Replies

1. 
   calvin | Oct 01, 2003 01:37am | #1

   Kevin, can you explain any passive details you used in the design to further achieve energy efficiency?  Examples I'm thinking of would be shading of the glass from overhangs, plantings, shape and siting of the house.  These sometimes simple and pleasing to the eye additions can certainly add to efficiency while ignoring them could lead to defeating some of the gains found in a search for better glazing.  I see you did some similar thought as far as only one side casement opening.  I'm not real sure of your climate down there other than you probably are concentrating on cooling.  Any passive solar gain figured for the winter months?  Thanks.

   Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Oct 01, 2003 02:07am | #2

   kevin.... sounds like a great spec...

    my only question would be what's their track record ?

   20 years goes by pretty fast... will traco still be servicing their customers  in 20 years.. i bet andersen will be

   i've seen so many snazzy windows come and go.... latest and greatest... but most fall by the wayside... Andersen... Marvin... Eagle....Pella.... still standing behind their product...

   others change specs so fast it's almost impossible to service them... like weathershield.... i finally gave up trtying to order anything from weathershield after the third customer was disappointed... they have no idea what product they have in the field.... Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 01, 2003 02:43am | #4

   It depends on your local dealership I suppose. Pella hasn't earned too many customer service accolades around here and from other's I've talked to in other regions of the good ole' USA we are getting comparably great Pella service.

   That said, track records are very important. None of the manufacturers you mentioned use Heat Mirror yet though. At least not that I'm aware of. Surprisingly, they don't rank up there with the top energy performers on the National Fenestration Rating Council's web site either.

   Gilkey, Kensington and Thermal Industries seem to hold top sway at NFRC.

   They are good windows but not what I was after and certainly not in the budget range I needed them to be in. The windows I speced won't exactly pay for themselves in energy savings but they will sure come a lot closer than the other high priced but lower performing "windows of reputation" you mentioned. Quality has many measures.

   My top criteria was energy performance per dollar spent. Traco's were a long way from the cheapest option I considered and a long way from the most expensive too. I was very impressed with their construction. I looked at a lot of windows and the Traco's are built right. There are definitly "higher end" windows out there but the premium cost is not always justified. Especially when the "better" windows don't hold a candle to the "lesser" ones in real world energy performance.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Oct 01, 2003 03:26am | #6

   my 2d favorite window was Hurd... my distributor dropped them because of a business arrangement...

    Hurd is very big on heat mirror... and has a longer track record than traco... have you checked out hurd...

    too bad about pella.... i've never liked them either... but they have been around and you can still get parts out of their inventoryMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 01, 2003 04:47pm | #7

   Sorry, never heard of Hurd but that doesn't mean much. I was a little surprised that their quad glazed, krypton filled, wood framed casement only achieved a U-value of .32 (R-3.125) when subjected to NFRC testing. Their vinyl window with Heat Mirror SC75 only scored a .30 (R-3.33) and their top U-value performer looks to be their argon filled vinyl using the TC88 heat mirror at U-.26 (R-3.85). They elected not to score the optional Solar Heat Gain Coefficient capabilities of their windows. These are not bad numbers but they are hardly indicative of the capability of Heat mirror.

   I suspect one of the problems is that they are only using a 3/4" glazing thickness. I would have specified a 1 1/2" wide glazing thickness (the maximum frame and sash width currently available to my knowledge) if it had been in my budget. The wider frames are rare and more expensive.

   The NFRC ratings don't always tell the whole story either - Traco's best NFRC number was a Vinyl frame, Krypton filled heat mirror unit (doesn't indicate which Heat mirror but I'm betting it was the TC88) that scored a U-value of .21 (R-4.76). Traco didn't provide the SHGC numbers for their window either which was kind of frustrating because the SHGC number was the most important rating to me in the West Texas climate.

   The problem is, it is very expensive to certify a window with NFRC, and specific configurations are virtually limitless, so the probability of finding the exact, custom configuration I specified on the NFRC site was pretty slim with any manufacturer. That is why I had to rely on software testing using Window 5.2. Software testing is obviously not as reliable as real world NFRC numbers but it beats pulling a number out of your hat and it certainly allows you to compare different configurations against each other to arrive at the best spec for a given situation.

   The Window 5.2 software is a free download here: http://windows.lbl.gov/software/window/window.html

   No doubt there are some great vendors out there that I've simply never heard of because of my limited exposure. I appreciate you bringing a few additional quality vendor names to the table as well.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

2. 
   geob21 | Oct 01, 2003 05:45pm | #9

   Mike I couldn't agree more. I've had 2 customers in the past week that are faced with having to replace 10 year old windows because either they weren't made to be repaired or the manufaturer and no one else has parts.

   Ever try to get 10 year old atrium door parts or adjust the hinges? Don't bother it's easier to replace the door.

   ___________________________________________________________

   If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?

