The subject line is minimal, so I had to get creative in the words I used.
I was only trying to see what modern method(s) you disagree with in the construction and trades industry. Some of this came up in my plumbing thread, but I know there has to be more out there that some of you have strong disagreements with.
For instance, I personally felt the move by builders from 100% plywood, or even OSB, to foam sheets as an exterior sheathing material was a poorly excused as a thermal ‘benefit’ as opposed to a construction cost savings. This was furthered annoyed when they also moved from 3/4″ T&G plywood subflooring to 1/2″ T&G OSB.
Replies
I was talking to my plumber about the flex tubing for gas. You couldn't give me that stuff. The first time I became aware of it was when my former partner shot a nail thru it in a kitchen we were remodeling. We don't have to make EVERYTHING cheap and easy!
Might be thinhking of something else here - flex stainless steel gas line is neither cheap nor easy.Overall, I think that most of the most modern materials are of a higher quality than say thirty years ago. The problem with that is that too many novices or DIYs tend to lay it all on the material, asssuming somehow that they can install it sloppily and still end up witha great install job. the higher the quality of the material, the higher the standard required of the installer, IMO. We need more technmical training for end users, it seems to me.i.e.
aPaints and coats that are temperature sensitive
TJIs and the need for special hardware, cutting technigues - especially for plumbers - and squash block installations
roof coatings and membranes
window flashings andf the interface with housewrap
SS relative to the new PT
etc
etc
etc
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>>The problem with that is that too many novices or DIYs tend toDIY's getting stuff wrong? Gosh .... (see attached creative use of appliance gas supply lines....)
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
ROAR
Well atleast it is creative
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
;)
should I mention that ANY tubing or supply line has a hard time delivering producft with nails driven into it?
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Ok, I don't know about cheap on the flex gas line, but it's designed to go in quick and I've seen plenty of guys putting sharp bends on it and dragging it thru holes in the framing in their quest to run all the drops before lunch. Personally, I like to keep pressurized flammable gases as safe as possible, so I own a pipe threader and only do black iron gas lines.
good point! We only run in the crawl space andthen up in floor, so it is not in a nailable location. Pardon me for having a bit of fun with you.;)
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There's a certain amount of slab-on-grade here, so the gas line goes from the regulator on the exterior wall up into the attic, runs thru the attic (all hard pipe to this point), and then drops down thru the various walls to the appliances. In other words, hard pipe in the non-nailable locations and then flex in the walls where I'm trying to drive those Piffin screws while I hang cabs. Now, truthfully, a good plumber keeps the lines under test during the entire job, so you know when you hit one, and it's more of a construction issue than a service-life issue... but I still don't like it.
Pif, while I agree with you on a lot, and with Matt on Thermo-Ply sheathing, what's wrong with stapling sheathing? We use 1/2" crown staples on most of our wall and roof sheathing and we find it works very well when done properly...that's 2" OC edges and 3" OC field, mind you, in a 100 MPH wind design code area.
And understand, I'm not confronting, just trying to get your full opinion.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
That suprises me, having seen them bend and pull through easily. They get grip , but seem to have little shear strength. Then for shingles - that would be one to gag on.
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Paul, I wouldn't dare use staples for shingling--besides, it's against code here. And framing staples do bend easily; however anything that's been stapled will be a major pain to remove. We have always used 8d nails on designated "shear" walls, garage return walls, even if plans/code didn't require them.
Since I've started using my new Hitatchi framers, I may just switch back completely to nails, though--the depth adjustment on the new models is very consistent.
Speaking of nailing plywood, besides not nailing it well enough, my second biggest pieve is shooting the nails all the way through the ply.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
I couldn't agree more. Staples, when set at the correct height, are far superior to 2" nails. Just try to pull off a sheet that's been stapled versus nailed. It takes me twenty minutes to staple an entire roof. The difference adds up to hours better spent elsewhere, ie making money.
"It takes me twenty minutes to staple an entire roof."What are you talking about? Stapling off sheathing on a roof? Are you comparing that to using a framing gun to nail off a roof?Joe Carola
Yeah, of course I mean stapling the sheathing. I sheet the whole roof first, nailing each truss with one nail per sheet, then staple it all at once. Like I said before, when the depth is set correctly, stapling the sheathing is strong, fast, and a whole lot cheaper than nailing with a gun, or -shudder- by hand.
How is an air stapler faster than nailing with an air gun? I would think they're the same. I've never used one before.I had one sheathing crew that did as you described. They would sheath the whole roof with just tacking it down and then nail the whole roof off.I still don't see how a staple gun would be any faster than an nail gun. Can you just slide the staple gun up and shoot without lifting the gun?My old Senco guns I used to be able to do that.Joe Carola
Joe, yes it's very possible to nail off a roof faster with staplers than with guns, and yes you can almost just drag the stapler down the roof and let its recoil do the work.
Of course it's hard on the gun, results in staples sticking out, not to mention all the shiners cause you were going too fast. LOL
I still believe stapling is an acceptable alternative to nailing if it's done correctly.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
What really bothers me in residential construction is that no standard in terms of energy-measure is forced upon the builder to determine for the benefit of the buyer how much as a given temp and cost of energy one can expect to pay annually. Now, I am talking about track builders, not cutom builders.
But, there isn't any way for a potential buyer in, say, May to determine what two houses built by two different builders will result in costs of annual energy consumption for heating or cooling for a given size home. For instance, when I went looking for my first house, one subdivision was rated Penny-Sense by the local electrical coop because of measures the builder took (i.e. followed the utility company's guidelines for energy efficiency in the construction), and most others didn't care one way or another.
Yet, this seems like if electric company Xor gas company Y can do a basic analysis on a completed home that this should be a requirement so consumers can judge from an independent study what the likely costs would be given a set of constant independent aspects (temp in Summer/Winter, fuel cost, etc.). This would be very pro-consumer and probably do a lot to hurt cheesey builders vs. good builders, subs, etc.
The lack of such a program/requirement is disgusting, which is a natural once-bitten consumer view.
Around here no one staples sheathing as far as I know it's not code. Years ago they started with staples and also the roofers were using staples but they stopped.Since it's not code by you and a staple gun is faster then a framing gun I would use staples also.Joe Carola
Thanks for the affirmation...yes it is within code here (even in a 100 MPH wind design area) to use staples, and I can promise you, with 2" OC edge/3" OC field nailing, it's gonna take a lot of uplift to uproot roof sheathing. Shear strength in wall sheathing using staples is surely lower than using nails; however we have to use all OSB/plywood sheathing (continuously), not just in corners or every 25'.
