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I don’t mean to keep posting these “problem cases” for you all to solve but I have another contract based question. I have a client who has decided to become difficult to deal with. They have taken my key to their kitchen, which I am remodeling meaning that as this one room begings to take shape I basically have to sit around and do nothing in-between coats of drywall mud as it dries. I consider going from access at will (they boarded off the entry to the rest of the house and we gain access through an exterior kitchen door) to call when you are coming, come every day, and once you get here you can’t leave, to be intolerable. Then, to top things off, I am delayed 6 days because the cabinets that they ordered and are responsible for providing aren’t ready. So I naturally pull off of the job bacause I still have to eat. To them this is unacceptable, I should be there every day cleaning up spots of spackle from the floor and to finish wiring the kitchen before the paint is up. So I appease them a bit, still taking care of my other interests, and come back full time to hang their cabinets. All of a sudden they are totally nuts! I can’t hang the majority of the cabinets because they won’t allow me to do so before the kitchen counter window goes in (its a retrofit vinyl, no fins just slip it in the jamb and fasten and they still aren’t in) insinuating that I am incapable of putting in a window without damaging their new cabinets. They further insist that I am not allowed to do any touch up (punchlist)whatsoever after their precious cabinets are installed so I have to do everything perfectly as I go, no mistakes or they lose their minds. So I appease them and hang the one wall of cabinets that I can (can’t install the countertops because, again, they aren’t there like they said they would be)and leave for the day. So the major dickhead and his wife track me down in town and show up to my other jobsite, a new development here in our little town that I may be able to work at for a few years, and proceed to scream and yell at me. He gets up in my face spitting mad, screaming for all to hear that I am a hack and don’t live up to my responsibilities, la, la la la thus and such. I ask him calmly to leave and he continues to get in my face screaming and yelling (he’s like 6’7 360 lbs or so) and I keep trying to keep him out of my face. So anyway, crist allmighty god, what now? I can’t go back there, if I do he will still be a prick and my crew shouldn’t have to put up with his abuse (me either for that matter). He technically owes me $2000.00 upon completion but I have learned from recent matters not to be so trusing of clients (and this guy is an absolute freak) but I could care less about the money. I am considering billing him for my lost time on the job and calling it even for the work that I don’t complete. He doesn’t have a job and couldn’t possibly afford to take me to court (probably shouldn’t assume to much there I suppose). I figure that I will wright him a letter, very formal, indicating the unacceptable conditions he is creating and breaking this off right now. If he did take me to court could I contend that he, in fact, was making it impossible for me to complete my job as specified in our contract? Again, thanks all for hearing me out, fortuanately good things appear to be on the horizon…..
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and the good thing is the train that's about to run you over ?
man, erik , you oughta write for the soaps... you jobs are much more interesting than mine ......where do you find these jobs ?
and then you always come forward with a nice contract that answers all the questions ...what ya got this time ?
WHAT kind of written documents exist ?
you can't just abandon a job, unless you get lucky, the guy can sue you and get a judgement that you'll have to comply with or ignore ....
not enuf info to give good advise.... but in the normal course of things , you don't have to go back, but you do need some legal advise as to how to establish that the customer has breached the contract...
what else ya got ?
*Erik....write don't wright him if you want to be proper and all...You need to listen to your client and acknowledge their feelings until they tell you that they feel bad for yelling at you...then ask them how to finish up and how they will pay you...Get done there and move on.It looks like you are not doing a great job of managing customer relationships...but if ya learn from your mistakes, you will get better...Don't work for people ya can't see eye to eye with...There's much more to this and it is also very individualistic in nature.near the stream having been there,aj
*Erik, Mike is right. They should be in the soaps. But, pleaaasse - make paragraphs and give an old man's eyes a break.Seriously, see if he or his wife have specifically breached the contract in any way. If so, note that in the letter to them to advise them that since they have breached their contract because of what you state, you are no longer obligated to continue with a contract that has been voided by their breach.I agree with you. Regardless if they are justified or not, there does not appear to be any basis for a workable solution that will allow you to continue.Incidentally, start using Easy Sand or Dura Bond 45 or 90 minute mud - 2-3 coats in one day. Using those products, on small jobs we get the drywall taped and skip troweled in the same day, or taped, sanded, primed and painted in the same day.Also, I may be getting picky, but since these people are so finicky, you should have cleaned up after yourself daily. Read between the lines of their statements. Even the mud on the floor is something I personally can't handle since it looks bad and ends up getting tracked thruout the work area. Remember, if they get the perception that you are a sloppy worker, (and I don't mean to offend you), that perception will be transferred to their interpretation of your workmanship and capabilities also - they will scrutinize everything like crazy and be perpetually anxious about everything you do.
*You sure you're ready for this business? No, really, I mean it. Sure, we've all had these kind of things, but you seem to have a corner on the fun.What I don't understand is how the relationship got to such a low point. I've had customers pull some pretty wild stuff, but I never had someone get in my face like that. They knew where the line was, I guess. You need to let them know just how far you can stretch. Like, before the face splattering.Start thinking like a professional and then back it up. In both your posts I notice a common thread; when push comes to shove, you help them shove. You better start right now letting folks know you are there to do the work you have been hired to do and that you will not expect anything less.In a word, communicate. Be realistic and concise.
