so, a client/friend i’m building cabinets for had the countertop installed today. the counter is “ice stone”(http://www.icestone.biz/new/) and cost something in the $3500 range. the thing is, while installing the installers broke the counter in 4 places at the sink. two are visible and two are not. it was epoxied and put into place. the counter is also shy of the cabinet edges more than i think is acceptable but not “really bad”. normally i would demand that the counter be replaced but my friend is eco-consious and would rather have the cost knocked down. i believe half has been paid as a deposit and the rest is being held pending talking to the company. what do yous think is reasonable to ask/demand?
-nickt.-
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If they cant make the repairs invisible or close to it I would settle for a discount of around a thousand bucks. The top guy will probably come out better than making a new top and as long as its the customers idea to save a few bucks rather than get a new top I would go along with it.
I would insist on replacement. Sooner or later, water will get into the cracks and may damage the cabinetry. And, unless the countertop is pretty dark, dirt will always show as a dark line at the crack.
Maybe they could fill the cracks with epoxy so they don't collect dirt and let water pass.SamT
the cracks were epoxied as soon as the breaks happened.
Yeah, that's SOP. That's why the installers carry it with them. Stone breaks easy.
The epoxy should be color matched and danged hard to see.
If easy to see, plus the little short, get the discount.
If obvious to a casual visitor, or fails the "Bartender" test, replace.SamT
the two visible breaks are right in front of the sink and therefore will be seen. one of them would probably fail the bartender test. i recommended replacing it with some advice on how to go about the discount. i haven't heard back from her yet on the outcome. thankfully it's just a side project for me and i can not worry about it too much...just offer friendly advice.
-nickt.-
What's the 'bartender test'?_______________________________________________________________
this post is a no speedo zone
Slide a beer or someones face down the counter. If it skips, tips or leaves a mark-something not kosher.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
As it turns out, I have done the 'bartenders test' many times myself with my face, just didn't know I was performing a test.
_______________________________________________________________
this post is a no speedo zone
If that goofy wailing goes off on the jukebox-It signals that "the following is a test".A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I see. Well then, I discover that I have a lot of experience in this area.
Sometimes I tested the bar, sometimes the floor.
Willing to travel._______________________________________________________________
this post is a no speedo zone
what do yous think is reasonable
I think the client is being unreasonable by not having the broken counter replaced. If he bought a new car and it was delivered witha broken window, would he accept it with tape holding the pieces in place?
Anyway, if he is going to accept the broken counter, then let him decide what a reasonable compensation is.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
HO should demand a new top AND a discount for having to wait on it. I'm sure its holding someone else up.....a plumber....the backsplash...etc.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
This is a perfect example of why you, HO or contractor, should never pay more than half before the project is finished. You need to hold back enough to maintain their interest. Don't be an a**hole about it, but protect yourself.
yeah, i agree. fortunately, she paid $1600 up front and is holding the balance until it's resolved
-nickt.-
that seems quite sensible
HO should demand a new top AND a discount for having to wait on it. I'm sure its holding someone else up.....a plumber....the backsplash...etc.
Sorry but that's just wrong. Making a new top means the mfg is out the total cost.
Yea they screwed up... Did they mean to break the top in 4 places? I doubt it, If you pulled one like that on me I'd credit you back every penny you paid when you have it uninstalled by the next supplier.
Hope you never get hurt on the job and miss work... the discounts you'll be handing out will take you broke.
not the whole cost exactly since they should still have the template. but you have a point.
-nickt.-
No mater how you cut it... if they replace the top, they made 2 and are paid for 1. They are losing money already.... to ask for a discount is like asking for a reward for their misfortune.
Very poor taste, in my book... and a business ethic, that if used on me and believe me it has been tried... will leave you looking for a seat when the music stops every time.
Edited 9/21/2006 9:15 pm ET by sledgehammer
You're assuming there wasn't any profit on the first counter? There's been an occassion or two where I've had to make something twice and pretty much broke even.
Red
Judging from the number of times I've seen counter tops go back or have to be replaced there must be quite a bit of profit in the first one!
Doug
the HO settled with them for a discount of $1200. replacing it was not part of their settlement but i must say i've replaced things on my end when they were screwed up and it's just part of doing business and being accountable. my clients expect what i do to look new on install. if it fails due to something i have no part in that's a different story but i don't break something and not replace or fix it so you can't tell the difference.
