What to do with this part of the roof?
pixelfixel
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Finally ready for roof. I’ve had one roofer come out who says he’s thinking modified bitumen might be best for this part of the roof. We both know copper would be best, but I don’t think I can afford that. Any other ideas/suggestions? I believe he said he would put down 2 layers. of the modified bitumen.
Also going to have him install 4″ round downtubes. Possibly 5. There were originally only 3.
Thanks for your help.
Jim
http://foursquarerestoration.blogspot.com/
Replies
Do it in copper once, instead of other materials a few times over your lifetime.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"
Jed Clampitt
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True. Perhaps I should look into that at the very least. Thought of doing the copper myself, but don't know what it's like to work with. Anyone with the skills needed to do this in Central NJ please contact with a quote.
Your guy just left NJ a few days ago and headed back to Kentucky. http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=122643.69
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There are several threads on box gutter lining in the photo gallery. That's a fairly simple gutter. Bending should not be that difficult. Soldering the joints is the tricky part. All sides should be pre-tinned prior to soldering. Copper is fairly cheap right now. If you're not afraid to try it, we can help talk you through it.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Curious...What are you paying for 16oz sheet copper these days? Best I can find around here (CT) is about $4.25 when buying 1000# (50 sheet) pallets. That's for 2' by 10' flat stock.
I just bought 3K yesterday at $3.11/lb. Last week, I got 2K at $3.33/lb.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Appreciate that info. I just checked the local price, $4.42. I'm buying a flatbed and coming south.
Edited 7/29/2009 11:31 am ET by Mongo
You probably need to find a supplier that does more volumne. The supplier I use 90% of the time is about 80 miles away, but they deliver for a $5 fuel surcharge. Used to be free.Call these guys:https://www.guttersupply.com/p-Pallets.gstmlPhil is my sales rep - tell them I sent you. I can get pallets shipped free for $3.72/lb from them.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I truly appreciate the referral. Thanks.
I picked up 3x8s at Metro in Danbury last week for 75 each, thats come to $3.12.
thanks. I'll be looking for 2 by 10s, 3700 pounds worth.
Thanks much. I don't know the 1st. thing about installing it, but I'll take a look at some of the pics that you suggested. I appreciate the help! Jim
Thanks again seeyou. I was able to find some pics of galvanized that was done. If I were to do this sort of thing, would I buy the galvanized or copper by the sheet or roll? Also, I assume I would need some sort of bending machine to get the correct V pattern right? It looks like I should bend it to match the built in gutter, rivet it and then solder it with one of those irons. Is that the idea? Also pre-tinning as you suggested.I was thinking about how to do corners and it makes my head hurt.Jim
Heres a corner being done in copper.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=114552.1Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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would I buy the galvanized or copper by the sheet or roll?
Probably by the sheet. It's rare that the total girth of a built in gutter is less than 24", which is typically the widest roll stock available. You'll also have to buy 50' rolls which is a problem if you have 105' of gutter to line. Sheet stock is usually available in 8' and 10' lengths, so you can minimize your waste.
I would need some sort of bending machine to get the correct V pattern right?
Most rental places rent portable siding brakes.
I was thinking about how to do corners and it makes my head hurt.
After you bend your piece to fit, lay it in the gutter and slide it as close to the corner as you can while it still lays in place. Measure the distance between the outside corner of the gutter and the outside edge of your liner piece. Note that measurement and move across the miter measuring back that same amount at each bend. Connect the dots and cut an inch or so to the outside of the line and fold that inch thru the miter. Do the same from the other side and you'll have a good overlap to solder or rivet.
Walter and I will try to talk you through it. We have slightly different methods, but we'll get on the same page. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Thanks guys, that's great info. Looks like the sheet method is the way to go. Asked the roofer about doing copper and said the price with a new roof (asphalt - 50 year) would be in the range of $25,000. My heart almost stopped. So if I could do the copper myself now I figure I could save quite a bit. Maybe have him do the just the roof after.I saw how the seams were done in the one post done on a corner (very cool). Is that same method applied when doing the seams (lock joint?) down the length of the house? I assume so. I like slatemans idea with the steel rivots as well.Could I include the dripedge as part of the whole sheet as was done originally on the house? I assume so. As far as tools go how's this? Found it on the Joseph Jenkins site-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGjJTp44vfUThanks-
Jim
Is that same method applied when doing the seams (lock joint?) down the length of the house? I assume so. I like slatemans idea with the steel rivots as well.
