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I’m involved in a kitchen remodeling which requires new cabinets & coutertops, ceramic floor, wall preparation, installation of new window, removal of baseboard heating & installation of toe kick heater on separte zone. I have concerns involving the recommendations of the contractor that is doing the work and would very much appreciate guidance from both professionals in this field as well as home owners who have dealt with incompetent contractors.
The progress of the work to date is as follows:
All cabinets removed, baseboard heating replaced with toe kick, 1/4 inch plywood down on top of old vinyl floor & 1/4 inch plywood, over 1/2 inch floor boards and 1 inch tongue in groove floor boards. Framed & sheetrocked soffet, padded walls with sheetrock around installed window and where cabinets will be installed.
Questions:
1. should the old flooring and plywood been riped up? Will a new ceramic floor be too heavy? How can squeaks be eliminated? Is the new 1/4 inch plywood stable enough to accommodate the tile?
2. sheetrock around the window is even on one side but exceeds by 1/2 inch on the other side which was padded by a strip of wood which also exceeds the rough opening. Obviously the moldings will not be even on either side of window. Also the addition of sheetrock to the wall around the bathroom door is proud. On one side no sheetrock was added inorder to sink the molding. On the other side the sheetrock was applied over the jam which puts the moldings at 1 1/4 inch disparity. I met with the contractor for an hour & a half to discuss the installation of the sheetrock and how I wanted the problems addressed. He has not followed any of my instructions and has done a shotty job. What recommedations do you have to correct this?
3. Since some sheetrock was intalled where live wiring is, I now have lost electriciy to some over head lighting. No circuit beakers are off. Could there be some kind penatration to the wiring? Would this be a safty issue?
I’m at a point where I have lost all confidence in the abilities of the contractor and do not want to continue with him. He is insulting and condesending, he does not complete the work as agreed upon, he does not clean up after his work and he locked me out of the house even after I specifically told him to only lock the deadbolt. It cost $75 to have a locksmith come out & drill the lock. To say the least I am very unhappy.
How do I go about firing him? How do I evaluate the dollar value of the work that has been done since I do not have an itemized list of the costs for each aspect of the job? Are there legal avenues for me to follow at this time and who should I contact? Does the work have to be stopped and settled in court before I can seek a competent contractor to complete the work? Will another contractor be willing to get involved with the job at all or am I completely stuck?
I need help and would I appreciate any advice on this matter. Thank You.
Replies
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Hmmm?
Was there any permitting on this job? I would hope so with the scope of the work being done. Permitting andor a written project scope and methods (i.e. HOW the new floor would be installed in writing) covers both the client and contractor's back in case of a difference of opinions of methods as the project progresses.
Some of the things you mention are cosmetic which inspections cannot help you with but others like the loss of lighting and possible wiring problems are definite saftey issues. Once again permitting and inspections.
He locked you out of your own house?! Sounds like real fun to be part of that job.
I'd call a few other contractors in your area. Offer to pay them to come out and give you a written opinion of the work they see before them and tell them your situation and that you are looking to hire someone else to finish the job. Having their direct input is vital as they can see the job and make a first hand opinion. But don't badmouth the first guy as even though youthemanyone else knows he may be a slacker, it doesn't make anything better by putting him down. Just say you were dissappointed in his work so you are looking elsewhere for completion of the job.
In the meantime, I'd call your local building authority. (Here is where having it be a permitted job is important) Tell them what you are experiencing and see what they give you as options as resolving the problem. (small claims court, mediation, etc.)
Also, photograph and video tape everything along the way as you'll likley want to finish the job long before anything would be resolved on the judicial level if that is what it takes.
And one thing you failed to mention is whether you owe the contractor money or he owes you work? That situation can alter many attitudes from both him and you about how the problems will be resolved.
Good luck!
Mike
*Since none of us know the contractor, or the customer, how could anyone give any shred of advice to you? Maybe he is a hack, maybe you don't realize that the job isn't done yet. Did you get references? See past work? Obviously you had the confidence in his bid to have him do the work or was he just the lowest bid........too many factors, to little info. Problem is, I know alot of these sharks will give you all sorts of advise to string this guy up, sue him, take his truck and tools, leave him pennyless, I'm on a personal crusade against them and their "eat our own mentality". I would love to see this thread die right here and everyone just shake their heads and say "don't know can't say"....but they won't......
