I did work for someone over a month ago. It was contract work for $4K. While on the job the HO gave us add on work which I billed time and materials. The add on bill came to $3765 of which $513 was materials.
We did the contract work in full except for the window/door trim. The HO paid us the $4000 in full just before we were to start doing the trim. Along the way I did a few goofs, minor, and fixed them. I delivered a very nice job to the HO. The HO had another contractor come in that does fine finish work to do built in cabinetry, bookcases, etc. This contractor notified the HO that there was some inconsistencies in our framing work we did, such as a slight bow in the wall and one wall was out of plumb (it had to be, though, I’ll explain). The contractor told the HO they needed to do some scribing and as such it’ll cost them a little more due to the extra work they’ll need to do to make the job right. This contractor did the job accordingly. However, the HO has used this to come back on me and tell me I did shoddy work. This led the HO to do a walkthru with the other contractor to find defects in my work that they never saw or noticed to begin with. We’re talking minor imperfections generally accepted when doing remodeling. In the case of the out of plumb wall the orig wall was masonry block with stone veneer. We were to fur the wall out and install DW over the stonework as the HO was wanting DW’d walls, not veneer walls anymore, part of the “new look” they were creating in their whole house. The masonry/veneer wall was grossly out of square, a large 13 foot archway went thru this wall, the wall was about 18 feet long. When the wall was built the sides of the archway were not in line with each other, no idea why. Further, the bottoms of the wall WERE in line with each other along the archway bottoms, but the one side of the archway the wall was out of plumb, it was tilting away from the house by about 2″ out of plumb over 8 feet. . it made it very difficult to plumb the wall when you considered the HO was going to wrap the archway with cherry. We wanted the cherry trim to look even around the archway. If we had plumbed and squared the wall it’d have resulted in one side of the archway being wider than the other and be noticable. As such we did a series of compromises that in the end resulted in a beautifully done job where you can’t possibly tell the wall is not square and the trim is perfectly even on both sides.
Well none of this matters. The other contractor pointed this out to the HO and he’s hammering me on it, says he wants his wall plumb and square. The other contractor went ahead and installed the cherry trim aroiund out “imperfect” wall. The other contractor claims he could have done it. Yeah right. The wall with veneer on it was almost 2 inches out of plumb before we started. Now it is about 3/4″ to 1″ over 8 feet. Granted it’s not perfect, but we did what we had to do, and you can’t see it unless you put a level on it.
So the HO has the contractor find other deficiencies in our work. For example, arouind a door jamb they found that the one jamb side was 1/8″ narrower than the other side. He claims he can see it plain as day. Never mind he never saw it until lthe other contractor pointed it out. Told me I should have furred it out when we installed the DW beside the door jamb. I told him the door was not installed by us, it is installed cockeyed and I proved it. I also said when we’d install the trim he’d never even see it. Didn’t matter, said we should have fixed it. Same with the windows. We didn’t install them, rather we dealt with what was there, we didn’t say anything to the HO about it because we deal with this all the time, no wall is perfect, no framing is perfect, sometimes existing construction has flaws, we deal with it. If I went to the HO every time I found an imperfection I’d never get any work done.
Bottom line: HO said I did bad work, so he took from us the job of doing the trim work which is what we were supposed to do, and already paid us to do, as the last part of the contract. It says in the contract we will do the trim, he signed it. He took it away from us. Said he’s giving the work to the other contractor. Said that for all the bad work we do he’s not letting us touch the trim part of the job for fear we’d screw that up as well. The other contractor took measurements, found one window the jamb width is 9.5″ and on another window it is 9″. Again, we didn’t touch the windows, we framed around them to give him a straight, square wall as he asked for. The other contractor said the job will cost about $1200 to trim them out. Our cost was $550 in our proposal. Other contractor said it’ll cost more also to trim the door due to it being 1/8″ off. The list goes on. Bottom line, HO says with all the extra money he’s having to pay the other contractor to fix my goof ups he’s decided he’s not paying me for the add on work we did which he said was wonderfully done. His only complaints are for the work he already paid us in full for. So we suck at what we do for contract work but do well for the add on work??? I did not have him sign change orders or addendums for the add on work.
He paid us $513 for materials but says we wont’ see another penny of the remaining $3200. He wanted reimbursed for the trim cost we had in our contract. I agreed to reimburse $550 we planned for that. He says it’s not enough when the other guy says it’l be $1200 (and we were using Pine, they’re using Oak). I also gave him 3hrs of free electrical work as a move to resolving the issue. Doesn’t fly, he says I will not be paid a penny of the other money. The other money is add on work, he said was done perfect. I feel the $550 credit is enough and that I didn’t have to give that to him because I never breached the contract, he did. He said if I’d come in and fix the out of plumb wall he’ll pay me. I said I can’t, A) because he already installed the wraparound cherry trim resulting in increased time to me and B) because it’ll be a major job to undo what we did. I already lost my shirt on this job because we ran into unforseen challenges that slowed us down. It wasn’t straightforward, so I’m not willing to loose any more money to rip down a wall again and plumb/square it when it’ll look ugly, make me look like I did crappy work when his jambs are wedge shaped, and the like. I don’t have time to give away free work like that just to get paid.
I told the HO if he wanted the wall fixed he should’ve came to me before the other contractor installed the trim when the other contractor pointed it out. As such the HO never gave me a chance to explain or even let me fix it even if I could. He just up an decided I suck at what I do based on some other contractors opinion of my work. The reality is he nit-picked all my work to pieces. I explained the difference between remodeling and new construction. He considers what we did to be new construction and expected a mercedes when the most anyone could do was deliver a Chevy with the existing conditions. I gave him a price to do what we did, not tear down bad walls and rebuild them. He also complained about seeing some roller marks in the paint job (his house is flooded with light from all 4 sides) and he complained about a DW corner bead not being straight (it is, but I showed him the reason it looks not straight is because the entertainment center that sits in front of the corner bead has a bow in its side, it makes the corner look bowed a little, it’s not my corner that is bowed, but that’s not good enough for him, he says I should’ve made the corner bow along with the side of the Entertainment center to make it look like it’s straight, geesh, I cant win).
Can I sue? Will I win? Did I screw up? ?Am I out the money?
Edited 4/12/2007 9:02 am ET by WillieWonka
Replies
So the homeowner wants to withhold $3,200 for a job another contractor will charge him $1,200 for? Is that $1,200 over and above the other guy's ordinary cost to do the work? If so, it looks like the HO owes you $2k. Not something I would walk away from easily.
I'm sure this isn't the first time one contractor bashed the previous contractor's work.
I would sit down with the homeowner and walk through each of his concerns. Do it in a very professional manner, and do not get defensive. In remodeling, things are rarely perfect. Also, in any constuction, mistakes will happen. Express to the homeowner these facts, and let them know that part of this equation is that he has to give you the opportunity to make things right, or at least satisfactory to him (which it sounds like it was, since he paid you for that work.)
