OK , so I’m in HD looking for a chuck key for my Bosch corded hammer drill and the HD tool salesman comes up to me and offers the following story. He repaired tools for a paper mill for 50 years. There are 2900 HD stores in the US. HD goes to Mikita and Bosch and Milwalkee and every manifacturer and says we’ll pay you so much for such and such tool. So the manufacturer makes a special of tools for HD. The windings are copper mixed with aluminum. the gears are plastic. etc. A given brand name door not only has #2 pine instead of #1 pine but it costs more than the same (better quality) door at the lumber yard.
That was an eye opener, especially given the source. I THINK, I ASSUME, IT IS POSSIBLE that the same applies to Amazon. I say this because I just returned a 7 piece set of 18 V LIthium Ion tools (Makita) because they ( the drill and the saws all (as heavy as the latter was) was particularly lacking in power; both tools. and the impact driver was susciciously light. also, Amp Hours is a good thing to understand and consider…. given Makita makes 2 impact models, one of which is quite lighter but with 1/2 the amp hours.
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Watch out, you'll get labelled a conspiracy theorist.
But what you speak of has been suggested before.
many times"What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."
I don't believe any of the big-name manufacturers would sell an inferior tool with the exact same model number. However, as far as creating models exclusively for a particular retailer, that's very common and no secret. (Consumer Reports has discussed this in an article about toys.) I believe the Costco business model is pretty much based on this marketing strategy. It is very unusual to find a non-food item at Costco that can be bought anywhere else (however, in the case of Costco, the items are usually high quality, they are just packaged differently). Electronics are another area where it is very hard to price-shop because each retailer has a different set of model numbers. The entire mattress industry is built on this concept (every retailer sells a different model of essentially the same mattress), making it absolutely impossible to compare prices.
I have heard this kind of stuff before and there is probably some basis for some of the rumors.
Your source is definately mixing some fiction into the story. When Aluminum is mixed in with copper the resulting alloy is called an "Aluminum Bronze." This is not an alloy that would be used as copper winding in a tool. Aluminum bronzes are strong and corrosion resistant and are favored for naval architecture and aircraft parts...not tools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_bronze
As far as the Makita Li-Ion 18v stuff, I found mine as a display model clearance at HD and it has been a fantastic tool kit. Your suspiscions about the light little impact driver are normal...nobody can believe how well that tiny thing runs screws. After a year and a half of heavy use I have nothing but good to say about the Makita kit I have--and from HD, no less.
well, i heard it, i tried it, i sent it back.
the tool reviews on corlesss kits ( fine homebuilding )do rate Milwalkee as tops in power, etc.
of well.
conspiracy theorist
Actually, in the 18v Li-ion class, the Makita offers more torque, lighter weight, and has greater run times too:http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?articleID=501521§ionID=1490Milwaukee has more power only if you move up to 28v, but in the 18v class, only the Dewalt can claim more power than Makita. Dewalt is heavier though and I like the balance and feel of the Makita better.
Edited 11/18/2007 12:03 pm ET by basswood
Relative of mine operates a power equipment repair business. He said the DEERE and other "big name" tractors sold to HD are of a lesser quality than the ones sold directly to dealerships. I've heard the same
thing about the DEWALT power washers also.
I've heard this story (and many variations) for a lot of years and would love to know for sure.
There's no doubt that a large retailer can negotiate a better price than a Mom and Pop store. What manufacturer wouldn't prefer to sell in train load quantities than in onesy-twosys? It's all about economy of scale and that's pretty much chiseled in stone. - lol
On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that the "better" manufacturers would deliberately cut quality just to meet some big box store's price point.
Wouldn't this be easy to prove?
Is there anything illegal about it?
Is there anything illegal about it?
If its not true, I suppose it could be libel.
http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/ObjectID/4969B2E9-A1F7-45CD-8267D11574C46FDB/catID/8FA0132B-91C2-4773-828573F2D3D58DFA/104/199/215/ART/View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I agree about the salesman. He could technically be sued by HD.
But I was referring to the practice of selling an "inferior" product at HD while selling the same, better product elsewhere. Especially if the item numbers are the same. Is that a form of false advertising?
"The guy said ..." This reminds me of an encounter I had with a box-store employee.
THAT gent told me how he had been an electrician for years, his dad was a contractor, this was his trade, etc. The only problem was ... I knew him, and I was there when left the apprenticeship program half-way through, to work in the Post Office! His spiel finally got so thick I lost control, and bust up laughing right there! Since then, I've seen him at different box stores.
Look, the box stores don't pay squat. They tend to chew through their payroll like demented beavers at a woodpile. You're simply NOT going to find truly qualified folks at any of them.
