What would you call this wood used for cabinet construction? Would you call it plywood? See the photos below — one photo of the panel face with a dado and the other photo of the panel edge.
Billy
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Replies
veneered OSB
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think of it as veneered OSB as well. There's a thick ply over it with a thinner finish ply. I paid the upcharge for "high quality plywood" and I wonder if people commonly call this plywood.
Billy
nope..
wonder board or something like that... similar to the OSB T1-11 siding
fragile and hates water...
you did not get what you paid for..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm thinking we really don't know what he paid so it would be difficult to say if he got what he paid for or not. I do think it would be fair to say that he did not get "high quility plywood" that he thought he was getting.
Edited 11/24/2006 10:39 am ET by Matt
true...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Actually it might be a higher grade of material than the standard cabinet construction. It would certainly be more moisture resuistant and stronger than mdf, should hold screws well. The core is dimensionally stable, the thick wood layer provides a smooth surface, and then the face veneer is the pretty part. I would not say it's as good as baltic birch ply, but it's far better than what most production cabinets use.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I think of it as veneered OSB as well. There's a thick ply over it with a thinner finish ply. I paid the upcharge for "high quality plywood" and I wonder if people commonly call this plywood.
When it comes to plywood for cabinets, what you have is probably better than a veneer core ply.
When it comes to cabinet grade sheet goods the flatness of the pannel is often more important that the structural strength so you see mdf and other cores that are stable and flat.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Gotta agree with Don here. Veneer core ply is not what is used to be...stability and flatness have changed with the diminishing quality of core veneers. Years ago, lumber core ply was the stuff...don't know if you can even get it now.
The "next generation" stuff is not necessarily bad, LVL core, MDF, particle board all have their attributes and shortcomings. Here's another variation of odd cores. Veneer center cores with PB under finish veneer. Flat and pretty decent to work with, but "volcanoes" a little when nailed and stapled.
Technically, it's all plywood....plys and wood... ;)PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
From what I've read it sounds like these panels are more flat than typical veneer core plywood. My concerns are (1) whether I got what I paid for, and (2) whether this is as moisture resistant as veneer core plywood, because these cabinets are going in a basement.
I bought these from a well-known advertiser in FHB and they sold it as "3/4" thick premium quality birch veneer plywood." I don't know if I would call what I got by that name, but I don't want to raise a stink if it is in fact a good product that has decent water resistance that justified the upcharge. They have otherwise been great to deal with. It was about a 20% upcharge from what they call white melamine on 3/4" thick 45lb industrial board.
On their website they call the panels "premium quality veneered plywood" (for birch plywood) although they say they have "other veneered materials available" with an MDF core. They don't call the panels with teh MDF core "plywood."
"The cabinets can either be constructed using our ¾” thick 45lb industrial board with a thermofused white or natural hard rock maple melamine surface, or our premium quality veneered plywoods (maple, birch, cherry or red oak veneer surfaces available). The premium veneer plywood materials are more expensive, adding about 20% to the project cost. Even if you choose the melamine surfaced industrial board, this is not some cheap particleboard like you find in home center cabinets, but rather a heavy, dense high quality material that holds screws well, and is very stable. Also, the melamine surface is very durable and easy to clean. If you choose the melamine surfaced material, all finished/exposed cabinet sides will still be in a matching real wood veneer surface to your door/drawer front material selection. Also, glass door or open shelf cabinets will have an all real wood veneer interior. We have other veneered materials available too (such as Walnut, VG Fir, Mahogany, Red Alder, White Oak, Pine), although most of these have an MDF (medium density fiberboard) core."
Thanks,Billy
Edited 11/24/2006 1:47 pm ET by Billy
WTF is "natural hard rock maple melamine surface"? Sounds like "military intelligence" or...
If your basement has enough moisture to make you worry about this product, you will have more serious concerns than its dimensional stability.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
That might be true, but the basement has no everyday moisture problem.
My only concern is some kind of "freak leak" such as a sewer backup, leak from a clogged gutter, or other basement water event that plywood cabinets take in stride if the exposure is not too long. The extra money for plywood cabinets is insurance against this type of event, the same as you would probably do in a bathroom cabinet or kitchen sink base cabinet.