I would try to come off as the more professional contractor, and let him know that bashing the previous guy's work is one way some contractors get to gouge the homeowner (but at the previous contractor's expense.) Let him know that, yeah, once the work is done and the imperfections are there, it's easy for anyone to come in and say, "I could have done it better."
Then, if the homeowner doesn't want to work out an equitable solution for both of you, then meet with a lawyer (it's worth the few hundred an hour for what you may learn) or take him to small claims court. Get the point through to the customer that you have a signed contract for work to be done. You did the work, which he thought was satisfactory, then is trying to pull out based on the comments of a third party, who may not be impartial. He cannot just take you off the job, just like you cannot just walk away from a job. It's called breach of contract.
Even if you get half of the difference, it's still $1,000 you don't have now. If you think you performed, then stick to your guns.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
I already pretty much did all you said to do. I got a little defensive but not overly, if only expressing frustration that I"m talking to a wall. None of what did that you suggest did anything to resolve the situation. He just said he ain't paying.
The $1200 was to do the trim work only that he took away from us. he said the other contractor is going to charge him even more to do the additional trimwork they were hired to do (in additoin to what we were going to do) because they needed to spend a little extra time doing scribing and such.
My contention there is no perfect wall and scribing is an essential skill part of any trimwork job and the other contractor is attempting to get more money out of the HO by doing the job they're supposed to do for the price they quote. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
once you've lost the confidence of the HO there's no getting it back. I think the lack of communication about pre-existing conditions did you in. the next guy to point out the irregularitiess took away your job
we all own levels and plum bobs. whether or not we use them is another story. as a general rule just make your own work level, plumb and square unless you get the OK from the guy paying the bill. then the only change order would have been to plumb the other side of the wall
my take on this is the HO hired you to cover up and straighten out unsightly walls and you covered them but did'nt straighten them. If you made the walls plumb they would not look as good (in your opinion) but he would have no argument.
also you admitted there were no written change orders. your bad again.
dont waste your time and money on attorney fees and court costs. lick your wounds and move on.
I have to agree. Been there, done that. You WILL spend more time trying to prove your point and collecting than what it's worth. I know it's a hard hit...$3200. is a large chunk of change, then again so is $50! But trying to argue right and wrong with someone that's already made up their mind will wear you down. The D___head should have known better than to open his mouth...he knew nothing about your conversations leading to the contract with the HO . Lesson learned...think about the unknowns and make sure the prospective client is aware of possible extras, cover your #### and improve the wording in your contract. I know it doesn't sound fair but it is what it is and if you've passed the point of compromise with a customer and they want to re-negotiate the contract after the work is done, based on the dollars...walk away. Sorry, wish i had better advise for ya.
I believe you prob meant for this post to be sent to me, not Maverick. No prob. I know your points of course are right and they're taken. I guess this is called the evolution of learning. I'd really like to see a good contract others use sothat I don't have to pay a ton to get an atty to write one. But...I may have to.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
See a lawyer. he breached the contract and didn't give you the opportunity to correct the errors. Then arrange to meet the other contractor behind the 7-11 one night and explain to him what a jerk he is.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Hey, that gave me the biggest laugh of the day so far.....behind the 7-11, etc.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Also, put everything in writing. Document phone calls and discussions, dates, times, people. Write up a detailed description of the work done and other steps in the project (like when the contract was signed, when payment was received, milestones, etc.)
Unfortunately, this relationship has gone from a team (you and HO) to an adversarial relationship (you vs. HO).
Keep up on this and don't let too much time pass. Check out your rights to file a lien, and if you have to, do it. But time to file a lien is limited in most States.
Good luck.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
"Can I sue? Will I win? Did I screw up? ?Am I out the money?"
Sure you can sue? I can sue you for posting just a long winded message? But I would not get far.
About your case I don't know. Did you have signed change orders for the exactras? But you did not say that he was question that they where not included.
Does your contract have a Right to Cure or does the state laws have a right to cure provission?
As I see it the real mistake that you made, from what you wrote, is that you did not keep him informed of the compromises that you had to make and why. Some of it is nitpicking such as the 1/8". But thinks like the archway you should have explained where it was out and the pros and cons of different "corrections".
Sounds to me like time to file a lien and small court claim. Perfect for Judge Judy.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"Can I sue? Will I win? Did I screw up? ?Am I out the money?"
Yes, Maybe, Probably, Probably not all of it.
Sounds like mistakes were made, and heels are already dug in here.
First and foremost, talk to your attorney and file a mechanics lien if you can't come to some reasonable compromise - you have 90 days after completion. It is technically illegal to withhold payment on a valid contract once work is done. He can sue you for the cost to fix the alleged errors if you refuse to make it right to his satisfaction, but errors in workmanship are judged by the courts based on function and generally held standards, not perfection.
Second, tell him you really don't want to go to court over this and allow him to pay you whatever he wishes on the second set of work so that you have consideration solidifying your claim of a valid contract on this work - oral or written. Only agree that any such payment is partial unless you want to call it your final compromise.
Third, be aware a mechanics lien is not a law suit. The HO can wait you out and the lien will expire - usually in 2 years. He can also send you a demand letter which gives you 30 days to file suit or else the lien goes away.
Is this HO likely to sell or refinance any time soon? If so, the lien will block the transaction for most lenders/purchasers unless the HO will set aside the amount of your claim.
Years ago as a HO, I had a lien filed against me when a roofer did a crap job and refused to knock anything off the last 1/2 of his bill (I had to redo part of the work). The disputed amount in my case was actually much less than yours and the guy thought his lien would scare me into paying - it didn't.
After 18 months, I demanded he sue (I was refinancing). Of course he didn't (I had lots of pics as evidence of his crappy work), we compromised and the tiny amount I ended up paying him in the end went into his attorney's pocket. It was the one time in my life an attorney actually told me "Ok, you win". Of course nobody won.
Edited 4/12/2007 10:55 am ET by Thaumaturge
"file a mechanics lien if you can't come to some reasonable compromise - you have 90 days after completion.""Third, be aware a mechanics lien is not a law suit. The HO can wait you out and the lien will expire - usually in 2 years. He can also send you a demand letter which gives you 30 days to file suit or else the lien goes away."Are you in the same state as WillieWonka ?While all of the states have lien laws the details about who can file, how long they have to file, what kind of notices that have to be given, how and when to perfect the lien, etc vary drastically by state..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I don't believe lien laws vary "drastically" by state.
