I know the right answer is probably “all of them”
But I do finish work and I’m wondering where I need to draw the line with getting permits? I assume that if I open up a wall to recess a built-in, I would need to get a permit for that first. What type of information do I have to bring to the building inspector office to get the permit? formal blueprints?
Justin Fink – FHB Editorial
Replies
Justin,
The answer is completely dependent on where you live.
Here in Wisconsin, 2/3's of the counties in the state don't require inspections of any kind (permits yes, but no enforcement), and none of the State requires a CO to my knowledge.
Now some localities here will fine you pretty severely for doing so much as adding an outlet to a room, (they have records on file), and you have to fill out a form when you sell your house declaring any changes you've made under penalty of perjury. My town has no records of any kind about my house. They were thrown away in the 70's when they built the new town hall.
Where I live, new construction is their (inspectors) bread and butter. Other than a permit for an outbuilding I pulled once, I don't bother.......But then again, the town I live in doesn't even have their own police, just a lone constable who doesn't even carry a gun.
Jon
it all depends on the building department.
i'm planning on building a "teahouse"
they want a plot plan and where it is going, a copy with my location added is fine with them
drawings to show how it will be framed and built, hand drawn fine
think the biggest thing is the estimated value, as that is what the permit fee is based on. and enough detail to know it won't fall down.
think in some places they want a permit pulled to paint your house,
it all depends on the building dept.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
"All of them" is the safe answer, but not the right one.
Local governments act as the representative for the current owner/occupants of a structure, as well as all future owner/occupants. Their role is to make sure that anything done to a new or existing structure is in the best interests of the current and future taxpayers who will occupy or use it.
The building department represents its taxpayers by ensuring the engineering makes sense (at least to an engineer in the case of novel materials or techniques), that the layout makes sense to an architect, that the structure itself makes sense to the current and future neighbors of the structure. People like to complain about the Building Inspectors, but its a little like complaining about the police - sure there are incompetents and bad apples but no sane person thinks doing away with them is a good thing.
Personally I would consider most fascia type work (trim, door replacement, window coverings) outside of the interests of the future owners. So would making a hole in the wall, as long as you did not deal with essentials like vapor barrier, HVAC ducting, exterior insulation, etc. These things ARE important to future owners. A patched drywall faced wall is fascia. A patched drywall faced Firewall is an important structural component.
For simple remodeling projects, the Building Department will likely need very little - they see the same houses and the same type of projects day in and day out. Bring in a neatly drawn sketch of what you intend to do (MS Paint is great for making things like this), pointing out the specific details of your work as well as a structural context. Is you recess in a load bearing wall? Are you moving electrics or HVAC? Know the overall cost of your planned project too. And bring your checkbook!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Thanks for all the help. I jsut didn't want to assume that I was fine without permits, only to get slammed by fines or something down the road.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Local governments act as the representative for the current owner/occupants of a structure, as well as all future owner/occupants. Their role is to make sure that anything done to a new or existing structure is in the best interests of the current and future taxpayers who will occupy or use it."That is a very foolish statement. The government has power over only the present.
And in his example, the future occupant may be current town residents who live elsewhere within the town.
Their role is to make sure that anything done to a new or existing structure is in the best interests of the current and future taxpayers who will occupy or use it."
But the problem is that most older structures are not compliant to modern codes, though not to adversely affect safety much, BUT technically, to touch something could cause the cost of the project to snowball doing it legally. Better to fly under the radar IMO, if you are improving what was there in the first place.
WSJ
Both you and GHR miss the point. Building codes and inspections are done with roughly the best knowledge of the day. Sure, things will change in the future. But codes are designed to help a structure survive and thrive for decades, not the few years someone may own it.
For you cynics, ensuring that they do their best to make a home a safe place when it is built or modified ALSO ensures that there is another happy taxpayer in their taxable area!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"codes are designed to help a structure survive and thrive for decades, not the few years
For you cynics, ensuring that they do their best to make a home a safe place when it is built or modified ALSO ensures that there is another happy taxpayer in their taxable area!"