Same method, yes. Walter (theslateman) prefers to lap his joints and rivet them (you must use same material rivets) while I prefer to pretin, lock and solder - no rivets. Both methods work fine if executed properly.
Could I include the dripedge as part of the whole sheet as was done originally on the house? I assume so.
It would be better and easier if you didn't, especially with copper. If the drip edge is a part of the liner itself, then you have to nail through it to secure the front edge. If you use a separate drip edge, the nails are covered by the liner and the lock at the front edge allows the liner to move when it wants to expand or contract and is less likely to burst a seam later. You'll have to cut your sheets down to fit. Use what you cut off to make your drip edge.
That heater is nice, but you can make a holder for a propane torch and your soldering copper that will work just as well for almost nothing. I'd spend my money on two soldering coppers, so one can be heating when the other is being used. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
You got any input here?http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
You're doing great . I can't think of anything else except to pad the new gutters when they rip off the slate roof later on , to avoid punctures .
We typically do the roof 1st to avoid that scenario.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
It doesn't sound like thats the way Jim's planning on doing it though !
If I were doing it I'd strip and prep the roof -- redo the guttering -- then install the new roof .
He's not doing slate again so only the demo is risky and then only if it's copper . Galvy can withstand a bit more banging .
Thanks. I've been thinking a lot about this roof and what will be my next step. It looks as though I'll be doing the built in in Copper. My wife wants to keep our slate roof which should be replaced saying we simply can't afford the $20,000 to replace with the 50 yr. shingles. I'm thinking I'll try my hand at replacing some of the broken slate myself and then remove the lower row of slate so I can install this copper underneath it. I assume that's how it's done? Hoping I might get another 15yrs-20 yrs. out of this slate roof, but I just don't know. The back of the house is the worst spot since it gets the most sun, but it doesn't leak. So far the roof only leaks in one spot which I have to get to to see how it's getting in.If I do go this route, I was thinking of possibly using copper ridges on the roof. What do you think of those? http://josephjenkins.com/store/home.php?cat=341Thanks again.
Jim
Jim,
I'd want to see more pictures of the slate roof before I gave more advice on whether repairing is an option .
Even if you left the roof in place and just relined the gutters you would need quite a few starter slates and full pieces to replace those that are or will break during removal .
Do you have access to salvage slates?
I wouldn't bother with copper caps on that roof just yet .
Walter
Jim,
I just went into your blog to look at some other roof pictures .
That roof is very tired soft Penn . slate that is worn out . You might nurse it thru another 10 years , but I think that would be unlikely.
20 grand to strip and roof sounds high to me for that roof . Have you gotten a second price or just the one ?
Walter
Thanks for looking at that Walter. Yeh, I went up and took pics of my roof last night and wow it IS in bad shape. Many of the slates are slipping down. I'm surprised the roof doesn't leak more. My idea of fixing it has come and gone.The $19,000 also includes the copper work to be done on the built in gutter. Don't know if that changes anything or not. Had another guy that gave an estimate 2 yrs ago of 8-9,000 with epdm rubber on the built in, but that built in was so much work for me I want to do it right. Is it crazy for me to think I can put a slate roof on myself? Do you know what the slate would cost alone approx? Since I own a scaffold was just wondering if I could do it a side at a time.Jim
Not to minimalize Walter's talent, but slate is pretty easy. Its dirty and heavy, but the process ain't hard at all.Just sayin.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I've been watching a lot of those slate videos on YouTube for days now. Thanks for the input Sphere- that makes me feel a bit better. Just need to see what the cost of materials would be. I'm curious to see what Walter says.