In any case, if the OP's job is indeed in PA as his profile suggests, then it's laws are almost identical to my own in IL.
http://www.fullertonlaw.com/PA%20ML.htm
Edited 4/12/2007 11:18 am ET by Thaumaturge
Well it appears that the law has just changed.http://www.fullertonlaw.com/PA%20ML%2007.htmIt now shows that you have upto 6 months to file.And there is no pre-lien notice required. The other required one before work finished.Some state require pre-lien notice BEFORE WORK STARTS.http://www.cab.ca.gov/pdf/lienlaws.pdfIn CA it appears that you only have 60 days to file a lien in some cases.http://www.cab.ca.gov/pdf/lienlaws.pdfAnd in a case like this there might be questions of when the job is "completed". And might require giving notice that work has stopped.And here is a rulling from NJ."The trial court granted AHD’s motion, discharging the claim according to this provision of the Lien Law. It held that the filing was premature under the Lien Law, since Thomas had not fully completed his duties under the contract. The facts also showed that work was not complete on a 55-page "punch-list" of repairs and improvements, and that Thomas had not issued the appropriate documentation that had been required under the contract. Based on these indications, the trial court discharged the lien claim as premature."http://www.connellfoley.com/articles/cons-lien.htmlAnd ND.http://www.lienlawonline.com/SamplePage/index.htm"What is the time frame for filing a Lien Statement? One Hundred Twenty (120) consecutive calendar days (not four months) after the last day that labor and/or materials are furnished to fulfill “the requirements of the project.†However, the last day does not typically include replacement items, periodic testing or service calls."Now it was over turned by the NJ Supreme Court. But there are enough variation on lien laws that what is done in another state is meaningless..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Eh? What's your point?
This is why I told the OP to see a lawyer? Presumably in his own state.
My recommendation of 90 days for filing was obviously conservative, since now OP has even more time to file. That is if his original contract was signed after 1/1/2007. No harm, no foul.
As for the completion issue, read your cited law "The work is complete when the claimant has performed the last of the labor or delivered the last of the materials required by the terms of the claimant’s contract."
"But there are enough variation on lien laws that what is done in another state is meaningless."
Uh, not quite meaningless right? In any case, I did not cite another state's laws, I cited PA law - albeit from 2006.
Shame on me I guess. :-(
Sorry to piss in your lien law Wheaties. :-)
Edited 4/12/2007 12:05 pm ET by Thaumaturge
Since you are not owed that much, you might get quicker results and more satisfaction in small claims court.
The contract was signed on October 31, 2006. It was for 2 phases of work. Phase 1 was completed pre Christmas 2006. Phase 2 was completed 1/21/07 thru 3/1/07.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I do live in PA. I'm not sure of the lien laws here but will check to see. I thought liens stayed on a home and were satisfied once the property is sold, so from I'm hearing I believe I may not fully understand liens.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
"I thought liens stayed on a home and were satisfied once the property is sold, "In general that is true. But I think that CA allows you to foreclose on it.But it also restricts then if they want to refi.And it puts out public notice. Might even cause the other builder to pull off for fear of not getting paid.But it is only to hold your position until you get it settle, such as small claims court or arbritation..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
<<I do live in PA. I'm not sure of the lien laws here but will check to see.>>
PA has a theft of services law, to protect small contrators. I did a lot of work in NE PA, Poconos region, back in the 1970s, and I used to carry a copy of PA's Theft of Services law with me. It was quite clear that anyone who is in default on a contract with someone like you is commiting a misdemeanor criminal offense. So it's not just a civil matter.
I just tried to find it on the web but it's not where I'd hoped it would be. If I were you, I'd check with the State Police or a local DA's office to see if that law is still in effect. It's pretty scary stuff for a homeowner to read, as I recall. I know that it made working in PA more attractive to me.
I don't believe lien laws vary "drastically" by state.
Then you would be wrong. Lien laws must be strictly complied with, so every variation, especially those that relate to time, is drastic.
So I am going to make a common Breaktimer mistake and hit Reply just like you did...
BTW, Thanks for adding so much value to the thread with your posting.
Since you so clearly desire a pissing contest, let's look up the word you're using.
Main Entry: dras·tic View ImagePronunciation: 'dras-tikFunction: adjectiveEtymology: Greek drastikos, from dran to do1 : acting rapidly or violently <a drastic purgative>2 : extreme in effect or action : SEVERE <drastic measures> - dras·ti·cal·ly View Image /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
Is the variance in Lien laws between states drastic, extreme, violent? NO!!
Is the variance in Lien laws between states material, significant, substantive - YES!!
...You can always tell a lawyer, you just can't tell 'em much. Have a nice life! :-)
2 : extreme in effect or action
If following some small difference between two states' lien law procedures KILLLLS!!! your lien and lawsuit dead with no chance of ressurection, that would be about as extreme in effect as you can get.
SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
From your link:
Main Entry: se·vere View ImagePronunciation: s&-'virFunction: adjectiveInflected Form(s): se·ver·er; -estEtymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin severus1 a : strict in judgment, discipline, or government b : of a strict or stern bearing or manner : Austere2 : rigorous in restraint, punishment, or requirement :
Emphasis by ed.SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
I will agree with you if you say that the difference in building codes between states is material, significant, substantive.
I'll agree with that because you almost always get a chance to bring the thing you're building up to code.
However the difference in lien code between states is drastic because you almost never get second chance.
Building a lien is just like building a house in that you have to follow code during both activities. The difference is that when building a lien you have to follow code the first time, not the last time.SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
willie.... i'm confused... how much money are you looking for ?
and why did you give him a credit ?.. that's an admission that you agreed with him
with all the pluses & minuses.. i don't know how much money you think you are entitled to
if it's less than $1000... i'd answer him in writing.... and file a lien
i'd be very reluctant to have a lawyer involved for anything other than a letter
you failed to manage your customer's expectations... not thru bad work..... but by bad communication..... non-standard conditions and their ramifications should be pointed out...
especiallly in this case...
you knew a trim contractor was going to be following you...... the chances of him being other than a jerk were slim at best..... it's almost human nature for him to come on the job and criticize the previous work.... guys who won't do that are in the minority... especially here..
he had an opportunity to increase his bill at your expense....
every criticism he found added to his bottom line...
sounds like your customer is a little gullible... and the trim guy is taking advantage of the situation
i wouldn't expect to ever see any money out this oneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I'm looking for the $3200 he owes me. He paid me the $513 in materials a few days ago and pretty much said that is it, he's done giving me money.
I'm willing to consent to the fact I failed to manage his expectations. Perhaps I should have communicated to him more than I did, I think I can find agreement there. He may be the variety of person that needs to have his back rubbed. In his own words he'd say to me "I'm just a dumb candyman, I don't know, I'm looking to you for answers." He sells candy for a living. He would have some minor concerns thru the project and ask me for opinion/advice which I'd give. However, it's kinda dumb to consider me to be an expert in my field and then when I explalin to him why I did what I had to do he doesn't believe me, that's insanity.
If I failed to manage his expectations then I'm guilty. However, I don't think that alone is sufficient cause for him to withhold payment. The job was done right and I'm proud of my work. In fact, it came out better than I expected once I got mired in the circumstances. As far as I'm concerned I did deliver to him what he contracted with me for. He wanted drywall installed over the stone veneer, I did that, and I did that in a fashion that would allow for the trimwork to look right given the fact there was a huge defect in the wall. If I had plumbed the wall then the cherry jamb board would start out at 17 3/8" wide at the bottom, and is it extended towards the ceiling it'd have been around 18 1/2". It was during phase 2 of the project (which was not part of my orig post) that I was able to balance out the compromise that I did during phase 1, thus causing the jamb board to come out looking beautiful at a consistent 17 3/8" wide and it looks dang plumb. As far as I"m concerned his wall is out of plumb "a little" instead of "a lot" and that "little" isn't even noticable.