3. 
   DenverKevin | Oct 23, 2003 08:38am | #21

   My rep told me Hurd has recently dropped heat mirror.  Apparently not enough customers thought it was worth it , so they couldn't justify offering it.

4. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 23, 2003 03:54pm | #23

   With the U-values Hurd was achieving it probably was difficult for them to justify the added expense of heat mirror on a Hurd window. I can't understand why they weren't getting better performance with it but I suspect it was simply because they don't have a wide enough frame and sash to take full advantage of it. There are other factors that make Heat Mirror a great product besides the insulation value but the U-value numbers are kind of like square footage in real estate - It's what everybody looks at first.

   A wider air gap is still one of the most effective ways to bump the insulation capabilities of a window. The heat mirror lets you achieve a triple glazed unit without the added weight of the third piece of glass. If the manufacturer doesn't increase the width of the frame and sash to create two wider pockets of air, vs. the same width pocket as their double glazed just divided in two, they really don't take full advantage of Heat Mirror's potential.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

5. 
   DenverKevin | Oct 23, 2003 05:34pm | #24

   I totally agree with you.  I have a really useful book with similar info to yours:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393730530/qid=1066919216/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-2882428-4476853?v=glance&s=books

   The problem is that customer demand is driving the window design, rather than the true performance.  Another example is finding a good window for the south side of a passive solar house.   Of hundreds of manufacturers, only Hurd still provides a "hard coat" LoE glass with a high SHGC.  And it's only on a aluminum clad window which I'm not crazy about, but since I was trained as a solar engineer, I must have it for my house.

2. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 02, 2003 01:50am | #18

   20 years goes by pretty fast... will traco still be servicing their customers  in 20 years.. i bet andersen will be

   i've seen so many snazzy windows come and go.... latest and greatest... but most fall by the wayside... Andersen... Marvin... Eagle....Pella.... still standing behind their product...

   When they were founded:

   Anderson - Been around 100 years

   Marvin - 1912

   Pella - 1925

   Traco - 1943

   Eagle - 1977 (could be argued that they sort of began under another name way back in the 1800's)

   This thread isn't intended as an endorsement of any specific manufacturer but I decided to respond to the excellent question you posed. I do think Traco is a respectable contender in the longevity department. I hope I never have to find out about their customer service but they were recommended by a number of people, whose opinion I value, based on their positive personal experience with them.

   They sure did a nice job of catering to me during the process of earning my business. :-)>Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

3. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 02, 2003 10:25pm | #19

   I just realized the twenty year old company you were probably referring to was Alpen - the one I referred to as my "first choice." I guess everyone's track record has to start somewhere but I actually tend to agree with you on Alpen. I'm convinced they build one of the best windows on the market (today) but they are a true "custom window" builder. As such they really don't have well documented "off the shelf" windows and a stockpile of parts to repair them that will "absolutely" be around in 20 years.

   What I did love about them was their incredible flexibility in building "my" windows and their immense knowledge in helping me create the perfect individual window for each and every location in the house. It was like working with my own personal engineering and prototyping company. I'm the kind of guy who gets a big kick in the pants out of that sort of thing. Unfortunately, a kick in the pants can land awfully close to the wallet if you base too many long term decisions on it. :-)>

   All I'm saying is that, while caution is warranted, there is a certain level of comfort inherent in dealing with an organization who clearly has a cerebral capacity and customer service way beyond the norm - even if they haven't been around 100 plus years. Though they ultimately didn't earn my business, Alpen did earn my respect. I hope they are still around and going strong in twenty years. IMHO The world needs more businesses of Alpen's caliber.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

4. 
   andybuildz | Oct 23, 2003 02:57pm | #22

   Just ordered me a shirt load of Marvin windows(12 over 12 SDL's) and French doors after some extensive research myself again.

   Again because I don't take what worked yesterday as fact today.

   seemed to me Anderson quality was going down hill several years ago but they seem to be picking the ball back up for some reason (major competition).

   I needed wood exteriors as well as wood interiors which isn't all that common.

   I also wanted wood jamb liners (I hate that plastic look!!).

   Recently Anderson has the wood jamb liners in a new series they developed. Looks real nice, but no wood exteriors.

   Marvin automatically come with the tilt in sashes.....Anderson charges for that feature.

   MArvins are expensive but I think in the long run they're worth it, depending on how long you live in your home and if you're in a hood where resale recognizes window quality.

   Be warm,

               andy

   My life is my practice!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

   Edited 10/23/2003 7:58:45 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

1. 
   Tryit | Oct 28, 2003 04:36am | #36

   Andy, did you look at Serria Pacific windows?  I heard they were were good windows.

   ???

1. 
   andybuildz | Oct 28, 2003 02:29pm | #37

   No  I didn't......never heard of them. Too late now,  the Marvins have been ordered.