Now, as for the claims made that large vendors get 'different' products than what are usually provided: absolutely true.
I can say this because there has been a fair amount of litigation on the subject. Often the difference is one of simple detail .... the vendor will get "model 2008x" while most places have "model 2008y." Often the two are EXACTLY the same, but have the value of allowing the vendor to claim 'lowest prices,' etc. (BTW, the retailers lost this one in court. Still, devilishly hard to enforce).
Other times, the entire package may be unique .... one retailer will be selling a set with a carry bag; the competitor across the street will sell a set with the same tools, but with a set of bits instead of the bag. Or, the tool assortment may be different.
Different quality of the tools themselves? Maybe. Or, simply different production runs. Different plants. Last years' model, as it were. Or, the manufacturers may wish to try out different things on a larger audience (Do folks prefer a level, or an LED light on the drill?)
Finally ... and here is the scary part ... a large brand name might actually farm out production to multiple sources - with each supplier making the final product in entirely different ways. Sears, in its' heyday, was notorious for this. (As a result, your own Craftsman tools will probably not even look absolutely identical to what is hanging at the store today).
Have you ever returned something to a box store? Gone are the days of 'no questions asked.' That box gets opened, and inspected. It might even be sent to another place for a closer inspection, before being returned to the shelves. Packaging may be replaced, or the set broken up, and distributed amongst several sets.
Why? Because some of your fellow customers have made 'hustling the box store' an art form. Packaged containing bricks, rather than tools, are not unheard of. Or, the tool 'bought last week' turns out to be five years old, and heavily used. Or good battery insides replaced with bad ones.
... or the "unused" can of paint returned, filled with water.
I guess one would have to take apart a model from a lumber yard or hardware store and compare it to the same model at HD. Well, .....I actually bought my first Makita Impact Driver (12 volt Ni Cad) at HD and it finally went along with the batteries and I sure was heavy compared to the little thing I just sent back to Amazon.
I will never buy another gun from a box store. Not because of this thread either.
If something happens to the gun after 30 days then it on you to send it to the manufacturer and be sure it gets fixed.
The manufacturers warranty might be 1 year or whatever it may be, but most boxes only give you 30 days after that then they are off the hook. I know this because my Bostitch N66 gave up the ghost 42 days after I bought it. Used on two jobs.
I buy strictly from my tool rep who stops by on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Something happens during the manufacturers warranty he picks it up and fixes it free. Aftetr their warranty he will still service them for a dirt cheap rate. Not even worth me trying to fix.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
I just bought a PC pancake compressor at Lowes. I've had bad luck with PC tools in general, but I've got another PC compressor that is a monster. It's been dropped off a roof. The cord and hoses stayed connected and it never quit running. Anyway, it was the best deal they had that day as well. For $20.00, I bought a 2 year, no questions asked replacement policy. If they don't have the same model in stock, I can grab anything off the shelf and full purchase price credited. Seemed like a great deal to me.http://grantlogan.net/
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. - J. Handey
That is an option that I haven't been offered before at the big box yet. It would be worth the $20, easily.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
My local HD has stickers all over the tool boxes with that offer.
New, must be another profit item for them.
On the other hand, pretty cheap ins.
Joe H
The closest HD to me is an hour away. So I have no idea what they have going on.
The box stores that I was referring to was Lowes and Menards. They might have it there now as well, it's been over a year since I bought a gun from either one.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Not all HD stores as careful about their returns. I recently went to a local HD looking for some trifle or another when I noticed some stuff on a flat cart all with green stickers and priced at about half off. Amongst the junk were two Paslode cordless nailers. The 16ga angled finish gun that I bought for about $175 and which looked brand new including the cardboard cover refused to shoot nails when I got home.I quickly discovered a jammed nail in the nose which fell out as soon as I flipped open the nose cover. It has worked perfectly since. As someone suggested not the best or brightest are recruited there.
Well, let's pick the ol' grey matter back a ways to threads on this topic gone by. Wish I had the links.
As a brief summary it became common knowledge after discussions that various plumbing fixtures had inferior by comparison interior components used in the manufacture of the bigbox models
as opposed to fixtures made available thru the normal plumbing supplyhouse models which were identical in outer view and model numbers.
Plastics instead of brass, that sort of thing.
Recalling the thread where someone was sitting next to the owner or representative of a large drywall/sheetrock manufacturer on a plane who had stated that the mixture of sheetrock going to the bigboxes were of a different composition than that of lumberyards. Surprised the snot otta me then after thinking about it made sense.
