What is your max +/- for layout?
blownonfuel
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I would like to know what you guys consider close enough when doing layouts for framing.
If you have a house that is 40’x50′ how much can you be off of parallel and square while doing wall layout and still not have any problems framing the walls and roof?
Can you be off 1/2″, 3/4″, 1″, more?
If a slab is out of level 1″ over 40′ do you shim your sole plate or cut longer studs to keep the top plate level or is 1″ not even a problem?
Just want to know when it is not worth the extra time and effort to get it right on the money.
Thanks
Replies
i'm not a pro making a living,but what i have done,1" in 40 ft from being level,i'm building,thats less than 1/32 a foot.
40x50 rectngle i would try to be right on,easy enough to check and do,but if i was within a 1" i wouldn't lose any sleep,cause on a diangnol measure thats a 1/2 each way.
a crooked 2x can throw you off a 1/2 in 8'! larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Edited 7/17/2008 11:32 pm by alwaysoverbudget
Thanks AOB, Just trying to figure out when it's time to move on and not sweat the small stuff.
A 1" drop in 40 feet is more than id like but if it was a straight drop from 1 corner to the other corner id just go with it, trick is remembering as your framing that it does drop and not run yourself in circles trying to figure out why your sills arent perfecty level.
theres no way id custom cut studs to length to try and correct it. if i did correct it it would be on the mud plate(s).
The diagonel is easy to fix before framing begins assuming the foundation isnt off real bad.
I framed a house that was three inches out of square from 1 corner to the next. was at the second floor before i caught the mistake. i never said a word to anybody including the crew and nobody ever knew any different.
I framed a house that was three inches out of square from 1 corner to the next. was at the second floor before i caught the mistake. i never said a word to anybody including the crew and nobody ever knew any different.
How come you don't check the foundations for square from the start?
Joe Carola
lol. i knew that q. was coming.
the house was a big rectangle. back wall a 65'?long and 9' tall retaining wall. in the middle of that wall was a concrete walk in bunker/safe that was poured at the same time.
It came into the footprint just enough that we couldnt pull corner to corner. so we set up tall batter boards and pulled corner to corner at the 9' higth.
we checked it just like the foundation sat and for some reason thought it was dead nuts.
well wasnt so. wishful thinking maybe?
What about you Joe, when is it close enough?
One should be shooting for square, level and plumb, but sometimes there are just issues that are out of your control. If you want to be a good framer you learn how to work through these and come to a reasonable solution.Anyone with a tape measure and a level can build plumb, level and square, but really good framers take the sins of others and put a frame up that works.To answer your question, a 1/2" is about as far as I'd like to see, anything over that and it becomes more of a pain in the asse.http://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
Edited 7/18/2008 11:57 am ET by Joe
and nobody ever knew any different
yeah, right. I'll bet the rockers knew, the finish carpenter knew, and probably a boatload of other guys knew, before that house was finished!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I doubt it. iirc the house was 65x 35?. On the diagonal thats an 1.5" out.
ill bet the SR didnt pay an attention to it.
Painter never said a thing.
roofer didnt seem to mind.
And i was the finish guy.
I always fix the sill pate shimming as needed. And it's really not that hard to square things up.
If you start off bad, things can only get worse. Yeah you can live with it, but why live with it when you don't have to. There will be other things, that will come up that you WILL have to live with.
So don't use those cards up at the start, when really what are we talking about a couple hours spent maybe, shimming and getting it squared up? View Image View Image
Our motto is
Well begun, half done!
Mistakes compound! Yes you may save time at framing time,, but you'll pay dearly every next step. External sheathing, internal, insulating, etc etc. Good work pays for itself! Skipping steps costs!
That said,, there are comprimises,, rough framing is ,, well,, rough!
Gotta get it done also! Another rule of thumb-- split the difference.
When in doubt,, split the difference!