I gave him a credit because I dont' want to work for someone who has made a decision they are unhappy with my performance. As such when he took away the trimwork I understood his concerns, I did not want to argue about them at the time, and felt it was a fair thing to do to let him out of the contract price. I didnt' have to, but I did to be nice and to make a concession towards appeasing his dissatisfaction. It's important to me in my business to see that the customer feels they got value for their money. If I stuck it to him I'd violate a conviction of mine. At the time I issued the credit in no way did I know he was going to try and stiff me with the add on bills. It wasn't until a few weeks later he stiff me. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
$3200... that's a tough hit
i had one like that about 20 years ago.. but i had just finished reading something about contracts.. and i had incoporated one of their recommendations
i had an Arbitration Clause
not a Mediation Clause.. and Arbitration Clause... anyways.. no way was he going to pay me .. and no way was i going to rip the whole job out and start over on the basis that i MIGHT be able to satisfy him
we went to Arbitration and the arbitrator awarded me half ... but i also GOT relieved from further action.. he couldn't come back and sue me for anything else
( btw... same guy came to me 5 years later to ask if i would help sue the roof shingle mfr.......... hah ! )
if i were you i'd ASK him if he would like to go to Mediation or Binding Arbitration... or i might pursue the small claims court.. file the lien now while you still can
the Lien might make him consider the Mediation or the Arbitration..... a normal court suit here would be a crap shoot (based on what you have said).. and it might take two years.. and then you might not be able to get your judgement satisfied..
also.. $3200.......that's only 16 hours at $200/ hour for a good lawyer
or 32 hours if you can find a bargainMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I guess one could argue that I don't have enough legalese in my contract to protect me. If it wasn't for the fact that I need to pay my bills and feed my family I might consider letting the money slide, chalk it up to stupidity to an extent, and vow never to let it happen again by having so much legalese in my contract that it'll take 2yrs to read it all, thanks to lawyers andhow they've crafted the need for so much legalese. The way I see it there was nothing wroing with old school,....man hires you to do job, you do the job, man pays you. I've always tended to think that most lawsuits have little basis, mostly is people trying to get something for nothing and not paying to get it.
I hate to say this but the warning signs were there. See while we were working there the HO and his wife consistently badmouthed other contractors. It had occured to me once that maybe I might be one of them in his view afterwards. They spared no criticsm of past contractors. but, I thought I'd be better than those "other contractors" that are shoddy. In fact it truly is one reason I went into biz, knowing I could find a good niche being better than the bad guys who sacrifice quality for money. I thought "as good as I am there is no way they can say those things about me" and yet here I am, on that side of the river. It makes me think he does this to all other contractors. In fact, another warning sign was the prior contractor up and left, never returned their calls. Of course I heard of this before we started work, but as a red flag I didnt' recognize it as yet as I figured well something must've happened to HIM. Now I"m inclined to think he just got the S%#ts of their BS and walked away. I'm in the positoin now of understanding why if so. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
whoa !
same thing with the guy i took to arbitration... he was bad-mouthing the previous contractors who had worked for him
but i didn't know that was one of the "seven deadly signs" that this was not going to go well
BTW... our normal Proposal is one page.....
the only clause i'm missing is one for " interest for unpaid bills"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
See while we were working there the HO and his wife consistently badmouthed other contractors. It had occured to me once that maybe I might be one of them in his view afterwards. They spared no criticsm of past contractors. but, I thought I'd be better than those "other contractors" that are shoddy.
I learned this the hard way two years ago. Almost identical situation to yours, 'cept lots more money out of my pocket. ( 15 grand or so)
We rebuilt a house after a tornado, tons of demo, re-side, windows, gut and reno two story interior, complete rebuild of addition, new roof, etc.
H.O. was a restaraunt owner who was consistently unavailable for jobsite updates. All conversations were late at nite, or over a fax machine or hurriedly carried out as he walked by on his way to somewhere else.
From the get go, way behind on payments, but they blamed it on the Ins. co. not getting them the payments, at one point we carried 70gs of unpaid. ( yeah I know, we shouldna.....) We felt sympathetic as they were out of their home, living in an apt. so kinda stretched the rules to keep the project going.
We stopped work finally b/c of unpaid balance, three months go by while we are waiting for the Ins. check, made weekly update calls to the H.O. everything was cool...
Out of the blue, it all blew up. Apparantly his BIL worked construction in another city and showed up one weekend and picked our job apart....
Every item was either something that didnt need fixing, or something we already had on our list to correct. Offered to correct any and all concerns. No go. Didnt matter that I had loaned him 70 grand for 6 months with out penalty.( his response" A larger construction co. wouldve carrried the whole job without payment till it was done." !!!!!!!) Didnt matter that I was willing to fix anything. Some people.....
I should of known though. He never had a good word to say about anybody. His neighbor was a snooty jerk. His other neighbors were sloppy rednecks. The farmer that wanted to put in a pig operation two miles away (but up wind!!) from his place was the seed of Satan and deserved all of the legal headache that our H.O put him through.
The list went on and on, former business partners, contractors, old bosses, everybody but ex girlfriends. I blew it all off, because.... well, pride mostly, it was an ego trip to think that I could succeed were others had not.
Well I didn't. With that kind of person I dont think you can. When someone badmouths other people as a way of making conversation, I run the other way now.
Ya dont need the headache. It is too expensive to work for free.
BTW, I would sue the pants off of this turkey. I would win.
Then I'd kick his ####.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specializtion is for insects. - robert heinlen
Well if anything your post gives some comfort that there are other guys out there who try to do the right thing, try to treat people with decent respect, show deference to their disposition, etc. and then have it backfire. Moreover, that you felt you could succeed where others failed accurately depicts my frame of mind as I heard the bad comments about the others.
I'm similar also in that the HO (male half) was always on the road. Hardly ever saw him, only on phone, few times saw him. He'd come home late at night after we left, never heard a complaint per se.
My big complaint is I wasn't given a chance to fix anything. I could have decided at one point to loose more money to fix the wall, I probably would a have, especially in hindsight seeing I'm not being paid due to it. But he allowed the other contractor to install all the trimwork, now I'd loose more money than my own money by having to undo someone elses work. Now I'm unwilling. The other complaints, even when I was on good terms with the HO and discussed the drywall corner "wave" he wouldn't accept my explanation. I mean, who wants a crooked drywall corner? When I do a job I have every expectation that the HO wants me to make a square and straight drywall corner. I can't ever imagine a HO asking me to make the bead curve with the defect in the entertainment center. I mean, if he's unhappy now that I didnt' mak the bead curve, then he'd be unhappy later if he removed the entertainment center and there was a distinct curve in the corner bead because I had done what he wanted in the first place. We're talking at MOST 1/16", man I can hardly notice it. That is how much this jerk is picking my work apart.
