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My sister is having a home built by a
large production home builder. It is a
rather large and expensive home about
3000 sqft and $250,000. She has a sunken living room and the framers didn’t take into account the step down when they framed the exterior bearing wall of this room. Therefore this wall was framed too short and in order to make up the difference in height of the exterior walls five(5) additional 2×4’s were stacked on top of the double top plate for a grand total of seven(7) plates. The builder thinks this is ok, I don’t. Is this an acceptable framing technique? Will this create problems in the future ie. drywall/heating?
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It will shrink more causing drywall problems. It will lose more heat. Your sister shouldn't have to pay for the builders mistake.
Cut it three times and it was still too short myself.
*Joseph,It won't make any difference for drywall or heating. It's a matter of a) poor planning and building practices, b)probably a code violation.Contact your local building official and have it checked prior to going another inch.This is a bad sign as to what the rest of the construction must be like.
*
The configuration you describe is structurally sound, although, as the others said, thermal transfer through the wall will be increased, there by making for less insulation than there would have been had the wall been built correctly. On the other hand, with standard platform framing methods used today (at lease in my area), this problem is very common. Window headers are made of 2x10 with wood spacers. Exterior wall corners and places where interior walls tee into exterior walls are either solid wood, or not insulated properly. As they said, you may want to verify with your local building inspections department that the configuration is acceptable to them - remembering that building codes are designed as minimum standards - not the best configuration
Opinion: What you describe is not a big deal. True, it should have done correctly, but…
You say " My sister is having a home built by a large production home builder. It
is a rather large and expensive home about 3000 sqft and $250,000"
That's roughly $84 a square foot. Doesn't sound too high end to me.
5 years ago we had a 3000 sqft house built for $217,000 - which might be about $250,000 in today's money, adjusting for inflation. Same deal - a large production builder. Throughout the process, there were many minor problems. Things were often not done as they should have. About 30 % of the problems I made the builder fix, about 30% of the problems I fixed, and you know what happened to the rest of em! It was the first time in my life that I saw concrete that wasn't finished on the edges. I could go on and on. As far as I'm concerned, the only true craftsman who worked on the house was the guy who did the stair rails.
Ok - let me cut to the chase - in retrospect - we got what we paid for. People working in production building environments more often than not are not paid enough to take the time and/or they do not have the resources to do an excellent job. If they were top notch, they would be doing custom "Fine Homebuilding". Not tract housing. You see, 80% of the home buyers these days don't know the difference. All they see is a few nicks in the paint - and that what makes quality workmanship to them, or not - and this is what the production builders deliver - cheaply built houses using other than highly skilled workers and 2x4 trusses. Then they change the front elevation, so the houses don't all look the same, put a few nice moldings up, give it a good paint job and a few other skin deep cosmetics and their niche is happy. That is the reality of it.
The alternative - custom homes built by true craftsman for $100 to $150 a square foot.
So each morning I sit and eat my Cornflakes and look at the piece of chair rail that is not quite level… that my wife has never noticed.
The production builder's saying is "Can't see it from my house."
The craftsman's saying is "I can see that all the way from my house"
Ok everybody, flame on!
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Gabe,
I'm not looking to get into the flame wars, but I see (and have seen) what Fred L 's new post refers to with regard to your postings. So here is some friendly advice for you and anyone else following this thread.
First, I like most intelligent people, start off by assuming everyone here is a jerk-off, at least as far as their building knowledge is concerned. Even though I have 17 years of hands on experience making a living in construction, I still put myself in that category sometimes. I have followed this site for I think about 2 years and have formed my own opinion as to who here is knowlegeable and qualified to respond. Figuratively speaking Gabe, I am not taking your calls yet.
Unfortunately, the same people who contract to build the houses described at the beginning of this post, will do no more research before picking their builder than before they pick who to listen to in this forum.
Thererfore, in my opinion, responses like yours above are a diservice to this board and construction in general. To wit:
"It won't make any difference for drywall or heating."- Untrue, whether it matters or not there will be plenty of nailing for the drywall. WRT heating, I'm sure that the wood has different thermal properties over conventional insulation.