This situation is what the story of the Tortoise and the Hare was based on. Yes, we gotta "git er done" but I always preferred to start slow and finish fast. I always got a chuckle over the young bucks who wanted to just "git er going" without fully thinking about the later ramnifications. I passed many a young buckeroo up in the end game because of decisions I made early. This is one of those decisions. I always spend a few quality minutes with the mudsill. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I framed an addition that was poorly laid out from existing house. It was off square, had a hook. All the way up there was problems. The roof line was to be the same,, an extra half hour at the batterboards would have saved half a weeks headaches. Nevermind the flooring, trim etc etc etc.
Yep,, tortise and the hare! Slow down,, yer saving time!
Yep...I used to go out to the basements with one laborer and set the mudsills. I could get more done in four hours and get it all right than ten guys could do in the morning working till noon. They'd have it all messed up. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Mistakes compound! Yes you may save time at framing time,, but you'll pay dearly every next step."
A double ditto to that. Run into it all too often. When you're installing cabinets and your wall is an 1"+ out in 8' vertically and/ or you've got a long run of cabinets and a big bow in the wall, installation becomes a real pain. We've got workarounds for most of it and the final product looks halfway decent but there's no need of it.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. P. J. O'Rourke
Edited 7/21/2008 12:38 pm ET by jc21
Don't use crooked 2x4s.snork
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
With a steel tape I used to shoot for an eighth inch when measuring the diagonals of the mudsills.
The foundation guys were pretty good, I never had to put up with more than a quarter inch when leveling the mudsill. I used steel shims under the mudsill. Seal the gap with grout/mud if it's significant.
While it's tempting to plug along to get the walls up, any problems at the foundation tend to grow as you go vertical. Plus it's easier to square things up with your feet on the ground than it is when you're walking the top plate.
Thats a great question and there isn't any easy one answer. Like others have shown; do the math. When the lengths are long, the average error is small. If it's small enough to be invisible, it's good to go.
The goal is to make things look good. I used to tell my guys, "if it looks right it is right." Translated: if you have to put an instrument on it to decide if it's wrong, then it's right. Or, if you have to bend down and get your nose within 10" of it to see if something is wrong, you might get the the boot.
You decide your own standard of quality. If you stress too much about perfection, you might not finish the project in your lifetime.
One hint: when you discover something out of plumb or level a little bit and decide to leave it....DON'T TELL EVERYONE ABOUT IT! THEY DON'T CARE!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
and NEVER leave your level laying on something that isn't....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
For shimming on a slab, we use a double bottom plate, bolt down the base plate and shim between the two.
On layout, it depends on the room. Bathrooms and kitchens need to be darn near perfect. 1/8" or so.
Most places within 1/4" is right by me, but I have had to trim places that had been framed within 2"!
And I have seen concrete guys who think 2" plus or minus is standard! they don't get it.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
What advantage does the doubled plate offer you? I know I've tried that in the past but I can't remember if we found any advantage. When we landed here in Austin, we found out that some foundation guys aren't very adept at square and level LOL. Our first shell package had us framing on a small addition that was about 1 or 2" out of square. Like Jon mentioned, we squared everything up on the line snapping phase. That upset the homeowner, who was a tad finicky and didn't like the walls hanging over the edge of the slab, or hanging in. We made him pick his poison since it was his slab crew that did he foundation.As you know, we frame and sheath the walls before standing. When done like that, they are perfect squares and perfectly straight on the top and bottom plates. When we stood them, they were about 1.5" out of level in 24'. That's not good. We steel shimmed the wall level. That automatically plumbs our corners. Life is good again. Very simple. We then shim under each bearing point, including all studs. Then we bolt with shims near the bolts. The voids are filled with insulation, grout or foam or whatever. This is all done with a single bottom plate. I would do the same with a doubled plate except that the bolts would not need any extra shims. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
we squared everything up on the line snapping phase. That upset the homeowner, who was a tad finicky and didn't like the walls hanging over the edge of the slab, or hanging in. We made him pick his poison since it was his slab crew that did he foundation.
Jim,
Since that was the HO, I would've said that I'm making my framing square and could care less about the foundation making his new foundation out of square. Why, because if there was ever a problem down the road with the HO and they pointed out that you framed a new addition out of square, you could have problems.