As to kicking his arse Im for it. Im mad and angry. I have a busy slate of work, I took 3 weeks of my time to do his work when I could've done some other job that I'd have surely gotten paid for. As a result, because I'm the only income earner in my family, we're struggling to pay bills and feed us because I'm due money that is mine. We cut back severely the last 2 weeks that we've been on notice we're not being paid (he told me on 3/28 he's stiffing me). So I"m for beating the snot out of him, I been doing this 10yrs, no problems, no complaints, until I find this guy. Incidentally he found out abouit me due to my truck logo/phone. Maybe I should be leery of those people now who call. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
There is something you can use from what you posted so far, and it is this; On the one hand he wants his wall absolutly plumb and square. That is the only standard he will accept for that wall, reveal on the cherry jamb be damned.
Then he bitches about the reveal being uneven between the entertainment center and the drywall corner, plumb and square be damned.
He can't have it both ways. In court that kind of duplicity will get him hung out to dry. So get a lawyer ( ask around, get a refferal) document all complaints, and contradictions in his standards. Then have your lawyer send him an official letter detailing all of the above exactly, along with the promise that you will sue him for everything he owes you, and everything the lawyer costs you, and all the real costs to you for the time he's wasted.
He'll pay.
And if he doesn't, eventually he will wish he would've
Just a friendly bit of advice.
When you prepare your list of issues and such, do it in a bullet point format. If you write a paragraph like your original posting, it gets very hard to follow. Maybe write it in an Excel spreadsheet with two columns: what you did, and what he demanded. Or like Woody pointed out: plumb & square wall vs uneven reveal."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yeah, I know I was longwinded on the OP. Just trying to get the facts out so that it is clear to any responders just what took place. I already have started the letter and in bullet format.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Woody, you know you bring up a good point about my postings revealing him trying to have it both ways. I never noticed it like that but you're right, in fact you're so right that it'd seem I could limit the entire dispute down to just those two issues to make my point rather than address each issue.
One of the other issues was he cited one reason he took the trimwork from us was because we used some white caulk to cover a few small defects in trim we already did. He has a sloped suspended ceiling. At the low end of the slope is a regular height door but the height was Higher than the slope. As such the door protruded into the suspended ceiling. The ceiling installers way back when created a boxed in area for the door to swing into on the 3 sides. This boxed in area then received the wall molding for the susp ceiling panels and the panels butted then up to this boxed out area, as by the time they got out far enough for the door to clear the edge of the door swing was under the slope. Well the HO wanted us to trim it out with some casing to make it look a little better. THe ceiling is white, as is the door, as is the boxed in area (it was already painted). We used white casing to case around the boxed area to trim it out. My partner sorta screwed up one of the mitres, it was pretty tight, but not overly tight. As such a small gap was there to which my partner filled in with some caulk. HO saw we used a little caulk to make the job look cleaner and said no way are we touching the rest of the trim. The rest of the trim was to be stained, requiring more precision which we could deliver and have numerous times on other jobs. In spite of my explanation it again was not good enough. I told him he took trim work from us without even seeing the fine trimwork we do and I was going to do the trimwork mostly. The trim aroiund the boxed open was a throw in. He asked for it, we were casing another part of his stairwell with casing, we had extra left over so why not. So I said I'd do the boxed area to use up our waste. Wasn't good enough I guess. The gap wasn't nothing big at all, in fact if my partner hadn't used white caulk I'd have been satisfied with it. It was supposed to be painted anyways and you'd never see, but again, to the HO it didn't matter. If we were allowed to complete our job I"m sure some of these "imperfections" he saw would be nothing, nor noticable. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
marshmallows!!!!!
on the mechanics lien be careful. In indiana its 60 days on residental work and 90 days on Commercial work. I just found that out last week after filing my first lien.
It sounds like you and the homeowner need to part ways. If he's unhappy with your work do you want to do more for him? Have a meeting with him Get what you can out of him. Sign a legal document letting him out of your contract and making it legal that he cannot come back on you and move on. You cant make everyone in this world happy.
give him a bag of marshmallows and tell him not to stand too close to the fire. That way he can have his insurance company build it the way he wants it and you get the satisfaction of hosting a bonfire at his residence.
Oh man, another great laugh for the day. I needed that. I also got a laugh from a friend today who called me and told me this one church which believes in animals being sacred has a "guest animal communicator" appearing this Sunday.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
This other guy wants to be the "hero" and pick you apart, The people see a way to not pay you, call there bluff and offer to tear it down and start over, They will not want to stall there job anymore, I hate these kinda guys shoot there mouth off while you are not there,
Man, that makes my blood boil. Having done one of those successfully the long, legal way, I'll never do it again.
I'll make the guy beg to pay, and on the same day. No more of that back and forth crap.
Forrest - tired of bullies
I'll make the guy beg to pay, and on the same day. No more of that back and forth crap.
Forrest - tired of bullies
Roar ! Yeeeeee hah !
Me- wishing I'd done it Forrests' way the first time
Several posters have advise you to get a lawyer. Well, I am a lawyer and I cringe when someone like you shows up at my office. Not that they haven't been cheated, or that their case is weak or that I don't want to help them. It's just that it would cost you way more than the 3 grand you're out to pursue it with a lawyer. Heck, it cost you about $200 just to have me read your description of the problem! ;-) Then there's reading the contracts, getting photos, drafting pleadings, pursuing discovery, etc., etc., etc., all at least at $150 per hour -- probably more like $250.
I usually tell these folks that they should just pursue it themselves in small claims court. If they lose, they aren't any worse off than when they came in to see me and if they win, they'll be a lot better of since they'll have cash and no lawyer's bill. The downside reality to that is that Mr. Homeowner will probably file a counterclaim and try to get from you way more than you are claiming from him, with Mr. Contractor #2 as the star witness. Do you like to gamble? If so, and you can afford the hit, go for it. Otherwise, ask yourself what you could have done to prevent this from happening to you in the first place and make double-damn sure it doesn't happen again on any job you get from here on out. More detailed contracts (what is, and often more importantly, what is not included in the bid) and customer sign-offs on the little surprises that pop up on every job go a long way to fostering contractor/client bliss.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Hi, Mike,
Yeah I know what you mean. In fact I pretty much already knew what you said as far as it'll cost me more to go after that kind of money if I hire a lawyer. I personally think I could win if only because A) I did the work and he'd have to admit to it and B) I can bring in 10yrs worth of very satisfied customers who are loyal to me and swear I do better work than most other guys they've had work for them. Except for a few issues in the 10yrs I've been doing this I never had an unsatisfied customer and when I was close I resolved it win-win with no skin off my back or theirs. In this case we're talking what is a lot of money for me because I am the only income in my home. I cant' afford to be out of the money, and so I have to gamble that I may wind up loosing more all the while hoping I do win. I think this guy will show photos to a judge and cross examine me and wind up looking like a cheapshot complainer thus persuading the judge to award to me. I know good work when I see it, I know work that is far less quality than what I delivered. Fact is I delivered what I said I would. If I miscommunicated along the way some of the challenges and my method to resolve them, fine, but that is not just cause to withhold money, or is it? I mean, reality here, if I went to the guy and said his wall was tilted he'd likely say "do best you can" instead of "well dont do it." I mean, he wanted his walls covered, it's not likely he'd say not to cover them in lieu of that fact.