Speaking of shear panel, a customer of mine who we built a garage for in May (and are now framing his dining room addition) told me the BI almost failed the framing inspection because we nailed OSB to the interior of the three small garage return walls...he said he thought we "might be covering something up". Keep in mind, we used 9' OSB to eliminate blocking, used all appropriate strapping/Go-Bolts, insulated the wall cavities to above minimum requirements, and THEN nailed the interior OSB on in a code specified pattern. And ALL of this was detailed specifically by special notation on the floor plan (Page 1) of the prints, which I personally drew.
Gee, BI's....the good, the bad, the ugly LOLJason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
"Shear strength in wall sheathing using staples is surely lower than using nails..."
Shear strength is figured based on the diameter of the fastener. Since staples are a much smaller diameter than nails, they would have a much lower shear value per fastener.
But since you're doing the entire walls with OSB you probably have a ridiculously high amount of shear strength overall. So I doubt it matters.
It takes a great man to make a good listener. [Arthur Helps]
Most of the framing crews I've used do not staple sheathing but a few do. Some have their guns set for full auto, it believe me it's something to see a well expierenced guy in that mode.
Our code, Florida, has not allowed any kind of staples for sheathing or roof shingles since the major change in 1994 or 1995. Typically, most nailing schedules for half inch osb or cdx are 8d round head 4" oc perimeter, 6" oc field. All plans we submit for permitting, even if it's changing out a window and modifying the existing opening, must be sealed by an archy or structural engineer. Energy codes apply too. Even on a one room addition the enery form is three pages long.
I thought Florida just started requiring ring-shank nails for sheathing?Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
No ring-shank specifications in any of the counties I work in. We always have to use 8d 4" on the edge and 6" or 8" in the field.And our structural engineer just started requiring 6x6 posts on all of the houses that he wind loads. But I haven't gotten a straight answer as to why.Speaking of wind loads, I hate doing x-bracing on gables.
On gable ends here, we have to make a "diaphragm" of 10' 2x4's 32" OC (or every other stud) as well as cross bracing and purlins. Adds about 2 hours time and 100 bucks of materials to every gable. Needless to say, hips are getting more and more common.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
"Florida, has not allowed any kind of staples for sheathing or roof shingles since the major change in 1994 or 1995."
After hurricane andrew, I read a lot of reports from engineers who went down to Florida to try to figure out why so many homes failed. And a lot of the code changed were knee-jerk reactions to their findings.
Based on what I can remember - Staples were outlawed because a lot of them were installed wrong. ie: They would hold the gun parallel to the top chord of the truss so only one leg of the staple would hit it. I guess it was easier to outlaw the staples than to try to get guys to use them properly.
In some cases, they found plywood or OSB with only one fastener in the top edge and one in the bottom edge of the sheets. Obviously that's not enough in 120+ MPH winds regardless if they're staples or nails.
Going from memory again - Wasn't OSB outlawed in Dade county? I think it was because they figured that once the shingles blew off it became soft and the fasteners would no longer hold it on.
Again, better to outlaw OSB than to try to get it installed correctly.
I also remember a picture of a foundation wall 40' long with no anchor bolts in it. (The house apparently took off for Kansas)
The WTCA did a followup report a couple of years later to see if the new codes had made a big impact. As I recall, the report said that most people were more concerned with how quickly they could get their home rebuilt than anything else.
Sorry - Kind of gettong off topic here...
Good breeding consists of concealing how much we think of ourselves and how little we think of hte other person. [Mark Twain]
Post Andrew there was a considerable amount of discussion about staples. The first conclusion was that staples were inappropriate for shingles. Some testing, I suspect not a whole lot, was done and it seemed apparent that the staples were marginal even if perfectly applied and even slight variations in setting, too loose or tight, they failed miserably.Another concern was expressed as 'zippering'. The idea that once the edge of a member loosens it can continue progressively defeating each fastener in turn. I have read that some testing, I'm not sure how much or valid it was, showed that the many staples needed to achieve the strength in both withdrawal and shear of a smaller number of nails was more prone to this 'zippering' effect.I can say from experience that sometimes there does seem to some such effect. Participating in renovation of mobile homes I have pried up wall sections that had many staples. Once the end is started the entire wall comes up quickly. I compare this with a similar wall section if a nail is included. Not uncommon for the wall to start coming up and then stop where the nail is. The effect is not entirely predictable or consistent. Some stapled wall sections refuse to zipper and the inclusion of a nail or two does not always stop the progressive failure.The situation seems analogous to the old trick of ripping a telephone book in half by feathering the edge and getting the rip started. Once the rip is started it is easy enough to maintain its progress. A variation is to install a few pieces of double stick tape between the pages. Then watch as a spectator tries to repeat your performance. The tape greatly increases the difficulty.Also consider the various 'rip stop' fabrics. A tight weave of same sized thread with a regular grid of larger threads. These tending to stop or slow the progress of any tears.The idea being that fewer larger fasteners can sometimes make for a more durable product in situations of sequential failure.Other than reading about a few surveys or studies and some anecdotal evidence I don't have much more information. It is not clear how the atmosphere after Andrew and in light of the fairly obvious failure of staples to hold onto shingles may have soured the overall view of staples generally. Or how the concept of zippering, sequential failure of the staples, may have been reinforced by this atmosphere.
Here is something I remember from the FHB article about what happened when Andrew hit Florida:OSB roof sheathing held on by staples failed like so:
1) The shingles and paper blew off.
2) The rain soaked the osb, causing it to swell in thickness, starting at the top surface.
3) The soft swollen surface layer was cut though by the staple crown, a bit at a time.
4) The pumping action of the high winds cyclically loaded the OSB so that the wet top was repeatedly slammed into the sharp staple crowns, thinning the sheet at the fasteners.
5) Catastrophic sheathing failure ensued, allowing water into the attics, collapsing the drywall ceilings.
6) The wind then got into the interior and blew the houses apart from the inside.Plywood fared better than OSB when the same fasteners were used. Nailed roof sheathing of either type fared better than stapled sheathing. Given these findings, and the fact that light frame construction gets its reliability from redundancy, it is no wonder that both staples and OSB were subsequently outlawed for sheathing roofs in Dade County.I no longer own that back issue, and have not seen the article for many years, but it made a huge impression at the time. (1989, right?) The other telling finding was that all the traditional homes with roofs framed in 4x6 Dade County pine with 2x decking, stayed on during Andrew. Dade pine is very dense and strong, 'cause it has to be!Bill
In my opinion the code changes after Andrew here in FL are extreme overkill. Every two years our boring 14 hour required continuing education classes are filled with code change issues. Basically, the ball is now in the court of those that design the frames.
