Another major crane collapse…..!!!!
Man, someone is asleep on the job
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Replies
One of the channels had a guy on, "20 year old crane, they don't even make anymore"
The news said that the city just inspected a day or 2 earlier and it was in too shape..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
the city just inspected a day or 2 earlier and it was in too shape
Well, it's not in too shape now.
Joe H
I think it's probably in foo shape, now.
Politics: the blind insulting the blind.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
there's a quotable quote, "foo shape"
as in foo BAR??.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
"The news said that the city just inspected a day or 2 earlier and it was in too shape."I think it's difficult to catch 100% of potential safety issues in any inspection. There is the economic unfeasibility of checking every minute detail. For instance e-raying every connector plate for stress fractures, etc. Like the Minneapolis bridge, something is bound to be missed. All they can do is check the major points for suspected failure and then hope for the best.
it does seem to feal like NYC is having a rather bad time with cranes though
Plus you can be sure there's plenty of tax money available so there are enough inspectors so their work load is reasonable.
Remember Mary Dyer, a Christian Martyr (Thank you, Puritans) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_DyerMay your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/crane-collapses-on-upper-east-side/index.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/05/30/nyregion/0530-COLLAPSE1_index.html
Reports that Dubai has 1/3 of the worlds cranes may be exaggerated, but it makes you wonder if what's left here are older less reliable models.
We had a crane colapse here at a power plant. They where updated some polution control equipment.The raised the boom and decided that it was too windy to work and while lowering the crane colapsed. No load.Killed the operator.No reports yet on the cause..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
it was not the operator that died, it was a boilermaker apprentice. his name was Terry Stimpson and he was 23 years old.
it was indeed high wind that had caused the crane to topple. it was set down earlier in anticipation of the storm, when they tried to raise it (i have to assume they had weather reports saying storm had passed in order to try to work again) as it was coming up the operator felt the wind gust. the operator then lowered the boom but the crawler crane tipped and killed terry.
he was from chillicothe.
There must have been a local storm then.Because it was not windy that day.And it makes sense that he was an apprentice. I was surprised at the age to be an operator..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
i had heard that it was a 35 mph gust up in the air, and it was not bad on the ground, but then it is Missouri weather were talking about, it can change real quick.
How long has New York been in Missouri ???Man, I have to try harder to keep up with changing geography !
Politics: the blind insulting the blind.
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
We got sick of the east coast so we moved!
i never said NY was in misery, i just happened to talk to a guy that knew the details of the crane accident at the power plant just outside st joe, Iatan i believe is how you spell it.
Iatan is right.But is far outside of St Joe. About 1/2 between St Joe and KC..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
i think they are using inexperienced people to do these jobs, the old equipment is fine if properly used.
i am betting that neither of the cranes that collapsed were being "jumped" by union ironworkers. contractors trying to save some money. i also bet that if they were jumped by union ironworkers they wouldn't have failed.
The turntable is similar to a lazy susan.The cab and boom are connected to the turntable with large diameter bolts. If one bolt fails there is more strain on the bolts on either side. Then another bolt may fail,and another etc. Eventually enough bolts fail,due to metal fatigue and the cab and boom come down.
Old machinery,cranes etc are prone to failure unless parts are replaced on a regular maintanance schedule.
I've seen crane collapses before, several thru the years. Only once where the turntable bolts sheared off. This was with a conventional crane ,not a tower crane. The crane was lifting an empty flatbed trailer out of the way when it went over backwards. No one hurt,boom and jib were destroyed when they bent over precast beams they hit.
The turntable bolts sheared off, if I recall there were about 2 1/2" in diameter maybe 6" long. The operator told me later that he had complained that the rig wasn't right from the beginning of the job. Noises that he heard were probably from one or more broken bolts rattling around.The rig was a rental ,operator from union hall.
I imagine something similar happened in NY yesterday.
mike
I know for a fact that both of those cranes inquestion were operated by union operators.
i was specifically referring to the crews working outside of the cranes to make the jumps happen. the operator is in the cab when he is operating, was it union ironworkers in manhattan doing the rigging and placing and securing the collars the crane is mounted to?
and as for corruption in the building trades in manhattan or anywhere else, yeah there may be some of that with union ironworkers, but i can guarantee you that if union ironworkers or their brothers are in danger, they will not tolerate it. i still bet the crews working outside of the crane to facilitate the jump were non union, not that union members are better than non union members, but they are more expensive, usually have better training, and are more likely to tell the contractor to shove it if the contractor is urging unsafe speedy practices.
