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What heating system do I want to put into my new home? 2100 sq. ft., 1-1/2 story, with a large greatroom with a Vermont Castings stove at one end. Near Seattle. Propane? Heat pump? What? Help!
No natural gas available in my area.
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Rich,
I'm a big fan of Hydronic systems, either baseboards with oil-fired boiler, or radiant floors with a big hot water heater.
It's more expensive than an air-based system, but cleaner, quieter, no ductwork to maintain.
Steve Zerby
*If you have an efficient shell your heating needs in the Seattle area should be pretty well taken care of with the woodstove. What I do to keep costs down and attain zone heating is to install Cadet electric fan forced hot air heaters in each bedroom and bath. They are relatively inexpensive and work pretty well. Take a look at this company down in CA. that has some pretty efficient systems also. http://www.comtec.net/index.html
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Steve Zerby I was thinking of radient floor heat do you feel it is expensive to run with a hot water tank. I received info from Radiantech and they wanted well over $2'000 for their tank. Also should you beef up the floor because of the extra weight. Terry
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Are you going to use the wood stove as a primary heat source and install an automatic system just to meet code? Then go with electric baseboard if you can stand the look of them and the constraint they cause on furniture placement. If you are not going to use them except for vacation settings, they've got a low capital cost.
But you just might get lazy and realize that it's a lot easier to bump the thermostat up than to fell a tree, buck it, saw it, split it, stack it, let it season, carry it in, and keep the stove fed. Then go with propane as the backup heat. A propane wall heater will be the cheaper way. A radiant floor the most comfortable. It's -28F in Kasilof, Alaska as I write this and I'm barefoot in the radiant slab basement.
You're in the best place (Coastal Pacific NW) for a heat pump (cheap electricity and mild winters) but again, will that wood stove be used very much? You don't want to throw lots of $$ into a heat-pump if it's only a back-up system. But a heat pump and radiant floor heating could be a really good combination. Modern radiant floor heating doesn't need the high temps that forced air does and that matchs the output of a heat pump nicely. Plus the thermal mass of the slab and your heat load through the day (greater at night) might allow you to take advantage of a time-of-use electric meter for lower night-time rates. -David
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Hi Dave Thomas. Spoke to you back in Dec. about radient floor heat, which you and Alex recomended.
Have received info from Radiantec, Infloor by Maxxon, and Applied Radiant tech. If you are just going to use hot water tank to heat will that be expensive. Should I beef up the floor because of the extra weight. Radientec wants $2300 just for the water heater. If you want to write contact me at [email protected] hope all is well terry
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You might want to look into Trane/Command-Aire, They make air to air, water to air, and water to water heatpumps. Since they make all types not just "geothermal" their prices are very good. I am using one of their water to air units. With cheap electricity water to water with radiant floors (and a water coil in an air handler for A/C) would be the ultimate.
*Hi Terry,I'm only reccommending from anend user comfort point of view. I haven't installed such a setup, but from what I read, it's silly to heat water to 180 degrees with a boiler if you are only going to use it at 120 degrees. Plus you get away from chimney requirements with a direct-vent water heater. I would think it would pay for itself in the long-haul.As to the floors, calculate the dead load of the gypcrete, if that's the way you are going to go, and see what the span requires. It never hurts to go up a size anyway, as code spans tend to be a little springy for my taste.Steve
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Rich:
Your question really has two parts . . . how to get heat into the house, and where to get the heat in the first place. To the former . . . I retrofited radient (floor) heat into my 1200 ft. house in Berkeley a couple of years ago, and would recommend it as first, second, and third choices. I used Radiantec (very helpful, especially their literature) for manifolds, pumps, and mixing valves, and Radiant Technology (Wescor, in Portland) for reset control, PEX and transfer plates (overkill, probably, but . . .).
Heat source is pure economics . . . capital cost of propane water heater or heat pump plus estimated fuel/electric cost for the service life of the system (cheapest is best). I'm using a domestic water heater, since natural gas is available here . . .