"if they replace the top, they made 2 and are paid for 1. They are losing money already."Depends entirely on their margins.
Sorry dude.
If I'm contracting a job, and you screw up, its costing me money.
I'm not paying for your screw up.
Beside that....I wouldn't be doing business with a company (or individual) that tried to make up for damaged goods with a discount.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Beside that....I wouldn't be doing business with a company (or individual) that tried to make up for damaged goods with a discount.
Exactly.... if something is damaged, and can not reasonably and fully be repaired, it get's replaced. That said, we have repaired minor surface scratches but thy were not noticeable upon repair.
The H/O will soon forget the discount but live with the c-top forever and what do you think they are going to tell their friends..."well yeah, ABC remodeling put it in, and sure it's f'd up, but hey we got a discount!" Wonder how that's going to go over?
I disagree the h/o should get a discount because of the event though. If it was an honest mistake, then sht happens and life goes on.
We had one large piece of c-top come in damaged twice...Roughly 4x8 sheet of Silestone, first time it was blown out around the seam, second top didn't match from a different dye lot, the third time was the charm.
That cost the supplier 3 attempts at the same piece and it cost our company enough to double job cost b/c of all the time wasted trips etc.. We left the "bad" tops in place but not secured (700 lb's of Quartz ain't moving much on it's own) between attempts. I was surprised how well the customer took it but if she had asked I wouldn't have offered her a discount and made our loss more then it was.
I don't mean to come off as a hard azz....I'm only suggesting, that if the delay is costing anyone money, than it should be the responsibilty of the c-top manufacturer to bear those costs. (or at least a portion)
Quite often on a kitchen install, the countertop is one of the items that holds up the finalizing of several trades...plumber, electrician, tile guy, etc.
If the time it takes to replace the damaged top doesn't screw up any schedules and incur more costs, than no...a discount isn't necessary.
Obviously acting as the GC puts one in the position of making more money if things go better than expected.....just as he/she will lose money if things don't run as smoothly as planned.
I'm only suggesting that the GC attempt to minimize those damages incurred.
Backcharges are a part of building. If a sub screws up, and it affects the project, he should expect to be backcharged.
Quick example....I'm the GC....C-top installer cuts in sink....plumber arrives as scheduled to install sink....sink doesn't fit. As the GC, I am expecting to have to pay the plumber for a second trip. C-top installer should expect to be backcharged as it was his screw up. If he breaks the top when attempting to recut....he still owes me a new top and the monies for the extra plumbing costs.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I read your comments as giving a discount to the H/O for the inconvenienes, not a back-charge to a sub.
In theory I agree with you that back-charging would be appropriate, in practice we hardly ever do it with our subs. In this example, the c-top with the plumber, our plumber wouldn't charge us for the second trip and the tile company wouldn't charge us extra for coming back to finish the splash etc.
We have a great working relationship with almost all of our sub's. Occasional will screw up and they'll cover our butts, and occasionally they screw up we'll cover theirs. This isn't my company, if it were I'd like to developed the same type of relationships though.
Two examples:
Yesterday I had a drywall crack appear in a ceiling we did and the drywaller came back and fixed, I'd love to have the money we have to pay our staff painters to go back and fix it but I won't, and I'm sure on another job just last week he'd love to have the extra money it cost him to come back to patch and re-tape and fill a patch we had to make when I realized we were missing blocking after the sheetrock was installed and 1st coated.
On a recent bathroom remodel the rough plumbing was all finished, one of carpenters stepped in the hole for a drain to a whirlpool while trying to set the ONYX tub deck, busted the PVC right a tricky junction of several connections, plumber didn't charge us to come back and fix it, two weeks ago one of his plumbers forgot to put the reverse osmosis drain tube back into the washer box where it was originally setting, My boss and I, along with two different plumbers from the same company spent the better part of 2 days looking for this "leak" In both case's nobody charged anyone.
So I guess what I'm saying in a long-winded sort of way, is that as long as it's not all to regular of an event I'd rather work with people I can have that sort of relationship with where you can take care of each other when the poop hits the fan.