*Keith has a point. Are you hawking this guy, meaning coming in immediatly after he has left for the day and looking over his work. Give the guy a chance and let him finish the job. Have you ever made a cake. When you dump the eggs into the mix it sure looks bad but in a few moments after mixing and baking then adding frosting man it looks and taste good. If his work is up to standards meets code ect, or not its aweful hard to tell with just a description. I have a freind who tried to fry a contractor kept hawking him complaining to the state contractors board ect for shoddy work ect, called me up i went over and everything that he made sound like the end of the world turned out to be just small appearance items and now he is bragging how much his house is worth.
*Memoos,Sounds alot like the kind of questions I like to hear long before I write up an agreement.1. Involved; what does this mean? You the owner?2. No specs for subfloor? You assumed.......what?3. No specs for drywall substrate? 4. Busted light bulbs from all the pounding? A nail though a wire usually results in a snapped breaker or a fire......usually.5. What kind of agreement/contract did you have with the contractor?6. How did the contractor convice you to stay off the property? And why would he lock you out?Perhaps more information would be helpful.
*Thanks for your response. It was the most positive and pro active as far as what I can do now. I was not advise to get a permit. If a permit is required, would the contractor know that and get it for the job? The contractor agreed the night before to be on sight/do the drywall. I only use the deadbolt and do not carry a key for the knob. So I specifically contacted the contractor not to lock the knob, only the deadbolt. Not only was he not there to do/supervise the work, he did not communicate to his workers how to lock up. Therefore locking me out. The scope of the job is listed in written form signed by both of us. But the "quality" of workmanship is what I doubt now. And whether, I should entrust him to go any further. Drywall is more easily corrected or removed and replaced properly. But once he gets on to the cabinetry and countertops, I have serious money at stake. If the tile is improperly installed or the foundation for the installation inadequate, I could have a real mess. Not that I don't already. I agreed to do the taping & compounding. But with the rough cuts, gaps etc I have alot more patching than I expected. I'll call the building authority on Monday, and take pictures tomorrow. I had planned to have the walls all sanded and primed this weekend, so the cabinets could be installed this week and get the job done. But my gut is telling me not to go any further and to seek reimbursement. I'm sure I'm upside down on this. So your advice to get other contractor's opinions as to the valuation of the work to date is a start in the right direction. My present contractor was referred to me by someone I trusted. Perhaps he is unaware of how this guy works. I'll be calling him to let him know what I'm experiencing, so he can reevaluate whether he wants to refer anyone else. I want my kitchen done right. I have a lot invested and I expect my contractor to care about my satisfaction. I don't get that from him. I'm not out to get anybody, I'm looking to protect myself and my investment. I'm seeking advice on the situation from my point of view and what's at stake for me. After all I live in this house and will be here long after the contractor is gone. If it's time to cut the cord with this guy, I'm looking to do it in a fair and equitable way for both of us. When is enough enough?Appreciate you input. Will follow through with your suggestions. Thanks..
*Thanks for your response. 1. Yes, I'm the home owner.2. I get conflicting advice regarding sub floor. The most expedient way is to nail down quarter inch, which is what he has done, but is it the best way? My experience so far is that this contractor wants to be in & out, get the job done by cutting corners, rushing his workers, & get paid. I'm looking at the long term value of the work, not just how it appears the day after, but how it will hold up over time. 3. Don't know what a substrate is. 4. No busted light bulbs. No circuits off. But maybe the continuity has been compromised. Leaving me with some lights out. It means I have to get the electrician back, at who's expense?5. Agreement listed the work to be done and the price. How this is to be accomplished and how some situations are to be resolved is discussed verbally. However, the actions taken are inconsistent with the plan we agree upon, requiring rework and delay. I knew going into this that remodeling would be a hardship but that's the way it is. But how long do I have to suffer the inconvenience of a ripped out kitchen due to rework and re-scheduling?6. Locking me out was the "straw" I was at work, the deadbolt key was left for entry and exit. Contractor was supposed to be on my job, and was specifically told not to lock the knob, only lock the deadbolt and leave the extra key. He was not on my job, the drywall was not installed correctly, and he did not communicate, or mis-communicated, the locking of the door. He doesn't listen, he doesn't retain, he doesn't communicate information. Any or all of the above. The bottom line is I'm seeking the advice of others as to whether my experiences are the norm or whether I have unfortunately ended up with the bottom of the barrel? And do I continue or do I move on? How do I value the work that's been done and how do I get back part of the money I've already paid? Am I in for a long drawn out legal battle? Does all work have to be discontinued until whenever? Do poorly done jobs ever turn around? Or are they just covered up? I'm searching for the solution to resolve this dilemna. Have you had any experiences such as this? Appreciate your input.
