What brand forced air furnace suggested
logbuilder
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
I’m building a kit log home with an open floor plan. I’m looking at installing a forced air furnace system (propane gas) and wonder what’s the best brand name for the most reasonable dollar? How is Hiel vs. Trane?
Replies
This like asking someone, "What's the best brand of truck?". You'll get a lot of opinions based on something, little of it factual. There are five manufacturers of equipment and dozens of brands. As a designer, for years I specified Heil products over others. I now sell equipment, several different brands. If you want cheap, you will get cheap. If you want quality, pay for it.
My opinion on this is that, on units with equivalent features from different manifacturers, there is very little difference. The market is too competitive for any one to offer a superior, i.e. more costly product than anyone else.
The huge differences that you will find exist in the dealer/installer. Find a good one and buy the equipment that they sell, install and service.
Thanks for your response. One of the concerns I have is none of the contractors around here can give me a comfort level on why they choose one product over another. My feeling is it comes down to who's giving that contractor the best deal. How do I know that's the best name for me? I've been told by more than one person that Heil is a perfectly good name. I then throw out Comfortmaker and TempStar (and others) that are all made by International Comfort Products (including Heil) and I ask why do they manufacture one same exact furnace and sell under different names? Is there reason to think that they do this to appeal to different people in different markets because certain names (Heil) aren't attractive as others? Sounds like a marketing scam? Sorry for sounding so paranoid. Just want the best for the most reasonable dollar. I'm finding Trane and Bryant to be about $1,500 more per unit than Heil...and that doesn't seem reasonable either....higher cost because of the brand name maybe, or are they that much better?
Confused I know!
$1500 difference between units with equivalent features is questionable. I have the best Heil made (in 2001) in my home and I can't find fault with it. Although I sell a different brand, I would still recommend Heil to anyone.
Ask for a detailed list of features. 92% AFUE, 2 Stage capacity and variable speed typically top of the line. Compare apples to apples. If the Trane dealer is quoting you $1500 more vs anything else, AND all other things being equal, you have identified a crook.
On the other hand, a good contractor will include in the installed price the cost to do it right (adequate returns, 2-stage programmable thermostat, rigid duct work -NO FLEX, etc). To be fair, be very specific about the comparisons.
Timbo,
On this topic, I'm having a Ducane furnace 80k btu, installed today- some with 8x12 duct and most 6" round. Is there a reason you don't like flex duct?
A few years ago, Consumer Reports did a report on central heat/AC systems, If I recall, American Standard came in first, followed by Ruud.
Flex duct, when used very sparingly, like to connect boots to ducts, no more that 2-3 ft at a time and in areas where it cannot sag or be crushed, it ok, but inly just ok.
It is restrictive to air flow, easily crimped/crushed, and usually it is sloppily installed. It sags and allows liquid to collect in low spots when used in exhaust (and it IS used in toilet exhausts). In just about every way, flex duct is inferior to galvanized sheet metal. It is however a cheap. labor saving product.
Timbo has it right. I know a lot of folks here don't like the attitude at HVAC-talk, but here is the general concensus of some very smart folks in the industry.
There are currently no "bad" furnaces.
Proper installation, proper sizing, a good warranty and a good contractor is what makes the difference.
The problem is finding a good contractor.
Why is one brand preferred over another? For some brands, you don't have to be a dealer.That makes them attractive to small shops that operate in an area that has a protected dealer. That is why one company owns several names. But they are not all the same in terms of bells and whistles.
Ask for a load calculation, do they have 24 hour service, do they stock parts?Is it a common brand in your area? Amana is a good furnace. But no one here stocks parts, so that great deal is a lousy deal if I have to wait for parts when it is -40.
Can I also ask your opinion regarding the different efficiencies for furnaces? I understand the energy conservation aspect, however, I've had a contractor (this one I trust a little!) suggest that 80% units actually operate around 88%+ when installed correctly and operating correctly....particularly for my open floor plan. AND the higher efficiency units typically require some type of service during a ten year period because there are so many parts. His experience suggests that 80% are more reliable and operate as effectively with the models of today and of course overall are cheaper?
Thoughts....thanks!
First, the thermal efficiency is a quality of the physical equipment and is determined soley by design and/or construction of the unit. The contractor that told you otherwise deserves little, and I mean very little trust.