I could just see it when they put the oak floor or tile down and it goes from a full piece to 1" shorter on the other side. Kitchen cabinets don't fit because the new walls are out of square.
Point is, that no matter what the foundation is as a framer we are to make our new framing square. If Mr HO still didn't want it square, I would make him sign a waiver.
Any who doesn't square up a foundation.
Joe Carola
I once framed a large commercial building that was almost 2' out of square. It was 80' wide and maybe 200' long with reverse gables over every tenant space. We could see the acute and obtuse angles on the foundation blockwork before we started our first wall. After a quick check to verify what we were seeing, we did the calcs and asked the GC what he wanted us to do. He said "build it on the existing blockwork." He explained that the owner of the building didn't want to use the GC's normal foundation contractor and had contracted with his own engineering firm to layout the building and supervise the foundations LOL! I learned a lot about how to cut fascias, soffits and frieze boards by eye to fit. Every entry had multiple Queen Ann hip returns and I made them look good but every joint in the soffit was a challenge. The building is still standing and it looks good from my house. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"The building is still standing and it looks good from my house."Your new house in Austin?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jim,
I here you about correcting out of square framing. I once framed an Add-a-Level that from what I remember the first floor was about 2" out from front to back.That was also the way the rafters went. I told the HO that if we followed it his whole second floor would be out and we would just adjust walls so that it really wasn't noticeable. He didn't like that. I suggested to frame a roof around the perimeter sitting on the shoe and we could hide it in the soffit. He like it and that's what I did making a few adjustments.
AAL's are the ones that can be a PITA because you have to match existing conditions and line up the second floor with the first floor. When running cedar siding the walls have to line up. Some AAL's can be 3/4" to 1" out of parallel.
If that happens, let's say that the house is 32' on one side and 32'1" on the other side I will split the difference and use 32'1/2" for my span and cut all the rafters the same. You never notice it.
Joe Carola
I know it sounds terrible but we don't anymore. The foundation crews are so bad, the GC's are so cheap, we stopped.
The critical rooms are made square or as best as we can do.
We have had house as much as 4" out of square. If the homebuilders would stop nichol and diming us, they would get square. This brings up the point about the foundation guys. I think they have been pushed on price, that they don't care either.
Yes it is much easier to frame a square foundation, and we do for the builders that understand that we have to make a living.
If you have a builder that is constantly told that his foundation contractor doesn't know how to square a foundation, how long are you going to bang your head?
I wonder if you have seen any foundation guys using gps to square foundations, and if you have what has been your experiances w/ this?
Not yet, but I have been laid up for 2 years now. I will ask the guys I worked with next time I talk to them. They are working on a large condo project now.
Have you?
I have heard about it "gaurenteed square" But yet to experiance it.
I thought they were only accurate to about a yard.
Think it's a lot closer than that now but don't know if its good enough to lay out a foundation tho.......
I've worked with a surveyor who uses GPS for rough work, but layouts are always done with an optical/laser Total Data System. He doesn't have a $100,000 GPS, and I doubt cribbers would either.
GPS gives him +/- 4 centimeters, iirc. I hear the super duper high end ones can get you within a few millimeters.
TDS laser measurements are to the mil (<1/16"), in distance and elevation.
Doesn't sound like GPS is going to give the framers that within 1/32" of square they're always hollering about. <g>
you never heard me talking about6 that close a tolerance. I live in the real world where 1/8to 1/4 is close enough, in most instances.
Sigh........did you see the <g> at th end of the post?
The humor challenged are everywhere these days.
<G>
benefits?first in mind is that the crete guys set the anchor bolts all at same depth so if the plate needs an inch of shiming, there is almost nothing left to bolt down If your crete guys are leaving 3-4" of anchor bolt showing, then that is not a concern.It also allows me to drill the holes in the sole plate and seat it al alone, befored the guys show up. Then they are ready to rock and roll on straight forward framing. One of those things that works or not acccording to crew dyunamics.Also, we get into alot of bassement walls retrofit in old houses so that is a standard method we use for placing walls into place without a BFH whacking them around. Having a PT sole to shim up on makes it an easier fit.Sum of all answers - for the way we work and think, it is easier way to get the job done.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Over at JLC, someone once was talking about setting up a chalkline level at the top of the stud height, holding the studs in place one by one and tapping them against the line to custom mark each stud. Sounds like a cool idea, but it seems like a lot of monkey business. Course when a slab is whacked, you're in for monkey business no matter how you do it.