*I've heard that radiant heat floors, though very comfortable, can be a real headache if they spring a leak. Especially on upper levels. If your floor is on a slab, have you considered raising it up an inch or so and insulating it? That may be all you'd need for comfort. I'm all for a propane system myself, however.
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Rich,
Radiant floors are very comfortable. Most of the expensive controls and manifolds are not necessary. Pex water temp needs to be controlled to protect it and to produce the right temp floor. Pex should be purchased direct from manufacturer. The tubes can be fastened under flooring without all the cement using aluminum to spread the heat out. Floor needs to be insulated underneath. I did one install with Lars-Teledyne propane boiler combo tank hot water supply unit. The owners love it.
One important note. Radient heat is not for those that like rapid temperature change. It is not meant to be set back 10 degrees at night, nor would I use it for a weekend camp.
The other idea I like is a modern heating gas-log woodstove with built in thermostatic control. No wood, no mess, only buying one heating system. And it still produces that warm radiant comfort.
One other point. Every home I have built that was a semi open 1 1/2 story needed absolutely no heat turned on or delivered upstairs. They were naturally warm on the second floor.
Jack : )
PS BS! Heat pumps are ridiculous! Air temperatures at outlets are way to cold and drafty. They should be outlawed. Electric utilities have been the pushers of these wonderful things.
*Jack: I'm glad to hear your report about semi-open 1.5 story houses. That's been my impression from a very few examples (and what theory would suggest) so I've spec'd no heat for the loft of our open floor plan house with loft (groundfloor is radiant slab). But I'll have a bathroom and guest bedroom in the very back of the loft that are enclosed with partition walls and ceilings. My inclination was to put a fan through a wall into each room and a return register in the opposite corner. But my wife is allergic to fan noise so I relented and am currently planning on a radiator or hot-water baseboard in each room. Twould be nice to avoid the pipe runs and two more pumps or electric valves. Any opinions on a fairly large register, baffled to reduce noise transmission, into each room? In Kenai, Alaska. Design temperature = -40, like it was two weeks ago. -David
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David, I'm a fellow Alaskan living with radiant heat. I have a tall 1.5 story home, finished basement with large loft and open design. I strongly recommend providing heat in your loft. You won't get enough warm air rising to adequately heat the loft. Warm floors don't create the kind of convection currents that baseboards or forced air heating does. That's one of the reasons radiant is more energy efficient, your heating dollars don't go rushing up to the ceiling. I've tried turning off my loft zones and it stays pretty cool up there. Great for conservation, but not for upstairs comfort.
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Greg: Does your house allow an easy convective loop path? I'll have a cathedral ceiling in one area (air rising) and stairway in another (return air). Helped a few people heating with wood stoves be much more comnfortable by cutting a register into the floor for air to return from the far end of the second floor back down to first. Where that cold air could stay low until it gets sucked near the stove, heated and rises. Reduced temperature gradiants through the house from 20 to 25F down to 5 to 10F differences.
I take your point about distant rooms. With 2 or 3 cold, exterior walls and the low velocity of air (due to low thermal gradiants), those distant rooms probably do need their own thermostats and heat sources.
How about this heat wave, last week? 25F! 34F! Been running around in a T-shirt. -David
*An added note for clarity...Radiant slabs are much less convective than most other heat systems...I have not experienced a 1 1/2 story heated with radiant only but do agree with the Alaskans saying heat may be necessary.I install heat in all upper rooms, but in my experience, it's left turned off. Bedrooms are more comfortable for sleeping a few degrees lower than sitting, living areas.Controllable Heating Zones and heating capability equals control and comfort.Sleeping easily at night,Jack : )
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Old House Retrofit:
I am planning to rennovate a 24x36 home in northern Vermont that currently uses electric baseboard (ouch!)to heat a basement with three BRs two baths and an upstairs with two rooms plus bath. new home will add a second story with two BRs and two Baths. I am totally ignorant and need advice on a furnace and heating & hot water system that can use propane. thanx, Alex
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What heating system do I want to put into my new home? 2100 sq. ft., 1-1/2 story, with a large greatroom with a Vermont Castings stove at one end. Near Seattle. Propane? Heat pump? What? Help!
No natural gas available in my area.