These guys are worried about litigation down the road, so they are overcautious. 95% of my work is additions and remodels to 70's and 80's
homes. When the homeowners see the completed frame they usually say, "we didn't realize you were giving us a bomb shelter". The connector and fastener manufacturers are making a killing. I take pictures of every interior wall so that when I trim out I won't be hitting steel every fifth nail. It doesn't make headlines like a hurricane, but wood rot and water intrusion issues are probably just as costly. I seldom cut into an existing structure without finding serious problems. The original builder didn't want to take an extra ten minutes to flash a window, etc.
Edited 1/20/2006 6:39 am ET by pcnot
Our code in Alberta, which is really just adapted from the national building code, accepts stapling. In the region I grew up, 60mph winds are common two days out of seven, and twisters are common. I've found nothing to blame in stapling a roof, and consider it to be at par or better than nailing, though I'm admittedly only a carpenter. The shear value may be less, but the staple does grip over a wider cross- section.
what's wrong with stapling sheathing? Nothing when installed and in good compromise to the other systems that go into making a home. As an exterior sheathing material, how on earth do you get 3" field stapling when studs are usually 16" OC? And its ability to stand up to siding material installation is a joke.
Now, its not always a material that is at fault, but its implemented use. I'd much, much rather have a misfired or misnail siding take offense to OSB sheather (or plywood) than foam that is going to give, and do so in a >2" hole.
OK I've had another few minutes to think on this.BTW, I have never seen 1/2" subfloor allowed either. Least is 5/8" and that when it is to be combined with another ply of hardwood or underlayment.STAPLES! I hate staples for sheathing and roofingGREENBOARD this is also an example I suppose of my previous comment, when people use it for a shower behind tile. Lot of it happened in the seventies that we are replacing now, but anyone who still tries to use it for a shower is either ignorant or insane today.and lest we not forget - PIFFIN SCREWS - when people use a sheetrock screw designed only to be strong enough to hold, in conjunction with a bunch of other brother screws, a paper faced product called sheetrock with minimal density, to try to hold up something twice as heavy with only one or two ofthem in dense hardwood like a cabinet, they have left their brains on the sawdust floor and put peoples bodies at risk and piffed me off. They should be using appropriate structural screws which have 2-3 times the shaft thickness and are made of higher quality steel so the total strength of the proper screw is up to twenty times as great as a generic thin shank brittle SR screw.Thanks for leting me get that off my chest so early in the year!;)
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While at my uncles for the holidays he was showing off his new kitchen, really nice cabinets, crappy granite and horrid floor, but uncle was so impressed because the kitchen guy had a LASER (ooh ahhh) and he used finish washers under his drywall screws.
My uncle is a very mean person, so it was with great glee that I got to point out that his super kitchen guy used the wrong screws.
will it hold?
maybe.
But I hope not.
Sheesh at 39.10 per 1000 at McFeeleys you would think it could have been done right.
I also definitely hate bad vinyl siding jobs.
Around here they sell cabinet screws (is that the name?) at the big box stores.
You remind me of another one.Particle board cabs with thin veneer skin. In this humid climate, they turn to mush in no time
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Whose humid climate? My mother's condo in Florida has its original cabs and countertops, all made with particleboard and laminates. Built 36 years ago, everything still is performing well. Mom rarely turns on the AC, so things get pretty humid inside.
The floor of the sink cab, melamine-faced particleboard, has survived some drain leaks and Insinkerator failures.
I'm not sure why you purists can disdain cabs made with PB, and then turn around and tout the virtues of an OSB subfloor sheathing product.
Particleboard has been used as the cores in commercial doors since its introduction, almost 50 years ago. And a lot of those doors are still swinging and slamming in the humid climes of LA, east TX, FL, MS, everywhere else on the Gulf coast, and up in the soggy Pacific NW.
I know it won't endure the sunk-in-the-pail-of-water test, but neither will the 3/8 and 5/8 interior plywood used in carcase-making by some of the cab manufacturers.
You are confusing me with somebody else if you think I like OSB.As far as the PBd boxes, I'm just reporting from what I see. They melt down in time
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I'm sorry. I had you confused with one of the many Advantech worshipers.
I do love Advantech, which as close to OSB as a wolf is to a mexican hairless. And comparing it to particle board is more like comparing the same wolf to a sick mouse caught in a trap. in a test for survival between teh two, my money is on the wolf
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I would have to say OSB, if you don't get a roof shingled in time the edges swell and you can see the seams telescope through the shingles. One one job, that was really bad we took an angle grinder to the seams and ground them flush before the roofers got there.
cabs with ply wood sides but dirtboard bottoms
cabs with 1/8" backs and cheesy hanging strips
2-1/4" casing
Masonite doors
masonite siding
Vinyl floor
big box stores
big box design sense
there's more....
Mr. T.
Maybe Christmas doesn't come from a store...
Maybe Christmas means a little bit more...
Then he got the strength of ten Grinches, plus two!!!
#1 would be builders using vinyl siding on any house under $1,000,000. Vinyl siding is something to be ashamed of. You may as well have several old refridgerators in your front yard.
#2 would be ACQ. An answer to a question only a few were asking, 5-6 years from now the problems with the folks who have to install the stuff and the problems associated with poor fastener choices will be mind-boggling.
#3 would be the trim quality, or lack thereof, in new construction. Windows with drywall returns, casing joints with 1/8" gaps (not caulked), 3" high baseboard all look like crap and every new house has them. Don't get me started on the cabinets, yeesh.
The only good side of this is that i'm making a living installing real trim in these houses. Most clients I have coming up want trim upgrades or hardwood floors to replace the cheap carpets that wear out after a year or two.
I'm trying not to build any more decks until there's an alternative to ACQ (not likely soon) and i've given up trying to deal with vinyl sided houses with homeowners complaining of drafts around every window (sometimes even corners, too!).DCS Inc.
"Whaddya mean I hurt your feelings, I didn't know you had any feelings." Dave Mustaine
Check out http://timbersil.com/ and also this link http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29337
I'm with you about hating ACQ. We use borate treated lumber for sills and try to avoid building decks right now. We can't always avoid it, but when this product becomes available, it seems like the panacea for all our treated troubles. :-)
Tim, From their website...>>>> * Our revolutionary approach uses a patented process to surround the wood fibers and each micro-channel in the interior with molecular-thin, layers of glass, making the wood (the food source) inert and unavailable to rot, and most common wood protection problems. We do not use toxic materials or poisons to target, kill, or harm any organism (anything that is a poison to bacteria or mold is a poison for people too, and a threat to the environment), instead we simply make the wood inside and out permanently unavailable as a food source.My first reaction to this is... Glass ?I am wondering already how many people are going to end up with silicosis from cutting this stuff without breathing protection ?
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I'm not sure. The Popluar Science article I read said it was treated with ash or something and totally nontoxic.
