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Just out of curiosity, which skilled tradesmen/ subcontractors are you GCs finding in shortest supply these days?
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Skilled stonemasons and plasterers.
Gabe
*Mark, Ones that give a shit.KK
*KK,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*name it. joe and kearny are right. thank god the guys i work with are loyal.good masons are near impossible to find...
*It often seems to me that a big shortage is at the entry level in just about all the trades... The skilled folks don't have the support they need to be productive at their profession. No one seems to want to start at the bottom of the construction trades, this results in (short term) loss of productivity and (long term) shortages of skilled personnel. As a group, we need to find a way to attract quality personnel into the pipeline that will yield tomorrow's craftsmen while supporting the overworked pros we value so much.My solution? Nothing happens overnight, but small and large contractors should support their local and regional vocational training programs.My two bits... Steve
*I find that entry level carpenters want to be paid as much as the pro's. I ain't paying that kind of money for a man that I have to teach and hold his hand and supply his tools.........Therefore, there is a shortage of people learning to become carpenters. It's like they think it's something anyone can do with no or little experience.Thirty years from now it's going to be a real problem for the building trades. Thank God by then I'll be gone from this business. I'd love to pass on what I know, but I find very few takers.Ed. Williams
*Ed, I'm in agreement with you. My point, however, is that we don't have to wait 30 years... the time is now.In addition, the pros are underrated... if they/we were paid what they/we are worth, those at the entry level might (a) be able to cammand higher wages and (b) have more financially rewarding careers to look forward to.Regards, Steve
*Hmmmm... Let's see,the skilled tradesman that are in shortest supply, not necessarily in this order ( and I hope I don't come off sounding sarcastic ),-skilled-those with driver's license and/or car-those without parole officer's-those for whom I don't have to garnish wages for one thing or another-those who would like to work more than 30 hours a weekand on and on.Everyone wants to play contractor these days, but show me a young man who actually wants to be in the trades. Hey Ed, I've often thought that if we charged tuition fng's would place a greater value on what they are being taught. You know, like these bogus tech schools that line up gov't loans for their 'students' to default on.Tom
*Around here, drywall people are almost non-existant. The ones that are around have criminal records and are very unreliable.
*Yup.Also, I have recently become aware that slaters (REAL slaters, guys that can do roofs), can do very well. Canada is importing them from Britain; lots of work on older buildings.
*Ones that give a shit; and, know how to read a tape measure.
*Ditto five times. I currently employ 5 guys and of those five three have wage levies attached to their earnings. When I don't want to pursue a conversation with a potential employee I tell them we do thorough background checks and drug testing. Never had one come back for seconds.
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No wonder my GC seems so covetous of the subs he has lined up. I noticed in talking with him that he seemed to be helping them organize their schedule by helping them line up side jobs with other GCs when they weren't busy with him. He knows where his foundation guy, electrician, and plumber are working the next 2 months. After hearing all your responses I'm glad my GC and his sons do their own framing, roofing, and finish carpentry.
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I'm somewhere in the middle (15 down and 20 to go, god willing) of my career and am starting to have real misgivings about what the future holds. More and more often I'm being asked to undo and re-do what previous carpenters have hacked together. The rest of the time I have to straighten things out as a matter of course before I do my part i.e... make huge adjustments to frame before running exterior / interior trim. I think that one of the biggest problems is that EVERYBODY thinks they can hammer a nail and just jumps in with no thought to where or how it should be done. There are few professions with as many wanna-bees as Carpentry. If there were fewer ex-cons, drug addicts, drunks, wife and dog beaters, and general screw-ups in the labor pot, then the truly skilled people (who have worked hard to become skilled) would be in greater demand. Being in greater demand, we would be able to command a higher wage, and also attract better people to entry level jobs in the profession. It seems to me that the majority of young people in construction are those who literally can't do anything else. Nobody wants to take the time to start at the begining. I think that this attitude however, is a problem in our culture as a whole these days. As American unions have destroyed themselves with greed, they have sucked our trade guilds and their apprenticeship programs down with them.
I try every day to be the best craftsman I can be and I think that a large part of that is being a decent person but it seems that anymore, those qualities are neither valued nor rewarded. The only other trade I can think of with more degenerates in it is House painters. Curently I work for a company with ~35 people and it's standard operating procedure to spank the good people untill they are driven off, and then to hire more dirt bags for less pay. I grew up and began my career in the NE and in the last three years have moved to the SE. I'm wondering if the whole kick-em-in-the-head style of management here is an outgrowth of a culture of slavery or if the southerners still resent northern "carpet baggers" coming down and picking up the broken pieces.
Guys, help me out, is it like this everywhere? or am i just in hell?
Didn't meen to bring anyone down, the subject just struck a nerve and I had to vent.
Be Well and thanks for the input.
Driving nails with my forehead, Phat Bastard
*It's like that everywhere I can see from here; I'm at a similar stage in my career, and I feel very much the same as you. In fact, I've been discussing this with a few folks by email, and I'm probably even more negative about the future than you are. To sum it up: I think we are a t a high point, and these are in fact the Golden Years. There are still skilled people around, and the tools they have at there disposal have never been better, and there has never been more money in circulation to pay for work. In my area, if a cabinetmaker wants to embrace the cutting edge of technology (like CNC), and apply all the traditional knowledge, the sky is the limit. But the next generation will only know how to run the technology. And I really think all that body of knowledge we take for granted will die out in the next twenty years or so, or become so diluted as to be a mere shadow. The fact that all the trade schools I know are fighting off predators wanting to divert funds to 'the knowledge economy', or have already had the nuts cut out of their programs doesn't help.According to the demographers, demand for truly skilled people will rise. But I see more and more hackers flooding into the market (and there are threads in the business section dealing with this), and I don't think the changing nature of our clientele is being fully appreciated. For one thing, the internet is training people that you CAN always get it cheaper and faster somewhere else.Anyway, I've been accused of being too negative about this, so take this as a solitary opinion. But I started out studying to be an historian, and looking at the past and the present, and trying to predict the future, this is what I see. It's got me reexamining every aspect of what I do and the long term future of my little business.