Personally not recalling any definite threads regarding namebrand tools doing the same but knowing the recent acquisitions of the corporations buying out corporations it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to find the same cost cutting techniques being used there also.
I mean after all,
business is war.
This has been suggested here before. If you were Bosch (or any other company) would you risk your reputation on making potentially half of your product of poor quality?
It sounds good in the store, but it just doesnt make sense to me.
Many of those companies aren't the same companies they were and would they install a less quality component to save money and thus make money?...you betcha the majority would and do.
I am not sure about the quality in HD tools compared to other suppliers but...
We have a international plumbing manufacturing headquaters in our town and according to the CEO, HD is their largest retailer, he speaks on how scrude HD is to do business with.
HD will tell them what products that they want to purchase from his company and what price the want to pay. And if you don't make that product, you better start making or find a manufacture for that product at the price HD wants to pay, even if it means have the product made in China.
All with the fear of losing HD as a retailer if they don't comply.
So with that in mind I can see product of lesser quality being sold at HD, just to meet HD's demands of what they will pay.
That is the Walmart business model. They have been doing that for years.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
In an e mail reply Kohler plumbing says all their chrome is the same thickness
Wal-Mart has the same attitude, build it to our price and specs or forget it. RUBBERMAID was almost put out of business a few years ago for not bowing to the Wal-Mart Empire.
The tools are the same if the sku's (supply house vs. HD/Lowes, etc) match. The #### that tool companies make different tools for different supply houses is garbage. How many of you have dewalt drills from either lowes or HD? If they really had plastic gearing, how long do you think it would last with what you do? The prices are less than supply houses because those large companies buy a huge number of drills, recip saws, whatever and they get volume pricing. When a supply only buys 400 drills for the year and HD can buy 15,000, they get them for a small percentage of cost. The inferior tools that the box stores sell are the workforce brands, ryobi, black and decker fire storm, etc.
Where do most tools get sold? places like amazon, HD and Lowes. Now why would a tool company want to make an inferior tool that is indistinguishable from the quality tool to the customer. The one sale is not worth the years of bad mouthing that one customer would spread. Also, that customer would certainly not buy any more tools from that company. What was suggested is just an urban legend.
Also, why would you listen to anything that someone at HD or Lowes said? The first rule of shopping at either of those places is to know what you need and where to find it since no one there can help you. If this guy knew what he was talking about, do you think he would be working at HD?
Tool companies may offer different model/grades of tools at locations that will buy them and I'd imagine that the big boxes will stick with models that will sell in their stores. In my area, small lumber yards have tool inventories that sit on their shelves collecting dust, nice tools, but priced at top dollar. Conversely, stores like HD operate on a low inventory/high turn over methodology and thus will sell only whatever will move the fastest. I cannot comment on manufacturing entirely, but outsourcing different components of a machine is commonplace in the global market, from electric drills to cars. Also, a large company like HD uses its buying power just like anyone else to stay competitive and competition will drive it to continuously shop for the best deal going, such pressure naturally runs downhill.So, it may not be a conspiracy that manufacturers may change their providers for gear motors or whatever, periodically, but more a natural progression of the business model at work.I'd be interested in seeing any information on case history regarding suits brought against big boxes, if nothing for the fact that it'd be an interesting read, especially any decisions.As for listening to HD personell. Let me tell you, I remember one guy going on and on and being very helpful about finding some plumbing pieces. As I'm not a plumber by any means I found his help kind, and so amused I said, "Sounds like you've been in the business.""Oh yeah, I was in the union a few years back." he replied."Oh yeah, retired?", he was older."No, I'm not retired from that, I'm retired from the post office, I quit the union after the second year into my apprenticeship."
I doubt that Milwaukee, Dewalt, et al, would risk hurting their reputations by selling sub par tools through discounters.
Paint is a different story. I know that Behr and Glidden paints available at HD are lower quality products made to sell at lower prices. "Consumer Reports" tested dozens of exterior house paints and found that weathering and fading performance of the Glidden and Behr products sold at HD performed relatively poorly compared to Glidden products sold in paint stores.
In my own experience painting factory primed doors with an airless rig on Habitat for Humanity jobsites, I have found that the Behr "Premium White" semi-gloss latex from HD took three coats to hide.
"Consumer Reports" tested dozens of exterior house paints and found that weathering and fading performance of the Glidden and Behr products sold at HD performed relatively poorly compared to Glidden products sold in paint stores.
Do you recall when that was published? I checked the last couple of paint reviews in Consumer Reports, and couldn't find anything like that, and they rated the Behr HD paint at the top of the list.
