What building product is most overpriced
mwgaines
| Posted in General Discussion on
It seems like everything is costing more these days. We all know that supply and demand plays a role, as well as trade agreements that haven’t worked out to our advantage. But all price increases aren’t due to these things. Some are the result of just plain ol’ greed.
What building product do you think is the most overpriced and why?
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Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Replies
Simpson connectors.
At least up my way,,,,,southern Ontario.
Anything in stainless steel; Simpson's, screws, lags, appliances.
Greg
I'm not too sure , but I'm casting my vote for windows.......
The margins built into window sales from manufacturer in Minnesota (or wherever) to regional distributor to smaller sales reps to lumber yards are hard to comprehend. The poor guy or gal that puts them in makes the least of all and works the hardest IMHO.
agreed on the simpson hardware ...
just some bent up flat metal with a coupla holes punched in.
next on my list would be corian ... just some fancy named plastic.
then azec ... again ... just some fancy named plastic.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yeah, we get a product called "Tech Trim". 16' 1x4 costs over 20 bucks! I checked, I could get clear vg cedar for less. Another one is rafter vent chutes. We get cardboard ones sometimes. a buck fifty for enough cardboard for your average beer case.
I too just looked into getting some 1x6 plastic (12'L.) to replace some rotten window trim boards. Price was 26.00 for a 1x6x12! No thanks! Most plastic is over priced, including vinyl trim and everything plumbing related. The only reasonably priced plastic product are electrical boxes, and even there prices are substantially more than a few years ago. Used to be able to pick up duplex recep. boxes for pennies.
Yeah, for the materials involved, Simpson hardware is insane. Of course, you're really paying for the testing and code compliance. It's kind of like an engineer in a box. (Or a bought and paid for inspector in a box...) I'm usually happy to cough it up and move on.
My vote is bags of gravel. A 50 lb. bag of pea gravel costs significantly more than a 60 lb. bag of ready mix crete. Someone can probably explain that to me? Screening costs? I'm always amazed.
k
My vote is bags of gravel"
KFC,
I hear you on that one. But the quarry a mile away from me charges $7.00/ton if you have a pick-up, and they will even Bobcat it into your bed (easier on the paint).
WSJ
That Simpson engineering and development was paid for long ago!
"That Simpson engineering and development was paid for long ago!"
That's not really true. The engineering changes every year, with every new code, and with every new product.
It's the same with roof trusses - They look the same as they did 30 years ago. But they're constantly tinkering with design standards and codes. So it's ridiculously complex anymore. I'm sure it's the same with Simpson.
The very-good is the enemy of the great. [Rohit Khare]
Not to mention their insurance costs. One of the large plastic pipe makers has a deductible of $100,000.
Boss,Simpson seems to be the only co. making residential connectors.They look to me as the ideal thing to "knock off".Seems to me if I had a few laywers,,,,, a couple of lobbyests, an engineer, and a relationship w a sheet metal shop in China,,,,,Any competition w vendors for the truss connectors??Harry
Competitors are:http://www.uspconnectors.com/http://clevelandsteel.thomasnet.com/category/construction-hardware-division?There may be others I don't know about..Simpson has a pretty big market share. I think part of that is due to having good products. And part is due to a good marketing blitz - They have architects and engineers thinking they're the only one out there.
The world is full of willing people; some willing to work, the rest willing to let them. [Robert Frost]
There is a knock-off company on basic joist hangers but they have no-where near the broad spectrum of builders hardware available that Simpson has.so what yard wants to stock both - it just doesn't make it workwhile when they still have to go to Simpson for all the other stuff.
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Actually, I think the engineers have figured out a way to keep themselves employed. The concept of the Simpson products is simple. This is not building a space station or figuring out how to develop a biological/electrical/chemical interface between cut spinal cord parts. It's a piece of galvanized plate, punched out, bent, poked, and packaged, probably done without too much human involvement. I wouldn't give them more credit than they deserve, especially since most of what was built one to two hundred years ago without their products is still standing, unless a poor foundation was involved. :)
Based on what you said there, I'd guess you know little or nothing about how codes constantly evolve and how they affect the design of things like trusses and hangers.
Q: Why do cowboys want to die with their boots on?
A: So they don't stub their toes when they kick the bucket
Maybe if they'd quit changing the codes.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That was kind of my point. The codes get more and more complex all the time. (At least with respect to hangers and trusses)I don't see that changing...
Q: Why does it take one million sperm cells to fertilize one egg?