If was an all to common event then that's a different story and I'd probably be looking for different subs or they's stop working for us ;)
I agree completely. The subs I work with cover one another most of the time as well.
Thats part of the reason I work with them to begin with.
I only suggested that the homeowner ask for a discount (a) because the installer offered it to begin with. (I wouldn't accept the damaged top.....but as long as he's offering a discount.) (b) the HO is acting as GC (if I understood correctly) and doesn't likely have the working relationship with the subs that you and I enjoy and benefit from.
When working with subs for the first time....or a one time deal...the GC (be he homeowner or hired) should expect to be backcharged for return trips. And subs who cause those delays, should expect to be back charged.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Sounds reasonable.
On the other hand I think it gives H/O's that believe that being there own GC is some walk in the park and any idiot can do it a good sense of reality ;)
Not saying that's the case in this situation.
I have no problem with keeping the top and getting a discount. But you originally stated you would want a new top and a discount. That's wrong.
If your plumber charges you because he showed up on a job and the sink cutout is wrong... If you're the GC it's ultimately your fault. Being a good GC is making sure everyone is doing exactly what they are supposed to be and solving problems. Never met a GC that spent his time trying to figure out why it isn't his fault of much use.
And I've never had much use for a "tradesman" who tries to make good on defective workmanship playing "Lets Make A Deal".
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
On that we agree. I want what I paid for....
If someone screws up... take care of it and we move on.
If I were in the "Taking advantage of someone elses misfortune". I'd have been a lawyer.
I would have them replace it. They can use the sections for other jobs.
Eco-conscious? It's stone, and there's probably a lot more than meets the demand. It won't be thrown away, if that's his concern. Any fabricator with half a brain knows that he can use it and all he needs is one bathroom vanity to recoup his cost, even if he eats it on your friend's job.
the stone is actually recycled grass
You meant glass, right? When I first replied, I read yours and it said grass, so I checked the site. OK, now I can see why she wanted to use it. Plus, it looks good."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 9/19/2006 10:23 pm by highfigh
yes, definitely meant glass. it's some of the cabinet parts that are "recycled grass"( biofiber - http://www.environbiocomposites.com/products.php )
-nickt.-
recycled grass
I hope you mean recycled glass
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
she asked for $1200 off, got it and imediately wished she had demanded more. oh well.
From my view, its hard to say, depends on the guarantee the installers and manufacturers/cutters give for bad product or poor installation.
I'd definately work with your client/friend there and push the installers to replace the countertop, since the failure seems to arise from their installation, let them, if need be, work with their suppliers for replacement as well.
But I wouldn't let them off the hook.
Just read your account (dated 9/18/06)of a customer who had Ice Stone installed a year ago. I am thinking of installing it in a kitchen where it is likely to be "put to the test". Can you tell me how the product holds up over time?
well, other than the installation problems discussed in this thread the product has been pretty good. it marks up with liquid around cup edges and such but the marks clean up. everyone seems happy with it. any specific questions about it?
-nickt.-
No specific questions, other than "how it tested over time". In my home a kitchen counter top will not be treated kindly so I need something that can stand up to abuse. I've read that it must be sealed on an annual bases. Is that true?
It reminds me of terrazzo. I've always liked terrazzo floors. Especially when they put those metal strips in there. does this look familiar? http://www.ntma.com/03_terrazzo_formulations.php
Edited 10/3/2007 12:47 am ET by popawheelie
from the description on the web site, that's exactly what it is...terrazzo.I wonder how difficult this would be to pour in place? You'd have to grind it on site which would probably be messy, I suppose...
Why the heck would any contractor expect the ho to accept damaged goods?
Be proactive here. Don't allow the ho to have to make the decision. It is the contractors duty to have the tops replaced. Would you want damaged tops in your house? especially when they cost $3200.
We are not talking about a scratch on a cabinet face. The installers created a major flaw in the tops and the contractor should take on the responsibility of having it replaced.
Besides, this stuff is recycled material anyway; can't the damaged tops be taken back to the factory and recycled again?
sully
home owner was acting as her own contractor.
I assume that the installers were certified by the manufacturer to install the tops.
The installers should eat the cost of the broken tops and replace them.
That is the only solution that I would accept.
sully