*Have we had any experiences like this? You bet. Both as a provider and purchaser. Obviously none of us can tell you anything about the quality of the work without actually seeing it. He may be a hack or he may just not be finished or something in between. Your major beef is that he locked you out of your house. I've done this to myself and that's one person I can't fire.As I see it, your major problem is that you don't trust this guy. You are correct in thinking that you have to terminate your contract. Even with a carefully written contract with a full set of plans and specifications and full-time supervision, you cannot guarantee satisfaction in a job where there is no trust between the parties.You need to talk to the contractor, explain your viewpoint in a calm manner and make him an offer that he can accept. This may be quite a bit more than you think his work is worth but now is not the time to be worrying about money. The contractor can make your life miserable and why shouldn't he if he feels that you are reneging on a contract which he feels he has been fulfilling and for which you owe him money. So pay up and move on. I, for one, would not work on a uncompleted project for which someone had been left holding the bag.We work for a lot of fussy people and usually can make them happy. But not always. Recognize this in yourself. If you are very particular about details, be prepared to pay to have work redone and be prepared to be patient. You are not buying a product in a store that can be easily returned. You are making that product, by hand, in your home with an incomplete set of plans. Good luck
*> The most expedient way is to nail down quarter inch, which is what he has done, but is it the best way?Which are you paying for? How many bids did you get for this job? There are exceptions, but usually you get the "best way" when you pay the "best price" and the "most expedient" way when you pay the most "expedient price".As you discuss terminating the contract and the pay off price, you might want to ask for release of lien.Rich Beckman
*How did you find the contractor?
*I really think schelling hit the nail on the head. You need to talk with the contractor. Find out where he is at and why he is doing what he does such as the 1/4 ply and what a substrate is. Comunication is the key here. you need to talk to him and regain each others trust.
*memoos,As for the the 1/4" sub-floor, if that's what you agreed to and that's what he did, you got what you paid for. Now is not the time to question quality.Is there a better method? Of course! Again, now is not the time.As for the electricity, call a qualified Electrician. Stop living in doubt.Calling the building Dept. now after not getting permit may cause problems. It is the Owners responsibility to get permits. Call the city and you will need to complete the job with permits and perhaps a fine.How to get out of this mess.......You asked and Schelling answered. Have a sit down, present written expectation and be willing to let him finish, (you might consider hiring a outside supervisor to watch over your job) or fire him, and pay off what he demands.Get the job finished and THEN worry about turning your life upside-down in a legal battle.As least you'll be able to fix dinner....
*If your putting so much money into your kitchen and looking for lasting value, Why didn'didn't you have a working door Knob? Also why are you finishing the drywall? Sorry but something just don't smell right.
*No permits for an entire kitchen remodel?I know just for my porch (I'm in MA) that I needed 2 permits and 5 inspections. I may be wrong but shouldn't that have been a red flag?SJ
*I thought the contractor was responsible for obtaining the permits?
*Ron - He mentioned he was "advised" not to get a permit. Whatever that means. Did the contractor advise you to not get permits?SJ
*Ron,In most cities, it is the legal responsibility of the Owner of the property to insure that permits are pulled. I would suggest, (and most others) that it is the ethical duty of the contractor to inform the Owner permits are required for the scope of work proposed.
*This work sounds cosmetic...no structural changes(it seems). Possibly electrical permit, and a plumbing for a sink change in a REALLY tight metro area. Sub trades pull their own permits, no?