   One company all the suppliers hate even "all" the ones that carry them is, "Weathershield". They talked me out of them. they said the service is horrible and I looked at them in a show room and they looked like junk to me.

   BE well

              andyMy life is my practice!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

2. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 01, 2003 02:15am | #3

   Good point Calvin. Abilene is a very cooling day dominant climate so I focused my energy there. Our winter is very short and mild, our summers are not.

   The house is oriented to take advantage of solar angles as much as possible while focusing on the fantastic views in three directions. I created a 3D computer model and did sun angle calculations for all seasons of the year. The house sits at almost a perfect 45 degree angle to the four bearing points of the compass so all sides get some sun but the walls take the heat more at a glancing blow than a direct shot.

   The high sun angle in the summer solstice will be completely blocked by the 8'-0" wide wrap around porch on the lower level which will still allow a little bit of heat gain in the lower solstice angle winter months when the sun can peek beneath the porch roof into the house.

   However, I've done my best to create an affordable window that will not allow much in the way of heat gain at all so the winter sun angle probably won't be much of an advantage. It's too short of a season here to warrant compromising the summer heat blocking abilities of a window at all in order to pick up a little free heat in the winter.

   A good choice for Heat Mirror in a more balanced climate would be the Heat Mirror 88 instead of the SC75. (SC stands for Solar Control) The HM 88 retains heat in the house a little better than the SC75. Another good option in a balanced climate would be to change the LowE coating I put on the #2 surface to the inside #5 glass layer where it would do a better job of reflecting heat back into the house as well as blocking solar heat gain from outside the house.

   Robert, with Alpen windows in Denver, is one of the most knowledgeable Heat Mirror distributors out there. http://www.alpeninc.com/index2.html# The Heat Mirror creators actually referred me to him when I kept probing for more and more info. Alpen has the ability to custom tune each window in the house depending on its solar orientation and function. Anyone interested in Heat Mirror will find Robert to be an invaluable resource. I sure did.

   I will have to compile my other references tomorrow. I've got to get over to the house these windows are going in this evening to see if I can get it a little closer to being ready for them when they get here.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   caseyr | Oct 01, 2003 02:44am | #5

   How much of a penalty do you figure there is for a slider over a casement?  I guess I am a little surprised that there would be a significant difference in that the older casements I have seen (such as the aluminum framed casements on my 1957 S.F. Bay Area home) are constructed in a way that makes sealing around the pivots very difficult. 

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 01, 2003 05:28pm | #8

   Good question CaseyR - I can't give you a "penalty factor" for sliders but the way casements are constructed now days virtually creates a "refrigerator door seal" when they are closed. The ones with dual cam locks seal particularly well. The only way to get a better seal that you can get with casement and awning type closures is with a fixed pane.

   I changed my casement to a slider in Window 5.2 and went from a U-value of .149 to a U-value of .150. I think real world numbers would probably show a greater difference but it's probably not going to be significant.

   Of course, here is the other consideration - Casements cost a whole lot more than sliders. I would wager that to make up the difference in cost with energy dollars saved would take longer than the average life span of most humans. There are a lot of reasons to choose casements over sliders, including asthetics and resale value of the home. Energy savings is just one of the perks that adds to their value but, again, it's not one of those things that will pay for itself very soon.

   Today's sliders are a lot better windows than those available in the fifties too. Casement or not, that 1957, non-thermally-broken, aluminum frame window is gonna put a bit of a divot in your energy bill every month. :-)>Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   jmo2 | Oct 01, 2003 06:16pm | #10

   I know...it seems to defy all logic.  But we've restored ours.  Found a fabulous craftsperson who knows his stuff.

   Once his crew was finished and we put all of the PROPERLY FITTING storms in, we had to turn the heat down from 74 to 69 right away.  It was as tight as a drum in here.

   Luckily, we are okay with the maintenance...something that would drive most people ballastic.  But most of these windows are in great shape...90 years old.  It was the sloppy paint jobs over the years that created the cracks and leaks between the storms and windows as well as the windows and indoors.

   You can see his work in the last two entries of http://www.houseinprogress.net

   It's a dying art, I'm sure. 

2. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 01, 2003 07:05pm | #11

   Those are beautiful craftsman style windows and well worth saving. A far cry from 1957 aluminum - or uh... uhmmmm... 2003 vinyl. :-)>

   Thanks for the reminder that R and U-values aren't everything. I wonder if the new owners of our house, a hundred years from now, will go to such pains.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

2. 
   deadmanmike | Oct 01, 2003 10:35pm | #12

   Really interesting post Kevin, thank you!

   Mike

3. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 01, 2003 11:15pm | #13

   How about a little technical information? Here is an e-mail I recieved from Michael Thoman, P.E. - Director of Simulations and Thermal Testing at the Architectural Testing Institute. He was kind enough to give me the formula for area weighting the frame and glass to arrive at a good estimate of a window's total U-value.

