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Discussion Forum

What to put on door schedule?

CloudHidden | Posted in General Discussion on June 5, 2003 01:27am

Curious what you builders prefer. On my designs I include a door and window schedule, of course. But different builders want different details on it. Left to my own devices, I’ll put mfg, model, ro, type, swing…all kind of basic stuff. Most builders I work with are fine with that or even less. Some don’t even want the mfg on the prints! They want approx size and exact placement and they’ll adjust on-site. Fine if that’s all they want.

My question is about detail in the other direction. Someone just asked for things like number of hinges, hardware finish, safety chain or not, hinge or bumper stop, and other things I’ve never had to specify before. Is this typical for you? Not typical? Gotta say I don’t really care if they hinge or bumper stop or not, and the hours to figure it out and specify it are not built into my fee, which no one has yet claimed to be overpriced (another way of saying I’m not a $10/sf kind of designer). What level of detail do you like?

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  1. KRettger | Jun 05, 2003 02:41am | #1

    Depends on the project. If just a single small strip mall lease shouldn't matter much. But in office towers with a single management co. they want to be able to reuse all doors, frames, hardware, from one lease and floor to all other leases yet to be created, and so you need mfgs. exact specs.

    Also if "complex and extensive" door and hardware issues come up get all the documentation you can. When doing large churches and schools we come up against alot of continuis hinges, lots of different types of panic hardware ( some electrical,) lots of different types of heavy duty closures, ect... Often door supply companies will substitute one brand of hardware and not list that switch. It's alot easier finding out what goes where when there a couple of full pallets of hardware if you have a xeroxed copy of mnfgr. suite catalog for each type of hardware.

    I've seen Austin Commercial Construction jobs @ Charlton Methodist Hospital in Dallas TX. give extensive details for complicated door hardware. Thaught it was overkill untill end of all four phases of job when we tried to figure out what went where with all of the picked over, unboxed, reboxed, hardware accumulated from two years of building. This " overkill " of documentation was a god send for everybody from the installers to the project manager.

    Also by listing and counting types of doorstops ect. needed for full project you will be eliminating GC running out of hardware and then having to reorder right at the end of a project. Their subs HATE! having these call backs as it makes scheduling real tuff, and the GC also runs into problems getting the CO permit for the job if the doors are not fully functional and secure and it will take a few weeks to get the right hardware.

    Lastly, if you don't have enough of the right type of door stops the doors are going to tear up the walls, or visa versa depending of site specifics. Door stops are cheap, so somewhere in plans call for a small handfull of extra stops. On medium and large jobs a few of these will always get lost (left in tool pouch, tool box,) ect... and having a few extra of each saves alot of head aches.

    I hope this post isn't too long and wordy for you, and it's just one persons opinion.

    To give you the short version think of it this way-- You're the one doing the plans the first time, and who has the greatest chance of getting it right the first time. Once the plans and details leave your control count on Murphy's law kicking in BIG TIME!! The door and hardware supplier usually mix and matches and usually makes a few mistakes, the GC's super surely is not going to count and match a couple of pallets worth of hardware to prints and details, and who knows what persons will actually install all of this. So the whole situation can only go downhill from when it leaves you and all these people naturally are going to CYA by saying "damn architect " got it wrong or incompete on the door schedule.

    By your taking the lead in getting it right the first time you're not only CYA'ing your career, but you'll have your project come out with less problems more often then not and the builders remember that when the next projects coming down the pike, or when problems caused by you come up they may cut a little more slack.

    Some one who posts at BT has a sign off logo which goes "Excellence is it's own reward."   It sure applies here.

    Hopefully-- Helpfull

    Cork in Dallas.

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Jun 05, 2003 03:34am | #2

      Thanks for the thoughts. I shoulda mentioned this is residential only.

      1. Snort | Jun 05, 2003 04:18am | #3

        R.O. and swing (LH/RH and which direction) are all that's necessary. Obviously, an exterior Caradco with nailing fins has a different R.O. than a Huttig with brick mould. Interior door have pretty much the same RO's, in my experience. Bumps are up to the builder.

        If you know of any weird differences because of the manufacturers you spec'd, I'd definitly pass that information along. EliphIno!