Marson,
I've mentioned that many times years ago here and over there because that's what I do and there's no monkeying around. It works very simple. No shimming at all.
Joe Carola
Well, I'm going to try that one of these days. Do you use an ordinary chalk line? Do you have to hold a level on the studs to keep them plumb, or is the eyeball sufficient?
I've used a variation of that method. I've also used that method too. Occassionally, we had wandering stem walls on daylight basements. So, I'd use the chalkline method. Sometimes, getting that chalkline rigged at the top plate level was more work than I wanted to do. So, I'd stretch a level line at the top of the stem wall and just do a quick =/- calculation at the nice comfy working height. For instance, if I had the string line blocked up 1 1/2" and I measured 1 3/4", then I'd add a 1/4" to that stud. To add the quarter, I'd simply make the cut 1/4" longer by eye. All the studs were marked the same length with the pattern or tape. All the adjustments were done by eye after a quick check on the line to see if it was 1 1/2". Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Marson
For years we used the stringline method of cutting kneewall studs, with great success. It was time consuming, but considering it was not uncommon to have walls out of level an inch or so, it saved a lot of shimming.
Today we use a PLS 360, stand and mark each stud in place, and cut in place. NO shims at all. I hate up and down kneewalls, they follow me throughout the house.
Greg In Connecticut
You don't say what kind of house this is. If you are hand framing the roof, putting steel roofing on, plywood soffits, then square is important. I'd say the diagonals should be within 1/4". If it is a one story house with roof trusses, flat aluminum soffits, timberline shingles, etc, even an inch out of square is not detectable in the final product. Heck, it could probably be 2" out and noone would know but the sheetrock hangers, and they wouldn't care. But you have to know your finish materials. If you are putting in a tiled shower with 1"x1" tiles, then perfection is required. Likewise, long ell shaped countertops work best on square walls. So it depends.
1" out in 40' is not great, but it is buildable. That kind of depends too. If you have long banks of windows, for example, level helps a lot.
Frames accurate to within a 1/4" difference or less on the longest diagonals.
Level is Level .
Do I always achieve that? No, but it is what I aim for and will take time to achieve. I have had some bad ones in my career (like a couple of foundations that someone "burned" a foot when reading one diagonal and didn't "burn" the foot on the other diagonal) Those are times people made mistakes not times I simply got lazy and said "close enough"
Personally I always ask myself the same question. "If 1/2" is close enough then why not 1" or maybe 3-4", heck why not a couple of feet?".
When do you quit compromising with the quality of the trade you practice? Is it really that much harder or time consuming to get it right?
I shoot for within an eighth on level and square.
Is this necessary? No. So why do it?
Let's say you're framing on a slab on grade. You have to check for square and snap lines before you start standing walls, right? So why not snap your lines square?
What you're building is also a factor. As Marson said, some finishes are more demanding than others- it's important to recognize what level you should be shooting for. A flat roof will work on pretty much any parallelogram or trapezoid, but a octagon or dome will kick your butt if you're not starting off right.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I remember in your other post you said the slab was out of level an 1" to line up with the existing floor. correct? if so then does that mean the roofs need to line up? if so an 1" will definately cause problems and be noticed. but what do i know it looks real good from my house!
I spent one year as a layout person for a large concrete contractor. On diagonals no mater 20 feet or 200 feet always stayed within 1/8". On footer elevations +/- 1/4". On foundation elevations +/- 1/8". When laying out framing always made everything square. always used a calculator to get the diagonal figure and when done checked the other diagonal to make sure I was right.
that the way we do it too, within 1/8
I've pulled diagonals to check square against the opposite diagonal in the past.
But if I know what teh length and width are to be, what is the formula to determine the diagonals in lieu of comparing them against each other.