   Oh yea, one other simple formula. R and U-values are the inverse of each other. Simply divide 1 by either number to get the other. (1 divided by .15 U-value = 6.67 R-value or 1 divided by 6.67 R-value equals .15 U-value)

   "COG" in this e-mail refers to "center of glass" without the frame being factored in.

   Kevin,

    

   The best I've seen were overall 0.17 with COG U-factor of 0.127 (Triple glazed, 2 low-e's). 

    

   If the window your referring to is made of vinyl, it should perform way better than 0.30 with a COG of 0.10. 

    

   A rough estimate is pretty simple.  Vinyl frames are typically 0.30 (ASHRAE default number).  To calculate the overall U-factor is a simple matter of area-weighting.

           40% of window area is frame at U = 0.30 --> U*A = 0.12

           60% of window area is glass at U = 0.10 --> U*A =  0.06

    

           U*A (frame) + U*A (glass) = U*A (total) = 0.18 (Normally you'd need to divide by the area here, but using percentage means area = 1)

          

           U = 0.18

    

           The edge-of-glass area is usually calculated seperately, but with defaults we don't know what it is, so I assumed it was the same as frame.  (Edge constitutes the first 2.5" from the sightline)

    

           Unless the frame is not vinyl or the COG is not correct, this window should easily outperform 0.30.

           

   I'm assuming to get to 0.10 COG, the IG was quad-glazed.

    

   Hope this information helps.

    

   Mike

   Michael J. Thoman, P.E.
   Director - Simulations and Thermal Testing
   P: 717.764.7700
   F: 717.764.4129
   E: [email protected]

    

    

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Kevin Halliburton 
   Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:09 PM
   To: Thoman, Michael
   Subject: Vinyl Window Test results

   Mike,

    

   HI, Dave Byers with LB Plastics suggested that I contact you with my question. I'm looking at several windows for a personal residence with very impressive center of glass u-values in the .10 range but their overall u-value ends up being around .30 or higher when the entire assembly is evaluated.

    

   I am trying to locate a vinyl window manufacturer with whole window u-values and solar heat gain coefficient numbers in the .15 and lower range. Have you tested any windows with u-values below .15 at the ATI lab? I would appreciate any help you can offer.

    

   Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 01, 2003 11:29pm | #14

   FYI - A follow up to that last e-mail:

   Kevin,

    

   The manufacturer was Thermal Industries.  I didn't search through all their files, just pulled a typical Picture Window that I assumed would be the best (typically PW's beat all other operator types). 

    

   The performance of Heat-Mirror can be approximated using low-e coatings on two glass layers in a triple-glazed unit, which is exactly what Thermal Industries does.  Heat-Mirror simply saves weight and IG thickness.    

    

   Mike

    

    

    

    

   -----Original Message-----From: Kevin Halliburton Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 9:16 AMTo: Thoman, MichaelSubject: Re: Vinyl Window Test results

   Thank you Michael - your information was very helpful and appreciated.

    

   It would seem that the narrower a frame is the better the window will perform. I'm evaluating several windows and trying to compare the advantages of using Heat Mirror triple glazing to standard double pane, low-e, argon filled windows. Depending on air gap spacing and gas fill, the Heat mirror COG #'s are between .10 and .14.

    

   The cost of Heat mirror is substantially higher, but so are the Heat Mirror center of glass numbers. My windows are fairly large so the frame may not play as big a roll as some of the smaller windows certified by the NFRC. Learning the simple formula for area weighting helps a lot - again, thank you.

    

   So far the top NFRC rated performer I've found in vinyl windows is a triple pane, Krypton filled, low-e casement manufactured by Thermal Industries, Incorporated that clocks in at an overall NFRC rating of .16. Can you divulge the manufacturer of the overall .17 you referred to?

   Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 01, 2003 11:52pm | #15

   Here are a few links from my "favorites" list to more qualified information on Thermally efficient windows and doors:

   http://www.nfrc.org/

   http://www.energystar.gov

   http://www.aamanet.org/

   http://www.efficientwindows.org/

   http://windows.lbl.gov/

   http://www.frontierassoc.com/texwin/

   http://windowworx.com/discussionpage.htm

   Here are a few links to some of the manufacturer's that left enough of an impression on me to also make my "favorites" list. Most of these were added to my list primarily because they were a good source of info - not necessarily because I shopped their products:

   http://www.gilkey.com/

   http://www.kensingtonwindows.com/index.html

   http://www.andersonrenewal.com/home.asp

   http://www.thermotechwindows.com/home.htm

   http://www.alpeninc.com/index2.html

   http://www.accentwindows.com/

   http://www.awwonline.com/welcome/Index.htm

   http://www.thermalindustries.com/

   http://www.windsorwindows.com/

   Two fiberglass frame manufacturers - I really like the fiberglass frames but they are still pretty new on the market. They seem to address a lot of the shortcomings of the other frame types:

   http://www.duxtonwindows.com/ 

   http://www.inlinefiberglass.com/product_windows.htm

   Please feel free to add your own "favorites" so the rest of us can check them out too.