So maybe I"m a fool or not. legalistically I've heard I could win or lose. I guess it really is a gamble. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Willie:
This thread reminds me of why I'm not self employed and don't like working directly for home owners.
Other than that, I'm just wondering if the slime dude's current contractor is going to get paid in full. Maybe go ahead, file the lien, and then check with the current contractor in a month or so and see if he wants to make it a trio in small claims court. :-)
Mike,What, if any, are the rules that apply to the loser's of a suit being forced to pay the winner's court costs/legal fees?Thanks.
In the US, the looser generally doesn't pay the other side's legal fees. There are some exceptions, but unless there is a contract or a statute providing for it, legal fees are generally not recoverable in the commercial context. (Provisions to pay the other side's legal fees are usually found in statutes designed to protect consumers like, wage suits, consumer fraud, and antitrust suits.) You may be required to pay "costs", but these are usually relatively small, i.e., the cost of filing suit. These generally amount to reimbursing the other side what they paid the court, not their lawyer. In bigger cases, where depositions are involved, court reporter fees can also be awarded. Most small cases don't involve depositions, though.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
willie,
it's small consolation, I know----
but pretty much the same thing happened to me 15-16 years ago.
" customer" still owes me about $900 towards the fence I built her.
2 small benefits----
A)the $900 became cheap tuition and the lesson learned has saved me MANY times that $900 over the years--- MANY times. you will get pretty good at spotTing these vermin now---------don't let it eat you up---just get to work and earn the $3500 on the next jobs-----------
B)- the woman who stole the $900 from me-- the thief who took food out of my childrens mouths ????????? 3 years ago she had to have a foot amputated due to a very minor household accident in combination with the fact that NO ONE in the neighborhood will now help her in any way or care for her in the slightest degree
just let the money go---don't let it eat you up----but watch how the cosmos evens the score over time---it's really a beautifull system!
good luck,
stephen
Yeah, I actually do believe in the "gos around comes around" principle. More oft than not the hardest part about that axiom of life is that you have to often wait a long time for it to come back around to enjoy its fulfillment.
How come no one would help her in her neighborhood. Was she a B**h or something or have a habit of ripping others off? Just curiuos. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
willie,
I told this story here once in considerable detail some years ago---- but I will tell a condensed version today because I will find it------diverting,LOL.
"customer" lived several doors away. she wanted a fence built---because she couldn't get along with another neighbor. I didn't want to get involved---but after i started my little business " customer" pestered me for several years to build this fence.
finally my wife said" i know ya don't want to do it---but why not just build it------she is NEVER gonna shut up untill ya do it.( BIG mistake)
After building the fence--she stiffed me.
AFTER i built the fence---4-5 seperate neighbors came forward to relate THEIR little horror stories with this person.- My resonse" thanks for cluing me in BEFORE I built the effen fense,LOL"
any how---fast forward to about 3 years ago. " customer is about 200# overweight-----she drops a can of soup on her foot---takes to her bed--foot swells up and infection sets in.---about 2 weeks later the one woman on the block who will still speak to " customer" notices she hasn't seen or heard from customer in a couple weeks-----------comes across the street and lets herself in "customers" house----- from the doorway----she can SMELL the infected ,rotting foot--and probably the soiled sheets as well
end result is---" customer" survives--but has foot amputated.
stephen
>>>>>>>>>>just let the money go---don't let it eat you up----but watch how the cosmos evens the score over timeBest advice given around here in a long time. It's only money. The karma wheel is in spin perpetually.http://grantlogan.net/
Karmic wheel spinning like crazy today---see thread in Tavern.
stephen
About eight years ago we had a customer who refused to pay $3500 of work that was tacked on to the job. We had taken the job knowing that other contractors had previously had trouble with him. We thought we could do better.
We learned that it had nothing to do with our work or our attitude or our contract. We had just taken the wrong guy on as a customer. Never again will we fail to call up the previous contractor to get his side of the story.
Could we have sued him and gotten our money? We could have sued him but the half of the $3500 would have not paid for our lawyer. We simply moved on and forgot about him.
Until 5 years later when I was working on his neighbor's house. He saw the work and asked if we had any time to do a few things around his house. I told him my name and waited for a reaction (My brother had worked on the first job.) He drew a blank until I said the name of our company. He then stuttered and stammered and said that we just had a misunderstanding. I simply replied that whether he was right or wrong we had no intention of ever working for him again. I tried to say all this with a straight face but I had a huge grin on my face by the end.
A job I recently completed nearly turned into a screwing for me, for similar amounts of money.
Lady starts wanting her demolition garbage back after I had dumped it. It said in the quote I would dump it and she never questioned it.......but come pay up time......she sees an opportunity to screw me down.
I got all but 300 bucks when I sent her own email back to her and another copy of the quote. Even she could see I was gonna mop the floor with her in court.
Like others have said, learn from this and get your contract and other paperwork in very good order so it doesnt happen again.
I would be awful tempted to rip it all out and tell the dirtbag the get 'contractor no.2' to re-do it as he was so fabulous.
Then have an upclose chat with 'contractor no.2' and let him know very clearly the sort of lowlife that he is.
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
Well, now this next twist is UNBELIEVABLE. The HO called me, on a Sunday, just been home from church 30 mins, said he couldn't wait to call me because of another problem he's now noticed and it's bugging him so much he had to call me now.
Before I explain the issue, note that the HO had a back porch that was an outside porch. Some years ago he hired a contractor to enclose it and make it a family room. In so doing he installed a suspended ceiling grid that followed CLOSELY to the underside of the roof rafters following the slope (this porch had already had a roof over it). The suspended ceiling was not installed by us.
Ok, now what he called about. Part of our $4K contract work was to shorten the grid of the suspended ceiling along the long wall of the family room to meet the new wall we had built. The new wall we built was built in front of the old wall, thus the need to shorten the crossties of the grid and need to remove the wall angle. This wall is about 30 feet long. There are 3 windows and a door in this wall. When we reinstalled the wall angle I put a straightedge on the crossties and marked where it touched our new wall. This ensured we kept in following with the slope of the ceiling perfectly parallel. We next cut the crossties shorter.