Some of the most poorly constructed houses I've seen are the new "code compliant" ones going up all around me. Squeaky floors, wavy walls, decks put together almost entirely with a nail gun. But all to code.
Now I don't know if you have ever traveled abroad, but many of the structures in Europe would fail every code we have, but have managed to stand up quite well for several hundred years.
Codes exist for a variety of reasons, safety and longevity being only part of it, AND they way they are enforced often is at odds with that goal.
WSJ
codes are supposed to protect current and future HOs. sometimes they don't; sometimes the building inspectors are good and sometimes they're not. some places have better codes than others. some places enforce well, others don't.
so your point is that it's not a perfect world? when did you figure that one out?
and when all GCs and trades are perfect, maybe we can do away with codes?
and municipalities need to pay their bills too, so there's a cost for permits? everybody on the job gets paid, why not the municipalities? do you think the lumberyard doesn't include a cost for overhead? it's all just part of the job, part of the cost, and an effort, at least in theory, to protect the HO. so it isn't always perfect. shocking.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
"some places have better codes than others. some places enforce well, others don't."
SHG,
Not really sure what you are trying to say. My point was that some codes make little sense IMO, and some (most) allow for what I would consider sub-standard housing to be built.
"and when all GCs and trades are perfect, maybe we can do away with codes?.................. at least in theory, to protect the HO. so it isn't always perfect. shocking."
Huh??? My point was, if you know you are doing a good job on something minor (well beyond code), where there is minimal penalty, why bother with a permit? Yes there are plenty of hacks out there, and those are the ones who need inspecting.
Isn't that states license trades people?
WSJ
Jon, my post was about your earlier posts as well, not just that one.
Huh??? My point was, if you know you are doing a good job on something minor (well beyond code), where there is minimal penalty, why bother with a permit? Yes there are plenty of hacks out there, and those are the ones who need inspecting.
and so the guy working gets to decide if he "needs" inspecting, and if he decided he doesn't, then it's okay to break the law? Same with surgeons too?
And if the penalty is minimal, THEN it's okay to break the law? We had a lot of that attitude in my village. We just passed new penalties. Illegal demo = $100k fine. Illegal tree removal =$25k fine per tree, first offense, plus restoration of a tree of equal size and girth. Illegal sign = $5k first offense. That's what it apparently takes to catch some people's attention.
It's all just part of the job. Why does it have to come to the financial death penalty?
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
SHG,
I'm sure you make a FULL STOP at every stop sign. Cruise at 55MPH in the passing lane. And keep your lawn mowed to perfect (village specified height) at all times.
"The law is the law" PLEASE.......First management class in college I had, the professor warned us about people like you. They are called "conservative conformists".
People who in general are attracted to professions such as law enforcement... or jobs that that require little creativity...just go by the book. No thought to the rational behind the "law" just that it "must" be obeyed, even if it makes no sense.
WSJ
Out of curiosity, where in the country are you building and what codes do you consider "substandard"?
Personally, I love my local Building Department. The first guy inspector failed my initial construction, because it used a number of non-standard techniques and materials. I talked to the head of the Building Department to try to figure out how I could come into compliance. He actually took the time to work with me, examine the details and information I could dig up, and make suggestions about my plans that would bring it into compliance... as far as he was concerned. He then personally visited my site a couple of times to clear what I had done and what I planned to do.
He was tough, and he was oppositional. But he was no cog, and he was willing to extend himself to help a guy out. No tips or other remuneration required - he was just a damn good bureaucrat!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Out of curiosity, where in the country are you building "
Paul, if you right click on my name, you would know.
Personally, I love my local Building Department. "
I like ours also. Great guy, who I can walk in anytime and ask for advice, just like the guys here at BT.
My comments were more about re-habbing and overzealous inspectors who wanted to be FBI or CIA but couldn't. That when one "touches" something non-code compliant, everything associated with it may have to be upgraded to code.