"It's a matter of a) poor planning and building practices, " Poor planning is only your opinion, something else may be poor but their planning may be excellent. As to building practices, this is opinion also. Some folks I have met would just as soon have the whole wall solid wood, whether its better or not. I agree that in this instance, sunken living room, I would have framed the walls higher, provided the proper lenght studs were available. I recently framed a raised room, where I laminated plates and plywood to raise the room by seven inches. This could have been done with block but wasn't. In my configuration, lateral stability of the lamination was not a concern. Shrinkage is only a concern in that I used 6 more inches of across the grain lumber. Maximum shrinkage with soaking wet lumber would be approx. 1/4 inch, but more reasonably one 1/8". This did not pose a code violation in my area.
"b)probably a code violation. " Let's make sure before we start yelling fire in a crowded room. Another example " b) Gabe is probably a laborerer on a foundation spraying crew." You can see how statements starting with probably are only inflammatory and do nothing to elevate this discussion.
With regard to contacting the local building inspector, My guess is that he has been or will be there. Most areas of the U.S. require building permits and inspections. However, if I were concerned about a structural element of something I spent 250k on I would get an opinion from someone with the appropriate training, ie. a PE. I see many flagrant structural violations passed by unwitting inspectors. Their complete absence from this board (at least no one has admitted to being a building inspector) shows that there interest in building does not carry over into their personal time.
Also, A couple of errant plates does not mean that the builder is rotten. The builder may have worked his whole life trying to give people the best product for what they are willing to spend. With your response to a couple of lines that relate to about 1/100th of one percent of the building process, you are helping to undermine his credibility.
I hope that you meet lots of clients who want the best quality regardless of price, I seldom see them. Around here, its the same, people want about 80-100 bucks psf of quality. I think consumers need to take some responsibilty for the current state of the residential building industry. I know guys who build their first specs in the 300k range, with no prior experience in construction. It amazes me that someone buys them.
Any how, lighten up on the absolutes and harsh opinions. Be aware of the audience that uses this board and their level of experience and sophistication ( ie. "expensive home" 3000 s.f./250k"?) with regard to construction practices. Also, I try to ascertain their motivation in seeking a reply. In this case It sounded to me that the poster didn't like the multiple plates (wasn't he just meddling in his sister's project anyhow?), he just wanted backup to go to the builder with. I wonder if based on your reply he told his sister to go to the builder and take a stand on it. That would be stupid. I don't think that is what this forum is for.
Don't you hail from another county? Australia? Throw another shrimp on the Barby?
Happy posting all!
Tom
*Mistakes get made. The best fix is the easiest or cheapest one that does not compromise the building. In this case the multiple plates seems like the best fix; the cost was a little material and labor vs a lot. The thermal compromise is minimal. I don't no of any code that sets a maximum for the number of top plates allowed. I suspect that this did not even catch the inspector's attention, since things like this are quite common. This may not have even been a mistake. It could have been a deliberate solution to the difference in wall height.
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I think many builders like myself come to this forum for some new ideas and to help where possible. To rip on someone is not productive and may make one feel superior yet some others may think quite the opposite about the one that rips. We have one builder in town that can not say anything positive about people, and his work is crap, yet he thinks he is the grandmaster because of his "years"
I agree that stacking plates may not have been the best idea, it will shrink and may cause drywall cracks.Exterior wall would be like a solid header and not as energy efficient. Codes vary but this would have passed out here.Would I have done it..no.... first it would not have happened and if it had I would be eating it as we rebuilt the wall....I say wall not walls becuse it should have been caught no later then that. Strength like a post and beam.Cost at $85 a square...if built well a deal.
Have seen just the opposite where a tract builder put a sunken where not needed.....it was on a slab....his solution....cover the walls with tar paper and filled the hole with concrete.....and it passed.
I agree with one thread......can see it all the way from my house......
lighten up guys this is a place to help and relax
and have fun
take care Gabe.blow it off..
*
Maybe the best solution is to make sure that the drywall has no horizontal seams in the multiple top plate area.