A: They won't stop to ask directions.
Yes....and who's driving the code changes? I'll bet Simpson does some really serious lobbying for code changes that make builders buy more of their stuff. I still remember the days in MI where joist angles sufficed and there wasn't a strap in sight anywhere. Those houses are still standing strong. How is that possible? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"who's driving the code changes? I'll bet Simpson does some really serious lobbying for code changes that make builders buy more of their stuff."
I've never seen any evidence that something like that is happening.
I was thinking more like the changes to the NDS, and things like that. Those things are drawn up using a consensus method from many engineers and building officials. I doubt Simpson has any more infgluence there than anyone else.
Your point about old houses that are still standing is meaningless, IMHO. We used to live in sod huts and log cabins, too. Now we have better ways of designing and building things.
What kills a skunk is the publicity it gives itself. [Abraham Lincoln]
>>>Your point about old houses that are still standing is meaningless, IMHO. We used to live in sod huts and log cabins, too.Not to mention that a lot of them are NOT still standing.
"Not to mention that a lot of them are NOT still standing."Maybe not in your neighborhoods but in the neighborhoods that I built in, that didn't use a single joist hanger or simpson tie, ALL the house are standing quite proud. That can be verified by using the google sattelite. Pan around the Metro Detroit area. You will find at least one million homes built there with "only" toenails and "joist angles" anywhere outside of the city of Detroit. Maybe it's one million "quirks" or maybe the old time carpenters knew how to put stuff together better. In any event, I've walked through many, many houses and saw floor joist installed without anything other than toenails and the house was functioning perfect without "joist angles" or "joist hangers" so someone must have been doing something right. The point is: requiring everything to be overbuilt everywhere is...wasteful. Maybe we should "green" up and stop wasting our resources. How much energy and carbons are needlessly wasted on items such as joist hangers in application that don't require them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
107027.53 in reply to 107027.50
"Not to mention that a lot of them are NOT still standing."
A lot of code changes have been driven by the homeowners insurance & fire insurance companies. They examine the difference between two houses in the same windstorm, and see that the one with the ties stayed together. The ties cost $1,000; the insurance company saved $500,000, the family saved their kid.
I want the ties. In your house and mine, and all the others.
And...you probably don't want to know that a million of those houses (probably more) are built on basements without sill plates or mudsills or mudsill anchors of any kind. I haven't read about any houses falling off their basements lately. None are flying into space either. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Your point about old houses that are still standing is meaningless, IMHO."It can't possibly be "meaningless". It is proof that the products are not necessary. If they were, those houses would be falling down. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I think you're way off.Does every house need a smoke detector? Or maybe only the ones that are gonna burn down need one?How about we don't design EVERY house for wind loads. Instead we figure out which houses will face a wind related incident in their lifetimes and just design THOSE houses for wind?
Liberty is rendered even more precious by the recollection of servitude. [Cicero]
Actually, I guess nobody knows as much about codes and trusses as you. So why should I even bother to give an opinion that in any way differs from yours? My contribution is like flatulence in a windstorm.
I guess I should just disregard the paltry knowledge I have accumulated over the years and become a BossHog dittohead!
"That Simpson engineering and development was paid for long ago!"They come out with new products every year, and liability goes on and on and on - like th energizer bunny
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A 50 lb. bag of pea gravel costs significantly more than a 60 lb. bag of ready mix crete. Someone can probably explain that to me?
Shipping costs from China. Crete is thousands of miles closer.
And, it's expensive to have those Chinese laborers polishing the boulders down to pea gravel size. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
And, it's expensive to have those Chinese laborers polishing the boulders down to pea gravel size.
When my daughter was a toddler, we used to drive past a quarry with a huge rock crusher we called the "rock machine." She used to tell everyone that the rock machine made big rocks out of little ones.
Didja ever visit any of those gravel pits around Oxford and such?
They had a big one west of there, closer to Ortonville where I used to get my trailer filled. The actual pit was across a road to the east where we would have to go to pick thru the oversized for fieldstone walls and things. The geology of a couple hundred feet of the layers of soil, sand, gravel, boulders, sand, etc. was amazing to see from across the dredging pit.
What I found most intriguing was the uniform 6' layer of big boulders forming a level band about 20 feet below the surface. All squeezed together like a jigsaw puzzle - naturally. The entire half mile width of the pit ran this layer.
Once when I was there, the dragline caught on some big something and pulled itself into the water.