If you leave it alone, you obey the law. If you make it better, but for economic reasons not to code, you break the law.
WSJ
This is exactly my big complaint with building codes and permits. AHJs need to consider revamping building codes for existing structures so that the needed plans are less, anything existing that is not directly hazardous is still ok, and the price for the permit is fixed.We re-did an existing bathroom that did not have enough spacing available between the sink and toilet. No reasonable way to make it work. The room is only 44" wide. It's perfectly ok to leave the 1920s bathroom, but not ok to upgrade it? How much sense does that make?Another bathroom we did, we combined two half baths and a linen closet. There were two existing entry doors, one on either side. All this space had been closets in 1900. Door framing was different then. One contractor insisted that the building dept. would require that the doors be re-framed, risking the plaster on the bedroom side, in addition to the cost of work. The doors have been fine for over 100 years! NOW I have to spend a bunch of money to re-frame them? I don't think so.
Bryan,
That's my gripe also. My 1920's/1950's/1960's/1980's/2000's house is over/under "engineered." To apply for a permit every time I do something, when there are not records or enforcement makes no sense.
I strive to do everything I do better than code, but there are times you just can't, or something that I'll eventually get around to.
Jon
To me, the big issue is bringing things up to code that you aren't doing in the first place. Like, I have all brick exterior walls. Yes there are ways to install electrical outlets along them to meet the requirement, but they are costly and look bad (most of them). The outlets I installed are to code, or better. But I'm not putting them where they can't go!
I finished repairs and upgrades on the family home this summer in los Angeles in preperation for its sale. We pulled over $2,000 in permits from the wonderfull city of the Angels and most of them where just money makers for the city. We most likely could have pulled more but since the inspector did not question we did not offer.
Be careful with this approach. many insurance companies will not cover damage caused by things done "under the radar" We all know insurance companies will look for any reason to not pay a claim.
"Be careful with this approach. many insurance companies will not cover damage caused by things done "under the radar" We all know insurance companies will look for any reason to not pay a claim."I want to see some proof of that.I have seen many claims that they exclude DIY and/or uninspected work. Now I looked at a bunch of polices that I had over the years and could not find any such limitation.But I live in an state without any statewide codes or inpsections. And insurance polices differ by state.Asked questions on a couple of forums.And no one could give me any such limitation.In fact I got responses from underwriters and other in the insurance biz and one of them commented that they insure against stupidities.Now you are right in one aspect, they won't pay for fixing the orginal problem, but they will pay for an resulatant damages.IE, poor solder joint cause sever water damage. They will not fix the pipe, but will pay for the water damages.
"Be careful with this approach............many insurance companies will not cover damage caused by things done "under the radar"
Bristol,
If you are flying "under the radar" they don't know you are there, unless you press "INDENT".........look it up on Google if your curious.
WSJ
Actually if you are flying under the radar preass Ident won't do anything.The transponder still needs to be painted by the "radar" for it to reply.
Story timeFriend from gulfport bought a house up the road from me, their got destroyed in the hurricane, I was looking at the back bedroom which was build onto the existing porch(off the ground) The room had a bad slope to one corner, like five inches. I thought it was some settlement on the blocks. jack it up it be fine. Looking under the porch, the longest 2x6 was three feet long. They had sister all these short 2x6 together to make the beams. hundred of three feet 2x6'sI dont think there was a permit pulled on this job.2+3=7
Bill,
So you are a pilot also?
JB
Yes, or more accurately was. I have not flown in about 12 years.I also did some work on designing avionics and ground based nav ads.
The transponder still needs to be painted by the "radar" for it to reply.
Used to be, but hasn't been that way for a long time. "Transponders" are really transceivers, now - they broadcast, don't have to be interrogated and don't require a signal for power.