I do know that ACQ is bad stuff and I don't want to deal with it at all. I refuse to handle that stuff without gloves. Fortunately we don't use it, but very rarely.
http://www.americanrecycler.com/0405glass.shtml"What happens when you grind up glass and some of the fine particles become airborne? It looks and acts like dust. The presence of dust in the working environment or even in an open area has become a concern to the health and safety officers for public and private operations. Silica dust, not glass dust, is a known hazard and long term exposure is linked to silicosis, a disabling lung condition.Since glass is made out of silica, the connection is immediately made, and concern for worker safety is often expressed when producing or handling the glass sand. At this point, it is very important to know the difference between the crystalline structure of silica sand and the amorphous structure of glass.Silica sand in its natural state has a crystalline structure that has the capacity of “sticking” to lung tissues. Once the silica is fired and fused with other ingredients to make glass, the chemical/physical structure of the glass is now called amorphous. Glass is amorphous with a closed structure that doesn’t absorb anything and doesn’t physically stick to tissues. If a person is exposed to amorphous glass fines or dust, the body can expectorate the dust as it would any other type of natural dirt. OHSA simply classifies the glass dust as a nuisance dust."But the actual material is sodium silicate or "water glass".Found this on on Wikipedia so I don't know the source.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_glass"The use of sodium silicate as a timber treatment for pressure-treated wood began in 2005, when an environmental scientist developed a method for rendering sodium silicate insoluable once the lumber has been treated with it. This treatment preserves wood from moisture and insects and possesses some flame-retardant properties. Sodium silicate treated lumber is considered a safer alternative to chromated copper arsenate (CCA, restricted by the EPA in 2004) and alkaline copper quaternary (ACQ, which corrodes non-galvanized nails and screws)"But this is water glass which is a glass like substance and not the same as window glass, although both silicate based compounds.http://www.answers.com"water glass or soluble glass, colorless, transparent, glasslike substance available commercially as a powder or as a transparent, viscous solution in water. Chemically it is sodium silicate, potassium silicate, or a mixture of these. It is prepared by fusing sodium or potassium carbonate with sand or by heating sodium or potassium hydroxide with sand under pressure. Water glass is very soluble in water, but the glassy solid dissolves slowly, even in boiling water. Water glass has adhesive properties and is fire resistant. It is used as a detergent; as a cement for glass, pottery, and stoneware; for fireproofing paper, wood, cement, and other substances; for fixing pigments in paintings and cloth printing; and for preserving eggs (it fills the pores in the eggshell, preventing entrance of air)."I have not seen water glass since I was a kid.You can buy it here.http://shop2.chemassociates.com/
One good thing about vinyl floors - when styles change every 6-8 years, it's already worn out and ready for ya
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Re: "Particle board cabs with thin veneer skin. In this humid climate, they turn to mush in no time."A friend call them 'pitchfork cabinets'. As in a few years in the humid south the best tool to use to get them into the dumpster is a pitchfork.
Vinyl siding period. A tract builder in Houston used vinyl siding over insulating foam board. Wired for security system but windows and doors only...no motion detector wiring.
If the windows and doors are on a security system.....what does it take to break into a home.... a utility knife.....just cut thru the vinyl and foam board, remove the insulation and cut thru the drywall.
het tex
no matter what kind of sheathing it is
we build em and have tools like cordless sawzalls
electricians wire em
so on and so on
alarms are to keep the honest thieves out
when i was building on the beach i used to get a kick out of the people that had safes installed in walls floors whatever
come right down to it they are only held in by nails
Due to recent budget cuts the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.
Edited 1/16/2006 4:35 pm ET by mrmojo
"I also definitely hate bad vinyl siding jobs. " They're all cheap, and therefore, IMO, bad.
I'm not convinced the conversion to ACQ PT wood was really necessary, but, nevertheless, it's certainly created some additional expense and undue attention to selection of metal fasteners.
"BTW, I have never seen 1/2" subfloor allowed either. Least is 5/8" and that when it is to be combined with another ply of hardwood or underlayment."When I first started framing in 1982 1/2" cdx was all we ever used for subfloors on every single house and addition I framed and then either the framers would go back or the trimmers would go back and install 1/2 underlayment in all the rooms that were to have carpet. Oak floors went right on top of the 1/2 subfloor. That stopped about 1988 and we've been using 3/4" T&G glued ever since and nothing else on top.Joe Carola
wow. Lightweight occupants only?
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"wow. Lightweight occupants only?"No.We have some pretty big occupants in Jersey.Joe Carola
>> This was furthered annoyed when they also moved from 3/4" T&G plywood subflooring to 1/2" T&G OSB. << WOW - hadn't heard of that one! Hard to believe... Are you sure it is 1/2"? I'm not sure I ever have seen 1/2" T&G OSB material. BTW I feel that some 3/4" OSB products are superior to 3/4" plywood as plywood delaminates when it gets wet.
Along the same lines, I hate that Therma-ply stuff. At least the rigid foam sheathing (which BTW is not new at all) is backed up by some kind of excuse.
At least the rigid foam sheathing (which BTW is not new at all) is backed up by some kind of excuse.
Excuses don't have contain common sense, logic, or be rational. They just have to be a response to a question, or accusation. Find me one builder that I contract in a development that will build me the same house but with OSB sheathing and they'll tack on $5K.
And what good is thermal performance if you, the builder, allow the siding sub crew to cut it up and punch 2-3" holes in it everytime the miss the studs behind it?
Plywood subfloor are not too good at less than 1 1/8" thick - talk about gettin' cheap
Like Matt said - The foam exterior stuff isn't new at all. Around here OSB became popular simply because it was cheap and energy was cheap. I wouldn't be surprised to see a move back towards exterior insulation board if energy prices stay high.
Using all ply on the exterior is actually pretty wasteful as far a lumber is concerned. You just don't need that much shear strength.
I've never heard of 1/2" ply for subfloors. Are you sure about that?
"Using all ply on the exterior is actually pretty wasteful as far a lumber is concerned. You just don't need that much shear strength."
If the house is a post a beam, I could understand that comment. Isn't the strength of a stick frame house in the skin? The answer is yes, unless you are installing cross or 45 bracing on the corners. OSB when it is kept dry, has minimal shear strength but get it wet over time and it has none.
Local building code requirements in my area have increased the minimum on roof sheathing to 5/8 plywood. They will soon concentrate their efforts on wall and floor sheathing as OSB becomes more problematic.
Price arguments (cost savings) have dissipated since recent hikes in OSB pricing have brought it closer to plywood. I recently priced 3/4 T&G advantec (like I would ever use it anyway) against my tried and true 3/4 T&G fir 7 ply and was surprised to see the retail was the same at $34.95.
