. If you've been measuring things left-to-right, try measuring right-to-left.

        2. Try doing your figuring a second way to see if you get the same answer.

        3. Walk away from it for a while, then come back

        4. Have another person look at it who isn't all bent out of shape about it. (yet)

        You might try posting some of your figures here, and see if some of the math experts agree with it.

        When you shut the door on a refridgerator, how do you know that little light inside really goes off?

        1. fdampier | Jun 25, 2002 05:19pm | #17

          Boss Hog,

            well, you take all the shelves out and crawl inside.  sure enough the light goes out.... best make sure someone you really trust is your partner on this deal...

            (just readin' the little scrawl at the bottom)

              So far four differant dormers done, several differant ways each.  It's just that timbers nearly 20 feet long develop "charcter" over that 20 foot span.   One timber is at a 26.8/12 pitch and another timber is at a 27.4/12 pitch.  Thus the verticals that you start with no longer point straight up. their face is skewed. If you could manage to shove them correct the resultant gap looks like you came from the school of handgrenade carpentry where close is good enough...  Now If I built typical stick built, no-one would see that gap, it'd be covered with sheet rock.

            In addition while each face is 90 degrees to the other, that does not mean that the timber is 90 degrees from true, remember that charcter I spoke about?  Evan the short lengths of timber which we're working from for the dormer timbers can vary a bit and you don't catch it untill nothing fits and nothing is gonna fit. (I've found it's possible to break a com-along trying unsuccessfully to pull a 4"x6" timber into place)

  4. OneofmanyBobs | Jun 26, 2002 01:55am | #20

    Templates. Bring up a couple rough-cut pieces

    of luaun several inches small. Screw strips on

    each edge with drywall screws to meet each surface.

    No measuring, no sliding bevels. Trace the templates

    onto the real stuff and cut. Just like how you

    fit vinyl flooring. Might save a couple trips up and down.

    A couple sheets of luaun are cheap compared with

    a week of labor.

    1. fdampier | Jun 26, 2002 05:56am | #23

      Actually Bob,

       a sheet of luan is nine bucks or so and a week of my labor isn't nearly so expensive, actually if it were that simple I'd be done a long while ago. 

        I used the first set I made as patterns for the 3 others with similar roof pitch. carefully cut them out and verified that they were an exact match.   Well nothing fit!  nothing!   I couldn't evan use a few pieces since this changed that and so on and so on .  

          I've got 4 dormers up and they are square and plumb.  The rough opening is workable and I'm startng to put the SIPS on.  Yet this one is 31.75 inches to this point and that side is 32.1 inches.

           When stick building it's acceptable to be within a 1/4 inch, heck you cover it up with sheet rock anyway. But a 1/4 inch gap on a timber frame makes one look like the crudest rank amature.   

           Well I am so maybe it's fair that I look like an amature.

      1. joeh | Jun 26, 2002 07:35am | #24

        Frenchy, this project of yours sounds like one hell of a first time learn as you go experience. That you are taking longer than expected shouldn't be a surprise. Aren't you glad you didn't bid those dormers?

        If they take 40 hours each, so what? By time you get to the last one you'll be an expert and maybe whip it out in only 35. As long as you are satisfied with the result, that's what counts.

        Those flaws that you can see from 100 feet away are invisible to 99% of the world, or we'd all go nuts.  Give it your best shot and give it a year. It'll look different when it's finished.  Joe H

      2. pm22 | Jun 27, 2002 05:16am | #25

        Frenchy,

        When you are building with heavy timbers, the weight of the new pieces will cause the other pieces to deflect.

        For instance, I once built a fence with 4" by 8" horizontal pieces of wood. The distance between them was exactly, say, 50". So I cut a bunch of 4" by 4"s exactly 50" long and began installing them. [8" on center] When I started reaching the center, the middle pieces were 1/8" too short. Since all the weight rested on the bottom rail, as I added more pieces, their added weight caused it to sag downwards.

        Hopefully this might provide a clue.

        -Peter

        1. MisterT | Jun 27, 2002 01:47pm | #26

          Frenchy,

          Actually, if you were to precut and assemble just three dormers and have them all fit right on the first try, You would be eligible for Ripley's Believe it or Not!!!

          When I get something that complex to work the way it should, My first reaction is that I ahve obviously over-looked something. My second thought , after checking all the places where I could have messed up, is that I should get the rest of the day/week/month off paid because I have just overcome monumental odds aginst me. Plus it is nice to be able to go home on a positve note once in a while.

          Since you sound like you are following the path of a true timber-framer, ("no nails are allowed") do you know about kerfing your joints to field adjust a frame assembly?

          The Notch-miester sounds like he does this for a living, he should have some good tips. It has been too many years since I have done a timber-frame so the details are a bit foggy.