Used to be, but hasn't been that way for a long time...Yeah, well, that's an old thread.SamT
Still does.": First, the ATCRBS interrogator periodically interrogates aircraft on a frequency of 1,030 MHz. This is done through a rotating or scanning antenna at the radar's assigned Pulse Repetition Frequency (PRF). Interrogations are typically performed at 450 - 120 interrogations/second. Once an interrogation has been transmitted, it travels through space in the direction the antenna is pointing at the speed of light until an aircraft is reached. When the aircraft receives the interrogation, the aircraft transponder will send a reply after a 3.0μs delay indicating the requested information. The interrogator's processor will then decode the reply and identify the aircraft. The range of the aircraft is determined from the delay between the reply and the interrogation. The azimuth of the aircraft is determined from the direction the antenna is pointing when the reply was received."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATCRBS
.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I guess commercial transponders operate differently than military transponders. I should have clarified that we build transponders for the military rather than commercial applications.
Military still has to have a civilian broadcast feature when operating in civilian airspace. ATC tracks them just the same as civilians. Does the IFF mode show up to ATC? I've got an old manual here somewhere that I might be able to find the answer in but not sure where it is anymore.
Who'd a thunk that I'd learn more technical stuff about my transponder on BT than I have in thirty years of flying and reading aviation publications. Of course it's all over my head but still...I'm impressed.
So you want to explain how the encoding altimeter works? Also, what does it mean when the little clown face pops up in the artificial horizon?
Transponders are really outside my experience.At one time I used to know more about VORTAC's. More specifically the VOR side.IIRC the ground radar interogates the transponder with pulse pairs of different spacing.One of those spacings there the transponder to reply iwth it IFF code.Another one pulse spacing tells the transponder to reply with the altitude.The back of the altimeter has an absolute optical encoding disk that gives the altitude. IIRC it is in gray code.http://mechatronics.mech.northwestern.edu/design_ref/sensors/encoders.html
http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~pmitros/encoder/" Also, what does it mean when the little clown face pops up in the artificial horizon? "I think that it means that the ground crew put laughing gas in the O2 bottles..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I think that it means that the ground crew put laughing gas in the O2 bottles.
LOL. Either that or the TBO* just ran out on that instrument.
*time between overhauls
Edited 8/12/2007 8:50 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Got any examples where a claim has been actually denied for such a reason?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've seen it happen a number of times with fires caused by unpermitted electrical work or work without a fire underwriters certificate.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
"Local governments act as the representative for the current owner/occupants of a structure, as well as all future owner/occupants. Their role is to make sure that anything done to a new or existing structure is in the best interests of the current and future taxpayers who will occupy or use it."
Tell me another funny one...
Around here, it is strictly for the purposes of adding the cost of the additional work to the declared value of the dwelling, so as to increase the amount of "payable taxes". Dwelling safety and structure are the last things on their minds.
locolobo; Edmonton, AB
you forgot "and collect fees for permits". Too many gov't functions have turned into "revenue sources". If the gov't is doing it, it should be done with income tax dollars. All other fees, fines, etc should be rebated to taxpayers.
any job that might give cause to raise property tax.2+3=7
Amen!
Every township and city set their own ordinances regarding the need for permits. If in doubt, call the building department in the city you plan to do work in. They'll tell you what they require. You can do this anonymously.
Here in Michigan, generally speaking, we don't have to pull permits if non-structural remodeling is done on the interior. All mechanicals require permits.
blue
If your a business here in michigan,then any work you perform over $600.00 you are required to pull a permit. That includes labor and materials.If you do the work without a permit the client/homeowner
doesnt have to pay. Now that would suck!
Rob Teed
Dream Builders
Robteed, I think your mixing up licensing issues. In Michigan, all work performed that entails $600 or more must be done by licensed contractors. But, if a homeowner hires a worker hourly, the worker does not need to be licensed. If the work being performed doesn't need a permit, it doesn't matter how much the homeowner pays.
Of course, maybe the laws have changed since I learned all those things.
blue
...Any work that can be seen from the street. lol
In my area........water heaters, sewer line replacements and septic systems. That it! DanT
Called our building department recently with the same question. Was told by one of the permit officials that it not only depends on the locale, but which permit official you ask. One will say one thing, another will say something completely different. How's that for ambiguity?