*Good Morning Tommy B.This is a prime example of planting a seed.First of all, the original writer, indicated that it was as a result of an error that the wall had to be blocked up that many layers. This is called poor planning.Secondly, on a house of that size, can you tell me what part of a penny, for heating cost, would be wasted by having one wall with half a dozen layers of plate as opposed to one that has only two.Thirdly, how would having half a dozen layers of blocking have any effect on drywalling? It's only added nailing surface, so it doesn't interfere with drywalling, right?Fourth, I don't know what jurisdiction this house is in, but I do know that in mine, it's a code violation, so it "Probably" would be code violation where you are too.Fifth, with regards to checking out the rest of the work done by this guy, I don't know about your level of pride in quality, but if I made that mistake, the wall would be taken apart and a new one would be built right.sixth, done confuse short answers for lack of experience or not wanting to share information with the post. Sometimes a short answer is just a short answer.When you grade my responses, look at all the times that I'm the only one that takes time to answer a lot of the questions.Have your people call my people and maybe we will have lunch.
*This guy isn't going to get the master boogerer's award. I'd probably have put a continuous 2x6 header at the top, thus hiding the mistake, and I would have told the homeowner that they are getting a superior product, that will provide maximum flexibility, if they ever want to change their window layouts.At the very least, I would have put a couple of plates on the bottom. In fact, since I would have already had the pine hanging, I would hve been forced to put the boogering on the bottom.Blue
*Hey Blue,I don't hang the pine, but I do like both of your solutions to this problem. All hail the master boogerer!Tom
*Good Evening Josh,I realize you may not believe this, but I have nothing to blow off, I don't write anything in anger or to discourage questions from DIY's.What has happenned is that FredL, has planted a seed of hate and you fellows are falling into his pit of distrust. If you're going to read everything I write as being anything different than what you would experience at any jobsite, then you guys have the problem.Remember this, you don't know who this guy Gabe Martel is, so don't bust your ass trying to prejudge him, in the end you'll only look foolish because your actions will reflect on your own personalities.
*Hail yes Tommy....Hail, hail to the master boogerer....Blue, I'm writing your "Boogerin In The Midwest By The Best Boogerer Of Them All!!"...coauthors Barefoot Bill and The Blue Eyed Devil...with or with out you.Who is Barefoot Bill??...hmmmm.Near the stream,J
*BooogerersSlow down boys. . . if Bleu already had the pine hangin, he would have been forced to add five plates to the bottom, the continuous 2x6( which only equals 5.5" of the necessary 7.5" anyway) wouldn't have been an option, so what's the big deal. . . noi hiddenscrew up there. . .course you could swallow your pride and call it 'baseboard blocking', course the 'sparky's' wouldn't have been very happy! Now if he'd said he would've hided out to the almost-a-van, and whipped out his prized "M.B. board stretcher" and pulled those suckers out another 7-1/2" before the foreskin sauntered over. . . then I'd be mighty impressed. Always wanted to see one of those "M.B. stretchers" in action. . . we can't get them here in Ontario. . . not enough of a market I guess.i If it's still too short cut it again.
*Multiple top plates is not a violation of the UBC in California or Washington. I have used up to four for various reasons. Assuming two are required where you are and seven, as you say, is a violation, just how many are permitted? Are four ok and five not, or what? What does the code say?
*Mighty well informed... for a customer that is. Good posting.
*Patrick, per usual, you're behind the times... the new version is a Lumber Stretcher and is the version 2.0 of the old Board Stretcher. We'll be exporting the inferior/obsolete to Canada for you to duplicate (Similar to what we did with Budweiser). Furthermore, down here in the Land-O-Plenty... Blue's 2x6s act more like a Canadian's 2x8, it must be the exchange rate. Now if we can just convince you of the merits of two-wire outlets...
*GeorgeThere's no market here for lumber/board stretchers. . . we just don't f**k up they way you poor guys do. . . must a cultural thing. hee heeHaving never let a 'Bud' cross my lips I can only recount what I've heard, swill is swill, and them that drinks it ain't any weiser. heh hehBleu's 2x6's act like a Canadian 2x8 because of the moisture content. . . green lumber went the way of kraft backed f/g around here about 20 years ago. . .you're tweaking my interest on those two wire outlets, means having to break off that wierd round pin they stick on those plug thingees though!!You sure you're not posting from Mexico???