I have worked both union and non union, i see pros and cons to both sides. some of the main pros with union is better training, safety conditions, and employees whose first concern is the union and not the boss when it comes to being scared for their jobs. it is much safer that way IMO.
you all remember the footage from the aftermath of 9/11? yeah there were firemen and policemen and specialty rescue crews looking for survivors, and union ironworkers attaching every choker and every picking point for all that rubble and debris and steel to be removed. very dangerous work, no accidents.
remember when the san francisco/oakland bay bridge collapsed during the loma prieta earthquake? that bridge was repaired in record time with no accidents by union ironworkers. those guys know their stuff when it comes to rigging, they are the only ones who should be allowed to do that type of thing in areas like manhattan where so many are at risk.
Let me dig around and find out if the trades were involved with the NY cranes. Regards!
In NYC, large projects are either all Union or there's 25 foot inflatable rat out in front. My father was an accountant for the developer of a well known skyscraper in Manhattan built in the late 70's, he told me it cost $3200 a floor to pass inspections. He told me you had to pay or a project could be delayed for years!
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I am hearing thru thr grapevine that this was a failure of the crane itself. When one of these tower cranes goes up there is supposed to be a tech rep from the company on site to give direction. From what I understand this doesn't always happen. From my point of view if you helped put 10 of these things together it's not enough. You need a trained person on site to give proper direction. Just my .02 worth.
jdubbs, please don't think I was pointing a finger at anyone. Aside from not standing under one, what I know about cranes wouldn't fill a gnat's bunghole.I hear bits and pieces on the local news about the crane accidents. Honestly, unless I catch the story from the beginning, it's tough to tell which one they're talking about.Last week in Bayonne, NJ two painters died while painting a storage tank when a bolt failed on their scaffold... http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/05/2_painteers_killed_in_bayonne.htmlI constantly remind my guys there's not a building in NY that's worth a drop of their blood. Sadly, some of the big outfits might feel differently.Gravity is one of the weakest forces in nature, but it never relents.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Could you describe in lay-mans terms what exactly is Jumping a crane. ?I'm not sure but were both these cranes tower cranes??.
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Yes both of the NYC cranes were tower cranes. Jumping the crane adds another tower section so the crane can go higher.
I can see why that would need to be done 100% right....not 99% nor 99.9% not if it's my #### in or under it....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
http://www.newsmeat.com/news/meat.php?articleId=26548001&channelId=2951&buyerId=newsmeatcom&buid=3281
Did I previously mention corrupt inspectors in NYC? Normally the system would protect this guy but, after two crane collapses in such a short time, the heat is on.
couldn't get it to open.
Did it say the crane inspector took a bribe?
If it did, I thing they ought to close down the construction sites, city wide and do a proper inspection!
Finaly opened for me, that man should be in jail!
I agree. But corruption in NYC is a long standing, accepted part of life.
I remember the first day I arrived in the city, I stopped at a typical deli for a container of coffee. Walking in, I saw the deli man standing behind the counter with a look of resignation on his face while a big cop, in uniform, made himself a large sandwich a few feet away.
My presence didn't bother the cop at all. He kept smiling and talking to the deli guy as he finished up, put the sandwich on a plate, then walked into the small dining area to eat.
It was the same as if a neighborhood gang member had decided to use his power of persuasion to get a free meal.
The deli guy said nothing to the cop, just took care of me quietly, then went over to the sandwich board to clean up after the cop. He was clearly displeased.
I was stunned by the brazen theft, though it would never have been called that.
It was quite an introduction to life in NYC.
Edited 6/8/2008 5:26 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
that man should be in jail!
Along with all the people that bribed him! Doubt it will happen though.
Doug
Climbing up into a crane is a bit like hang gliding: you instinctively feel unsafe and the only reason you persist is that you have been re-assured that it has been checked by minds greater than your own and won't collapse. With all of them falling from the sky like some sci-fi movie, you couldn't persuade me to go up in one for any money.
FWIW, I watched a segment about crane accidents on local TV news last night, here in Los Angeles. They had the extra three hours to go out and interview experienced people, ask good questions and have a worthwhile discussion.