The rating, in percentage, is a standard rating based on Department of Energy standardized tests. Commonly listed as AFUE, (Annualized Fuel Utilization Efficiency). Proper installation and floor plan have zero influence on the efficiency.
I would have to speculate that this contractor probably believes that his 30 year old carburated truck operates more "effectively and reliably" than thos new fangled fuel-injected jobbies. Yeah, right. Bottomline is 90+% efficient furnaces are every bit as reliable as 80%ers.
Now you never said where you were building your log cabin, but take the following scenario into consideration: 1000 hours a year heating at net output of 72000 btu/hr. That works out to 72,000,000 btus of heating. For LP that is approximately 783 gallons at 100%, 833 gal @94% (my furnace), 870 @90% and 977 gal @ 80%. With LP costing $1.15 - 1.55 presently in my neck of the woods, one year of heating with the best available would save me $223 at the low end of the scale, half the cost of a cheap 80% furnace. If you live in an are where below 0 temps are usual during winter, and have a medium to large (3000 +sf) house the high efficiency furrnace will pay for the difference in price in a few years. In the 4 years that I've had mine, I have save over twice the price of an 80% efficient furnace.
Thanks...excellent breakdown! I'll definitely discuss this with the contractor. Just FYI, I'm building near Buffalo, NY (not unknown to 0 degree days) with a first and second floor footage of 1750 sq. I also have a full basement (another 1230 sq) that will be open to the first floor so I need to consider heat for the basement as well. I'm being told about 70K BTU would be needed?
I have some doubts about your contractor. I'm just a service tech so take what I say with a grain of salt.:) Here is what I tell customers who ask about servicing.
I personally feel that every fuel burning appliance should be inspected once a year. I don't care who does it. I have lots of work, not doing yours won't ruin my year. As long as it is done by a qualified AND competent tech. Note I said competent.
Very few appliances will run for ten years without some problems. A good clean and check will minimize problems, and allow for maximum efficency.
88%? I doubt it.To get to that range, you have to start condensing flu gases.Bad thing to do in a furnace not designed for it.
70 Mbh is a good rough guess. Another "test" for the potential contractors would be: "How did you determine the size of the unit?" If you're lucky, one of them will have performed a calculation and can easily document that fact. Given some details of the intended construction, a competent professional can run the heat loss calculation in a matter of minutes.
Opinions do vary.
I would buy Trane or Rheem.
Carrier has gone down. goodman improved some.
lennox has lennox specific parts.
i'm on my 1st winter with a heil. 125k 94% variable speed. works great,is really quiet. 2nd floor is a 50k 80% 2 speed,really don't see much advantage in the 2 speed. bought both on ebay for about 825.for the 125k, 450 for the 50k. also have 3 ac units by heil, 2 had holes in the condensor,1 worked great. don't know if this was how they ended up on ebay or what. both were easy fixes [no warranty because of owner install] but i will probably not buy heil ac units again. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Larry,
By "2 speed" do you really mean 2-stage? A standard (non-variable speed) furnace has 4 fan speed taps. 2 of the four are selected by whoever sets up the unit, a lower speed for heating and a higher speed for cooling.
If you have a 2-stage furnace the benefits are greater efficiency (sometimes), reduced cycling and a more consistent space temperature. When you need less than the full capacity of the unit to meet the load, it will fire on low, run for a while and either shut off because the t-stat is satisfied, or after a set time period, if the t-stat is not satisfied, change to high fire until it shuts off. To get the full benefit from a two stage unit, you need a two stage thermostat.
your right,it's 2 stage with a varible speed blower downstairs and a 2 stage upstairs. the variable speed blower is really quiet. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Wanna do us (me) a favor?Start the furnace, clock the gas meter (time how long for one revolution of the "smallest" dial - and what unit of gas does it measure) at low firing and measure the air temp (after a couple of minutes) coming out at a nearby register.Take the same measurements at the high firing rate.What are the results?I don't know about yours, but my church isn't a hotel for the holy, it's a hospital for sinners
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Our house had a Trane furnace when we bought it. During the inspection we discovered that the AC drip tray had been installed incorrectly. Instead of the condensation going to the side with the drain it was dripping on heating exchanger. It looked like it had been doing that for 20 years. The inspector could not believe the furnace was still running. Heat exchanger has some hairline cracks, but was not leaking CO2.
Needless to say when I replaced the furnace I bought a Trane.
Mike K
Amateur Home Remodeler in Aurora, Illinois