*Adrian,I don't know that you really are more negative than I am. Just this past Thursday I was put on 30 day probation (leading toward termination I suppose) for my wonderful craftsmanship, great ability to handle any situation or chalange, and tenancy to tell the truth more often than management wants to hear it.Oh well, the good thing about being able to DO things, is that there will always be some market, some where.Besides, being too gloomy makes a fellow real tough for his wife, family, and friends to want to be around.Just laugh, shake your head, and go on and do your thing. Somebody will pay for it!Phat Bastard
*Steve,Amen.If I could charge what the top notch guys are worth, then I could pay higher wages to everbody including any one who showed an interest in learning carpentry. I think $45 to $50 an hour for a REAL carpenter is worth every penny.Ed. Williams
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Just wondering:
1. Are today's younger generation acclimated to the philosophy of instant gratification, i.e. "I want it NOW and with little effort or obligations."?
2. How many high schools today offer building trade classes? Are there qualified, compensated instructors available?
3. Is there a relationship of the last decade's demise of trade unions and their apprenticeship programs to the shortage of potential tradespeople?
4. Are work ethic values the same now as they were in the past?
5. Do consumers really care about craftsmanship or just the bottom dollar, superficial cosmetics, and wasteful volumes of square footage?
In my opinion, an area of competent trade shortage is in the retail lumber/ building material industry. There are too many red, orange, or blue vested generic clerks with very little knowledge about materials thanks to their employers (volume rules). Independent lumberyards are more in touch with the builder than "home-center/warehouse" mass market stores.
Passing on knowledge and character building attributes to young people , in my opinion, is one of the greatest gifts you can bestow. [character - the summation of one's habits] Please bow your heads now as the ushers take up your free-will gifts and offerings.
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Frank,
View Image
© 1999-2000
"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."
Aristotle
*Joe, that reminds me of a friend who had a kid helping him, who's last job was in some furniture factory. He asked him to measure some window cripples. The kid pulled his tape out measured the cripples, then scratched his head while counting to himself. Finally asked "how many sixteenths in an inch?"Chuck
*Hey Ed,You HIRING ?I'd settle for $25-30.oo/hr. b and being kicked in the head by management only once a month instead of once a day!Is that too much to ask?
*Joe,Twenty years ago I sent the new guy to measure a beam. He came back dragging most of his tape behind him with his thumbnail firmly pressed on the "little line". He became the long handle tool specialist ie broom, shovel ect.KK
*Chuck & KK,
View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
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Marshall, I gotta tell you this. I am a 26 year old carpenter, who has been brought up doing frame to finish. I am a full time firefighter (which is only 2 days a week), and a part time carpenter. Because I had such an irresponsible boss (one who did'nt always have work, or one who bounced checks) I quit and went on my own. I don't need to be babysat, but a boss who treats his employees as well as he or she wants to be treated is also a rare find
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Elevator Guys.
They're in short supply and backed up a few months in my neck of the woods, and they will not tolerate people w/o experience. But those guys make great money. Think of Florida, but who needs an elevator? All the folks that knows the neighbor has one needs one too, but that's more like keeping up with the Joneses
I spoke to a guy that's been working on residential elevator installs for about ten years and his comments really hit home. We install them and they just collect dust. LOL
Very true
*Drywallers seems to be the shortage here.. At least they are what hold me up the most.
*Hey Chris, I have to agree with you on that one. The construction business certainly has it share of flakes but the longer I'm in business the more I suspect that you will find flakes everwhere. I will mention that of my five current employees 2 have been with me for over 10 years and my lead carpenter who is just 32 joined us two weeks after his high school graduation. As a small construction contractor it is hard to keep the work coming in as steady as we would like but I always treat my people with respect and I feel I get my money's worth from these guys. The hard part really is trying to find reliable competent help when you need it to expand, and then bidding correctly to get jobs and make money on them. You sound like the kind of guy we need more of in construction and I wish you well.
*Joe, That sounds better than when they ask you if 3/4" is the mark before or after the long line in the middle.
*don't worry about today's hackers... if i remember right i was yesterday's hacker..and so were you if you're honest..some of them will move on to be tomorrow's craftsmen and some will run great businesses employing great craftsmen...just because today's generation in high school seems to be leading a cushy life.. doesn't mean that life won't happen to them just as it did to us.. and only the cream will rise to the top...they will rediscover , just as we did, the work ethic.. and pride and the techniques they will need to succeeed...are a lot of them getting college degreees and training NOT to work in the trades...so what, they'll still wind up in the trades because the one true constant is that people have to live in houses and businesses still have to have a roof over their head....and the dot.com millionaire will still have to spend his/her money on hiring the people who can designit/buildit/makeit/repairit/just like you're gonna still have to take your vehicle to a vehicle repair shop ...b life is funny like that
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Just out of curiosity, which skilled tradesmen/ subcontractors are you GCs finding in shortest supply these days?