*When I have a problem or problem client, I usually end up blaming myself; asking what I could have done differently to avoid the situation and then implementing those changes. Sometimes it means not signing clients that I should not be working for in the first place, but more often than not, it means managing expectations better. Read Sonny's process, or write a homeowner's manual that delineates every step along the way. Go over these with your client before you start work. Then meet or beat those standards. It should reduce miscommunications.
*Either there's something in the water in your town, or you are doing something very wrong and don't see it. Nobody should have as many problems, and as severe problems, as you have unless you are causing them.I don't mean to suggest that you're a bad guy, but it just shouldn't happen this way. Since we only get your description, and you obviously see yourself as the reasonable, rational one, we can't see what the customer sees. But friend, where there's smoke, there's fire. If this is happening with great frequency, you better figure out why.SHG
*I've got a bad temper and strong will. I will sometimes stand my ground until I'm broke. I'm stupid that way.I don't know what the situation is but with two jobs going so bad so close together, you've got to look at you and your company.I've had problems with clients. I've accidentally created unrealistic expectations, not clearly explained what to expect during construction, and done a poor job of making sure that the customer and I are on the same page. That's all my fault.I've never gotten a client so mad that they hunted me down at another site.Were you clear about the mess you'd be making, were you clear about the quality they'd be getting?, where you clear about your schedule? There's some reason they took your key away.And there's some reason you aren't living up to their expectations. Maybe their expectations were unreasonable but it's your job to bring them back to reality before the work starts.
*Okay. Since most of the threads here seem to be questioning Erik on what HE may have done to fuel this problem lets look at the other side of the coin.There are just some plain, mean people in this world who ENJOY twisting a persons tail. You can be the most professional contractor in the world, do everything right and still have that kind of crap poured down your throat by this type. It doesn't matter how well you think you can manage this type of customer.I ran into a similar situation a few years ago and believe me, it isn't fun. I felt the same way as Peter did, blaming myself for the problems. Then.........their 20 year old son stopped in while I was on the job one day. We talked for a bit and I told him his parents were out for the day. I was taked aback when he told me that was great, he had just stopped by to drop off a package and he wasn't about to stick around in case the 'Nut-jobs' were around.Sometimes it just isn't you who has the problem.
*Well, shithhowdy. You can say that again. There are all kinds of folks out there like that. In fact, I'm still incensed over how the ol battle axe treated me on a job I finished in May. Real nice to my face, wonderful job and all that. Behind my back she was just livid about how could I do that to her. To get my final, I gave her $1,200 extra work, this on a bid of $18,000. I even gave her my material discount. And she still goes on trashtalking me. I have had no less then five other tradesmen over to look at my work in this house and they all agree there is nothing wrong. They weren't all friends either, one was my fiercest competitor who I think is quite immoral and a liar. Anyway, sorry for the vent but she is really some hard nut. The issue is how strange it seems that Erik has back-to-back problem jobs, ergo, let's look at Erik. Looking at my job logs, I see it's about 3% of the people who are real problems. I imagine it's the same for most. I guess Erik just got lucky. I mean, he's good for a couple years now.
*Rich,Back-to-back problems may be more typical than you think. I also keep a project journal and I've had at least one problem on every job. Most were easy to resolve. Some were tougher. Two were damned nasty. The two nasty ones were back to back.The first nasty job was similar to yours. Nice to my face, knife in my back when it was time to finish. IMHO No matter what you think about lawyers, para-legals are by far the lowest form of life on this planet.Of the two nasty ones I should have known that the second of the two were going to be trouble. I saw the red flags but allowed the clients wife to talk me into doing the job. Not that it matters but to top it off the guy was a Postal employee. Go figure, huh?I think that when a customer takes the time to physically track you down just to intimidate you someone's a few slices short of a sandwich.
*The problem is that there are whacks in all walks of life, including contractors. Surprise! So you never know which side of the fence someone is on.The bet is, if he's constantly carping about others, it's usually him. Want to find out more, why not start a thread on the main line about "Homeowners screwed by their nut job contractors" and see what comes up.There are a few here, some regulars, who I think are completely off the wall. If I'd ever hired them for anything and gave the kind of shit they claim to give online, I'd hunt 'em down. Go figure.SHG
*Good points Sonny.In remodeling perception is everything. I use a similar psychological technique in my rough frames. I make extra, extra sure that everything that leads from the curb to the front door is perfect. I want the first impression of any homowner or vistor to be positive. They then relax and don't see all the other boogered details that are inevitably there.blue
*Blue, you're right. I was lucky. Just after beoming a handyman, back in 1971, I happened to read an article about installing wallpaper. The author stated that it was critical to make sure the wall opposite the entry door was perfect. The author's contention was that the viewer's first impression traanslates into assuming the rest is the same with little scrutiny.. Guess that's why workmanship of paint and trim work is so important.That old adage about "first impression."