The CM
Edited 1/15/2006 4:45 pm ET by the cm
"Isn't the strength of a stick frame house in the skin?"
Yes. But a sheet in each corner is enough. The only exception would be in areas with seismic loads.
"OSB when it is kept dry, has minimal shear strength..."
OSB has plenty of shear strength. More than enough for residential framing.
Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today.
Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime.
Teach a man to sell fish and he eats steak.
I've never heard of 1/2" ply for subfloors
Boss, when I started in the trades, every floor we did was 1/2 cdx. It didn't have to be tongue and groove either because it later got a layer of 5/8 particle board underlayment.
Ahhh, those were the days....
blue
Blue,When I started framing 1/2" cdx was all we used for sub-floor also and then 1/2" underlayment was put on top where all carpets went. Oak flooring was nailed right on top of the 1/2" sub-floor.Joe Carola
Joe, I guess were showing our age when we talk about two floor systems.
That might be an idea worth revisiting!
blue
"Joe, I guess were showing our age when we talk about two floor systems."Wait a minute. Aren't you old enough to be my Daddy?.........;-)Joe Carola
I was going to say I remembered two floor systems too , but I don't want anybody to think I'm old.
At least 1/2" ply was 5 ply back then.
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
got a layer of 5/8 particle board underlayment.
and, for a few years, then the tile.
be thinking acq in 5 years
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Back to the 1/2" subfloor -- back in the early 70's in Georgia, I subbed the 5/8 particle board underlayment on top of the 1/2" cdx - for 5 cents a square foot. At least until I realized it was costing me 6 or 7 cents for saw blades! (carbide was too new-fangled & expensive at the time!)
Pet peeve - Radiused corners on drywall...like the look but hate the way base and crown wrap around them. Segmented miters look bad to my eye, filled with caulk, barf! Pre-curved pieces standing proud of base look out of place and add too much detail to something that should blend in.
The best solution I've seen is the transition of DW corner from radiused to square at ceiling and or floor.
Who makes those corner trim transitions?
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Trim-Tex maskes them.http://www.trim-tex.comLook for the product called the "Bulladapter." It's located in the products section in the "Bullnose Accessories" subcategory.I was trying to get a builder I was trimming for to get them...but NOOOO, I got stuck doing the stupid three piece to get around every bullnose outside corner. I worry about durability, too, with those corners. Even glued and nailed a carpet guy or furniture mover could wreak some havoc on a corner. A regular 90 corner seems stronger.
Check out Trim-Tex for those round to square corners.I am 99% sure I have the name correct--just don't have their brochure handy.Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
trim-tex drywall beads
Packaging worth more than what's inside.
"hanging" chimneys with ANY siding
Blue shinglesTroy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
I like blue shingles.
Good... so?Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
what are you trying to say there?
i know you are not trying to start something.
that would be insane.
I think he got off topic and is talking about some fancy ladies
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Too funny Paul. Actually I was referring to packaging on tapes etc that take longer to get off than the life of the tape. But the fancy women idea is better than mine...
You were born the best day ever 6/20/77, same day as me.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Here are a few of mine, though not as substantial as you guys, but they still annoy me.
1)Design, The average house today is just plain butt ugly. Roof lines have disappeared, with no eaves. Windows are too small, corner boards and other details are out of scale. No one pays attention to proportion anymore.
2)Doorways wrapped in wall board, sorry doorways should be cased in wood. A doorway with no trim just doesn't look right.
That's it, just minor stuff! :)
I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
I think roof trusses are overused to minimize the skill needed to frame a house. While they have their place, I have always preferred cut-and-stack roofs.
And while nailguns are a necessary tool, I think framing nailguns have made many jobsites more dangerous.
MDF is an inexpensive alternative to wood in many applications, but I hate it when its used for door casing. It absolutely shreds like cardboard when bumped.
I don't like those plastic picket fences popping up all over the place - so cheezy looking! And plastic interior trim, I don't like plastic interior trim, either.
And I really don't like it when metal hardware is used as a substitute for craftsmanship - you know, sloppy joints with a metal brace and a bazillion little nails.
I don't mind OSB roof sheathing, but I don't like it when its used on exposed eaves.
And I don't really like the current trend here in So. Cal. to eliminate eaves altogether, just nailing the fascia to the side of the house. Eaves serve an important function providing sun and rain protection.
I don't like the cookie-cutter appearance of many neighborhoods - large tracts with maybe three models used over and over and over ad nauseum.
Hoo-boy, I'm just getting warmed up to the subject! Guess I'll give it a rest, for now.
"I think roof trusses are overused to minimize the skill needed to frame a house. "
I think that's a very narrow minded and very wrong attitude. There are planty of reasons to use roof trusses.
I once worked as a human cannonball, but got injured. They had to find someone of the same caliber to replace me.
"I think roof trusses are overused to minimize the skill needed to frame a house. "
I think that's a very narrow minded and very wrong attitude. There are planty of reasons to use roof trusses.
--------------------------
Sure, there are plenty of reasons to use roof trusses. Thats why I said, they have their place. I'm not entirely against them in all instances, sorry if I gave that impression.
There are planty of reasons to use roof trusses.Sign at a local truss shope"In God we truss all others use common rafters"
Ever wonder about the invention of "popcorn" ceilings and swag(hanging on a chain) llights? all thes were an attempt by product designers to hide the fact that the bottom chord of trusses lay about as flat as an old gravel road coming up out of a steep bottom. understand the path of new product developement. It goes from the bright young( read:just out of school) young developers to the engineers and the marketing people. these guys(for the most part, d0nt own a hammer) Before any new product or tech. is introduced the bo5tom line is carefully examined. I.E, can we mqake more money convincing people this is a better way? Don't get me wrong, sometimes they accidently? come up with a good Idea. Just need to take a hard look at any "new" tech. Jim
The other problem is that trusses often "float" over interior walls, meaning a quarter inch camber is built in to the bottom chord, and they are not structurally attached to the top plate of interor walls. So the ceiling sheetrock adjacent to parallel interior walls (with backing nailed on top of the wall) is 1/4" lower than the ceiling sheetock adjacent to perpendicular interior walls. It makes for a sloppy detail at the corners, and if you put a wallpaper border, or crown molding, it really shows. And truss lift during seasonal changes can exacerbate the problem, creating recurring cracks.
None of which is adequate reason to rule out truss roofs, like I said. But I just don't like to witness the "dumbing down" of the construction industry as a whole, and I'm finding fewer and fewer carpenters really know how to cut and stack a complex roof.
"...a quarter inch camber is built in to the bottom chord..."
Just FYI - Not all truss plants build camber into trusses. The first 2 that I worked for did, but the last 3 haven't.
If you don't like the camber it might be worth asking around, or asking the company you buy from NOT to camber.