I never acutally drove into one of those pits. That sounds like an awesome sight though. I'd love to see the machine tumble in. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have THE EXACT OPPOSITE OPINE ON sIOMPSONS'S HARDWARE. tRY BENDING THAT METAL, AND PUNCHING THOSE HOLES YOURSELF FOR A BUCK.oR COMPARE TO THE LABOUR AND MATE4RIALS THEY SAVE DOING IT THE OLD WAY WHILE MAKING IT A BETTER JOB.aND IT IS MORE THAN JUST METAL FULL OF HOLES. iT IS ENGINEERING AND DESIGN AND LIABILITY COVERAGE ALL ROLLED UP IN ONE. edit _ sorry, This disapeared off my screen just as I realized i had caps lock on.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 7/15/2008 6:29 pm ET by Piffin
Try building a good 18V drill for $50 - 100.
Try building an automobile for $20k.
Try providing groceries for an average American family for $200-300 per month.
Need I go on?
Of course we can't do it! Henry Ford invented the production line. Add robots, computers, cheap foreign factories and engineers --- what do you get? --- amazing economies of scale.
MP3 players that were selling for two hundred bucks a couple of years ago are sitting on the shelves at $20. I paid $800 for a 20M hard drive in 91. I can get a drive a thousand times that size and a thousand times faster for $20! Could I build one for $20? No, it would take my entire lifetime and I would not be able to do it. BTW, $800 in 91 is probably worth $1400 in 2008.
Paying too much for building products is like buying Zestril or Synthroid when you can buy the generic equivalents (Lisinopril and Levothyroxin) for a fraction of the cost. I know about these specific meds personally.
Finally, the companies that make these huge profits for a piece of metal that has minimal technical manufacturing requirements do not need you and me to justify the expense of their products. They have money, lawyers, patents, and so on.
Of course, if Breaktimers make a good enough argument to support the high prices, they may get a milkbone thrown their way.
http://clearstation.etrade.comwith a gross profit margin of 7% in an industry sector that averages better than 10%, and a return on equity of 8.5% in a sector that does more like 20%, tell me again how they are making outrageous profits.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Tyvek flex wrap, I think I just saw it today for $190 for a 75'roll. I can wrap my sill ro's just fine with grace vycor for a fraction of the cost. About the only place I can justify it is round top windows.
Anything with Dupot's name on it is over priced. Tyvek, Corian, Typar, etc.....
Vycor (but worth every penny so maybe it's not overpriced).
Prefinished maple plywood (almost $90/sheet for 3/4 inch)
I agree foruntaely I found a wholesaler of baltic Birch both pre-finished and plain here locally and the vendors suer do mark that stuff up.ML
Typar is made by Dupont? Has that always been the case or did Dupont (Tyvek) just buy out the competition so they could raise the price on both products?
Numbers are meaningless unless we have the big picture.
Joe frames houses and pays his crew $18. He has a new Ford truck.
John frames houses and pays his crew $10. He drives a 20 year old Dodge.
Both have the same bottom line financial statistics. They have different accountants. They are both legitimate businessmen. They both built $1.5M worth of homes last year.
Which one is the better builder? Which one has the bigger bank account. Which one has the best tools? How big are their crews.
An honest numbers cruncher could have a hard time giving you a clear picture that answers these questions and more.
A less honest numbers cruncher could have a field day with this.
I'm not calling anybody a liar here. I say that because some folks here at BT can have the sensitivity of the pea princess. We used to say figures don't lie, but liars figure.
Show me a large corporation that doesn't try to adjust the numbers as far as the law allows to try to portray a certain image.
you are suggesting that the corp is adjusting profits down in the reports they send to shareholders.Think about itwhy would they want to depress their stock price?now that you have thought for a minute about how insanely ridiculous that is, realize that Simpsons percent of profit is far less than most companies and less than what you are earning if you are running a good business.so your allegation that they make too much is right out the window.
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All corporations tailor their financial documents for the best possible effect on their business plan. Some goals of how they spend their money to get to the right numbers might be lower taxes or a profit image designed to attract investment. How they spend their bucks has an immediate effect on their annual reports. Surely you are familiar with these things.
Believe what you want. You showed your colours when you said that numbers are meaningless. You don't think rationally, but use your prejudices to do your thinking for you.
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The sage has spoken. What more is there for me to say?
So if Simpson is so overpriced, why doesn't another company come along and steal their market share away by offering the same product for 1/2 the price?They surely don't have a monopoly.BTW- I can get an ACQ-rated 2x8 joist hanger for $.89. To me, that seems like a pretty good price. Sure, some of the more specialized hardware can get expensive, but it is specialized, after all.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That will happen.