* ~Senor, Mas Cerveza por favor.-Guadalahara George to you. Buenos Noches.
*Sorry for skimming the details, I really didn't bother to do the math.Ok, Ok, I'd rip the exact amount needed out of a 2x10, and insert it under the wall, or over the wall.Or I'd add a plate or two, at the bottom, or top, and then a header. Sometimes the combination method is best. Each situatuion calls for something deifferent.If you're going to be a good boogerer, you gotta be flexible.Blue
*This could generate a lot of sales, and take me away from my first love...Boogerin'.Maybe I better pass.But that 3 or 4 extra dollars looks tempting...Blue
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well i try to put myself in the homeowners shoes when i sell my product.the homeowner paid for a flawless house and thats what i try to give him.if you contracted out your own labor(subs) it's kinda on you.Contractors are there to make sure the job is done right.My personal oppinion is that the contractor and the sub should both be responsible for giving the homeowner a flawless product.Thats what your paying for ,right?no matter what you pay per sq. ft. your paying for a flawless job and the builder agreed to do it for that price.i wouldnt accept any jury rigging.im not trying to pick on anybodys work we all make mistakes but when you make them, its time to bite the bullet and accept that you made it and go ahead and fix it right and be done with it now instead of having an ongoing problem for years to come.
well good luck,dave
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Joseph,
I think the key word here is "production" builder.
While there are certainly no shortage of "hack" custom builders, the nature of production building is conducive to "less than acceptable" workmanship.
Production builders work with smaller profit margins which make them extremely bottom line oriented. This orientation is usually reflected in demands on the subs for lower prices. So the subs aren't always the cream of the crop. And because of the multiple jobs, there is little quality control by the builder, "just keep to the schedule".
Most framers I know will pass on an opportunity to frame for a production builder even though it can mean steady work during the slow times.
As Gabe mentioned, you have to wonder what the rest of the job looks like, or will look like.
Talk to the builder about uor concern, ask him if he's aware of it and what he thinks about it? Talk to your local building inspector, it's what he gets paid for, and let the builder know you've spoken with him. If nothing else it will raise a couple of warning flags to everyone involved.
I'm not saying jump in and create an adversarial relationship. Just be persistent and let everyone know you're there.
If your sister is like most people then this house is the largest investment of her life. She is justified expecting prompt and satisfactory responses to any and all concerns.
*Seven top plates would certainly NOT meet the UBC "Conventional Light-Frame Construction Provisions" and is pretty shoddy. It could easily shrink a 1/2" or more accross the grain. Just because the inspector misses something or okays it, doesn't mean it IS okay.It probably violates '94 UBC 2326.11.2 which requires a double top plate and requires joints in the top plate to be at least 48" apart. I think you are going to have 5 or 6 joints in a line at the end of this silly wall.Imagine how stong an 8' wall of 2x4's laid flat on top of each other would be. No matter how well its nailed, it would buckle in the middle like crazy once a vertical load is applied. When you make a pile of lumber, how many 2x4's can you pile on each other before they become unstable? 7? 10? That number is a lot less stable than two pieces, which is the number mentioned in the code.Gary Wheeler, AIA, ICBO
*Gary,Take a deep breathe there...I'm sure the fix won't shrink a noticable 1/2"....That said, I think it's a big mistake and since it was found should be replaced correctly....It would take me no more than a morning to get this wall replaced and it's not that much in materials...But it definitely isn't the worst mistake ever made in framing...I hope I never make that big an error but who knows, I'm human.We here at Breaktime really have no idea how this house will turn out, but I can tell you one thing...If you and your sister and the contractor become adversarial, then you'll all pay for it for sure not so much in money but in stress.Near the stream,J
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This fix may not shrink 1/2" but certainly enough to cause drywall cracking. The builder and some of you guy's need to remember about the right way and the wrong way. It should be rebuilt correctly
and thats all there is to it. There is nothing worse than having to explain for the duration of the job to every sub and passerby why the wall is this way ..... no fun there and, if you think your electrical,hvac and plumbing sub won't be passing on the story of your screwup after all the extra work you caused them, you are dreaming and, that goes for so called continuouse headers too . Get with the program
*
Would seven top plates be more likely to buckle in or out? Would 20? Oops, Gary already speculated on this. Thermally, that section is going to be pretty bad.