What makes him think a middle-aged actor, who's played with a chimp, could have a future in politics?" [Ronald Regan, on Clint Eastwood's bid to become mayor of Carmel]
Not all truss plants build camber into trusses
That's news to me, and worth knowing. So I assume the truss is allowed to sit on the top plate of interior walls, but is just not structurally attached? (as in truss clips with the nail slot?)
Theoretically the truss doesn't REST on the interior walls. It just happens to kinda touch them. They shouldn't be fastened to the walls, as they need to be able to move with truss uplift and/or other changes in the structure.
The lessons most difficult to learn are those with the greatest rewards.
1. Brand new hardwood floors that squeak, crackle and roll.
2. Crappy baseboard details on the tops and bottoms of stairways.
The CM
Fiberboard trim. Ok, it doesn't warp or splinter, but get it wet and it's oatmeal in the time it takes to eat breakfast. It mushrooms if you're not careful, and in my experiance, the miters open every time unless glued/biscuited. On the plus side, it's available in long lengths.
Fingerjointed pine trim is another 'iffy' product that can make a house look low class. I've seen the stuff used outside and watched the seams at the joints swell, making the trim look like a giant ruler. Just ugly.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
You don't like FJ pine outside?
I LOVE IT!
I roll up to quote on replacing exterior trim and see the stuff, and I see dollar signs.
When I tell them what I charge for Hemlock, why I use it and the length of service time, I almost always get the job and make a reasonable profit - much higher than if I replaced the original with like materials and had callbacks.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
You don't like FJ pine outside?I LOVE IT!
LOL. I'm assuming you love it when others use it and you get to replace it. I won't even use FG brick molding anymore, I use a pvc alternative. I've replace miles of brick molding, and find that the PVC variety is a good seller for replacement. People don't want to have to replace the molding again in another X number of years.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Assumption correct. Replacement is great.
I have not seen PVC brickmold here, so I use Hemlock. It's expensive, but with backpriming and flashing, it can last 70 years+, so the per year cost is low.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
As far as "modern" goes, rather than just "cheap", I'd have to say ACQ-treated lumber. CCA was so much better- its elimination was a darned shame in my opinion.
I'm also suspicious of the exterior drywall I see used around here for sheathing. I've seen lots of places where it's been exposed to the elements far longer than its 90 day rated exposure limit. I'd never buy a house sheathed with that stuff.
Most of the rest is preference issues rather than the total take-over of some new, inferior product or method. As long as the older alternatives stay out there as a choice, I'm all for new methods to choose from.
& this is not a joke either
I don't like political correctness
Not saying an open reason to be rude
But --- a pair of dykes---- manhole cover------ men working sign
& here is the biggie if I get another business card that says "foreperson" I'm gonna puke.
- "drive in" lockset bolts - also the kind that are (sorta) held in the door with a flimsy excuse for a washer-plate.
- switchboxes with side brackets - a lot harder to remove from the wall and retro - wire.
- poor directions that tell you everything you don't want to know poorly in 7 languages.
- insulting warning lables.
- insulation wrappers that are stuck on such that they tear up the first piece of insulation-backer.
- caulking tubes with the "million dollar bubble" of air that makes caulk "weep, weep, weep" until "belch point".
>> - insulting warning lables. <<
One brand of doors we use comes with "This side out" on the door glass and sidelite glass. The actual purpose is for the people who fabricate the prehung door units in a door shop, but I always felt it might give the wrong impression to future home owners who are walking their house under-construction who might be thinking the sticker is there to help with installation of the door... :-)
You laugh. I had a carp install a wood screeen/storm outsidein once!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Was his name Paul???
Mr. T.
There's a steering-wheel in me pants and it's driving me nuts!!!
two!!!
no - but I'll hold back, 'cause it's a common name here at BT.not5 same person, but same name.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>> wood screeen/storm outsidein once! <<
Hummmmmm.... Yea, but I had to think about that one for about 4 seconds.. :-)
I haven't read the rest of these yet. I'm off to bed I'll read them tommorrow. I wanted to add that I agree with you on the foam board.
One "Method" I hate is the general lack of profesionalism. Showing up in Tennis shoes is one of my biggest gripes. And the general lack of courtesty as far as keeping apointments or returning calls. It's the the little things. I know you weren't looking for it but I had to get it off my chest.
Night.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
OUTSIDE:
1) Stucco, stucco, stucco. Flashing? Hey, it's a dry climate, who needs that?
2) Elevated decks (on above stucco mansions) with OSB subfloor under the tile and no drain in sight - Hey, it's a dry climate...
3) 5-foot setbacks, no windows on the facing sides, just blank stucco
4) Gaudy, glaring outdoor lights - just think some people actually enjoy looking at the stars, not stucco mansions
5) Silly, out-of-proportion columns on a 3' x 10' portico to "impress" people as they enter
6) Pretentious, oversized, cheaply-made fountains (in front of stucco mansions) wrapped with blue tarps in the Winter months.
INSIDE:
7) 12-foot ceilings in bathrooms, and a noisy, 50 CFM exhaust fan (probably vents into the attic to boot)
8) Open-concept floor plans taken to extreme - crapper visible when you walk in the front door (yep a $750K house!)
9) Stained concrete floors in living areas (looks just like marble - yeah right)
10) Plastic "glass" block windows
11) $5 doorbell buttons on a $1.2M house
Plastic "glass" block windows
hoowee, put that right up there alongside a fake brick fireplace.
be whatta they think up next?
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Fake hardwood floors?
Nevermind...
I hate vinyl siding. I hate the new ACQ wood. There was no reason to change, unless you let your infant teethe on your decking. I hate things that aren't what they're supposed to be: Like plastic laminate made to look like butcher block. Nothing wrong with plastic but if you want plastic, use plastic; if you want butcher block, use maple. I'll probably think of a few other things later.
NCtim
I hate the new ACQ wood. There was no reason to change, unless you let your infant teethe on your decking.
LOL. Maybe I'm ignorant, buy I couldn't agree more. Seems to me like ACQ was a knee-jerk reaction to some EPA propaganda. Been wrong before though.View Image
can't blame that one on the gubrmint. The EPA - or was it the CDC? - actually did the studies after being forced to by enviro suits. They found that there was no accountable danger when properly used with the CCA.The enviros went ahead and initiated lawsuits against the lumber industry which voluntarily pulled the product figuring it was cheaper to acquiesce than to fight it in court where every jury crys over the sob storeys and listens to the junk science ex perts.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm with the others about ACQ--I just don't understand how every old school framer that's been around CCA for years isn't getting cancer or some kind of poisoning....LOL
With our litigious (sp?) society, why can't all us tradesmen band together and get a class-action lawsuit against the Manu's of ACQ?Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Well... like I said. "Been wrong before". :)
All I know is that the CCA decks I built up to ten years ago are still standing and nobody's kids came out with three arms or had their head fall off.