Where are ya loacted? Some of us don't mind traveling to new areas and work along side ya. Or teach a few tricks, and share copper torches..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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OK I'm feeling much better about this, now I just need to speak to my wife and write a list of stuff I'll need. Could either of you recommend a book about installing slate? The Slate Roof Bible maybe? Also a place to get copper and slate tools? I'm located in Highland Park, NJ which is located in the center of the state not far from Rutgers University. Hey, if some of you don't mind teaching me a few tricks I'm all for it! There's someone restoring a Victorian next door who would probably know a good place to get slate. I wanted him to help with my house when he was done, but he's moving to Kentucky to get away from these high NJ taxes. Thanks,
Jim
Wow, what a juxtaposition. I'm from the Philly area originally, and live in Ky now.Grant Logan here ( seeyou) and I work with each other and he just got back from NJ ddoing a copper roof for DocKelly in, NJ!Depending on your time frame ( like Sept or Oct) I may be headed to Philly to see my ailing Mom..we ougtta keep in touch if the timing works.I mean if I can make it a paying trip, we'd all be happy. I have all the tools and done much of gutter and slate.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Sounds great Sphere! Thanks,
Jim
If we can play it by ear for a little bit , I'll know better what my Sept. looks like. If I have to drive across the big hills any way, might as well hook up.I know the 26th is OUT ( wifes BD).Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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That sounds good. I've been trying to get as much info. as I can on all this before jumping into it. I've been at the Joe Jenkins site reading up on this as much as I can, and spreading out my questions a bit on their forum. I recently found out my brother-in law has an 8ft. brake, but as it turns out someone is borrowing it from him. If I can save myself some money there I might wait a month and see if I can get it then. I'll know more I guess in a couple of weeks. It doesn't have a cutter. I can get 3' by 8' sheets of copper for $110.00 at a supplier about a 1/2 hr from my house. It's 16 ounce. I don't have to go with 20 ounce right?? He doesn't sell 20 ounce anyway. There is a video of someone creating the drip edge right here on Fine Homebuilding. The link is below. It looks like the copper goes up about 30" up the roof. That would leave about 6" to create a drip edge. Not sure if thats enough. Perhaps I can get an inch or 2 more. I'd like to do Walters idea of 8' ft seams. Lastly, how do I figure out how much slate it is that I would need? What constitutes a square? Counting my slates would be silly right? Of course I wouldn't do something like that, ehem, but if I did, it might be something like 1,300 to 1,400. My regular email is [email protected] if you want to contact me privately regarding your fee should you be able to come here.Thanks-https://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/video/using-a-sheet-brake-to-bend-and-cut-metal-for-flashing.aspx?ac=ts&ra=fp
>>>>>>>>>>>What constitutes a square?<<<<<<<<100 sq ft of roof area. >>>>>>It looks like the copper goes up about 30" up the roof. That would leave about 6" to create a drip edge. Not sure if thats enough.<<<<<<<Should be plenty. I typically use a 4.5" strip for box gutter drip edge with a 1" face. A wider face requires a wider strip.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Hey, that's great- Thanks!
I'll send ya an email this evening , I'm just now getting some work lined up, and looking at schedules. One trip will be to NC for a quick job and then back home before my trip to PA.
I could also explain some of the technique where the slate and top of gutter marry and the role of where the drip edge will be.
[email protected] is me. Duane.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Jim,
I'm down here now at family of my DW .Just in Cherry Hill and Voorhees on Monday , but hopping on a train to Bean Town at 6 A M .
There are some threads here that will be more helpful than Jenkins book for the actual install.
Stortz in Philly has slate tools or even E Bay .
Maybe someone in your area knows of some good salvage slate locally .
I'll try to find some old threads on laying slate .
Walter
Thanks much Walter.
Jim,
You've got the right plan now ! you'll do a fine job of slating your roof with a little help from your buds at Breaktime .
Your location and slate selection will determine the cost of your stone.
If your roof is 16 sq.s -- the cost of North Country Black where I am in Maine would be around $ 8000 ,but will differ depending on shipping cost .
You're quite brave to tackle both the copper built in gutter as well as the slate roof .
One side at a time is a perfect approach for a one man show .
Walter
Oh ok. I get the drip edge now except for the lock part. "If you use a separate drip edge, the nails are covered by the liner and the lock at the front edge allows the liner to move when it wants to expand or contract and is less likely to burst a seam later."Does that mean I bend the drip edge into a lock like the seams, but don't solder it? Or am I overthinking it?
You bend the liner over the flange on the drip edge and squeeze the lock closed. No solder.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Will you also be replacing the roof at this time or simply pulling enough slates to re do the gutters ?
If cost is a concern you might use 26 gauge galvanized in lieu of copper .
There is a thread in the photo gallery from a month ago on soldering galv . metal .
I need a new roof as well. I'm going to contact my roofer and see if he can give me a quote for it the copper and galvanized. Thanks, I'll check into that galvanized metal as well. Jim