Call your building department for what is required in terms of drawings. As long as they're clear and to scale, they should accept them. As far as deciding if you need a permit, see the thread about wearing tin foil hats (if you're wearin' one, they can't tell what you're working on . . .)
Ha!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Justin, Connecticut has a statewide code. Municipalities can't legally deviate from it. Google "Connecticut building code", look at the "Connecticut supplement" to the IRC, and you'll know what you need a permit for and what you won't.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Interresting thread.
As a building inspector last year its yet different here too.
Anything with a roof or a roof change validates a building permit. Even a metal carport shelter. Actually a dog house qualifies but is over looked. <G>
All mechanical that builds or changes the system requirements need permits or HVAC change of equipment.
Decks , fences , and remodeling are exempt. I noticed when I studied La and Ms though that remodeling licenses were sold so I imagine those go through the permit process.
Some states have trade licenses and I understand they come under the permit process also.
Best thing to do is call the building office in your local.
Tim
Here in Mobile, AL, the brochure I'm looking at says you need a permit if:
"You are building a new home and doing the work yourself."
"You are making structural changes to your existing home, such as adding a room or deck."
"You are setting up manufactured housing."
You don't need permits for painting, redecorating, driveways, fences, etc.
Interestingly, detached structures (carports, garages, and even sheds) have to be built to the same structural high-wind codes as do dwelling structures.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Interestingly, detached structures (carports, garages, and even sheds) have to be built to the same structural high-wind codes as do dwelling structures.do you have a code number or something I can look this up. Last time I look, Mobile was basic codes.2+3=7
Yah, every time I get a permit for a carport, shed, or garage, I have to have a complete set of plans, stamped with the wind design on every page, including Inspector's Reference Guideline details with the Go-Bolt supplement.
It's gotten bad enough where I'm considering farming the plans out to a designer.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Requiring structural standards for outbuildings and fences is because when a fence or tool shed gets picked up and sails into the neighbors window wall, personal injury can result
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Anything with a roof or a roof change validates a building permit. Even a metal carport shelter. Actually a dog house qualifies but is over looked. <G> "
Tim,
I remember when I lived in NY [edit: a woman] being fined for erecting a birdhouse without a permit 'cause it had a foundation (pole was set in concrete) and had a roof, thus was subject to needing a permit. Is that what codes were really meant for? Made the front page of the local paper.
Jon
Edited 11/21/2005 8:25 am ET by WorkshopJon
I dont think that was meant to be the spirit of the codes , lol.
Tim
Down here we can build any size deck, as long as it's not attached to the house. And we can build storage buildings less than 120 sf ... so they're all 10' x 11'-11".
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It's a free country,why would you need a stinkin permit
'cause it ain't that free!
There are some counties/townships that allow anything- no permits ever. Be careful of what you ask for.
blue
"It's a free country,why would you need a stinkin permit"
Every cent counts! How else could we afford to liberate/destroy Iraq and spread democracy!
Live like us our die!
Somebody else said 2+3=7 and they're close to being right...re-structuring the rest of the world actually means 2+3=10, plus whatever worth American families' put on the values of our soldiers, who are dying to make Cheney and the like rich. You can imagine that everyone would prefer to have their sons alive and eating dinner in their kitchens, if that meant Cheney and his buddies would be eating dog food.
Let's conserve energy, but the Pres can keep riding around in stretch limos surrounded by huge GMC SUV's... sheesh
Just check to see if you need one. How about that?
or maybe I just watch the news too much...
God protect all the US soldiers fighting in Iraq
Can you not figure out how to get in to the tavern?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
One of the cities I've worked in has a "ALL work except Painting, Wallpaper and Flooring" needs a permit policy. Which some people have found too generic and have challenged the policy, after all a permit to do landscaping? If a homeowner does the work themselves, the permit price is based on what it would cost a "prevailing wage contractor" would charge.
Renaissance Restorations llc
Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
I think the right answer is instead: whatever your permit office thinks you need.