I also know that every time I work with ACQ, my palms itch and I get a red burning rash across my legs if I was carrying it against my sweaty jeans. I also grew a tail last time I was putting sills down.
All right. I was lieing about the last part.View Image
I get the rash and raised red spots - right through heavy new jeans.
Hate
hate
hate the stuff!We're only on the tip of the iceberg with this stuff. Wait 'till the number of decks faling on peoples heads jumps way up in a few years. They'll sure be looking for a lawsuit target then
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Seems to me like ACQ was a knee-jerk reaction to some EPA propaganda.
You are soooo right! I've got a buddy in Charlotte that owns a pressure treat company, he's lost all of his long-time employees since the change. The short time guy had been there 22 years. Health problems plague this new change. This new sh*t is dangerous stuff. He's got a bunch of Mexicans working for him now. I guess they don't complain when the skin is falling off of their hands and elbows, and their lips stick to their lunch. I guess that's EPA approved; Recycled lips in your food. You know---recycled, food, . . . ehyep! Good stuff!
Maybe if they didn't wipe their runny noses with the back of their contaminated gloves and their masks were actually on their faces. But, Hey!, the guys that trained them didn't need masks and gloves with CCA. So I guess they weren't properly trained, were we?
I think not! They just jam this crap down our throat and expect everyone else to be the guinea pigs. Let's start a class action suit against the EPA, and eat an owl for dinner. Yummy! Tastes like chicken.
NCtim
check with your freind again. The EPA was not behind this.
People look silly in court trying to sue the wrong party.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What a BS post!
I don't like ACQ either, but what ever you're using to resist bugs and decay, it's a poison....last time I checked, arsenic (from the CCA formula) wasn't exactly good for one's diet. The problem with ACQ is the elevated copper levels which are the source of the corrosion.
The anecdotal rantings of your buddy are a little out there and far-fetched.
Some people are more sensitive to chemicals than others. I used to manage the chemical emersion process of export clear Doug fir. The long-term preferred fungicide was Pentachlorophenol (now mostly abolished) which was admittedly bad stuff in some regards (occasional spills resulted in elevated dioxin levels in groundwater, for example). But the replacement chemical, also a poison, was harmless to some and caused nosebleeds in others.
If you're going to spout off about something, try to toss a few verifiable facts in.
The skin irritation is likely associated with the 'quaternary' part of the formula. A mix of strong detergents. Detergents are antimicrobial that work by destroying the cell membrane and are commonly used to disinfect hospitals. The detergents first cut the skin oils and then defat the skin. Which, in heavy and repeated exposure, destroys the cellular structure of upper layers of the skin.You can see, or may be familiar with, a similar effect when Zippo lighter is overfilled with fluid. The naphtha similarly defats the skin. Typical process is redness and roughness. Then soreness and a raw spot. If the exposure is long the healing process can be a long series of thin crusts and peeling as the defatted skin is pushed up and sloughed of. The process can take weeks.A carpenter, with a industrial hygienist for a father, uses several sets of cotton and leather gloves. He changes them out if they get damp from water or sweat. They are washed before being worn again. He also regularly uses a lanolin based hand cream as barrier and at the end of the day. His wife brags about his soft hands.Aside. The way I understand it the wood treatment companies folded and gave up on CCA because the preponderance of the scientific evidence was against them. Evidence shows a clear link between the arsenic in CCA and low level poisoning and persistent ground contamination. Arsenic levels of the dirt or fill in many tested playgrounds were well above minimum levels. Some tests of children who play in these playgrounds showed a elevated arsenic level. Such exposures are linked to subtle brain damage which can permanently lower IQ and cause lifelong behavioral issues.The chromate is no slouch on the potential for harm either. It is a known carcinogen. The weight of the evidence was against CCA and the companies resisted change for forty years as the studies were made and evidence piled up. In the end they folded simply because they no longer had a leg to stand on. It had to be done.
I don't mind the new ACQ since as you mention, it's an alternative to the arsenic laden choice of old. I'm not sensitive to it though and can understand if someone else had problems how it would become a problem to some. A necessary evil?
My biggest pet peeve about modern construction has to be the combination of waste along with the noticeable drop in quality overall. I pass new subdivisions where whole dumpsters are full of lumber cutoffs and someone is cutting up blocking out of full sized stock. Ridiculous... I guess the fact that trees are dozed from the tracts keep the carpenters from considering where their materials come from.
In all honesty, does anyone think what they're working on is going to last like some of the old structures which have stood a hundred or more years? Maybe the mentality of immediate gratification and the almighty dollar is keeping everyone in the here and now rather than thinking how their work will be looked upon by some future generation. The old timers didn't caulk their finish work... and I can look at a well built home from a hundred years ago and think how much that carpenter took care to do his best because it's still holding up now. In terms of dollars and cents, I'd have to say his work is the best value. We're burying ourselve in waste and worthless projects to keep this engine alive without considering whether this engine is in fact worth keeping alive with the course we've set.
I know most on here are conscientious about their quality but too many 'contractors' out there care for nothing more than a paycheck to cover their incessant need for more throw-away crap to surround themselves with.
An excellent point.
I had a builder friend of mine ask the other day "what do you think you're doing, building for a hundred years?" (I always overbuild a little) and I reminded him that I was constructing a home and they're supposed to at least outlast the current owner. He spec builds here in town and as with all spec builders the motivation to minimize costs is a constant issue. From a business standpoint, I can understand, to some degree. From a product standpoint, I fail to see the satisfaction of producing something that falls apart and shows major faults within a two year time period (like his houses do). His argument, if you want to call it one, was that, by law, he only had to warranty his product for one year. Unbelievable. What an attitude.
Honestly, I would like to think that the homes I build will be able to be seen by my great grand kids. I would really like it if, in the future, someone pointed to one of my houses and said "they don't build them like that anymore", or "have you seen the interior of that house, its crazy nice". I know I talk like some kind of madman, but I also unconditionally guarantee my houses for five years and this really helps with the sale up front. I have never, in 20 years, had a callback on one of my custom homes. I have to say though, I was a spec builder in the early eighties and that is a different story. I guess we learn from our mistakes.
The CM
Edited 1/17/2006 7:56 am ET by the cm
"...they're supposed to at least outlast the current owner..."or at least the mortgage on it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
All.......Nails, with the heads on the wrong end, kinda like some days when I wonder where my head was.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
I gotta say I was being somewhat facetious about body parts falling off. I'm not a chemical engineer, just passing on the fact that he's had all his long-time employees move on since the change.