          Post some pics man! There is nothing quite so beautiful as a bare timberframe, except a bare woman!!!

          Frame on my good man.

          Mr TDo not try this at home!

          I am a trained professional!

          1. fdampier | Jun 27, 2002 07:12pm | #27

            No bare frame here, I'm paneling it as soon as I can,  Timbers weather too quickly exposed to the elements.  The nice thing is that because the wiring etc. needs doing  prior to putting the panels on one things are enclosed I'm just about done.  Bad thing is everything takes way longer than I allowed for.  I figured to be at this point last fall.  I live in a neighborhood where it's mostly very successfull business owners, lawyers, airline pilots etc.  They see the mess and don't see the progress so things are tense.

                Yes I understand the princple, however I'm convinced that this house will stand for a very long time and if I weaken the tenions a little I'm afraid that it will bother me when I'm old and grey..  Call me anal if you must, but I just can't take a short cut on this.

                I did have a very nice compliment from the tech for the panel company.  (he stopped out to see what wacko stuff I'm doing that required a custom roof cap)   Anyway according to him the quality of my joints  is as good or better then the Benson timber frames and in fact all of the timberframes he site visits in this state.  Very pleasant since I tend to see where I could have done better and then I focus on those connections untill a 1/16th of an inch becomes about 4 feet in my mind.

              As for pictures I'm still waiting for anyone to do that.  Me and cameras have a very checkered past.

        2. fdampier | Jun 27, 2002 07:21pm | #28

          PM22,

            That's probably the best thing I've read so far,  no wait, the timbers are 6 inches wide by 9 inches deep with braces etc.  really shouldn't deflect but then I suppose the framework for the dormer is pretty heavy, but then why wouldn't deflect the same on all of them , well no two logs are exactly the same, but still differances in deflection enough to change measurements and angles?  maybe the sun causes them to deflect x amount and then the next day they deflect y amount,  yeh maybe it's a combination of deflections and  temp fluctations,  kinda a bad hair day syndrome.

            HHmmm....... timbers have a bad hair day.....

             They're coming to take me away haha, to the funny farm....they're coming to take me away!

          Edited 6/27/2002 6:56:30 PM ET by frenchy

  5. Edgar76b | Jul 13, 2002 01:29am | #56

    Hey frenchy i am not suggesting this has anything to do with your headaches, However are your dormer pitches the same as the pitch on your main roof? I am just curious.

    1. fdampier | Jul 13, 2002 02:10am | #57

      No,

         the roof over the west wing has a 27/12 pitch while the roof over the dormers is a 12/12 pitch.

        I did some mock ups with the 27/12 pitch and they looked funny, too gothic or as my wife said, looked like a witches house.  I tried the same as the great room pitch and that too looked "wrong."    Kinda glad in retrospect that I went for a simple 12/12 pitch.  I can imagine what a mess it would have been to adjust each dormer to the steeper pitch, plus with "only" a 12/12 pitch I could get off the forklift and stand on the dormers if I needed to.

      1. MisterT | Jul 13, 2002 01:40pm | #58

        Frenchy,

        It sounds like you need to walk away for a bit! Take the wife and kisds somewhere for a day or two. Relax, forget about the place, get distracted.  The life you save might be your own!! Nuttin personal but at your pace a couple of days of  aint gonna effect the schedule too poorly!! ;^)

        Also get a hold of a digital cam or a scanner and get some pics!! I gotta see this!

        27/12 sounds like an A frame. What is your span?  Your peak has got to be 30+ ft. to the ground.  Maybee the air is to thin up there for you to cypher properly!!  At least you could get James Heck to come by and give us one of his artistic renderings!

        Grabbing a live wire while standing in a foot of water!!!!! If that aint a sign, I dont know what is!!!!

        Slow down Bruddah !!!

        Mr T

        Do not try this at home!

        I am a trained professional!

        1. fdampier | Jul 13, 2002 06:43pm | #59

          Well,

             From the driveway the top plate is about 21 feet. The top plate is about 11 feet from the back side, so in one sense it's a split level. I'm spanning about 14 feet (a little less since I am restricted to the size I can build.  The outside is right at 16 feet {all my permit will allow}  Actually from the average finish grade I will be at 28 feet to the peak but that means that the land is higher still so it's a multi split level or some such nonsense.  I wedged it into the rules and this is all I'm allowed. 

            You could say that it is a modified A frame........ kinda. except that the great room and kitchen will be at 90 degrees to the west wing which really changes it from a A frame to a steep ......?

            I'd like to slow down but we have winter season due any week now and it really sucxs to work in 40 below wind chills.  Actually you could say I'm more afraid of winter than livewires...

            As for the camera thing, well I ain't gonna do it.  Hopefully someone will come by and do it for me but I don't do brain surgery or take pictures.

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