But where else is the builder making quick and dirty fixes (or shortcuts)? Keep your eyes open, and hope the house wasn't finished on a Monday or a Friday. Might be nice to invite some independent eyes to look the place over before it is walled in. On the other hand, maybe this sort of thing is just part of the tradeoff in buying an inexpensive (by sf) house.
*Jack,The actual amount of shrinkage would depend on many variables, but consider that 1/2" would only be 4%. Across the grain 4% is possible. On the other hand, once it shrinks, it's shrunk. If the drywall cracks, fix it.Jerry
*So, how many plates are allowed per code?Blue
*Well Tom, you seem to have covered all the bases and more and have left little room for others to comment but what the heck? I'll throw in my two cents worth and let myself be called a "jerk-off" too...Depending on how the exterior wall is being utilized, I'd be concerned (from an engineering standpoint) of a hinge. Granted, with proper sheathing some of this effect will be mitigated but it will not be eliminated. This is really what is happening when that many plates are stacked upon one another. As I said, depending on the application this may or may or may not be an issue. There. Tom, you now have one more person to label. Sam
*Blue, it seem obvious that if 7 plates are worse than 2 then the fewer the better. Therefore, no plate should be allowed. Proper framing would dictate that each truss/joist be placed directly over a stud and toe-nailed to it without any plates.
*Sam, Since it is obvious that I didn't "call" anyone a jerk-off ( I just like the way jerk-off roles off my tongue when I say it, it really is a verb so as a noun I don't assign it a distinct meaning), rather I assumed that everyone is one, let me rephrase that for you. I assume that everyone here is representing themselves the same way that they would on a resume, its up to me to wade through the b.s. and see who has something to say. Tom
*Disclaimer: This is not intended as a flame but only good natured ribbing together with a serious question.ICBO. Wow. What did you do to get that title besides pay $235 for 3 years? Since you are an official member let me ask you a question that has bothered me for some time. Since the code prohibits studs less than 12" (or whatever the minimum is) and requires instead solid blocking, doesn't this actually require, in a wall that is very short but perhaps taller than seven 2x's, that which you consider unstable? As a contractor how do you deal with a wall that short?
*Good question mike.Where can I pay the 235 bucks to as I would like some cool letters after my name.Seriously, stacking plates or a short cripple wall were the two of the options I considered in the scenario I mentioned above. I had a one raised room with no step up in the foundation. Without laying a couse of block, I figured solid lumber was better than a 7" wall. What's the concensus on this arrangement.Tom, J.O.
*www.icbo.org
*Tom, My temerity just got the better of me, what can I say? There are just a lot of things that are not obvious to me. It must have been the nadir of the morning and a lack of caffeine. I'm simply not as perspicacious as you, forgive me. Thanks for re-phrasing this for me, it's completely clear to me now. I'll try and do better next time. Thanks again,Sam
*Tom,Who pissed in your wheaties this morning? Gabe types 4 simple sentences and you ramble on like an a$$hole for many paragraphs. How on earth did you take those 4 sentences of Gabe's and transform them through your own interpretation into such statements of irresponsible and blatently misguiding advice?Gabe can't be too off track, seeing as to how he really didn't say much. The only probrem I see with heating, or electrical for that matter, in this situation is trying to bore through 7 top plates to run from floor one to floor two.AND...it most likely is a code violation and an indication of this builders lack of desire to produce quality homes. I would INSIST on having it replaced properly. If the whole house isn't built yet, the lumber can mostly be reused on other walls and the headers (if there are any) can be reused in the new wall.You may also want to have a chat with the building inspector and see if this is acceptable before it is too far along and the inspector says tear it out after everything is built and sheathed.As for you Tommy B, I agree with one thing you wrote. that is that you are a jerk-off. Just like measuring, do the same and think twice before you you speak once.Pete Draganic