*Keith, True.....in some cities, to do the work described, You need plans, a license and a building permit. To hook up the sink and dishwasher, you need a licensed plumber with his permit. To wire the disposal and other gadgets, you need a licensed electrician with his permit.GC- $150 licence + $75 building permit= $225Plumber- $100 licence + $75 plumbing permit= $175Electrician- $100 licence + $75 electrical permit+ $175Total+ $575
*In NJ, the building inspector fined me and not the homeowner when he caught me building a deck without a permit. I suppose it varies with locale.Andy
*The subject of permits never came up in any conversations I had with the contractor. He never told me he needed one, he never told me I needed one, he never told me not to get one. The subject never came up! But in browsing this website, which I just learned about, I read some other discussions and I am now seeking info on my situation. Sounds like maybe the contractor should know when a permit is required. I would hope he thought it was part of the job. Not only for the customer's protection, but for his own protection. Sounds like an ethical duty to me. Remodeling is his domain. It's a first time for me and I admit have been learning a lot in hind-sight.What are the ramifications if no permit was pulled? For the owner?What about the contractor? I keep trying to cut this guy slack and be patient with things that don't seem right, but not having permits for a job when he should know that he needs them sounds like he's pulling a fast one one me. He's trying to slide by and same money. What about inspections? What's my best course of action at this time? Do I bring up the subject of permits or wait it out? If the kitchen is completed without permits which should have been issued, and the contractor is paid in full, what happens to me?
*memoos.. you have to take the bull by the horns and have an eye to ey... heart to heart discussion with him... not us..you have to re-establish trust.. or stop the whole thing now... it doesn't get better , it only gets worse...this is where you have to be careful... write down your goals... think about how to acheive them..then don't let the discussion get sidetracked into personality issues..you have a contract... it is up to you to see it is adhered to.. the two parties are each bringing something.. you , the money... his , the work..if he can't deliver... cut your losses now.. not after..
*Mike I agree with you. Business is relatively simple but can be clouded by the details. He is doing a certain set of tasks to an established specification, in turn you are paying him. If he is not completing those certain tasks or meeting those specifications then he is not fulfilling his obligation.However, he should have the chance to "fix" the items that do not meet those specifications. You should meet with him and have that heart to heart and list your concerns. If he is uncooperative from the get go with addressing them. I think it would be time to cut your losses. It's like throwing money at a beat up car, eventually it will reach a point when it is time to get a new one.SJ
*SJ-One of the problems in this case may be the "established specifications". I personally have never worked on a kitchen remodel where there were established specifications. I'm sure that some people work hard at creating these but I'm usually struggling to figure out what the people want. What do they know about specifications? Nothing. They trust me to do the job right and we try not to let them down. This guy may be doing the same and just not succeeding. It's happened to me before. As far as the permit goes, the contractor is probably not saving a dime by not getting one. He would just pass the cost on to the customer. He may feel that he is doing the customer a favor. It is unlikely that the inspector would have anything to say about the projects quality except for electrical work which would have to meet the NEC. The inspector would have no problem with 1/4" underlayment even if it is a low quality method. And he won't care how the drywall is hung. That's not his job.
*Schelling, The thing I think about with regards to the permit is it might indicate whether the guys IS a licensed contractor or just some guy with a hammer. In my area, you don't get to pull a permit unless you are licensed and around here you need to have taken the test, had others verified your experience, blah, blah ,blah, in order to be licensed. Sure, not everywhere is as strict as here but it does give some credibility to the client when they have someone who is licensed and therefore can obtain permits. Not a big deal I guess but some small means of checks and balances for both clients and contractors and of course the county gets some money out of it as well.Mike
*Mike- I generally agree with you in that licenses and permits do indicate a legitamacy of the contractor, though not in all cases. I'm just saying that they are no substitute for a relationship based on integrity and trust. That takes a lot of work on the part of the contractor and the homeowner.
*Schelling, Oh, I agree 100%. I think trusting the person you are working for and having them trust you in the business relationship is the key to having satisfied clients and being satisified yourself. I think they are basically the customers who call you to do a job, tell you what they want and trust you to do it the best way possible and if you can, save them some money from not wasting any or going overboard yet they will pay a little extra for your knowledge, quality and integrity. I can't help but wonder if the original poster was a price shopper and got what they paid for in the long run...a big headache?!Mike
*To quote a very wise Crusty old dood....Sometimes you don't get what you paid for, and you never get what you didn't pay for.