Well the price of a joist hangar is pretty inconsequential. But I've built projects that were full of Simpson post caps, beam hangars, etc. Some of them cost 70 bucks a pop. That adds up.Probably the people who really push simpson are the engineers. You have a beam with such and so end reaction, and you can just look up in their catalog what hangar to spec, and bingo, their #### is covered. Then the carp can hack it in, cut the beam a half inch short, and it still works. Kinda part of a bigger trend that's been going on for the last few hundred years: less skill and craftsmanship required in the field. That trend has been going at least since the factory made nail came along.
I think you hit the nail on the head Marson. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
$70 is a lot. I've bought some expensive hardware from Simpson, but nothing even close to $70.What was the $70 piece doing? Maybe my perspective is just different, bu the expensive things we've gotten were things like truss girder hold downs. When you need to hold down a girder that will have 2,500 lbs. of uplift, I would expect to pay a lot more than for a standard H2.5.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
For example: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/GLS-HGLS-GLT-HGLT_GLULAM.asp.This was for a commercial project. The second floor alone had 26 beams, each with either a hanger or a column cap. Hangers for that kind of project run into the thousands. Are they overpriced? Heck I don't know.
I got some custom hanger brackets from them once for 110 each plus UPS which is the part that hurt. My local steel fab shop could have made them for about the same price, sans engineering backup
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I have an idea that simpson has patented the connectors to the point that they cannot be reproduced by other companies.http://patft.uspto.gov
One of the things they patented which has helped their market share is double shear nailing. That allows them to get a higher design value in their hangers with fewer nails.
A saxophone is like a lawsuit - Everyone is happy when the case is closed.
Maybe it's regional, but USP has a decent presence in the area here. I've probably installed 1/3 USP and 2/3 Simpson. They aren't necessarily overtaking Simpson, but it does appear that they have significant competition.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Not to interfere with your lovefest going on, but I have seen examples of what could only be called manipulation.
I saw several of the inplantable device manufacturers meet their forecast expectations via the realizing capital gains when operations fell short. This is an area where we have little knowledge - what composes the firm's treasury. We see descriptions such as "cash and/or equilivants" or perhaps simply as "investments." Treasury stock of course is in there, but the shares of other companies are never disclosed - unless they are in that business of making their money from investments.
I know many smaller companies own stock in their public competitors simply to get any reports made to shareholders. The bigger ones do it too.
But when some of this stock has significantly appreciated and marketing slips or op's has troubles, the CFO can make a few trades, selling enuff to realize the necessary earnings. Sometimes a sharp analyst in the conference call can pointedly ask the question, but I've never heard one do so.
Commonly happens towards the end of a long stock run - or when spinoffs or alphabet stocks get involved (the class E common, class H common, etc.).
Have you ever heard of audits?
Have you ever heard of standard accounting practices?
If you have then you must ignore them because they don't fit in with your way of thinking.
Hve you ever heard of Enron?
Have you ever heard of cooking the books?
Have you ever heard of the sub-prime lending crisis?
Have you heard of anything other than how to pile on when Piffin's sacred word is doubted?
Have you ever had a course in accounting?
Do you have an MBA or MBS?
Do you have an undergrad degree in statistics or math?
Have you ever been to a stockholders' meeting?
Do you know how to evaluate a corporate annual report?
Do you still want to play "mine is bigger than yours"?
Whip em out. I'll have the archy measure them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This all started with a simple statement that Simpsons were overpriced. I had no idea I would be touching so many nerves! It has been fun though. Also, I still think they are overpriced. Maybe since nobody changed their minds, this was just an exercise in futility.
field verify all dimensions.
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
To answer your questions, yes, except one. If you have what you are asking, then you know better.
Let's just agree to disagree.
OK, but don't get so worked up.
Simpsons are way overpriced.
Trying to reason with someone who just wants to argue or insult, is not a reasonable pursuit.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
I am not disagreeing with you. It does appear that Piffen's post shows something a lot different though. In fact I was wondering why Piffen still owns the stock, as it appears to be underperforming?
Waitaminnit !You can buy stock in the simpsons ???
Trying to reason with someone who just wants to argue or insult, is not a reasonable pursuit.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Contact Piffen, he might sell you aome!<G>
Can I buy stock only in Jessica ?