   -Thanks-Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   Lynsta | Oct 12, 2003 05:18pm | #20

   Thanks for all of the great info. All of these energy ratings are so confusing and I don't have time to be an expert on windows, I've been trying to learn to much at once. Will one of you self-taught experts share some information with me?  1) I read on this site that casement has better efficiency than sliders. We were planning to use single hung style. How do these compare?.  2) We received poor service and attitudes from local window sellers until we went to a LbL dealer.  I saw them on someones "favorite " list.  Are they a good window manufacturer?  3) We live in SW Oregon. Winters do get cold- not as bad as the midwest. My main concern is the summer heat on the hot side of the house. We have dual pane aluminium now and the sun is cooking us. I'v asked every window dealer about special windows and/or treatments for the hot side of our house. They just look at me like I asked for pink frames and say that all of their windows have Low E. I say "ofcourse they do, Low E is required by the building code". I explain that some windows are for the shady side to help warm the house and some windows are for the warm side to keep it cool. Still, they don't have a clue as to how to help. What am I doing wrong? Best brand windows have a bronzing option,  Milgard's  booklet has a suncoat option, and I cant' find a simular option for LbL.

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 23, 2003 06:20pm | #25

   Sorry to have left you hanging Lynstra. I just realized nobody ever responded to your questions. I think it was because you asked for an expert and we've all been looking around trying to figure out who you were talking about. :-)>

   1) I read on this site that casement has better efficiency than sliders. We were planning to use single hung style. How do these compare?.

   Single hungs compare pretty well. They are basically a vertical slider but for some reason they seem to seal a little better than horizontal sliders in the test data I've looked at. Most people consider double hungs the way to go because they can easily remove and clean the upper glass unit, but that convenience comes at both a short term and a long term cost. In the short term, doubles cost more. In the long term, the upper pane of glass is manufacturer to move and thus it cannot be sealed as well as the fixed upper unit in a single hung so it will cost you a little more in lost energy. There are also more parts to malfunction and break. Since only one pane of glass can be open at a time on a hung window, I don't personally see an advantage to double hungs aside from the convenience of removal for cleaning. Single hungs are probably your "best bang for the buck" option with a vertical slider.

   2) We received poor service and attitudes from local window sellers until we went to a LbL dealer.  I saw them on someones "favorite " list.  Are they a good window manufacturer?

   I had never heard of LbL before your question so I found their web site and looked around. They have been around since 1963 but one thing I couldn't find was what certifications they hold and the results of testing by independent laboratories. It may be there but I didn't find it. Most manufacturers who are certified by energy star, NFRC and others are going to brag about it right up front. I issue an uneducated caution simply because they don't seem to be a well documented, long term window manufacturer at first glance. Manufacturer claims, unsubstantiated by independent testing, should be taken very lightly. They do appear to have a decent lifetime warranty.

   Your choice of vinyl is a good one from an energy stand point. Here are a couple of generic points to look for when shopping for vinyl windows. Look for thicker vinyl frames with heat welded corners and lots of air chambers built into the vinyl frame extrusion. These air chambers and curly-cues inside the frame add stiffness and hold air to improve energy performance. Some manufacturers even reinforce their vinyl frames with steel but it's an expensive option. Stick with a light color on the exterior to minimize thermal expansion and contraction and if at all possible talk to several clients and builders who have long term experience with the windows you are considering. Maybe others here know something of LbL's long term, real world performance.

   3) We live in SW Oregon. Winters do get cold- not as bad as the midwest. My main concern is the summer heat on the hot side of the house. We have dual pane aluminium now and the sun is cooking us. I'v asked every window dealer about special windows and/or treatments for the hot side of our house. They just look at me like I asked for pink frames and say that all of their windows have Low E. I say "ofcourse they do, Low E is required by the building code". I explain that some windows are for the shady side to help warm the house and some windows are for the warm side to keep it cool. Still, they don't have a clue as to how to help. What am I doing wrong? Best brand windows have a bronzing option,  Milgard's  booklet has a suncoat option, and I cant' find a simular option for LbL.

    

   Retaining and reflecting heat with glass is a bit of a trick and you will often find yourself having to sacrifice between the two to get a middle of the road solution that works for you year round. One of the best things you can do in a predominately colder climate is design for colder conditions and rely on shading devices in the summer to help reduce the thermal heat gain in your house.

   We had single pane aluminum windows on our last house and achieved some amazing energy savings in the summer months by adding a mesh screen over the entire outside frame of the windows as a shading device. Frames can be made for the screens that mimic a divided lite window very well. The advantage of such a solution was that the screens were easily removed in the winter to pick up a little free heat. Overhangs, blinds and even functioning shutters are some other options that offer shade in the summer and heat gain options in the winter.