The trim contractor installed the trim around the 3 windows the other day (the trimwork that WE were supposed to do). The job is complete. HO says that the window on the left side measures x inches from the top of the window casing to the bottom of the wall angle of the ceiling, and that the right side measurement on the rightmost window is x inches plus an additional 1/2" wider. INCONSISTENT. When he called and told me he said "so now what do you think about that, it's bugging me, how did that happen, what happened did the old man screw it up and you didn't catch that?" I explain to him how I installed the wall angle. I then said it should be clear we installed the angle correctly because it matches end to end the wall angle coming down the side walls of the ceiling. So we didn't drop it, or raise it. He had such a condescending attitude. I offered to drop what I was doing, go over and put a level on it and prove it was level and in proper line. He says he doesn't want "you'uns coming in my house ever again." I told him I stand by my work, if I made a mistake I'll fix it. Didn't matter.
Tried being the nice guy here but I had had enough. That was the last straw. For all we know his one window sits a little lower than the other, which the windows were not consistently shimmed to begin with, we never installed them but we noticed that when we went to do the trimwork we'd have to take more time due to this. The other trim contractor may not have taken that time we would have. Or if his window sits lower then it ain't my problem. I reminded him that he told us the contractor that enclosed the porch years ago took a lot of shortcuts they didn't appreciate and did shoddy work. Again, the HO said he was done with me and hung up after saying that "they're going to trim the door tomorrow, so lets see what else pops up." JERK!!!! He assumes I make all the mistakes. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Man, go get him now - if it's as windy there as it is here, the neighbors will never hear a thing.
Forrest
Sue him for breach of contract. And please note, that a contract does not necessarily need to be in writing to be enforceable. Of course, it will be harder to prove what was in the contract (he said/she said sort of thing) but oral agreements can be considered binding.
This HO shows absolutely no possibility of working with you, and even if he did, considering the recent circumstances, you don't want to work with/for him.
Bite the bullet. Spend 1-2 hours with a lawyer for an initial consultation. Go prepared, and learn something from that legal investment. (if you don't use this knowledge on this project, you may be able to use it in the future to avoid these situations.) Then figure out if you want the lawyer to file suit on your behalf, or if you could handle it in small claims court. File a lien in accordance with your State's lien regulations, so you don't run out of time.
You might not get the $3,200, but if you come out of it with $1,000 (or even $500) ahead, which IMHO is conservative, that's money you don't have right now.
Sure, your time is worth something. But that is only true if someone is actually paying for your time.Pete Duffy, Handyman
pete... this is just gonna spiral out of control..
i would be consulting a lawyer only to make sure my liability would be limited
my gut tells me willie is never gonna recover any money outta this guy, so any time or money he spends now is good after bad
look, there are now about 5 parties involved in this
the guy who framed the arch cross-legged
the rat-bastid trim carpenter who doesn't know how to make trim conform to non-standard conditions
the guy who did the original porch and hung the original suspended ceiling
the chiseling , anal- obsessive Owner
and Willie
now we introduce the owner's lawyer,
Willie's lawyer,
and the "expert witnesses",
and the judge
place your bets !
no way is this gonna be a win for willieMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I really had to laugh at all that, serious as it is, though. You may be right, and seeing it in the context you put it it does start looking more and more ridiculous doesn't it? Wow, I'm just a guy who wanted to make an income off this project, do a good job and go to the next, like I always do. I just never really thought a day like this would ever happen. I'm always reasonable, so easy to get along with. I try to treat others like I want to be treated which is why I gave the guy $550 credit. And yet after all that it seems like I've compounded the situation some. You'd think an honest contractor would be able to work out something reasonable with a situation like this. I feel like an idiot to think I have been that naive.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
sounds like you have a good attorney /friend in your corner
show him this thread and ask his opinion of the final outcome and the lapsed time from now to when you might get a judgement ?
what can he get out of the Owner and the Trim Carpenter in discovery that will bolster your case ?
do you see the judge's eyes rolling in his head as all this is explained to him at trial ?
what do you think you would say if you were the judge ? ( me .. best case..... split the baby, both parties pay their own attorney's fees ...
worst case.. the Owner winds up with a judgement against you , plus both Attorney's fees
me .. i'd want to cut my losses, limit my liability , and move on.. so 15 years from now you can advise someone about how you learned to read customersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't have enough familiarity with law to anticipate how a Judge would react. My atty I believe would and has had cases like this so is in a better position of knowing my disposition in court. I'll go to the consult with my atty and go from there. He's honest enough to tell me if I'm throwing money after bad. It is confusing though, as I can't see how a Judge would rule against me in a case like this. I performed the service, I know I did it right and did it proudly and I'll stand behind it all the way. But, I know courts have ways of looking at things differently based on what I've heard. So who knows.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Yeah, I guess it could get that involved, but my way of thinking is just boil it down. Contract was between HO & contractor. Perform X amount of work for some $$ consideration, given existing circumstances. HO breached contract by not allowing contractor to perform, and by not paying. HO initially gave approval by saying things looked good and then paying before all work was done.
The contractor that built the crooked walls, and the contractor that came in after Willie aren't really part of this deal, IMHO. Sure, the HO may bring in the last guy as an "expert witness" or something of the like, but I'm sure judges have seen all types of things before.
Sounds like he has a lawyer who can figure it all out. That's what they're paid to do.
Willie has to trust his gut. If he thinks he performed, then he should stick to his guns. $3,200 may be a drop in the bucket for some and not worth their hassle, but for some people it's a big chunk, and too big to swallow.
As far as who pays attorneys fees, I know around here that usually each side is responsible for their own, unless there is a clause in the contract stating otherwise.
I figure for about 2 hours @$400/hr with a lawyer, he should have a pretty good idea of how strong his case is, and where to go next. If it's iffy, he can always drop it later. But I think to walk away from $3,200 without giving it an initial effort would be tough to do. And even if the judge says split the difference and pay your own lawyer, he's still ahead.Pete Duffy, Handyman
My atty is pretty reasonable on all his rates. Good working relationship with him. When it comes to doing business between he and I the fees are well reasonable. My atty actually is "close" enough to me that he's been very encouraging of me to go into biz for myself and wants me to succeed. So when he said tonight "we gotta sue this guy" then I know he's good on his word and that I won't get ripped off. We have a consult in 8 days as he's going out of town all this week.
My partner and I talked tonight. I guess we're going to get into the practice of photgraphing all our work, including showing a level on walls and ceilings to prove we're ok in case this happens again. PITA as it is, maybe this is what I need to do. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
<we're going to get into the practice of photgraphing all our work,>
I started that way back, just because I like "Before & After sequences. When it came to my lawsuit, my atty asked did I always take so many pictures? He thought maybe I had anticipated problems, but no, I just do that.
Forrest
Sweet, now he is harrasing you ? Take him to the cleaners.
Seriously, even if you break even on the deal, this sh!thead deserves the headache, pain and inconvenience of a lawsuit. People like that oughta be fried on the six o'clock news.
Sorry if I sound bitter. I am. The general public has no frickin clue sometimes.
Yesterday, we were building a garage on to an existing home that is unoccupied. We blow a breaker on the exterior outlet. Try to get in the house to flip it. Locked. Call the HO, who is retired and lives four f#cking blocks away. " Yeah, i'll be over ther in a half hour, forty five minutes, that should be alright wont it ?" Um, NO! So he shows up 40 min. later.