Trying to reason with someone who just wants to argue or insult, is not a reasonable pursuit.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
just make sure they don't bait / switch ya ...
and U end up with some OJ.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I would like a block of shares also!
Ooh la la !
Trying to reason with someone who just wants to argue or insult, is not a reasonable pursuit.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
Piffin's got stock in Simpson's manufacturer.
Edited 7/16/2008 5:47 pm ET by rez
That is true, but I am arguing this from the standpoint of any other capitalist. When you guys quit buying them I will believe the arguement that they are too expensive. Until then, every purchase is a vote that, "Hey, By golly, these things save me a lot of work!"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Copper plumbing fittings, $9. for a 3/4" male threded fitting.
But a penny is still worth a penny!
"But a penny is still worth a penny!"
G80,
'cept a penny is copper electroplated zinc.
WSJ
True, but is there much more effort in making one vs a copper fitting?
and it is worth closer to two cents.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"a penny is still worth a penny!"
a penny isn't all copper, and they cost way more than a penny to make.
(If ya wanna start a battle, go to the tavern and start a thread that says we should stop making pennies)
When you are in any contest, you should work as if there were - to the very last minute - a chance to lose it. This is battle, this is politics, this is anything. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
TUCK TAPE why should a ^$%&&^ roll of tape cost $10, I hate red tape!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would also add regular tape such as the blue painter's tape.
Tapes is what I was thinking. The foil for Thermax, and the painter's tape. Some caulks are getting outta sight too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I just got an email from one of the electrical contractors I work with that shows the latest raw material costs for copper. It was $320/100 pounds in January, it's up to $386 today. Compare that to back in January 2003, when it was $75.
I just finished building my own house and I agree with the blue painters tape but the item I was most shocked with was hidden deck fasteners.
Runnerguy
Edited 7/15/2008 12:56 pm ET by runnerguy
Stainless joist hangers.
Houswrap. And that damn window flashing tape. The good stuff costs alot!!!
What building product do you think is the most overpriced
Experience.
I know it's cost me plenty . . .
Painters tape
Granite counter tops
clear pine
Multi Master blades (they oughta be ashamed of themselves)
Stainless fasteners
Festool stuff...I know it's good but Mamma Mia!
Cordless tool batteries....puuuleeeeese
Coffee price keeps climbing. I still won't drink the swill of yesteryear though.
Blue painter's tape. I mean come on.....$8 a f***in' roll?!
Azek and similar cellular PVC synthetic lumber products. I use it whenever it is really needed, but generally I'd say it is cost prohibitive for jobs that have budgets.
Same goes for synthetic decking boards. IMO, only appropriate for $400k and up homes. (I guess that would be $600k or $700k in large cities).
Many "green" products. Why should it cost more to do the right thing?
Along that line, I'm glad exotic wood like Ipe is so expensive. It's just wrong the way that stuff is harvested.
Edited 7/16/2008 7:18 am ET by Matt
"Many 'green' products. Why should it cost more to do the right thing?"
As I recall, when unleaded fuel was introduced, it ended up costing us more per gallon to purchase than leaded fuel. Quite odd since fuel is naturally unleaded. It should have cost more to add lead than not add it. I guess the most important green product (money) got top priority.New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
"As I recall, when unleaded fuel was introduced, it ended up costing us more per gallon to purchase than leaded fuel. Quite odd since fuel is naturally unleaded. It should have cost more to add lead than not add it. I guess the most important green product (money) got top priority."It is what they removed.Rather it is the cost of what was added to get the same performance..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The red sheathing/Typar tape: definitely a rip-off!
AFCI breakers!
Coated deck screws.
Stainless hardware- if you buy from building supply people rather than from people who specialize in stainless hardware...
Small quantities of any hardware.
But the worst recently was a box of fifty screws with rubber gaskets for use with plastic corrugated roofing- $8 at Agent Orange. Those have got to be the most expensive rubber washers in history!
Yeah, Tyveck tape. What a rip off. Imagine two houses wrapped with Tyveck. Ones got taped seams (properly lapped of course), the other doesn't. Do you think there would be any discernable difference in the end product? I think Dupont has a saying: "make it by the mile, sell it by the inch".
I'll add one more vote for the red Tuck/ Tyvek tape.We put a 80k addition on my brothers house and he went ballistic when he found out he paid $20 for two rolls of red tape. Took him years to get over that one. The blue painters tape, Durrock screws, Flexbond, MM blades, and have you noticed the gas prices lately?
Uh, magazines?
(Now I'll really be in trouble!)