   You may choose to combine shading devices with window tinting but keep in mind that any film you choose will be a permanent, fixed solution that locks you in to one configuration year round. Not bad if it's a balanced solution but it's a little more limiting than alterable shading devices. You also need to keep an eye on the visual transmitance of light through the window. Some tinting film really kill the pleasing nature of sunlight by dulling the spectral range of light entering the house. If you do select a film you will probably find the highest visual transmitance of pleasing light in the blue and green tinted films. I would stay away from the bronze and gray options simply because, in my humble opinion, they "dull" the light in unpleasant ways.

   Now, about the design of your windows for different sides of the house. As far as window coatings go, minor advantages can be achieved by putting your low-e on the side of the glass that you want to bounce heat off of. On the "hot" side, where you want to reflect the heat back to the outdoors, put the low-e on the outside surface and on the cool side, where you want to retain some heat in the house, put it on the inside glass. The specific low-e coating that is used is also pretty important.

   There are so many different types of low-e out there that it will depend on the window manufacturer as to what brand and type they are using. You should be able to find a knowledgeable person directly at the manufacturer who can help you determine the best configuration for your needs. If you can't get satisfactory answers from your local rep., Check the manufacturer's web site for a phone number and keep asking for the most knowledgeable energy guru they have until you are satisfied that you are talking to him/her. They should be able to customize a spec. for you that your local rep. can order from.

   Hope some of this helps and good luck with your new windows, whatever you decide.

   Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

2. 
   edwardh1 | Oct 23, 2003 06:45pm | #26

   Heat mirroer?

   thermal specs?

   I am still in the first grade.

   My nice 1984 home (I am 2nd owner) has 40 casement style Caradco Brand double pane (no muntins) casement type windows. I f the weather strip (metal piece around each casement) is in its normal position, the gear mechanism (made by Truth company) lack power/gearing/mechanical advantage to open the window. You could put a 4 ft extension bar on the rotator and the window would not open (mechanism would break of course).

   Another cute design trick is that the horizontal wood piece on the top of the sill under the window frame itself - (looks like part of the original window) , actually slopes downhill about 1/32 over an inch toward the house.

   i have a large overhang on roof so water never gets on window but if i did i would have a rot problem.

   What idiot makes windows like this???????????????

3. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 23, 2003 07:19pm | #27

   Have you called your local Caradco rep to ask about those "features?" I'm not sure if they are installation or manufacturer related but if the Caradco dealer in your area is service oriented they would probably appreciate an opportunity to straighten things out.

    

   Heat mirroer? thermal specs? I am still in the first grade

   LOL - the numbers and rating categories do start to get jumbled together pretty easily in my mind too. This is one of those places where the more I learn, the less I feel like I know everything. For off-the-shelf windows, if you get a handle on the NFRC U-value and Solar Heat Gain Coefficient categories you can do a pretty intelligent window comparison.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

4. 
   JohnSprung | Oct 23, 2003 08:45pm | #28

   I love casement windows, but hate those stupid gear and crank mechanisms.  Better to keep it simple with bar and thumbscrew hardware, or even the simple traditional European long hook and eye.

   -- J.S.

5. 
   DenverKevin | Oct 24, 2003 11:04am | #29

   A neat feature about double hungs is that if push both sashes to the middle, now you have the natural ventilation effect of warm air leaving the top opening, and cool air entering the bottom opening.

6. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 24, 2003 05:33pm | #30

   That might work if the window was very tall but it's not likely to be very effective in, say a four foot tall window.

   It also leaves you with the agonizing decision of which opening to position the screen over. :-)>Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

7. 
   CapnMac | Oct 31, 2003 08:12pm | #45

   decision of which opening to position the screen over

   Nope, that's one more "cost" item on a double hung; it needs a full height screen.

   Your thought on height is apt.  The windows have to be installed in the roof to take advantage of convection to give benefit to multiple sashes.  Best example I can remember would be some old construction in Dallas where the 12' ceilings had a tip-out transom over a 60" tall double hung (details like an inside screen and an outside screen will catch architectural attention).  I also remember some houses in Savana with floor to ceiling triple hungs (three cords & pockets).  Caught my eye, as they could have just as easiy had a fixed center sash.

   External shade is definitely the best way to combat heat gain.  Sizing that shade is the "tricky bit."

   Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

   Edited 10/31/2003 1:27:43 PM ET by CapnMac

8. 
   Lynsta | Nov 05, 2003 12:50am | #46

   Thanks, We did buy the windows... LbL is an Oregon company. Maybe that is why no one has heard of them much.      We got tired of trying to decide and bought them.