Personally, I've experienced what looks like a sunburn on my face around my dust mask after cutting a bunch of this crap. Like Piffin I've also had red thighs after taking my jeans off when handling this crap. Mostly when it's damp, and it usually is, even from Lowes where they store it inside.
If you're not affected by it, good for you. I'll tell my buddy, who's been in this business for 30 years, that you think he's full of BS.
NCtim
P.S. See if your dog will lay on your ACQ porch when it's raining. They're pretty smart about these things.
I'm wondering if carpenter bees will eat into ACQ?
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Brings up the point well.
A modern method that sucks is the continual demolition of these ancient well timbered homes that still are stronger after hundred plus years than some of this new crap being thrown up in place of it.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'
No one will provoke me with impunity
BEIGE VINYL SIDING BEIGE VINYL SIDING BEIGE VINYL SIDING BEIGE VINYL SIDING BEIGE VINYL SIDING BEIGE VINYL SIDING BEIGE VINYL SIDING
you get the idea.
Beige? Can we add blue to that, too?
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Blue would be a nice change.
DP
How about an old method that I miss?
The guild system. They still use a form of it in the unions, but a formal version is non existent in most trades. Apprentice, journeyman, to master. All while working under the same person/company.
Now, every ding dong that can answer an add in the newspaper thinks he is a carpenter. There is no way to verify their experience, or ability.
In the guild system, apprentices apply to work for a company, and then start out as an apprentice. Over years, they gradually work their way up to journeyman. Their pay would increase as their skill level increased. Eventually, they would become a master, and start training an apprentice of their own.
It's this hands on training, and wright of passage that kept the trades pure. Now the trades are becoming polluted/dilluted by the need for faster/cheaper labor.
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
90% of the builders (developers, custom and track), and subcontractors use labor that is neither registered nor certified in the work being done around me. And advertising a job opening is not required. Redneck simply signs need for additional laborer to the Latino he already has, and he brings a friend along the next day.
How's that for modern day guild system?
What country or state do you live in? I've never been registered to work either, and to the best of my knowledge, I have never hired anyone who was registered or certified.But always skilled and willing to work American citizens
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have a certificate,
From what I've been told, to operate a business in the state of Georgia for provider subcontractor skilled work (mason, framer, electrician, plumber, etc.) you must pass a state exam. But, I fear this is only done by one person in the sub company and everyone else is 'labor'. Only problem is that 99.9% of the time the builders attendant doesn't catch all of the mistakes and the licensed tradesman is never going to fix a mistake unless made to. Hence, the prolific condition of POS housing in Georgia.
OK - let me get this straight - you are saying theat there are no quality builders in the state Georgia? Or did you simply buy this house you own and distain based maiinly on price?
>> to operate a business in the state of Georgia for provider subcontractor skilled work (mason, framer, electrician, plumber, etc.) you must pass a state exam. << State exam for masons and framers? That's pertty interesting. Please provide more more data.
No, I am not saying there are no quality builders in the state of Georgia. I am saying that those quality builders tend to focus on custom building, and those quality track builders are completely not seen by the shear abundance of bad track builders that are in much larger numbers than the quality builders in track building.
Also, I am saying that those bad track builders are more than willing to tolerate lethargic site supervisors, who in turn accept and live with whatever the laborers perform for the subcontractor company owners, and is equally matched by lethargic county building inspection that have been investigate by news media on more than one occasion to reveal the average amount of time spent by the county on a track home is 5-minutes or less before COO is handed over.
The apparent buying and selling trend seems to have for some wonderful opportunity during the 1995-2001 period in which growth in population was rampant and anyoue was calling themself a builder (changing names with each law suit). And when you match no-qualifying conditions for builders to almost blind county inspection in a growth environment you wind up with a lot of first-time homebuyers getting bitten the hard way. Yes, I was a first-time buyer and chalked up everything I've experienced to that condition. Lesson learned.
Please don't place global conditions when I am focusing on track builders. The chances of a bad track builder are high, but the chances of them becoming successful in custom building are quite low.
OK - gotcha. Didn't realize you were mainly refering to tract builders.
>> 90% of the builders (developers, custom and track), and subcontractors use labor that is neither registered nor certified in the work being done around me. And advertising a job opening is not required. Redneck simply signs need for additional laborer to the Latino he already has, and he brings a friend along the next day. <<
Let me tell you how it works... I hire only insured subcontractors who also have to fill out a W-9 form (which includes a real Tax-ID). If they don't fulfill these 2 requirements they do not get paid - period. As far as >> neither registered nor certified <<, what is that? If you feel that is needed, you best take it up with your state or local government. It's not a builder problem.
And here is the bad news: for some jobs I'd prefer to have Latinos. These guys work very hard, are happy to have a job and don't mind doing 10 hour or 11 hour days 6 days a week if that is what it takes. None of this goig home because it's 4:30 when there is 1.5 hours of work left to do. For example, the bricklayers and landscapers I use often work until it is dark. Wears the hell out of me, but the job gets done. Most specialize in a particular type of work, and are like anyone else, some are more skilled that others. It's the crew leader(s) who set the standard of quality for the crew, and some guys just end up carrying plywood - it doesn't matter if they are black, white, yellow, brown or green. Granted, in some situations they need more supervision but here is the icing on the cake: they do what I tell them to do. They don't sit there and argue for the easier way out... If it's a lot of extra work, they tell me how much it's gonna cost me - and they don't get pissed off.
Also, in the neighborhood I just finished up in, I was required by the city to have a minimum of 15% minority subcontractors.
As far as the >> Redneck << who does the hiring, it's true that I have a better suntan than most of the geek office workers build houses for. And I wouldn't trade places with them for any amount of money - unless it was enough such that I could retire within the next 3 years :-). I've done the office gig and it's just not right for me. Who knows - maybe that even makes me smarter than average - that I can make a good living and not have to drag myself a cubical farm everyday;-)
Never seen 1/2" t&g OSB in Colorado.
Life and suffering are inseparable.
I don't like modern wood wall framing or roof framing...the modern wood structural elements. I like it for non-structural elements, but not fond of a material that can swell, dry, warp, rot, etc., for the super-structure.
Figure y'all will love that one! <G>
Edited 1/19/2006 10:27 am ET by CloudHidden
I hate the fittings from the Pegasus line of faucets sold at Home Depot Expo Centers.
I cheaped out and am paying dearly for it. I bought one for a spec house. Thank goodness, the plumbers recognized the problem early--otherwise I would have to replace the hardwood floors in the Powder Room. Say no to Pegasus--stick with the hard core basics--Grohe, Moen, Delta,Hansgrohe, Kohler ---anything but a manufacturer that would put a crimp-like fitting under a faucet!