One man they spoke with is a crane operator with thity-some years, mainly on tower cranes. He said he began working in NYC, then moved here after ten years.
He didn't express an opinion on yesterday's events but said that he believed that the safety inspections in California were more disciplined and reliable than what he'd seen in NY.
Having worked in NYC, seeing corruption in the building department and hearing many similar stories from reliable sources, I'm surprised that there aren't more crane accidents and other related problems there.
Typical corrupt practices are "no-show" inspectors jobs. A man gets hired as a city BI but only comes to work on pay day. He's seldom allowed to walk on a job site. Then it's only for familiarization in case he's ever called to testify about anything.
Good friend's BIL had a job like that, back in the 80's, a demolition inspector in fact.
Edited 5/31/2008 2:18 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
thats all well and good that the crane should be properly inspected, but i thouhgt that the inspectors job was to say yeah its ok, or no, fix it.
and if its "no, fix it" it is not the inspectors job to tell the workers how to perform their jobs.
it is the responsibility of the contractors to spend the money to hire competent people, train the less skilled to become competent, provide the proper hardware tools and equipment, and have the proper procedures in place.
it is just the inspectors job to point out when the contractor has not done those things and put a stop to the job.
clearly recent events illustrate the lack of competence in jumping cranes in manhattan. i hate to point the finger at the inspector. that is the last line of defense.
i hate to point the finger at the inspector. that is the last line of defense.
If the inspector isn't there to blow the whistle, who's going to do it?
Union guys in NY know that if they open their mouths about short cuts and other questionable practices, they risk kissing their job and possibly their career goodbye.
Union shop stewards are often given "days off" with pay on days when their presence on the job will cost the contractor extra money due to union rules which shop stewards are supposed to enforce. I've seen this happen many times and it's often about safety issues.
The shoring of excavations is a prime example. Cave-ins cost many lives every year because proper shoring wasn't installed. The contractors hate to do it because it takes more time to install and remove shoring than it does to lay the pipe or whatever the job was in the first place.
Some contractors bid jobs low to get the work, then try to make their profit by cutting corners on safety. They're able to cut corners when the BIs and the shop stewards are willing to take bribes.
In NYC, corruption used to be very pervasive. I don't know how that stands now. It seems that after the old crime families were broken up, some of the old ways of doing business went with them. I hope that's true.
When operating equipment your senses can tell a change in the normal sound and the feel of response level, any change is evident.
Enough said.
When operating equipment your senses can tell a change in the normal sound and the feel of response level, any change is evident.
While I agree with that statement, at least when the operator is experienced and attentive, it doesn't always pertain.
When operating a crane, it's stability is dependent on numerous things that have little to do with the mechanical aspects which produce sound and feel.
For example, tower cranes have computers which automatically adjust the counter-weight. If the computer has a hiccup, the crane can easily get overstressed, causing weak points to fail.
yes,
opinion:
>Alluding to a poor weld in the eyes of the media, might put the inspector at risk.
some one has to pass over/thru every inch to get in the control tower, no?<
I agree it's speculation at this time.
fact:
>The operator or driver of any equipment is responsible for making a visual safety check of it's components before the start of the shift/trip.<
al
Skimping safety is commonplace with every jobsite I have been on.
Everyone talks about safety, but as soon as schedules start being hampered, eyes look the other way. GC's pushing schedules for early completion bonuses make the problem worse.
Workers that bring up safety issues are removed from the area in question (reassigned elsewhere) or removed from the site.
I have experienced GC's that enforce safety rules on mechanical subs, but not their own in house masons or carpenters. Bring it up and watch out... good way to get thrown off a job. Been there.
I have seen many things pass inspection that shouldn't have.
Safety issues also happen within an employer. They have videos to watch and papers to sign, but few of the rules are actually enforced because of the time it adds to complete the task. If you get hurt, and were in violation of the safety program, now the company has ammo to fight any claims. Sure seems like the rules are in place to satisfy insurance company requirements and to fight comp claims.
I hate to think about how dangerous it was to work in the construction field before OSHA and unions. It is bad enough now, especially on those so-called fast track jobs.
In union organizations where the members can or must seek their own work, those in control of the hiring (foremen or employers) know about so-called troublemakers. Foremen on the take (bonus program) will not hire you.
Yes, following safety or union rules can cost you a career in addition to being tossed off a jobsite.
Not a good system.
Are you going to deny Tony Soprano a living? ;0)