2. 
   tab1 | Oct 26, 2003 06:22pm | #31

   Kevin,

   I've recently moved into a circa 1910 house.  Out of all the windows, ONE has insulated--and it has failed :(  -- glass , but at least the rest have storms.  :-)  I need to replace the insulated unit and one or two others, at this point.  I used many of your referenced manufacturers, as a starting point, and have a couple of questions:

    My hope had been to find a manufacturer that sold direct to consumer (keeping costs down--and, I'm a long way from anywhere) but apparently that's rare?      Some that I did find, have fairly limited areas of distribution--which don't include KS.  Any tips on finding national and/or KS distributors?

   With CO being 'nextdoor' I called Alpen--and they were quite helpful--but at $700 for a 36x32 casement that's not going to work.  I get the idea your Traco windows were priced maybe midway between the high and low end.  In order to give me a reference point, would you mind saying what your 48 x 32 casements cost? 

   Thanks for your extensive posts, very helpful.

   Thon

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 27, 2003 07:27am | #32

   Well, first a qualifier. I got an exceptionally good deal because of some generous string pulling from a contractor friend, and because of my position in an architecture firm, along with my interest in promoting the Heat Mirror technology, the Alpen dealer viewed me as a resource to help expand his market in this area. I actually confirmed that I got a little better deal than my Traco dealer typically gives to his contractors...

   Having said that, I paid more than $350 and less than $400 for that window including the wood grain interior, heat mirror, low-e and argon fill. The heat mirror accounts for $80 of that price and the Trawood interior made a bit of a dent too. I think full retail on that particular window would have been somewhere between $500 and $600.

   I think my low end price on that casement came from the Atrium dealer, who was also giving me a tremendous deal (cost plus 10% as I recall) because of the large volume of business he does with the firm I work for. The Atrium came in around $180. The Atrium dealer I was working with is a commercial window dealer who sells almost no residential so I don't know how good of a deal he was getting from Atrium to start with.

   Well, there you go - exact information with enough qualifiers to make it virtually meaningless. I'm considering a career in politics - how do you think I'll do? :-)>Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

2. 
   edwardh1 | Oct 27, 2003 03:19pm | #33

   what kind of guarantee on that window?. Most of mine blow out and cloud up within 10 years tho some last longer

3. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 27, 2003 05:01pm | #35

   Your point about typical window failure after ten years is a good thing to consider. Windows take the brunt of both exterior and interior conditions for the life of a structure. Those long term warranties and customer service track records are important.

   My dealer claims that the frames and glazing are lifetime guaranteed but I haven't seen the paperwork on the warranty yet. I think the replacement includes labor for several years but I can't recall the specifics. I remember that it was one of the better warranties among the manufacturers I looked at.

   Again though - Tracos were a good fit for me but they may not be the best bang for the energy buck for everyone. The real purpose of this thread is simply to disseminate the terminology and tools I used to arrive at the best window spec within my budget in hopes that others will find some useful info for tailoring their own spec to the specific conditions they are building in.

   Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

4. 
   tab1 | Oct 27, 2003 03:27pm | #34

   <I'm considering a career in politics - how do you think I'll do?>

   Sorry Kevin, way too many facts and not enough waffling.  :-)

   Thanks for the info.

   Thon

5. 
   Lynsta | Nov 11, 2003 06:31pm | #47

   What is "heat mirror" ? It sounds like what I was looking for in a window, but I could only fInd standard low e that meets the local building codes.

   Edited 11/11/2003 10:34:45 AM ET by Lynsta

6. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Nov 12, 2003 04:53pm | #48

   Here is the link to information on Heat mirror from my initial post:

   http://www.southwall.com/products/heatmirror.htmlKevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

7. 
   Lynsta | Jan 25, 2004 08:03am | #49

   Thanks for the Heat Mirror info.  It was what I was looking for.

2. 
   geob21 | Oct 02, 2003 12:18am | #16

   Thremal Industries? You can't be serious. I just love the foam they use behind the jambliner. It's black and disintegrates over time. It's absolutely impossible to get the black stain off your hands and the carpet if you try to replace it. But that'll be the least of your concerns cause when it disintegrates and it will  the slightest breeze makes your  windows self tilting and with all the weight of the glass they usually break. Anyone know the U value for osb board up?  Or better yet how quick you can get that fancy glass replaced?

   Please also note previous post about atrium which also owns thermal and check out their site for warrenty information or don't bother wasting your time there isn't any.

   _____________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 02, 2003 12:27am | #17

   Thank you - Their thermal numbers are impressive. I've never seen a physical example of their windows. Like I said, U and R-values aren't everything.

   Mike stated hard number testing data and I just passed the data along. Neither was an endorsement. Clearly, numbers don't always tell the whole story. I appreciate the benifit of your personal experience.

   The Atrium rep gave me a great quote - less than half the cost of the Tracos. I ordered Tracos.

   EDIT: You also make another compelling argument for considering Heat Mirror film over triple glazed units. The heavier triple glazing tends to create more problems with sagging frames and failing seals in the long run. Especially in a low strength frame like vinyl.

   Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

   Edited 10/1/2003 5:30:55 PM ET by Wrecked Angle

4. 
   captainjohn | Oct 28, 2003 08:42pm | #38

   Wanted to pass along one tidbit that I learned when replacing some windows recently.  We specified different glass thicknesses for the outer and inner panes to control noise.  Costs were very nominal and they work great.  The different thicknesses resonate at different frequencies and help cancel out noise.  It was amazing how much noise it cut.  I know longer have to hear my neighbor across the street screeching at her kids.  Not all manufactures offer this yet, but I've noticed more are making it available.

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Oct 28, 2003 09:10pm | #39

   Hmmm, new one on me. Just shows to go you, no matter how much you learn there's plenty left that you've never heard of.

   I would be interested in any information you could pass along that would help me check this out. Did the manufacturer reference a study or anything?

   Thanks,Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   captainjohn | Oct 29, 2003 09:43pm | #40

   Got my windows from Milgard windows here in Washington State.  They had some info in one of their brocheres.  Try checking out their web site for additional info on the sound transmission data.

1. 
   caseyr | Oct 31, 2003 05:44am | #41

   Does anyone know anything about Jen-Weld?  ( http://www.jenweld.com/ )

   I know nothing about them except that every time I drive down through Klamath Falls, OR, I go by their factory- sort of in the middle of nowhere...  Might be nice to do business with a local outfit if their stuff is reasonably good. 

1. 
   alwaysoverbudget | Oct 31, 2003 07:31am | #42

   i'd like to hesr some input on jen weld.i've been looking at them and  think thats what i'll go with unless someone has some bad expereince with them.let me know what you think of them.thanks larry

2. 
   DenverKevin | Oct 31, 2003 07:31am | #43

   Jen-Weld just took over at the local Home Depots (Denver).  Now they've gone thru Viking, Milgard, and Solar.

3. 
   edwardh1 | Oct 31, 2003 03:40pm | #44

   Maybe its the search for the low bidder -any windows made in china yet - that will be next

5. 
   fortdh | Jan 31, 2004 04:47am | #50

   Kevin, best thread on windows I've read. Thankyou.

   I just returned from the Las Vegas HB show, and have tons of info coming.

   A BIG concern to me is warranty. I have some 12 year olds losing seal now, and when I build our new house, "lifetime, transferrable" are words I want to hear. Softlite in Ky. says they have that, and Peachtree says it is improving their warranty in near future...

   I will certainly look into the Traco. Did you say you had not seen the warranty in writing yet? When you do, please let me know.

   Paul

   ps . the show was super, and we brought back a suitcase of brochures, cd roms, and scanned requests for another truckload. I am interested in every aspect of the home, and will have to sift out the good products from the trash.

   Energy Consultant and author of Practical Energy Cost Reduction for the Home
1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Jan 31, 2004 06:29am | #51

   Paul,

   Thanks - I'm glad the thread was useful. Particularly to someone of your experience. If you will e-mail me directly I'll scan the warranty and send you a copy next week when I get back to the office.Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

1. 
   mickeyhickey | Jan 30, 2009 05:08am | #52

   Here is a link that would be useful to people in a cold climate.http://faculty.geog.utoronto.ca/Harvey/Harvey/papers/Harvey and Siddall (2008, GBM, advanced glazing).pdf

1. 
   Clewless1 | Jan 30, 2009 04:59pm | #53

   Your link appears to be 'bad'.  Did this post actually start back in 2003???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. 
   TroutMullins | Jan 30, 2009 06:05pm | #54

   http://faculty.geog.utoronto.ca/Harvey/Harvey/papers/Harvey%20and%20Siddall%20(2008,%20GBM,%20advanced%20glazing).pdf

2. 
   bobguindon | Jan 30, 2009 06:13pm | #55

   Your link appears to be 'bad'

   I found the OP's document at utoronto.ca.  Mzinga must have stripped the special characters from the original url, so I ran it through tinyurl:

   http://tinyurl.com/8kz7kn

   Bob

   Edit:  I see that I'm just a tad late...:)

   Edited 1/30/2009 10:13 am ET by bobguindon

6. 
   KellyM0711 | Mar 09, 2022 06:12pm | #56

   I know this is an ANCIENT thread but I have my fingers tightly crossed that SOMEONE will be able to help me. I have an entire house of Traco Vinyl residential windows, 17 years old. Excellent windows. Two of my huge picture windows have seal failures. Alpen Windows in Boulder makes heat mirror windows but I need to know the tint and heat mirror that Alpen used. AND I CAN'T find it ANYWHERE. HELP! I've attached a label.

   
1. 
   calvin | Mar 10, 2022 09:41am | #57

   Kelly,
   No picture shown that I can see.
   Are you trying to match the low e “tint”? Can the new supplier come out and measure and give you their opinion?