How well does MDF core plywood do compared to veneer core plywood if it happens to get wet?
Billy
I would not want MDF anywhere near water, but I have used the exterior grade in wet locations without trouble. I don't know which they would be using for veneer core.We make our own cabs mostly and use Baltic birch and poplar. Most of ours are paint-grade
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks, Piffin. Baltic birch and poplar sound like nice solid cabs.
These are birch veneer on the inside but painted on the outside, with painted poplar frame & panel doors. I'll build a cherry countertop and painted bookshelves above -- I sometimes like the contrast between the painted cabs and bookshelves, and the natural wood countertop.
Billy
Compared to 45 lb industrial board, I would say this is definaterly an upgrade. MDF is another term for industrial board.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Never heard of industrial board. MDF is medium density fibreboard.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks, Eddie.
Billy
45 lb industrial board is particleboard.http://www.potlatchcorp.com/wood/particle.asp"Industrial (M-2 and M3) - 45-lb to 48-lb density panels, produced in 49" x 97" and a 100-grit finish is used by laminators, cabinet builders and furniture manufacturers when the strength properties of industrial grades are called for."http://www.bc.com/wood/particleboard/industrial.jsp"Industrial 45# density is the most common panel we produce and is used in the manufacture of furniture, kitchen cabinets, consumer electronic cabinets, store fixtures, and game tables. This product is suitable for a variety of finishes (laminates and coatings), but is renowned for its machining performance and edge integrity. We also manufacture 47# and 50# density panels that provide additional edge consolidation and surface properties.Thickness Range * 45# - 3/8" through 1-3/16"
* 47# - 3/8" through 1-1/8"
* 50# - 3/8" through 1""They also have a Commercial PB which is 41 lb.The 45 lb industrial PB is much denser and more water resistant than what you think of PB used in vinyl coated PB knockdown furniture from Wallyworld.My local supply has 45 lb industrial PB in many sizes for cabinet work. It is also commonly used for laminate countertop substrate.http://www.libertyhardwoodsinc.com/catalog/melamine_pg3.asp
It would certainly be in the sheet goods which plywood is. There are many alternate types of construction other than the classical laying up of multiple layers of wood.But I am surprised to see the 2nd layer is wood and not MDF. MDF is often used in highend "plywood" because it is very flat and doesn't have a grain to telegraph through to the finished surface.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=80094.21"ANSI/HPVA defines hardwood plywood as "a panel composed of an assembly of layers or plies of veneer or veneers in combination with lumber core, particleboard core, MDF core, hardboard core, or of a special core material joined with an adhesive. Except for special constructions, the grain of alternate plies is at right angles and the face veneer is a hardwood species.""http://www.columbiarewards.net/products/default.aspx
Bill,
Thanks -- it's interesting that ANSI/HPVA defines this as plywood. At least it is technically the correct word.
Billy
Bill,
Thanks for the links and explanation. Here are a few more:
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00016.asp
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00134.asp
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=29993
This is what the Hardwood Plywood & Veneer Association says:
http://www.hpva.org/products/prodinfo/cores.asp
"Although most people think only of a veneer core product when hardwood plywood is mentioned, hardwood plywood actually refers to any panel product in which the face of the panel is made of hardwood veneer."
Of course, the same website then contradicts itself and says "What makes plywood so strong is its unique cross-layered structure." This is simply not true with MDF core plywood, is it?
Billy
Edited 11/24/2006 2:01 pm ET by Billy
Pictures aren't real clear, but it looks like a LVL core with a thick layer of solid wood and a thin face veneer. There's probably a more correct term, but I would call it plywood.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It looks like an OSB product, veneered with ply.
Don't know the trade name
I think that is called laminated veneer ply. Only heard about it once so I could be wrong. I( can't say if it is better or worse than veneer plywood.
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It's veneer core plywood, the cores veneers are fir. It looks like OSB in the bottom of that groove because the bottom of that cut went just to a flat sawn veneer of fir where it joins to the next crossply. What the one picture shows is the glue line plus the veneer on top and underneath. It's the edge view that tips it off.
Lee