ML
Think of a right triangle, a2+b2=c2
Yep, a2+b2=c2 is a beautiful formula.
Good for squaring up, determining rafter and stringer lengths, braces.....many things that carps do everyday.
Friend of mine visually 'proved' the concept to me:
First, he drew a triangle where there is a 90 angle between the a and b sides. The c side is the diagonal (or hypothenuse).
Then he drew a square to match each of the triangle's sides. The area of each of the squares is, respectively, a2, b2, c2.
So you end up with a single figure made of the original triangle, onto each side of which is grafted a square whose own sides are equal to the matching side of the triangle. So the triangle is in the middle, the three squares-a2, b2, c2-are like flower petals. Now take your scissors and cut each of the squares away from the triangle.
Overlay the two smaller a2 and b2 squares onto the bigger (the c2 square) and if you cut and fit some, you will see that a2+b2+c2.
Brilliant visual proof that the formula works. Now if only I could remember how to work sine and a cosine, which is faster yet. :-)
Now if only I could remember how to work sine and a cosine, which is faster yet. :-)
Or just use a Construction Master Calculator....;-)
Joe Carola
CM is my default mode - great tool.
I sleep with mine..........;-)
Joe Carola
You must have a lot of ex's if you have the latest version.;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I wrote an excel program using the forumla so you entered the actual measurement between a, b, c and it would tell you how far to move a or b. it would work with 200 foot measurement or 10 inch box measurement
Excel on the jobsite - bb, you must have the luxury of a site office. Be interesting to see your formula.
I just keep tapping the wall till the measurements equal out, which means a bit of back and forth as I don't frame new often enough to intuitively know by how much to move the wall. Sure helps the diagonals when the plates are cut to exactly the same length, and you've remembered to pin the bottom plate down, otherwise it turns into a wild goose chase. ;)
As we have all agreed: Simple things to pay attention to, with a huge payoff in peace of mind and cost control.
Would you post your spreadsheet here?It would be interesting to see....
Leadership is not about being nice. It's about being right and being strong [Paul Keating, Australian Prime Minister]
Thanks I was at the Angels/ Indians game last night and bet my brother the distance from home plate to 2nd base. He guessed about 110' I pulled out my phone and did the math right quick and made an easy $5.00
Thanks for the help.ML
blownonfuel,
It really depends.. I've known framers who sweat over an eigth of an inch and they seem to never make money framing.. The most productive framers I know seldom took out their tape measure. They could frame up and install windows and doors in a 2500 sq.ft 2 story house in 4 days. I sold them a new $75,000 (then) telehandler and they paid for it in less than a year. On average the three of them grossed over a million and a half per year according to my calculations..
They were so good and fast that the building inspector usually came by friday morning with the permit already signed off..
The general contractor was so happy with their work that they always got first pick of jobsites etc.. standard framing period was 2 weeks to do the same thing.. They built using wood straight off the pile plus or minus whatever length it was..
I was exceedingly fussy when I started my place. Taking a total of 8 hours per timber to ensure they were dead straight and the correct size. A lot of planning and shaping was involved. I sweated the small stuff and made sure everything was plumb level and true.
About three years into it I noticed a wall that I was absolutely sure had been plumb and level bow inwards by over 7/8ths of an inch. Turned out several timbers had bowed as they dried and pulled the wall in that much. Today that same wall is less than 3/8ths of an inch bowed. but for almost 4 years I thought about tearing down that wall to correct the problem..
I have a major interior timber that has developed a sizeable crook to it and as a result one side of my bridge is a full 3/4 of an inch lower than the other side.. that's clearly noticable.
However I like the character it gives the area. It softens what could otherwise be a somewhat industrial appreance. I'll deal with the differance in the steps leading down onto the bridge and still wind up with a safe, legal set of steps.
My point is that seldom are homes true plumb and square.. Final trim adjustments must be made in every home. If we built with steel it could be much more accurite but we don't. Wood is flexiable and it shrinks and swells dramatically thru the moisture cycle..
Thanks Frenchy.