"Do you recall when that was published? I checked the last couple of paint reviews in Consumer Reports, and couldn't find anything like that..."I'm sorry, I don't recall exactly. I found it when we had our house painted last February so the article must have been from sometime in 2006.
BruceT
You guys need to get your heads out of the sawdust and look at the TV every now and then. PBS had a great show (Frontline?) that explained how this works, with Mal- Wart and Rubber-maid as the example. Wally basically put Rubber-maid out of business. This works with everything - from socks to lawn mowers. Job security for the children of the Third World, at $.85 a day.
Let's take a step beyond the fact of the marketing and look at what is driving it. Retailers say the customers demand lower prices, and they must respond to that or go out of business. We all line up to save $2.65 on some router or (disposable) lawn chair. We reward that behavior.
Ultimately we are causing the very situation we are describing here. This is the illusion of consumerism - that we are smart shoppers, and are in no way responsible for the loss of human rights in China and other countries, or responsible for the exploitation of child labor, or environmental degradation, or.....
The very definition of a non- sustainable economy.
Welcome to Globalization.
Dave S
38514.16
''two companies that immediately come to mind that are in the wake of walmart's retail "evil empire". 1) valsic pickles- they took valsic pickles marketed those gallon bottle of pickles for a coupla years valsic...''
Edited 11/19/2007 9:57 am ET by rez
You are right. Here is a link to an article about Walmart and Snapper mowers. No doubt similar happenings occur at HD or Lowes with tools.
http://money.aol.com/fastco/general/canvas3/_a/the-man-who-said-no-to-wal-mart/20060117113809990019
They sell the lower end tools like Ryobi, workforce, B&D firestorm, etc. But the Dewalt drill you buy at HD, Lowes and Amazon is the same one as you would get from a supply house or local retailer with the few exceptions of specific models made only for that company. But the XCR drills are the same quality as anywhere else. There are no plastic gears versus metal from a supply house or cheaper batteries, etc. All the companies have products that they only sell to the box stores, kohler, delta in plumbing and john deere for mowers, etc. But these companies do not trick the customers into thinking they are buying a particular Bosch saw but with cheaper guts that they could never know about. People need to wake up and stop being so naive.
One example of the result of this new world order in regards to tools and HD is that the bosch 1587 jigsaw - the old classic - is now made in China vs. the original (not long ago) models that were made in Switzerland.I have a few Larger Ridgid power tools before they turned Orange, but try to stay away from the smaller China made hand held power tools. The only ones I do have have been bought used or on clearance or are the original, higher-quality made in Germany versions that have since been replaced with China made ####.Shame if it is - the Ridgid tools have some remarkable design and features. Too bad Dewalt/Makita, Bosch and the others aren't putting as much into that aspect as Ridgid is.For instance, the new Ridgid palm nailer is treat to hold, and the small laminate trimmer is also very well designed with the best edge/roller guide system I've seen yet.Their planer with the angled knives seemed like a heckuva idea as well.Personally, I wouldn't be fooled by some BS lifetime #### from them unless/until they actually have REAL stocking manufacture service centers.JT
There is a lot of truth to what yoiu say about marketing, but rubbermaid is a longways fom being out of business!http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/index.jhtml;jsessionid=MTFSVLQRHJNXKCQHUBSCF3QKA4QHQJCK?_requestid=123943http://clearstation.etrade.com/cgi-bin/details?Symbol=NWL&csize=10&PositionId=3072161788&Event=peek&period=d
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, yes - they are not out of business, but they suffered badly from their dealings with Mal-Wart. As have many other companies. The Snapper Mower tale is exemplary. What I found interesting is that companies still pursued contracts with Mal-Wart, even though they knew it was like dealing with the devil.Then there are those little, dingy gray, windowless rooms the Mal-Wart buyers park the vendors in to worry them down during negotiations. The psychology is straight out of 1984 or some Marxist tract. The Evil Empire is alive and functioning. And all this time we thought it would be a political, sociological takeover of the mind (Communism?, Socialism?, Darwinism?, Islam?, Scientology?), but here they slipped in and took us over with an economic principle based upon some distorted need to shop. And we never even knew it. Dave S
"The psychology is straight out of 1984 or some Marxist tract. The Evil Empire is alive and functioning. And all this time we thought it would be a political, sociological takeover of the mind (Communism?, Socialism?, Darwinism?, Islam?, Scientology?), but here they slipped in and took us over with an economic principle based upon some distorted need to shop. And we never even knew it."Are you serious or are you testing the Christmas Eggnog? It's a company, if you or others don't like their practices, then don't shop there. Obviously people do not share your feelings since they are one of the largest companies in the world. Do not drive for at least 16 hours. It should clear your system by then.