*Mike,Here in So Cal licenses can be decieving. Here any yahoo with about 500 bucks can go to one the "get your contractors license schools" pass or dont pay. I know a pretty shady guy i wouldnt let walk my dog much less work on my house get one. I was taking a masonary course at the Community college this guy whose brick wall looked like the leaning tower of pisa suddenly quit the class. i asked some of the guys who knew him and they told me he went to one of those schools got his license and now he's out working. i did run into him at a tool store and he was buying some tools for a job he had. i of course wished him well but thought"those poor people".
*Ron, I like the part about preventing him from dog walking. I guess washing and grooming is out of the question too huh? I know what you mean about the pass by paying schools. There are tons around here too. Some even claim a way to get around the criminal background report you are required to submit when getting your license. Definite "no dog walkers" there!Mike
*What tears me up is they give the trade such a bad rep that honest skilled craftsman have to work hard at beating the bad rep that those guys created.
*Ron, Amen!Mike
*You question the floor now. Why not then? The dywall is trivial,since you havent taped it .Easy to fix.I think you said something like that yourself. The locked door was a mistake of not telling his help . You said that also. The dywall has just been hung. That means all recepticles are pulled, breaking on going power. Sure not all lights work, but they should when the new plugs are installed.The electrician on the job needs to assure you.Call him ! The contractor may have no clue about electrical. I feel this has been part your problem for not........ communicating your self. But Im not there and thats good . We dont require a permit on remodeling here. New construction only.
*Now I have made a mistake. Permits are required also for additions or roof line changes.Storage buildings included. We now have permits for driveways and any slab that will hold a structure.
*A customer who cannot replace a broken door knob and never done remodeling before is taping and finishing drywall?
*You gotta start somewhere.
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I'm involved in a kitchen remodeling which requires new cabinets & coutertops, ceramic floor, wall preparation, installation of new window, removal of baseboard heating & installation of toe kick heater on separte zone. I have concerns involving the recommendations of the contractor that is doing the work and would very much appreciate guidance from both professionals in this field as well as home owners who have dealt with incompetent contractors.
The progress of the work to date is as follows:
All cabinets removed, baseboard heating replaced with toe kick, 1/4 inch plywood down on top of old vinyl floor & 1/4 inch plywood, over 1/2 inch floor boards and 1 inch tongue in groove floor boards. Framed & sheetrocked soffet, padded walls with sheetrock around installed window and where cabinets will be installed.
Questions:
1. should the old flooring and plywood been riped up? Will a new ceramic floor be too heavy? How can squeaks be eliminated? Is the new 1/4 inch plywood stable enough to accommodate the tile?
2. sheetrock around the window is even on one side but exceeds by 1/2 inch on the other side which was padded by a strip of wood which also exceeds the rough opening. Obviously the moldings will not be even on either side of window. Also the addition of sheetrock to the wall around the bathroom door is proud. On one side no sheetrock was added inorder to sink the molding. On the other side the sheetrock was applied over the jam which puts the moldings at 1 1/4 inch disparity. I met with the contractor for an hour & a half to discuss the installation of the sheetrock and how I wanted the problems addressed. He has not followed any of my instructions and has done a shotty job. What recommedations do you have to correct this?
3. Since some sheetrock was intalled where live wiring is, I now have lost electriciy to some over head lighting. No circuit beakers are off. Could there be some kind penatration to the wiring? Would this be a safty issue?
I'm at a point where I have lost all confidence in the abilities of the contractor and do not want to continue with him. He is insulting and condesending, he does not complete the work as agreed upon, he does not clean up after his work and he locked me out of the house even after I specifically told him to only lock the deadbolt. It cost $75 to have a locksmith come out & drill the lock. To say the least I am very unhappy.
How do I go about firing him? How do I evaluate the dollar value of the work that has been done since I do not have an itemized list of the costs for each aspect of the job? Are there legal avenues for me to follow at this time and who should I contact? Does the work have to be stopped and settled in court before I can seek a competent contractor to complete the work? Will another contractor be willing to get involved with the job at all or am I completely stuck?
I need help and would I appreciate any advice on this matter. Thank You.