Four guys standing around for forty minutes. 4X40 = $180. Damn sure he wont let me tack it on the bill.......
I don't know if anyone had brought up this point but I one had dealings with a builder who could not get paid by a client. He went to the house with the intention of demolishing the extension he had built. The client paid up.
I dont know about PA but here in the boondocks, once materials are installed on a clients house the client is considered the de-facto owner of those materials.
You present a highly tempting scenario though..... <G>
It's only important that the client BELIEVE you are about to begin demolition.
Forrest - just wait 'til next time
i wuz in small claims 6 times, not all for me but as a witness, I was very surprized how the judge knew who was lying right away, The truth is a powerfull thing, But they do like paperwork
So uh.....the side you were witnessing for, did they always win then? I assume you were on the side of a contractor in some regard or another?If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Well they sorta kinda won cause most of the time although the judge was sharp he also seemed to not want to give one side all the marbles, Different cases but he also gave a tongue lashing to one guy A renter that left his dog there with no food and water. Another person won but still cant collect years later, I would go to small claims if i were you, just go to the courthouse they have the papers to fill out, I won once cause the people lived far away and gave up cause all 3 owners would have to show up.
Willie.... I tried to read all of your posts, i really did... but after the first couple I just started reading the first four lines over and over - couldn't get any farther - sorry...
Willie: i have been in my own business over 30 years and the # 1 rule is customers are not your friend
you can get along with them very good but try not to appear to want to be their friend
do not accept a beer off them or they figure the bill just got lowered by the value of a case (24) my answer to that is ill give you several beers and then raise the job price by a case for each beer
in all my years in business i have only got jacked around a few times and i have onlt signed about 6 contracts in all that time
i generally ask for a deposit for a new customer and if they hessitate i say " if you dont trust me i dont trust you so goodbye" i have never needed to walk
i have had people tell me it wouldent pay me to try to collect out of them and i just say i know but im stuped and am going to do it anyway
once had a guy try to stiff me for $47.50 and i spent $50.00 leaning him & it eventually cost him thousands when he tried to sell the land and a x wife found out about it and filed a claim ( he called me everything but a white man )
your guy probally got a cheaper price on the balance of the job and wanted you out of the picture is what i smell in this case
i currently have about 10 m of a customers goods on my property and she only owes me about $ 600 of a balance after 2 years & i have told her dont worry about the money ill just keep the goods 7 she dosent find it funny for some reason & she used to be married to a member of the hells angels
i figure people will stiff you contract or no contract if they are determined
if lawers are so good at collecting why dosent the mafia use them
when i smell a stiffer i casually mention that i dont like pursuing money in court instead i hand it to a collection agency i use and they drive 2 wheelers
havent needed to go that far to date but i could if needed
i have been told that i get wierd looking when i am collecting money as if i am about to explode ( i learned to collect money when i was a kid selling news papers & we were poorer than the local welfare types 7 dad would never chase any one who owed him 7 i swore i never would be the same as him )
I've been hired as a professional witness four times. All four times, the side that hired me was cocksure they were gonna win. All four times they tried to make me lie or at least twist the truth pretty severely . All four times they lost. Maybe they should quit hiring me.http://grantlogan.net/
Willie,
I stumbled on this thread during a search.
I gotta know what the outcome was.
Can you share it?
I went to district court in Feb 08. Lost there, toss up. The HO didn't win anything either. I appealed. HO countersued for $23K saying I violated the PA UNfair Trade Practices Act. It's still sitting in appeal, still waiting for a hearing before the aribitor. No movement in 1.5yrs.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
So you think it's dead in the water then?
Whole thing is kind of a sad story.
I learn allot reading thru these 'Continuing Education' pages. Saved me a ton of grief.
Thanks for replying.
It's prob dead in the water. The countersuit they filed against me was an attempt to quash my motive to sue. They know they'll loose and went out and got a lawyer to scare me. I'm NOT scared because I know I"ll win. The problem is in order to keep pushing it on my end I have to keep spending $$ I don't have to spend, so until I get $$ to spend it's likely dead in the water.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Wow I read this whole thread with great interest.
The legal system is essentially useless for contractors who get stiffed.
I just recently was stiffed by a new builder we did a remodel and a new house frame for. Never have I seen or worked for a more incompetent, clueless idiot as this builder. He's a professional con artist and he's been screwing people for 25 years now. I guess it was my turn.
He owes me $6,000.00 but my lawyer advised me it's not even worth pursuing because we both know the builder will lie in court, and he's very good at it since he's been practicing hard his whole life. It's a similar situation to yours: the builder (or HO) can spin things however he wants by picking apart your quality, and the judge could easily buy into it and award him the judgement. So now you're out your original loss, plus your attorney's fees, plus the stress, plus the missed work time when you have to go into court.
A baseball bat seems so much more simple and effective than any lawyer could ever be.
It's cases like this I lament the assault laws in America being so strict. I can guarantee that if the builder thought that a lunatic framer would suddenly storm in his office and smash his face through a window or computer monitor several times, I'd get paid.
But the legal system protects the scumbags and not the people in the right, and everyone knows it.
I know what you mean, Steele. The anger over this is greater than anything and the more as time goes on. That jerk is enjoying the benefits of his home, prob got a fat HELOC against the house to pay for the OTHER renovations he did to his basement, which I found out he was doing because I went by there a year ago on another job virtually next door and saw my competitor, who was there working, whom the HO referenced in the court hearing as saying I did very shoddy work. That was tossed as hearsay as the contractor wasn't subpeonaed to be there. This guy is a real jerk and I"ll prob never get paid but I'll try. The baseball bat is a very noble idea for such people. If there ever seens a legit case fo assault...... :) But alas I'd rather fight for it OUT of jail rather than IN.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Willie, I'm not going to wade through the 80 posts already posted but I will give you this advice.
Sue him. Sue him for the experience that you will receive. Take it to small claims court and learn your lesson. If you win, you learn something. If you lose, you learn something. In the end, you'll know that the process isn't so painful that you can't do it again and do it better too.
You'll also learn how good or bad your contract is.
You've already learned that there are jackasses out there and now you'll have to learn to say no to them. Saying no can be the hardest lesson to learn but it is essential to everyone who wants to survive in the often confusing world of contracting.
You don't have to sue. File a mechanics lien. Shouldn't even have to have a lawyer to do so. Just read the appropriate statute in your area. You may have to go to court to perfect the lien which means proving you are owed money for work performed. Once the lien is placed, you don't have to be paid but the property owner can't sell the place or get any loans done until you are paid.
Always seems to be a much better way to collect. Yeah it does mean you might be hosing the homeowner over because they may well have paid in full for your work but then its their fault for hiring a thief as a GC. As long as you don't mind them paying twice for your work, then a lien is the only way to go. Then you can let them sue the GC to get their money.