We are preparing to do a total gut on our bathrooms: ripping out, replumbing, rearranging, the whole nine yards. I called the permit office to see if I needed one. They asked if I was adding anything. No, I'm replacing existing. No ma'am you don't need a permit. Thanks very much.
I am glad to see that the need for permits is on the mind of contractors especially those doing remodeling. As a code enforcement officer in New York State (NYS) and I run into situations where work has been done that should have had a permit and inspections during the work that are now not possible without removing work already completed. I can only talk for NYS but, a permit is needed for work that must conform to the uniform code. There are some exceptions so the best thing to do is to contact your local building department. We are here to help not hinder and as others have said it is for the safety of those living in or using the building now and in the future.
Thanks Bristol.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Because of my work with local government in NYS, I've become a strong advocate of strict code enforcement. Naturally, my very good friends here think I'm either insane or a rat.
Even though there are some great builders here, the attitude they will give you for being a code enforcement officer should remind you why your job is so important. Everybody here knows better than any stinking code, and they don't need a code enforcement officer to tell them what to do. And all the evils that codes are created to address aren't there problem. Of course, when they're on the other side of the fence, they keep asking how it's possible for somebody to get away with the crap they do, or how come nobody shuts the hacks down, or any variation thereof.
My village is just completing some major revisions of the code for purposes of fixing problems that are happening during the McMansion building boom. Our biggest problem is that the new HOs were more than happy to pay the minimal fines imposed for permit violations, and the risks some of their actions were causing others would blow your mind. So the most important change was to impose huge penalties on both the HO and the GC, sufficient to put a very serious dent in their plans. To me, it's very simple. Get a permit, do it right and you have no problem. Screw with the law and get slammed. Biggest problem now is that there isn't enough code enfocement to catch every violator with all the work going on.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Because of my work with local government in NYS, I've become a strong advocate of strict code enforcement. Naturally, my very good friends here think I'm either insane or a rat.
".................. Our biggest problem is that the new HOs were more than happy to pay the minimal fines imposed for permit violations, and the risks some of their actions were causing others would blow your mind. So the most important change was to impose huge penalties on both the HO and the GC, sufficient to put a very serious dent in their plans. To me, it's very simple. Get a permit, do it right and you have no problem. Screw with the law and get slammed. Biggest problem now is that there isn't enough code enfocement to catch every violator with all the work going on..."
THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
Article [VIII.]
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Quote from you,
"We had a lot of that attitude in my village. We just passed new penalties. Illegal demo = $100k fine. Illegal tree removal =$25k fine per tree, first offense, plus restoration of a tree of equal size and girth. Illegal sign = $5k first offense. That's what it apparently takes to catch some people's attention."
For someone who claims such respect for our laws, you seem to have more respect for government bureaucrats who violate it.
WSJ
do you think when you come up with this stuff?
Excessive fines means more than is required to accomplish the goal of compliance. These huge fines ARE required because of people like you.
You're just not getting it. You aren't above the law. You don't get to decide that you don't have to get permits, follow codes, etc. I have no idea how well, or how badly, you build, but I do know that people with your attitude are the ones that cause these problems to exist. You don't get to decide that you don't have to obey the law because you don't want to.
And do you see the irony in your trying to rely upon the law, even though you don't understand it, to safeguard your right to break it? The Constitution does not guarantee you the right to do whatever you want. Now give it up already. You just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
SHG,
It's time for you to have a beer.........If you remember, by original point was that lot's of structures built "to code" $uck, and ones not, have stood the test of time. You seem to think government is all knowing, I don't.
WSJ
do you think when you come up with this stuff?
Excessive fines means more than is required to accomplish the goal of compliance"
Oh, and BTW, following that logic, guess we should start executing shoplifters..........no?
WSJ
Holy Cow! This ended fairly abrupt.
maybe they're out hunting shoplifters....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Roar!
Digging up posts from November '05......are we bored???
Enjoy your beer,
WSJ
It's amazing what one can trip over during a word search.
be 12192.1