Edited 11/21/2007 9:30 am ET by DDay
Don't much care for eggnog, so that isn't it. It just could be that I am serious. I really wish I wasn't.It is more than "a company". I can avoid the stores, but I can't avoid what they are doing to the place I live - locally or globally. This "company" (largest employer in US) is part of a very pervasive and unavoidable move toward making the US economy dependent upon working low-wage part-time jobs with no benefits and then buying all the ticky-tacky clap trap that is trucked into these stores, preferably on credit. Nowhere is this policy written, but it is understood that the middle class will be come increasingly socialized/dependent upon the state, which is dependent upon Mal-Wart and other mega corps for its daily bread. The transfer of wealth will flow to those that figure this out earlier than later, and the flow will go from working people thru the state to these corps. The state can trickle out "reforms" and "tax breaks" and "relief" occasionally to keep the masses waving the flag and standing when special music is played. As the saying goes, follow the money.But it all comes down to hopping in the v-8 powered Oldsmabuick to travel 12 miles to Bigboxco to look for left handed widgets at that advertised 20% off. The 12 yr old girls in Indonesia sent off by their families to work at the factory depend upon those widgets for their livelihood, so you are doing them a favor - right?The reluctant curmudgeon
yep, and keep yer ammo within easy reach.
wal mart should return to the sears days of the 70s where you had choices- good better best.
now its just cheap
well, that was quite a long thread.
Until one of us buys a Makita BTD 140 impact driver from the lumberyard and HD and tears them apart, we'll never know, will we.
At anyrate I did learn that Makita is going to make a cordless olive. Thanks
Cordless olive? I'm going to have to reread the thread. I hate it when the cord on my olive hangs out of my martini!------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
You too?
I already bought the Hilti cordless olive. Don't waste your money, the corded Hilti olive is a lot better.
American Airlines saved $40,000 in 1987 by eliminating one (1) olive from each salad served in first-class.
I suspect the "real" savings came from eliminating snacks in coach and giving them each one olive instead!!!
Now that was one expensive olive! Was it gold plated?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yep
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Three years ago I bought a washer and dryer at HD. I checked with Lowes to see what their price was and yes it was lower for the Admiral washing machine I wanted. I thought to myself YES I'll buy it on sale and then I'll even get another 10% off with my coupon.
So I went back to HD with my 10% coupon and asked them to match the price from Lowes.
They said they couldn't do that as the Model number was a little different. I was sure it was the same Washer but found out he was right, and the model number was in fact not the same.
Oh well, I went ahead and bought the Admiral washer and the Maytag dryer at home depot. I used my 10% coupon.
They've worked okay except for the washer. When I start the washer it goes through the first cycle of filling with water and then the control just sits there humming. After 5-6 minutes it moves forward and finally starts to run.
I feel I got screwed at HD and got stuck with an inferior washing machine and I won't buy anymore appliances from them.
Purchased a GE washer from HD a while back. 30 days into ownership, and
under warranty, it would fill with water, and not stop. Called GE, they suggested 3 repair shops. Called all 3, and got "we don't service anything from Home Depot, even under warranty". They did offer to repair at $75 - $100 per hour, plus parts. Got rid of the GE washer, went to a local appliance store, and got a MAYTAG, been fine ever since.I did complain to both GE and HD and got "it was under warranty, it should have been fixed at no charge"....
I called for a part for my bostitch framing nailer that I bought at HD and the rep instantly knew where I bought it based on the model number given. he then told me that the part I needed was not available for that gun. that was 4 years ago. It's been going on for a long time my friend.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I think ou might be correct in some respects. It's no surprise that a big retailer can have leverage over a manufacturer and can get them to produce what the seller wants them to produce. Walmart is infamous for this telling the manufacturer what to make, how to make it, where to make it and when to make it. This works well for proprietary products that are only sold by one retailer. But I'd be surprised if the Bosch 1617 EVS that I bought at Amazon is any different then the one at Rockler, HD or Lowes. It would create a nightmare scenario for their parts department and I think alot of people returning stuff after the holidays to various places without a receipt would cause a big musical chairs game in which supposedly inferior products are being resold at retailers that aren't supposed to be selling the cheap version of the product.
I agree with you pretty much, but there could be serial numbers specific to the retailer for that item. All the mfg would have to do is ask for the serial number when someone is ordering parts. Or, the replacement parts could be totally interchangeable with the second rate original part.
I buy tools from a little place that's popular with contractors. They service and sell.
Surely you have something equivalent in your town. . . ?