*SHG,Why would I bother to start a thread about a subject such as that? Search the WWW. There are thousands of sites dedicated to someone with a gripe about their construction horror story. Theres one on the main thread already titled 'Unscrupulous contractor". Its not likely the world will ever run out of people who have complaints.Then again, why are there so many damned good Lawyerjokes? : )
*Not to brag or anything, but I'm personally responsible for all good lawyer jokes. And if anybody has a problem with them, get a life.SHG
*You live in California?(Why does CA have most of the lawyers, and NJ has most of the toxic waste? NJ picked first)
*Erik, I can sympathize with you. I have just had a couple of serious wankers myself.Maybe no face spitting,but still the same type of asshole.What I learned from these jerks is this; many people think they are hiring you as their personal employee.They do not acknowledge the fact that you are in business or that they are hiring you as a company.As their personal "boy" they expect you to do everything their way.This is where the grief starts.I agree with the other guys when they say setting expectations is important.But I have always verbally expressed how a job was going to progress.Sometimes this is just not enough.I just came up with a new "Terms & Conditions" page which I hope will fix some of these problems.It is ridiculous that we should have to defend ourselves against such gripes as work hours, trips to HD,etc., but unless it is made clear up front and signed off by the customer, these gripes will come up again and again.I also discovered that being anal about cleaning up every day pays off in the customer relations department. It is impractical, delays the job, and winds up costing the customer more on T&M jobs, but if you waste an hour each evening it will pay for itself in grief.By the way, I have never had a dirty jobsite,just never thought a job should look like an operating room. But I'm beginning to go with the hospital look to avoid the dreaded "anus argumentus" disease.
*Clean-up is never a waste of time. In the very least it is cheap positive advertisement for your company in that a huge amount of goodwill is made. Besides from your mention that clean-up keeps the owners at bay, it also keeps the neighbors happy. I know of some contractors who have won jobs and avoided the open bid because of the cleanliness of their jobsites. I have literally several times had jobs thrown in my lap, given to me, because of positive reviews of my work next door. At least twice, I have marched job to job right down a street because the neighbors saw how I conducted the jobsite.
*If the guys going to chase you down just to yell at you he's crazy.If he was really that pissed he'd whack you one. Some people are just really strange and no matter how good your work looks or what extras you give them they still think badly of you. I agree that cleaning up every day is a big plus to the customer. It makes everything go that much easier.
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I don't mean to keep posting these "problem cases" for you all to solve but I have another contract based question. I have a client who has decided to become difficult to deal with. They have taken my key to their kitchen, which I am remodeling meaning that as this one room begings to take shape I basically have to sit around and do nothing in-between coats of drywall mud as it dries. I consider going from access at will (they boarded off the entry to the rest of the house and we gain access through an exterior kitchen door) to call when you are coming, come every day, and once you get here you can't leave, to be intolerable. Then, to top things off, I am delayed 6 days because the cabinets that they ordered and are responsible for providing aren't ready. So I naturally pull off of the job bacause I still have to eat. To them this is unacceptable, I should be there every day cleaning up spots of spackle from the floor and to finish wiring the kitchen before the paint is up. So I appease them a bit, still taking care of my other interests, and come back full time to hang their cabinets. All of a sudden they are totally nuts! I can't hang the majority of the cabinets because they won't allow me to do so before the kitchen counter window goes in (its a retrofit vinyl, no fins just slip it in the jamb and fasten and they still aren't in) insinuating that I am incapable of putting in a window without damaging their new cabinets. They further insist that I am not allowed to do any touch up (punchlist)whatsoever after their precious cabinets are installed so I have to do everything perfectly as I go, no mistakes or they lose their minds. So I appease them and hang the one wall of cabinets that I can (can't install the countertops because, again, they aren't there like they said they would be)and leave for the day. So the major dickhead and his wife track me down in town and show up to my other jobsite, a new development here in our little town that I may be able to work at for a few years, and proceed to scream and yell at me. He gets up in my face spitting mad, screaming for all to hear that I am a hack and don't live up to my responsibilities, la, la la la thus and such. I ask him calmly to leave and he continues to get in my face screaming and yelling (he's like 6'7 360 lbs or so) and I keep trying to keep him out of my face. So anyway, crist allmighty god, what now? I can't go back there, if I do he will still be a prick and my crew shouldn't have to put up with his abuse (me either for that matter). He technically owes me $2000.00 upon completion but I have learned from recent matters not to be so trusing of clients (and this guy is an absolute freak) but I could care less about the money. I am considering billing him for my lost time on the job and calling it even for the work that I don't complete. He doesn't have a job and couldn't possibly afford to take me to court (probably shouldn't assume to much there I suppose). I figure that I will wright him a letter, very formal, indicating the unacceptable conditions he is creating and breaking this off right now. If he did take me to court could I contend that he, in fact, was making it impossible for me to complete my job as specified in our contract? Again, thanks all for hearing me out, fortuanately good things appear to be on the horizon.....