*Whoa Nellie! Theres no sense to start getting angry at one another over a simple little dropfloor mistake!The issue here is threefold. #1, Is the plates structuarlly sound? Yes, with trusses. No with conventional framing, especially a studio, or cathedral type system. #2, Is it pretty? NO. #3, Will it affect others? No too much, not enough to warant any concern. Would I accept it? Maybe, maybe not. Did I hire the guy because he was competitvely priced? If yes, I'd accept it. If the guy bragged about how much quality he delivers, and I paid more, I'd want it changed.Would I lose a moments of sleep, either way? NO!There will be additional shrinkage, and thermal loss. If I was truly concerned, I'd ask for a 50$ price adjustment, then invest the sum in the stock market (Fidelity Contra Fund). The 50$ will far out pace the loss in terms of energy loss, and the builder will be back next year doing the drywall repair, no matter how you build it. As long as you are using wet lumber, there will be shrinkage cracks!Blue
*Good Golly Gabe!What increadible reastraint. And politeness.After work today, keep your money in your pocket. I'm buying the beer!Dan
*Just to clear up my statement above, I typed this after reading the first few posts at the begining of this thread and thought it might go on that same page. This is in response to tommy's reply to gabe's post. An obviously unwarranted attack which I am sick of. These people are starting to sound like a bunch of old hens.Pete Draganic
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Thanks, Sam
I learned a new word today!
*
Blue,
I may be way busy to post in a few days...so do me a favor when you find such eloquent middle ground to stand on...Sign me Blue too.
Blue too, near the stream,
J
*So, Gabe, and others like Gabe that thinks it is a code viaolation, Does three plates constitutes a code violation? Four?, Five?, ONE?Blue
*Code vioalation or not, I wouldn't let it stay that way on my job. It is just shoddy workmanship. Plain and simple. I would be too embarassed. It is poor standard practice and reflects upon the quality intent of the builder.Pete Draganic
*Pete, it's a production builder, and it's not shoddy, if it passes code. It's actually stronger, if trusses are being used.Blue
*I'm startin' to warm up to Mike's idea; lets just get rid of those pesky plates altogether and start makin' things line up. Then when can sharpen up our skills at cuttin' blockin'........Sam
*Mike's idea is doable, but that block thingy...Blue
*Blue, Gotta' agree with you on that- the block thingy- tell ya' what, lets just skip the rock and go with the fancy letterin' on the itchy stuff.... SamNote: my grammer is lacking this mornin' 'when' should've been 'we'. Better get a little more coffee....
*Pete, Like I said in the first post, I don't want to get into the flame wars. Unfortunately Pete, you had better stop reading your own posts ( I don't think you read this one before you posted it ). Your references to urinating in an excellent whole grain cereal and your directed name calling are exactly what you are sick of.God help me if I set off that hot whatever nationality of blood you have, you've already told us in previous posts what tough guy you are. I think I liked you better when you were posting those pictures of your wonderful daughter and yourself. We could really use more enlightening and pertinent information such as that on this forum.Looking forward to the Draganic family album thread.Tom
*Bearmon, Great! Now I hope no one questions me about etymology...... :-) Sam
*Judging from the tone of the rest of this thread, I may be at risk of 3rd degree burns, but I offer this observation about solid walls and stacking lumber. Admittedly a wall made out of stacked 2x4s without adhesive or nails will not have the same structural resistance to buckling that a conventional stud wall has. However, log home construction is quite acceptable and generally structurally adequate in most cases. I once observed that a 2 stall garage had been built by stacking rough cut 2x4s flat to make the walls. Hell for strength and it would have been quite expensive except the wood came from the owner's wood lot and private sawmill. In fact many of the old "grain elevators" found in rural sections of the west and midwest are constructed of dimensional lumber stacked and nailed flat. They start with fairly large dimension lumber like a 2x12 and as the height increases go to progressively smaller width lumber. Many of these structures are 50 or more feet tall and have been standing for decades. Structurally they are quite sound, but the shrinkage could definitely be a problem. I never saw one (grain elevator) with dry wall on it.Finally consider a concrete block wall. Mortar has hideously poor strength in the tensile direction, yet they build 20 foot structural walls without batting an eyelash. Assuming the wall is straight, the vertical load actually increases the walls resistance to lateral loads, however earthquakes change the equations dramatically.If the extra plates violates the code, it probably is not for strength reasons.