  2. toast953 | Jun 05, 2003 09:30am | #4

    Cloud Hidden, who has the answers to your questions as to what will eventually be installed?? If, it is the client, on a new home or remodel/addition,, Please don't let the client (s) leave your office, until you know, oh, preferably all the answers. Changing out door hardware, ie antique brass, vs bright brass, or mill finish etc, from hinges to type/color door knobs, can be done,,,, But .  On the windows, as I'am sure you are aware, of not all RO are the  same, and a whole lot more in regards to the options on type/style/color windows, for at some point, some ones got to make a decision. For me ,it takes the thinking out of the equation, I like details, I don't like guessing,( kindof like flipping a coin) and I sure don't like waiting for windows or doors.  Good Post, Jim J  ps Stay with your own devices

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Jun 05, 2003 04:43pm | #6

      The GC has the answers. He knows which companies he wants to use to control his costs. For windows, I was asked to mark it as "Brand XXX or equivalent" so he had the option to select something else if prices changed, etc.

      Maybe it comes down to...how much detail goes on prints versus as schedules in the builder's contract? And applies to more than doors, too. I don't specify paint brands or colors. Whether the client chooses a sand or knock-down stucco finish depends on when they see the sample boards the contractor will prepare, and isn't on the plans. Lots of things aren't on the prints...I don't choose between standard and decora switches, or chrome v bright brass plumbing fixtures, or brand of synthetic stucco for exterior coating, or supplier of polyurethane foam. Where to draw the line? Which things should be a schedule in the builder's contract and which things on the prints? I've always followed the rule of I'll draw up what the permitting officials care about and what the inspectors need, and leave the rest to the client and contractors. I'll include on the prints all the things that would affect the engineering, but not the things that are more decorative (paint color) and could easily change several times between now and then with no cost implication. Do you like the designer to include more than that, and when is it too much?

      1. toast953 | Jun 06, 2003 07:40am | #10

        Where to Draw the Line, good point, not an easy answer for me. My experience, is the HO, is having to make many, many decisions, with impacts related to each  decision. Seems  to me in your case, ie the GC you are designing for, is well aware, so I'd do as he would asks, Brand X it is. Oh so many thoughts so many memories. Cloud Hidden, today, I do the really small jobs, in the past,,, well I have worked around the big boys, played in  their sandbox, as a carpenter not as a GC. As a matter of fact, never been a GC, though I continue to build in the residential field. Note; I admit I've done a few Owner builder projects, with me as an Agent for the HO. Again Good Post Jim J

  3. jc21 | Jun 05, 2003 02:54pm | #5

    Personally, I like the specific information, the more the better. I welcomed it estimating commercial work and if it's done right, it's really helpful. It's easier to estimate and quote jobs; you can compare apples with apples. Saves the headache of someone expecting Baldwin and they get a $19.99 Quickset.

  4. CAGIV | Jun 06, 2003 04:48am | #7

    I like as much info as possible, I can ignore what I don't need.

    Edit: as long as it is well organized and easy to read in a spread sheet format.

    Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.



    Edited 6/5/2003 9:50:01 PM ET by CAG

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Jun 06, 2003 06:52am | #8

      >I can ignore what I don't need

      But doesn't that risk trouble if it's on the plans, be/c what you ignore could be what the ho has intended and then holds you to? If I specify chains for door x or y, or 4-hinges, then doesn't that kinda reduce your options and force your hand?

      1. CAGIV | Jun 06, 2003 07:11am | #9

        Not sure what you mean by force my hand?

        If you spec'd 4 hinges on a door I don't think that would be something I would choose to ignore.

        I mean like manufacturer etc.  If a job is all pella for example it might be easier for you to fill out your standard form with pella labeled as the maker but it might not matter to me if you labeled each window or door as such.

        But if the certain windows were pella and others were Anderson for some reason it would make a difference, because pella now has a set way they want there windows set with this flashing "tape" to keep the warranty and Anderson has their way.

        Stuff like chains, and stops would be left to the description of the installer unless something definite was put down on paper and spec'd by the designer or H/O.

        But at the end of the day if the information was well organized I would rather have to much then not enough.

        It only takes a few minutes to read over the schedule to find something out of the ordinary and to take note of, but it could take much longer to go back and fix something that wasn't in there but needed to be.

        Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals build the Titanic.

        Edited 6/6/2003 12:12:15 AM ET by CAG

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