*Gordon, Don't worry, the pain is intense at first but it tapers off after a bit. S.
*I'd leave out any wall less than 12" high, and use a rim joist for anything less than that. I think that was the intent of the code section.Yes I did do the 3-year ICBO thing, and got a three volume set of the code at the same time. I was going to have to buy them anyway. BTW, if you get on their mailing list, prepare for phonebook-sized packets of mail occasionally. As I don't work for a municipality, I apparently can't vote on some items.As for the AIA thing, I've been thinking about joining the Archeological Institute of America, keeping the initials and saving over $500.00 a year. I like the AIA because it gives some illusion of professionalism to the public even though I don't have a four-year college degree.I would maintain that anything more than a double plate COULD be considered engineered construction (rather than conventional framing) and require an engineering analysis at your expense. I wouldn't expect every inspector to catch this one however, it is kind of a grey area.It depends on how far it is between intersecting walls, which would provide lateral strength, but stacking top plates is like making a log house. Except that in this case most of the logs at the corners are not morticed together. And most log walls are thicker than 3 1/2".By the way, in a related top-of-wall item. I often prefer the company of building designers to architects, as they tend to me to be more "nuts and bolts" types of guys (or gals). One guy in California I met, Clay Johnson, invented an engineered combination rimjoist and top plate. 13 3/8" deep and made of engineered lumber, it runs continuously along top of the wall and is stronger than a #2 Douglas Fir 4x12 header. The idea is that you eliminate headers almost completely.
*"Whoa Nellie!"?
*Andrew, you obviously missed every episode of Bozo tha Clown when you were in your developing years!Blue
*
Being that we all are human, we all are prone to mistakes. Even the very best of the framers out there. It's not that good framers never make mistakes....they just never let you see them. The best course of action would have been to admit the mistake, bite the bullet, and fix it. I agree that the biggest factors affecting the finished product were speed and the bottom line. Personally, I wouldn't ever want to own a production house.
*
How come no one will tell me how many plates it takes to violate code?!!!
Blue
*Ordered one of those code flip charts from FHB just so I could answer that question. Twenty years of building for myself, off and on, never knew code, and because of this chat room I am starting to read the things. Yeah, I even have a contractors license and bond, and get permits. Luck I guess.Dennis
*Twenty five years here, and I've never seen the cover of a code book!If the inspector passes it, it's right!Blue
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Well at this point it's been 2 weeks since I posted this question. Since then without much bellyaching the framer has returned to "fix" the wall. He sawzalled up the side of each stud and left the two top plates in tact. Then he sistered new studs next to their shorter siblings and toenailed the plate to the new stud. Then he removed the resulting blocks between the stud bays and sistered a block between the old short stud and the top plate. Now it looks like a regularly framed wall with double studs at 16" on center. All things considered, I think the builder realized his mistake and knew that my sister would be better served, and the process of finishing the house would go more smoothly if this issue were corrected.
As for a code violation? The inspector didn't see the way the wall was framed origionally, so I'm not sure.
Anyway the insulation is in, the rough inspections passed,it's ready to rock.
Thanks for the feedback. Joe
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joesph,
Joseph Fusco
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*That's agood man that is framing that house Joeseph! The "fix" makes it stronger!Of course, the cry will be rasied that there is additional thermal loss, due to the inevitable loss of insulation space!Often, the actual time fixing is less time consuming than the arguing. Blue
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My sister is having a home built by a
large production home builder. It is a
rather large and expensive home about
3000 sqft and $250,000. She has a sunken living room and the framers didn't take into account the step down when they framed the exterior bearing wall of this room. Therefore this wall was framed too short and in order to make up the difference in height of the exterior walls five(5) additional 2x4's were stacked on top of the double top plate for a grand total of seven(7) plates. The builder thinks this is ok, I don't. Is this an acceptable framing technique? Will this create problems in the future ie. drywall/heating?